46 votes

‘Fandom has toxified the world’: Watchmen author Alan Moore on superheroes, Comicsgate and Donald Trump

17 comments

  1. [8]
    Humblemonk33
    Link
    "Ten years on, let me make my position clear: I believe that fandom is a wonderful and vital organ of contemporary culture, without which that culture ultimately stagnates, atrophies and dies. At...

    "Ten years on, let me make my position clear: I believe that fandom is a wonderful and vital organ of contemporary culture, without which that culture ultimately stagnates, atrophies and dies. At the same time, I’m sure that fandom is sometimes a grotesque blight that poisons the society surrounding it with its mean-spirited obsessions and ridiculous, unearned sense of entitlement."

    I've been pondering exactly this for a few years now, very interesting read.

    34 votes
    1. [4]
      moocow1452
      Link Parent
      Agreed, it's interesting that the idea of liking something has been intertwined so deeply as to make it a part of your identity. And with the collapse of the Monoculture, politics is becoming the...

      Agreed, it's interesting that the idea of liking something has been intertwined so deeply as to make it a part of your identity. And with the collapse of the Monoculture, politics is becoming the last all consuming fandom for better or worse.

      23 votes
      1. [3]
        Akir
        Link Parent
        I'm honestly kind of terrified about how this has been normalized. It's one thing to have something excite you, but I think that one of the things salient about Moore's thoughts is how we've...

        I'm honestly kind of terrified about how this has been normalized. It's one thing to have something excite you, but I think that one of the things salient about Moore's thoughts is how we've normalized a term that is actually fairly negative. Fanaticism is extremism; the word 'extreme' is going to be in the dictionary definition of the term. And much like Moore, I don't think that fanatacism is necessarily a bad thing; I like that it gets people creating things, even if those things are not at all what the public at large is interested in. Book nerds, please, by all means, keep writing fanfics. Movie nerds, please keep making films that in 10 years you will try your damndest to tear off of the internet. Even if it's not good for society as a whole, it's good for you.

        But the thing that has really made fandom distasteful to me personally is seeing how it's been commercialized. Just look at the business called Fandom; it's taken hold of so much of people's times and turned it into a rats nest of advertisements. Go to any common store and you will find shelves upon shelves of useless plastic garbage collectable products branded to your favorite media franchisse. Gamestop used to be a place to buy video games, now it's where you buy merch. Hot Topic is also a merch store, but does anyone remember when they were a clothier that catered to alternative subcultures? I'm actually amazed that legacy big box department stores don't have a Funko Pop section: this is why you're failing, Macy's.

        From time to time I browse on reddit's r/all and I'm just utterly amazed at how many subreddits make their way onto the first few pages. I appreciate the timeless nature of Lord of the Rings, but why are we dealing with memes for movies that are decades old at this point? Likewise I see Avatar: The Last Airbender stuff getting there, in spite of how much everyone seems to hate every attempt to revive it in the nearly 20 years since it first came out (not including Korra, but that's a whole other can of worms). Now of course, I can understand why people are so attached to these things, but it just makes me feel kind of sad when the groups are so large. To me it feels like that these people are stuck in time. I get wanting to stay there; there are stuff from my childhood that I feel I'm excessively attached to as well. But I'm not so attached that I would want to literally brand myself with them by purchasing their shirt, for instance.

        20 votes
        1. [2]
          GenuinelyCrooked
          Link Parent
          For the subreddits, at least, I hope most of the people there are doing what I used to do. Not thinking about ATLA for years, then rewatching it over a few weeks and spending some time in the...

          For the subreddits, at least, I hope most of the people there are doing what I used to do. Not thinking about ATLA for years, then rewatching it over a few weeks and spending some time in the subreddit while I do that. I hope it's less being stuck, and more revisiting.

          And for the shirts, I think the purpose of them is mostly to start conversation. If someone else out there likes the same things you do, it's a good way to let them know so you can talk about it. Maybe you'll make a new friend! But it shouldn't be the only thing you ever want to talk about.

