I hate to even wade into commenting on this, as I'm sure it's already been said before. Surely it would be better for him to either: Hand over to another writer who has the juice to finish it, or,...
I hate to even wade into commenting on this, as I'm sure it's already been said before.
Surely it would be better for him to either:
Hand over to another writer who has the juice to finish it, or,
Just rip the fucking bandaid off and put out a statement saying that, unfortunately, the series will not be finished. Take the hit to the ego, admit that you aren't in a position to complete a project you began in the 1990s. Apologise to the fans who have been waiting for so long and provide final clarity so that you can continue creative projects that interest you.
People would be annoyed, and super fans would probably be apoplectic for a few months. But at this stage, even they have given up hope. He would no longer be hounded by requests for something he has continually said he is working on, and gets actively pissed off when people ask for progress reports.
He should contrive to be on a panel with Patrick Rothfuss when he makes the announcement that he will never finish it. That should take some of the heat off.
He should contrive to be on a panel with Patrick Rothfuss when he makes the announcement that he will never finish it. That should take some of the heat off.
I started the series at my friend's urging, who loved it and said "he'll definitely finish it soon". We did a book club for the first book and half of the second one before life got busy. I still...
I started the series at my friend's urging, who loved it and said "he'll definitely finish it soon". We did a book club for the first book and half of the second one before life got busy. I still haven't finished book 2. I thought they were great, but I knew once I finished it I'd have unanswered questions for a long time.
Based on what I've read it feels like he wrote himself into a corner promising a trilogy and using that as a narrative frame. I don't think anyone who is a fan of the books would be upset if he answered the series was expanded to 4–5 books to give him more room to wrap up the plot and not feel so constrained, assuming that's how he feels trying to write the last book.
Thankfully there are already so many other amazing books out there that I want to read so I can tune out waiting for it and updates on GRRM to once or twice a year when I see someone post about those books still not being out.
I’ve been checking periodically since i cursed myself with starting this incredible, forsaken series a few years ago, I think I’ll join you in this tradition. Surely this is the year it comes out,...
I’ve been checking periodically since i cursed myself with starting this incredible, forsaken series a few years ago, I think I’ll join you in this tradition. Surely this is the year it comes out, right?
I hope so, years ago people were giving the book a 10/10 and rothfuss commented on the reviews something along the lines of " i wish i could read the book you read, currently the book is a 6/10 in...
I hope so, years ago people were giving the book a 10/10 and rothfuss commented on the reviews something along the lines of " i wish i could read the book you read, currently the book is a 6/10 in my opinion." And while the comment was meant jokingly it also gives me hope that he is working on it.
Though i'm sure it's going to be divisive since it has had so many years to stew in peoples minds and people are going to have deep rooted opinions on how it should end at this point.
Like for an instance, personally i have really strong idea who betrays kvothe and what the final step of the story is going to be and i'm both excited and a bit anxious if i can get over my bias when it's not going to go the way i think.
I understand rothfuss has had a lot going on with his mental health but what really burnt my interest in reading the rest of that series is when he promised to read a chapter for charity and then...
I understand rothfuss has had a lot going on with his mental health but what really burnt my interest in reading the rest of that series is when he promised to read a chapter for charity and then never did. He fundraised money on the back of promising a chapter In 2021. That chapter has as far as I can tell, has never been finished much less provided to the public.
Similar to grrm. If you can't do it then you can't. . If your updates are delayed because of your mental health, I understand. But ethically to me that crossed a line.
I also feel far less enamored of the originals over time. In many ways I think the first book was one of the first more modern fantasies I'd read after reading my way through the library back catalog as a teen, and then after I'm out of college and in (and put again) of grad school I started reading for fun a bit more again so NotW was one of the first of that era I picked up. But in hindsight the flaws are more glaring. I'm still impressed by the rhythm/meter of the more poetic parts though.
I suspect I’m thinking the same character too. It would narratively track. Yeah I think no matter what fans are going to be disappointed, but I’d take a 6/10 book in the next few years over a...
I suspect I’m thinking the same character too. It would narratively track.
Yeah I think no matter what fans are going to be disappointed, but I’d take a 6/10 book in the next few years over a potential 9/10 book in a decade.
Or specifically the ones that almost died during an archaeological dig in Mongolia, which prompted them to finish their series as soon as they could to prevent "people pissing on his grave". I...
Or specifically the ones that almost died during an archaeological dig in Mongolia, which prompted them to finish their series as soon as they could to prevent "people pissing on his grave".
I have no qualms starting new Steven Erikson trilogies.
I think he wants to finish it, he just can't for whatever reason. I don't think he's given up on the idea of finishing, and he certainly can't move on to either of your suggestions until he admits...
I think he wants to finish it, he just can't for whatever reason. I don't think he's given up on the idea of finishing, and he certainly can't move on to either of your suggestions until he admits (to himself) that he's done.
I think his reaction in the past to writers block was to introduce more. A new region of the setting, new characters, etc. But since the series is pitched and built as a singular story rather than...
I think his reaction in the past to writers block was to introduce more. A new region of the setting, new characters, etc. But since the series is pitched and built as a singular story rather than a series of disconnected novels, that comes with the implication that they'll be wrapped up and concluded. So each time he's done that, the number of plot threads has increased and made delivering a satisfying ending harder.
Add to that that the one attempt at an ending, which I'm pretty sure did have some of GRRM's original plan's DNA in there, was solidly unpopular, and that's got to add to the fear and writers block of actually writing an ending.
As I recall the first sketch of the story was going to do a time-skip of 5 or more years and do flashbacks of how the characters developed during the gap. The idea would have been that the story...
As I recall the first sketch of the story was going to do a time-skip of 5 or more years and do flashbacks of how the characters developed during the gap. The idea would have been that the story pauses around when Rob and Catelyn die at the Red Wedding, Bran goes North of the Wall, Jon becomes Lord Commander, Dany conquers Mereen, Arya goes to the Faceless Men, and Sansa winds up with LittleFinger.
Then it was supposed to just pick up with Jon getting stabbed, Dany sailing for Westeros, etc. But he couldn’t figure out how to line up all the timings and plot threads and tried to write his way through it. Basically everything since a Storm of Swords was intended to just be hand waved over and Winds of Winter is when we were actually supposed to be getting back on track with the central arc. But it seems like he still hasn’t been able to untangle a way to make Dany meet Tyrion and raise a fleet to get her military to Westeros.
I’m sure it seemed like a good idea at the time, but in hindsight it wound up being a lot of pointless digression and a proliferation of additional POV characters and plot threads that need resolution. It’s like the narrative equivalent of tech debt, kludge on top of kludge. The series, of course, just gave up on trying to make things make sense of have things feel “authentic” to the characters. People just start teleporting around and some number of “good men” can completely eradicate an entire army’s logistical capacity off screen. So, of course, it sucked and people associate the suckage with what happened in the ending rather than the journey to get there being rushed and nonsensical.
I think he should do the above anyway. It will get the albatross off his neck. With it put away he might feel inspired again. No one is going to complain if he shadow drops a release after saying...
I think he should do the above anyway. It will get the albatross off his neck. With it put away he might feel inspired again.
No one is going to complain if he shadow drops a release after saying it’s done.
I’m wondering if it would be funnier for him to say it ain’t happening or if he decides to just drop “Winds of Winter” and it’s a 150 page novella that culminates in a Deus ex Machina falling out...
I’m wondering if it would be funnier for him to say it ain’t happening or if he decides to just drop “Winds of Winter” and it’s a 150 page novella that culminates in a Deus ex Machina falling out of the sky and resolving everything.
haha yes! Bran goes into one of his visions but this time he actually wakes up. He's just a normal kid in bed. We get a moment like the end of Wizard of Oz as he looks around and he sees his whole...
haha yes! Bran goes into one of his visions but this time he actually wakes up. He's just a normal kid in bed. We get a moment like the end of Wizard of Oz as he looks around and he sees his whole family alive and well, he quotes Judy Garland: "Jon, I had the most incredible dream, and you were in it! And Rickon was there, too." fin.
Kevin Smith had an interview where he was talking about how he always gets writer’s block when it’s time to write endings and the temptation is to just put down “and then a giant meteor strikes...
Kevin Smith had an interview where he was talking about how he always gets writer’s block when it’s time to write endings and the temptation is to just put down “and then a giant meteor strikes the Earth and everyone dies.” You can kind of see how he had to walk himself back from that in the endings to Dogma and Red State I think where there is sort of a Deus ex machina that arrives and kills everybody but he ends up creating a story framework for it to do so that makes sense.
I agree. As a reader who is no longer invested in the series being finished, I watched him weave new complexity into the story with each volume. I'm not sure it's possible to finish it. He's got...
I agree.
As a reader who is no longer invested in the series being finished, I watched him weave new complexity into the story with each volume. I'm not sure it's possible to finish it. He's got so many hanging threads out there.
Just on your last point which is tangential: I think most curses are self inflicted. They are a manifestation of a mismatch between the person you perceive yourself to be and reality, and about...
Just on your last point which is tangential: I think most curses are self inflicted. They are a manifestation of a mismatch between the person you perceive yourself to be and reality, and about not being able to deal with the difference.
I haven't read the series, but I'd hope for such a thing to happen and end the blight of series books. I've read plenty of series, but I'm tired of them. I hate picking up a new book that sounds...
I haven't read the series, but I'd hope for such a thing to happen and end the blight of series books.