          2 votes
          1. Lapbunny
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I saw someone wearing a Kyubey shirt at freshman orientation. Told him, "nice shirt!" I was wearing a "Hey! Listen!" shirt. (It was 2011! Shoot me.) He said, "nice shirt!" We ditched orientation,...

            I saw someone wearing a Kyubey shirt at freshman orientation. Told him, "nice shirt!" I was wearing a "Hey! Listen!" shirt. (It was 2011! Shoot me.) He said, "nice shirt!" We ditched orientation, explored campus with another friend, spent most free days doing things together that year, and were roommates for three years. We're still talking and playing Deadlock another nine years later.

            I'd say shirt was worth the $20...

            4 votes
    2. [3]
      Eji1700
      Link Parent
      The issues is tying up your own worth with your position. You can no longer accept "being wrong" or "different opinions" because now it's a personal affront or attack.

      The issues is tying up your own worth with your position. You can no longer accept "being wrong" or "different opinions" because now it's a personal affront or attack.

      8 votes
      1. [2]
        daywalker
        Link Parent
        While not wrong, that applies to any argument. Not particularly to fandom or contemporary era. People for thousands of years have been killing each other for having conflicting opinions (religion...

        While not wrong, that applies to any argument. Not particularly to fandom or contemporary era. People for thousands of years have been killing each other for having conflicting opinions (religion and politics).

        3 votes
        1. Eji1700
          Link Parent
          Yeup. It's all the same fundamental thing. People gravitate towards it. Fandom's/religion/politics are not exactly the problem in my eyes. It's at a lower level where people find this to be a way...

          Yeup. It's all the same fundamental thing. People gravitate towards it. Fandom's/religion/politics are not exactly the problem in my eyes. It's at a lower level where people find this to be a way to behave.

          5 votes
  2. daywalker
    (edited )
    Link
    I think Moore is spot on about purist fans' reaction to creations and its relationship to political conservatism. I mentioned before in an essay that the two are conceptually related (which I'll...
    • Exemplary

    I think Moore is spot on about purist fans' reaction to creations and its relationship to political conservatism. I mentioned before in an essay that the two are conceptually related (which I'll link at the end).

    However, I'm very skeptical of this part.

    Those who vote for Donald Trump or Boris Johnson seem less moved by policy or prior accomplishment than by how much they’ve enjoyed the performances on The Apprentice or Have I Got News for You.

    I'm not a US or a UK citizen, but I've been watching American politics since mid-2010s. At least for Trump, I don't think his previous performances on reality TV have anything to do with the current political landscape anymore. The emergence and sustenance of cult personalities are very complicated things, and I doubt fandom has much role to play in these. There has been personality cults before fandom too, and I doubt fandom is one of the main driving forces behind it.

    Another point is that reality TV fans and geeky fiction fans are generally two very different fandoms. I honestly haven't seen much intersection. If anything, the geeky fans, from what I see, have a lot of contempt for reality TV.

    I agree with Moore on this (potentially) being related to holding on to teen fantasies. I think I've read his mention of this years ago, and it affected my reasoning, but I think the current opinion piece could use more elaboration. To toot my own horn again, here is the essay I mentioned: Postmodernism, conservatism, reactionarism: A brief attempt at deconstructing the purist fans

    Edit: One of the more novel things Moore mentions is the transformation of early fandom to what it is now. This is not entirely new, as I've seen it mentioned several times in other leftist pieces, but it bears repeating: as the geeky things became more intertwined with capital and grew bigger as an industry, they changed. However, I'm not sure it happened as Moore presents: that the shift from lower class to middle class of the audience resulted in more conservative products. I doubt claims that lower classes are less conservative than middle classes, which is not true at all in my experience (but then again, I'm not from a developed country). What I suspect has happenened is that as the industry grew bigger, this resulted in more financial interests, so naturally more conservative stories.