I've read plenty of series, but I'm tired of them. I hate picking up a new book that sounds interesting, only to notice on it, "book 6 of the such and such series."
Just give me one tight novel that I don't have to invest my life into. I like to bounce around from genre to genre as I read, not be stuck on one particular series one after the other, not try to remember what is happening and why, etc, etc.
Maybe it's a function of how I read, but I'm just so tired of series books.
I wish he'd hand it over to James S.A. Corey to finish. They (it's a pen name for 2 people) were his assistants for a while, and they've successfully completed an amazing series (The Expanse) and...
I wish he'd hand it over to James S.A. Corey to finish. They (it's a pen name for 2 people) were his assistants for a while, and they've successfully completed an amazing series (The Expanse) and started a new one (The Mercy of Gods). They're phenomenal writers and I think they'd do a great job of finishing ASoIaF (Although I'd be disappointed to see their own projects delayed by them having to finish grrm's project lol. But I'd really like to see it finished competently, and I think they'd do a good job.)
I have zero evidence for this, have done no research, and it's probably wrong, but I've long wondered if GRRM hit his wall whenever he stopped working with James SA Corey. The expanse series is...
I have zero evidence for this, have done no research, and it's probably wrong, but I've long wondered if GRRM hit his wall whenever he stopped working with James SA Corey. The expanse series is very nearly as narratively complicated as Game of Thrones and they were able to finish 8 long books in, what, 8 years?
Edit: martin's last book published in 2011. The first book of the expanse? Published 2011. I REST MY CASE.
It'd be interesting, though their styles feel different enough that I think it would be jarring and I'm not sure that I'd enjoy it as GoT. SA Corey's writing feels very lucid and clear to me, like...
It'd be interesting, though their styles feel different enough that I think it would be jarring and I'm not sure that I'd enjoy it as GoT.
SA Corey's writing feels very lucid and clear to me, like a filtered beverage. GRRM's feels more hazy and organic, like an unfiltered beer or wine.
Would that be better for him? What advantage does he gain from doing either? Maybe it’ll curb some hate mail, but nothing will stop you from getting hate mail. He’d just get hate mail for other...
Would that be better for him? What advantage does he gain from doing either? Maybe it’ll curb some hate mail, but nothing will stop you from getting hate mail. He’d just get hate mail for other reasons.
He’s more than capable of working on other creative projects regardless of if the series is in limbo or canned.
There's something to be said for definitively, publicly ending a project and declaring you're moving on. It feels silly to grieve an unwritten book, but there's something to be said for getting an...
There's something to be said for definitively, publicly ending a project and declaring you're moving on. It feels silly to grieve an unwritten book, but there's something to be said for getting an official death certificate, if that makes sense?
Deciding that something simply won't happen and finally giving up has a certain zen. Sharing that sentiment with fans would be sad and disappointing, but it might provide closure to some.
Nope. He's made arrangements for all his notes to be destroyed when he dies, he wants no zombie franchise whatsoever even if it denies any closure to the readers.
Nope. He's made arrangements for all his notes to be destroyed when he dies, he wants no zombie franchise whatsoever even if it denies any closure to the readers.
The word of the previous king can be easily torn up by the new king. Just like when Eddard Stark tried to defend himself with Robert's last act as a king on a flimsy piece of paper. So nothing is...
The word of the previous king can be easily torn up by the new king. Just like when Eddard Stark tried to defend himself with Robert's last act as a king on a flimsy piece of paper. So nothing is out of question.
I can sympathize with it and it doesn't seem too strange to me. Even putting aside the monetary reasons for doing so, he clearly has a love for the world he's built. I'd venture even more so than...
I can sympathize with it and it doesn't seem too strange to me. Even putting aside the monetary reasons for doing so, he clearly has a love for the world he's built. I'd venture even more so than the characters in the main series. I don't imagine it's like he's tired of the world or wants a different one, more that WoW is utterly overwhelming every time he reapproaches it.
ASOIAF's story has gotten hugely complicated in the last book, spanning multiple continents, several thousand pages, and so many separate character's perspectives each with their own subplots. It's so complex that the TV show had to just abandon some of the more challenging characters introduced in the latest books. Being able to pick up all those storylines and manage all that detail to result in a novel that brings them all to satisfying (near) completion is the harrowing part of writing WoW, not the world it's set in.
Like Dunk and Egg has such a narrow scope in comparison, it's a bumbling hedge knight happening into fairly routine events that play little footnotes in the larger world's political intrigue. Even Fire & Blood, though it spans such long periods and has all the kingdom at play, is much more focused than the mainline books. Plus, F&B is more like a serial anthology than a single story so much less challenging to keep a sustained focus on and regain context after you're distracted for several months.
The TV projects are probably mostly about money and what I can only imagine is a huge thrill.
I mean, a consistent read on the ending of the HBO series (which will probably never be confirmed) is that GRRM has five and a half books and a plot outline, and the books don't match up with the...
I mean, a consistent read on the ending of the HBO series (which will probably never be confirmed) is that GRRM has five and a half books and a plot outline, and the books don't match up with the outline anymore, but TV shows have production schedules, and so they just… produced the books and then the outline, continuity failures be damned. Not much the showrunners could do about that unless they were up to the task of doing Martin's job for him and tying up the book plots into the intended conclusion.
(I mean, I am strongly given to understand—having not watched and having no interest in watching any of the show past season 1—that they did a piss-poor job of even that. But I certainly don't think Martin is an incompetent writer, and if the amount of time he's put in to trying to wrap this thing up hasn't gotten there, it's definitely not going to happen cleanly in a TV show writing schedule.)
The showrunners had been past the ending of the published books for quite a while, and while it's widely regarded that the later seasons are worse for it, the final season was a catastrophe of a...
The showrunners had been past the ending of the published books for quite a while, and while it's widely regarded that the later seasons are worse for it, the final season was a catastrophe of a different magnitude. Because it was so much worse than even the immediately preceding seasons, which also were written without new books from Martin to go on, it doesn't make sense to blame the ending's failure on that. It's very confirmed that the show ended when it did because the showrunners wanted to go on and make the next Star Wars movie -- there are quotes from Martin and others involved in the production explicitly saying that they could've gone on for many more seasons, but DnD wanted to end it and move on. A huge portion of the problems in season 8 are directly the result of trying to wrap up so much plot in a single season -- the pacing , for instance, is awful for this reason.
Damn, my dude, just hand one of the reins over to Brandon Sanderson. He's not the best author in terms of linguistic beauty or compelling characterization, but of about equal quality to Martin;...
Damn, my dude, just hand one of the reins over to Brandon Sanderson. He's not the best author in terms of linguistic beauty or compelling characterization, but of about equal quality to Martin; but he's productive as hell, superhumanly efficient, and well-proven at handling sprawling plotlines, casts, and settings. Bet he could figure your shit out. Give him co-author credit and tie this shit up before you croak.
I’d like to be a bit more clear that I believe Sanderson finds this an insanely insulting request. Not because he has and issue with Martin but rather the opposite and feels that it’s absurd how...
I’d like to be a bit more clear that I believe Sanderson finds this an insanely insulting request. Not because he has and issue with Martin but rather the opposite and feels that it’s absurd how people are behaving over it. If I remember I’ll look for a source. This was some time ago
I tend to agree with him on that. I'll be happy for it to come out if it comes out, but I'm not gonna demand GRRM publicly give up or hand it off to another writer. I enjoy the books we have, and...
I tend to agree with him on that. I'll be happy for it to come out if it comes out, but I'm not gonna demand GRRM publicly give up or hand it off to another writer. I enjoy the books we have, and if that's all there is that doesn't ruin them for me.
I am not so sure about Sanderson being the right one in that situation. His style of fantasy was right for WoT, but I think Martin and Sanderson have very different styles of writing and the type...
I am not so sure about Sanderson being the right one in that situation. His style of fantasy was right for WoT, but I think Martin and Sanderson have very different styles of writing and the type of fantasy they write. Stephen R. Donaldson perhaps?
I also like this solution. I likely do not read the rest of GoT if GRRM finished it (rave reviews not withstanding). I’d definitely read it if Sanderson finished it.
I also like this solution. I likely do not read the rest of GoT if GRRM finished it (rave reviews not withstanding). I’d definitely read it if Sanderson finished it.
Honestly it might not be the worst thing to just have Sanderson give him a rough draft/treatment for him to throw away. I’ve been doing that with AI stuff lately where I’ll have it write my a few...
Honestly it might not be the worst thing to just have Sanderson give him a rough draft/treatment for him to throw away. I’ve been doing that with AI stuff lately where I’ll have it write my a few paragraphs of a thing based on vague bullet points I’ve given it and then I just continue writing and then end up deleting and revising the initial prompt paragraphs. It’s good for “priming the pump.”
That's a good use of it. maybe GRRM should write the Spring book first so he has a target. I feel for the guy --- he's in an impossible situation. Unless the books are absolutely mind-blowing,...
That's a good use of it.
maybe GRRM should write the Spring book first so he has a target. I feel for the guy --- he's in an impossible situation. Unless the books are absolutely mind-blowing, he'll just get dragged through it all again. Maybe George needs to do ayahuasca.
That may actually be a good idea. I've always felt that the reason he manages to surprise his readers by switching perspective/POV charactets and not having this one invincible main character is...
maybe GRRM should write the Spring book first so he has a target.
That may actually be a good idea. I've always felt that the reason he manages to surprise his readers by switching perspective/POV charactets and not having this one invincible main character is the basically the same reason he's unable to finish the series: Instead of planning the story with an overarching goal in mind, he surprises himself by taking unexpected turns and opening ever more storylines. Maybe a bit of planning would help him. Decide where you wanna end up first, and fill the gaps later, instead of the other way around.
I find it hard to believe that the TV series had the ending he was planning. It would even be fine to have Arya do her thing, but he definitely needs to do something more with Bran. For me, I...
I find it hard to believe that the TV series had the ending he was planning. It would even be fine to have Arya do her thing, but he definitely needs to do something more with Bran.
For me, I really wanted Bran to warg into... all of the beasts of the earth and have a Woodland Critter Christmas death for Iceman.
Wow, back in 2018 I made a joke about GRRM writing slowly (at the 57m mark) to a couple of my favorite authors and Mary Robinette Kowal said, "When you see a writer who is not bringing a book out...
Wow, back in 2018 I made a joke about GRRM writing slowly (at the 57m mark) to a couple of my favorite authors and Mary Robinette Kowal said, "When you see a writer who is not bringing a book out [...] there is almost always something else going on in their life that is slowing that down, because every writer wants to hit their deadlines, every writer wants to be finished with the book, and the worst thing you can do to them is say, 'Can you write faster?' because they already are not writing faster."
Imagine what the "something else" is and then you throw a successful HBO show on top of it followed by the relentless hounding from the fans.
I experience the curse very indirectly as whenever I post my walking videos, people say I look a bit like him, and so I get shit like "When are you going to finish those books?" lol
I experience the curse very indirectly as whenever I post my walking videos, people say I look a bit like him, and so I get shit like "When are you going to finish those books?" lol
Funny timing, I was just wondering about this book in the shower just now. Good to see it’s business as usual and can’t expect it to ever come out! It’s such a shame because after how bad season 8...
Funny timing, I was just wondering about this book in the shower just now. Good to see it’s business as usual and can’t expect it to ever come out!
It’s such a shame because after how bad season 8 of the show was, I kidded myself into thinking “at least I’ll have the books” lmao
I feel the same way! Season 8 was such a disaster that I choose to end the series at Olenna's mic drop. I held out hope that the next book would redeem the mess that was the show after that point.
I feel the same way! Season 8 was such a disaster that I choose to end the series at Olenna's mic drop. I held out hope that the next book would redeem the mess that was the show after that point.
I hate to even wade into commenting on this, as I'm sure it's already been said before.
Surely it would be better for him to either:
Hand over to another writer who has the juice to finish it, or,
Just rip the fucking bandaid off and put out a statement saying that, unfortunately, the series will not be finished. Take the hit to the ego, admit that you aren't in a position to complete a project you began in the 1990s. Apologise to the fans who have been waiting for so long and provide final clarity so that you can continue creative projects that interest you.
People would be annoyed, and super fans would probably be apoplectic for a few months. But at this stage, even they have given up hope. He would no longer be hounded by requests for something he has continually said he is working on, and gets actively pissed off when people ask for progress reports.
Most curses I'm aware of aren't self-inflicted.
He should contrive to be on a panel with Patrick Rothfuss when he makes the announcement that he will never finish it. That should take some of the heat off.
Don't say that, i'm still waiting for doors of stone. It has become my new years tradition to check if there has been any news about it.
I started the series at my friend's urging, who loved it and said "he'll definitely finish it soon". We did a book club for the first book and half of the second one before life got busy. I still haven't finished book 2. I thought they were great, but I knew once I finished it I'd have unanswered questions for a long time.
Based on what I've read it feels like he wrote himself into a corner promising a trilogy and using that as a narrative frame. I don't think anyone who is a fan of the books would be upset if he answered the series was expanded to 4–5 books to give him more room to wrap up the plot and not feel so constrained, assuming that's how he feels trying to write the last book.
Thankfully there are already so many other amazing books out there that I want to read so I can tune out waiting for it and updates on GRRM to once or twice a year when I see someone post about those books still not being out.
I’ve been checking periodically since i cursed myself with starting this incredible, forsaken series a few years ago, I think I’ll join you in this tradition. Surely this is the year it comes out, right?
I hope so, years ago people were giving the book a 10/10 and rothfuss commented on the reviews something along the lines of " i wish i could read the book you read, currently the book is a 6/10 in my opinion." And while the comment was meant jokingly it also gives me hope that he is working on it.
Though i'm sure it's going to be divisive since it has had so many years to stew in peoples minds and people are going to have deep rooted opinions on how it should end at this point.
Like for an instance, personally i have really strong idea who betrays kvothe and what the final step of the story is going to be and i'm both excited and a bit anxious if i can get over my bias when it's not going to go the way i think.
I understand rothfuss has had a lot going on with his mental health but what really burnt my interest in reading the rest of that series is when he promised to read a chapter for charity and then never did. He fundraised money on the back of promising a chapter In 2021. That chapter has as far as I can tell, has never been finished much less provided to the public.
Similar to grrm. If you can't do it then you can't. . If your updates are delayed because of your mental health, I understand. But ethically to me that crossed a line.
I also feel far less enamored of the originals over time. In many ways I think the first book was one of the first more modern fantasies I'd read after reading my way through the library back catalog as a teen, and then after I'm out of college and in (and put again) of grad school I started reading for fun a bit more again so NotW was one of the first of that era I picked up. But in hindsight the flaws are more glaring. I'm still impressed by the rhythm/meter of the more poetic parts though.
I suspect I’m thinking the same character too. It would narratively track.
Yeah I think no matter what fans are going to be disappointed, but I’d take a 6/10 book in the next few years over a potential 9/10 book in a decade.
Between those two authors, I no longer start a series that isn't already finished. Fool me once...
The real solution is reading the incredibly prolific authors - Seanan McGuire is one of my faves and she publishes like 3 novels a year.... Minimum
Or specifically the ones that almost died during an archaeological dig in Mongolia, which prompted them to finish their series as soon as they could to prevent "people pissing on his grave".
I have no qualms starting new Steven Erikson trilogies.
I think he wants to finish it, he just can't for whatever reason. I don't think he's given up on the idea of finishing, and he certainly can't move on to either of your suggestions until he admits (to himself) that he's done.
I think his reaction in the past to writers block was to introduce more. A new region of the setting, new characters, etc. But since the series is pitched and built as a singular story rather than a series of disconnected novels, that comes with the implication that they'll be wrapped up and concluded. So each time he's done that, the number of plot threads has increased and made delivering a satisfying ending harder.
Add to that that the one attempt at an ending, which I'm pretty sure did have some of GRRM's original plan's DNA in there, was solidly unpopular, and that's got to add to the fear and writers block of actually writing an ending.
As I recall the first sketch of the story was going to do a time-skip of 5 or more years and do flashbacks of how the characters developed during the gap. The idea would have been that the story pauses around when Rob and Catelyn die at the Red Wedding, Bran goes North of the Wall, Jon becomes Lord Commander, Dany conquers Mereen, Arya goes to the Faceless Men, and Sansa winds up with LittleFinger.
Then it was supposed to just pick up with Jon getting stabbed, Dany sailing for Westeros, etc. But he couldn’t figure out how to line up all the timings and plot threads and tried to write his way through it. Basically everything since a Storm of Swords was intended to just be hand waved over and Winds of Winter is when we were actually supposed to be getting back on track with the central arc. But it seems like he still hasn’t been able to untangle a way to make Dany meet Tyrion and raise a fleet to get her military to Westeros.
I’m sure it seemed like a good idea at the time, but in hindsight it wound up being a lot of pointless digression and a proliferation of additional POV characters and plot threads that need resolution. It’s like the narrative equivalent of tech debt, kludge on top of kludge. The series, of course, just gave up on trying to make things make sense of have things feel “authentic” to the characters. People just start teleporting around and some number of “good men” can completely eradicate an entire army’s logistical capacity off screen. So, of course, it sucked and people associate the suckage with what happened in the ending rather than the journey to get there being rushed and nonsensical.
I think he should do the above anyway. It will get the albatross off his neck. With it put away he might feel inspired again.
No one is going to complain if he shadow drops a release after saying it’s done.
I’m wondering if it would be funnier for him to say it ain’t happening or if he decides to just drop “Winds of Winter” and it’s a 150 page novella that culminates in a Deus ex Machina falling out of the sky and resolving everything.
haha yes! Bran goes into one of his visions but this time he actually wakes up. He's just a normal kid in bed. We get a moment like the end of Wizard of Oz as he looks around and he sees his whole family alive and well, he quotes Judy Garland: "Jon, I had the most incredible dream, and you were in it! And Rickon was there, too." fin.
Kevin Smith had an interview where he was talking about how he always gets writer’s block when it’s time to write endings and the temptation is to just put down “and then a giant meteor strikes the Earth and everyone dies.” You can kind of see how he had to walk himself back from that in the endings to Dogma and Red State I think where there is sort of a Deus ex machina that arrives and kills everybody but he ends up creating a story framework for it to do so that makes sense.
GoT is technically sci-fi, right?
Reveal that the dragons are aliens. They have an advanced technology to defeat the WW. Done.
I agree.
As a reader who is no longer invested in the series being finished, I watched him weave new complexity into the story with each volume. I'm not sure it's possible to finish it. He's got so many hanging threads out there.
Just on your last point which is tangential: I think most curses are self inflicted. They are a manifestation of a mismatch between the person you perceive yourself to be and reality, and about not being able to deal with the difference.
I haven't read the series, but I'd hope for such a thing to happen and end the blight of series books.
I've read plenty of series, but I'm tired of them. I hate picking up a new book that sounds interesting, only to notice on it, "book 6 of the such and such series."
Just give me one tight novel that I don't have to invest my life into. I like to bounce around from genre to genre as I read, not be stuck on one particular series one after the other, not try to remember what is happening and why, etc, etc.
Maybe it's a function of how I read, but I'm just so tired of series books.
r/fantasy has long lists of book recommendations that are not series
I wish he'd hand it over to James S.A. Corey to finish. They (it's a pen name for 2 people) were his assistants for a while, and they've successfully completed an amazing series (The Expanse) and started a new one (The Mercy of Gods). They're phenomenal writers and I think they'd do a great job of finishing ASoIaF (Although I'd be disappointed to see their own projects delayed by them having to finish grrm's project lol. But I'd really like to see it finished competently, and I think they'd do a good job.)
I have zero evidence for this, have done no research, and it's probably wrong, but I've long wondered if GRRM hit his wall whenever he stopped working with James SA Corey. The expanse series is very nearly as narratively complicated as Game of Thrones and they were able to finish 8 long books in, what, 8 years?
Edit: martin's last book published in 2011. The first book of the expanse? Published 2011. I REST MY CASE.
Did he work with both or just Franck?
ETA: this is not an uncommon theory apparently
It'd be interesting, though their styles feel different enough that I think it would be jarring and I'm not sure that I'd enjoy it as GoT.
SA Corey's writing feels very lucid and clear to me, like a filtered beverage. GRRM's feels more hazy and organic, like an unfiltered beer or wine.
Would that be better for him? What advantage does he gain from doing either? Maybe it’ll curb some hate mail, but nothing will stop you from getting hate mail. He’d just get hate mail for other reasons.
He’s more than capable of working on other creative projects regardless of if the series is in limbo or canned.
There's something to be said for definitively, publicly ending a project and declaring you're moving on. It feels silly to grieve an unwritten book, but there's something to be said for getting an official death certificate, if that makes sense?
Deciding that something simply won't happen and finally giving up has a certain zen. Sharing that sentiment with fans would be sad and disappointing, but it might provide closure to some.
Super fans wouldn't even be that mad. They want him to just come clean.
Best shot there is will be his estate finding a new author after his death.
Nope. He's made arrangements for all his notes to be destroyed when he dies, he wants no zombie franchise whatsoever even if it denies any closure to the readers.
So did Kafka, but everything we have of Kafka's was published after he died.
Terry Pratchett did the same thing. If I remember correctly the hard drive containing his notes was crushed via a steam roller.
Doesn’t mean it can’t happen
The word of the previous king can be easily torn up by the new king. Just like when Eddard Stark tried to defend himself with Robert's last act as a king on a flimsy piece of paper. So nothing is out of question.
At some level, I get not having the energy to finish the series. But working on other projects in the same universe is crazy to me.
I can sympathize with it and it doesn't seem too strange to me. Even putting aside the monetary reasons for doing so, he clearly has a love for the world he's built. I'd venture even more so than the characters in the main series. I don't imagine it's like he's tired of the world or wants a different one, more that WoW is utterly overwhelming every time he reapproaches it.
ASOIAF's story has gotten hugely complicated in the last book, spanning multiple continents, several thousand pages, and so many separate character's perspectives each with their own subplots. It's so complex that the TV show had to just abandon some of the more challenging characters introduced in the latest books. Being able to pick up all those storylines and manage all that detail to result in a novel that brings them all to satisfying (near) completion is the harrowing part of writing WoW, not the world it's set in.
Like Dunk and Egg has such a narrow scope in comparison, it's a bumbling hedge knight happening into fairly routine events that play little footnotes in the larger world's political intrigue. Even Fire & Blood, though it spans such long periods and has all the kingdom at play, is much more focused than the mainline books. Plus, F&B is more like a serial anthology than a single story so much less challenging to keep a sustained focus on and regain context after you're distracted for several months.
The TV projects are probably mostly about money and what I can only imagine is a huge thrill.
The show didn’t have to abandon them. DnD chose to abandon them to work on other projects 😤 clearly I’m still upset.
I mean, a consistent read on the ending of the HBO series (which will probably never be confirmed) is that GRRM has five and a half books and a plot outline, and the books don't match up with the outline anymore, but TV shows have production schedules, and so they just… produced the books and then the outline, continuity failures be damned. Not much the showrunners could do about that unless they were up to the task of doing Martin's job for him and tying up the book plots into the intended conclusion.
(I mean, I am strongly given to understand—having not watched and having no interest in watching any of the show past season 1—that they did a piss-poor job of even that. But I certainly don't think Martin is an incompetent writer, and if the amount of time he's put in to trying to wrap this thing up hasn't gotten there, it's definitely not going to happen cleanly in a TV show writing schedule.)
The showrunners had been past the ending of the published books for quite a while, and while it's widely regarded that the later seasons are worse for it, the final season was a catastrophe of a different magnitude. Because it was so much worse than even the immediately preceding seasons, which also were written without new books from Martin to go on, it doesn't make sense to blame the ending's failure on that. It's very confirmed that the show ended when it did because the showrunners wanted to go on and make the next Star Wars movie -- there are quotes from Martin and others involved in the production explicitly saying that they could've gone on for many more seasons, but DnD wanted to end it and move on. A huge portion of the problems in season 8 are directly the result of trying to wrap up so much plot in a single season -- the pacing , for instance, is awful for this reason.
A half season! They were offered more episodes and declined those too
Other projects that never happened after they botched the show (and also because Confederates? Really. ಠ_ಠ)
Creating something new is much easier than ending something that complex.
Damn, my dude, just hand one of the reins over to Brandon Sanderson. He's not the best author in terms of linguistic beauty or compelling characterization, but of about equal quality to Martin; but he's productive as hell, superhumanly efficient, and well-proven at handling sprawling plotlines, casts, and settings. Bet he could figure your shit out. Give him co-author credit and tie this shit up before you croak.
Sanderson has said he would not do it.
I’d like to be a bit more clear that I believe Sanderson finds this an insanely insulting request. Not because he has and issue with Martin but rather the opposite and feels that it’s absurd how people are behaving over it. If I remember I’ll look for a source. This was some time ago
I tend to agree with him on that. I'll be happy for it to come out if it comes out, but I'm not gonna demand GRRM publicly give up or hand it off to another writer. I enjoy the books we have, and if that's all there is that doesn't ruin them for me.
orly? Honestly I can't fault him
I am not so sure about Sanderson being the right one in that situation. His style of fantasy was right for WoT, but I think Martin and Sanderson have very different styles of writing and the type of fantasy they write. Stephen R. Donaldson perhaps?
I also like this solution. I likely do not read the rest of GoT if GRRM finished it (rave reviews not withstanding). I’d definitely read it if Sanderson finished it.
he’d have a finished book by dinner time, too.
Honestly it might not be the worst thing to just have Sanderson give him a rough draft/treatment for him to throw away. I’ve been doing that with AI stuff lately where I’ll have it write my a few paragraphs of a thing based on vague bullet points I’ve given it and then I just continue writing and then end up deleting and revising the initial prompt paragraphs. It’s good for “priming the pump.”
That's a good use of it.
maybe GRRM should write the Spring book first so he has a target. I feel for the guy --- he's in an impossible situation. Unless the books are absolutely mind-blowing, he'll just get dragged through it all again. Maybe George needs to do ayahuasca.
That may actually be a good idea. I've always felt that the reason he manages to surprise his readers by switching perspective/POV charactets and not having this one invincible main character is the basically the same reason he's unable to finish the series: Instead of planning the story with an overarching goal in mind, he surprises himself by taking unexpected turns and opening ever more storylines. Maybe a bit of planning would help him. Decide where you wanna end up first, and fill the gaps later, instead of the other way around.
I find it hard to believe that the TV series had the ending he was planning. It would even be fine to have Arya do her thing, but he definitely needs to do something more with Bran.
For me, I really wanted Bran to warg into... all of the beasts of the earth and have a Woodland Critter Christmas death for Iceman.
Wow, back in 2018 I made a joke about GRRM writing slowly (at the 57m mark) to a couple of my favorite authors and Mary Robinette Kowal said, "When you see a writer who is not bringing a book out [...] there is almost always something else going on in their life that is slowing that down, because every writer wants to hit their deadlines, every writer wants to be finished with the book, and the worst thing you can do to them is say, 'Can you write faster?' because they already are not writing faster."
Imagine what the "something else" is and then you throw a successful HBO show on top of it followed by the relentless hounding from the fans.
I experience the curse very indirectly as whenever I post my walking videos, people say I look a bit like him, and so I get shit like "When are you going to finish those books?" lol
I have a cousin who looks like Kit Harrington, so for a long while he had folks shout random lines at him lol
Walking videos? 👀
https://tildes.net/~life/1n7e/daychildes_walking_thread which links to imgur which links to the youtube channel. lol.
Funny timing, I was just wondering about this book in the shower just now. Good to see it’s business as usual and can’t expect it to ever come out!
It’s such a shame because after how bad season 8 of the show was, I kidded myself into thinking “at least I’ll have the books” lmao
I feel the same way! Season 8 was such a disaster that I choose to end the series at Olenna's mic drop. I held out hope that the next book would redeem the mess that was the show after that point.
he should just write an outline, hire a ghostwriter, and then it'll be a bit of a let down like the last few books... and we can move on.
The outline is probably the problem.
We know George... We know