    I generally don't go for top-down explanations to these things, as I think they are generally very simplistic. But in this instance, it makes more sense to me.

    16 votes
  3. [8]
    Bet
    Link
    Honestly, there seems to be a real lack of the joy of creation in fandom nowadays — it’s all been eaten up by greed. Literally, just a bottomless pit of acquisition. And people also appear to have...

    Honestly, there seems to be a real lack of the joy of creation in fandom nowadays — it’s all been eaten up by greed. Literally, just a bottomless pit of acquisition. And people also appear to have forgotten how to interact with ‘myth’.

    Adults frozen in adolescence? I suppose so. But this is about — as Erich Fromm would say — having versus being. An orientation of self, and how one perceives the world, and fandom’s changes are really only a reflection of a much larger issue.

    Also, we don’t really value ephemera for its ephemerality, for its own sake as an experience that we can’t tote around and show off, as we once did; social media has had quite the hand in this. If there is no picture, no memorabilia, no way to prove to other people that something was there to begin with, then it might as well not have been. And this need to materialize everything — to grasp and contain it, to own it; to let the act of having be what is integrated into the self — has consequences, one of which is this pervasive inability to access story, because story is not an object.

    Which really leads into how so many people bought into the obviously faulty concept of NFTs.

    11 votes
    1. [6]
      daywalker
      Link Parent
      Are you, from a metaphysically heavy perspective, trying to say that people shifted from an active role to a passive one in experiencing stories? If that is your point, I do disagree, because...

      Are you, from a metaphysically heavy perspective, trying to say that people shifted from an active role to a passive one in experiencing stories? If that is your point, I do disagree, because there has never been so much fanart, fanfic, or fanworks in general. Furthermore, there has never been so much debate about theories about fictional words in general, which are creations by themselves. After all, meaning of a text is created by the effort of both the author and the reader.

      For good or bad, fandom is very active. It's certainly not without its problems, but to say that people forgot how to interact with myth complete ignores all the "headcanons", fanfictions, theories, and other fanworks that are popular like never before. You could even argue that people haven't been this involved with stories, their creation, and interpretation, for a very, very long time. If anyone disagrees, I'd like them to point to any other period post-1800 where this many people (in ratio) were this involved in theorizing and creating.

      Seriously, there's so much fanwork and activity that are divorced from any financial interest, solely driven by passion. It's a wonderful thing to witness.

      4 votes
      1. [2]
        public
        Link Parent
        This depends heavily on which fandom you’re discussing. Colorful ponies? Absolutely true. Sports? Less so. An alternate view is that online communication allowed those who were inclined to create...

        This depends heavily on which fandom you’re discussing. Colorful ponies? Absolutely true. Sports? Less so.

        An alternate view is that online communication allowed those who were inclined to create to create many more things, but also attracted a large passive fandom. Total creation is up, but the proportion of creators is down.

        4 votes
        1. Lapbunny
          Link Parent
          Naaaah. Look at fantasy leagues; absurdly popular, it's a way of taking ownership of someone's narrative, there's low ceiling to create your own, and you get to bond with close friends or a wider...

          Sports? Less so.

          Naaaah. Look at fantasy leagues; absurdly popular, it's a way of taking ownership of someone's narrative, there's low ceiling to create your own, and you get to bond with close friends or a wider community.

          Relevant/irrelevant aside, I took a pop culture class - the professor brought up that sports fans get to quasi-cosplay every day, and no one bats an eye...

          4 votes
      2. [3]
        SloMoMonday
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I'd argue Bet's observation is less about passive/active relationships with media, but rather the type of actions people are encouraged to take beyond the initial engagement. You've referenced...

        I'd argue Bet's observation is less about passive/active relationships with media, but rather the type of actions people are encouraged to take beyond the initial engagement.
        You've referenced very active and productive outlets for fandom and I'd add to that category activities like game mods, legacy game tournaments and the libraries of community made TTRPG expansions. They're constructive avenues that allow the works to exist as the community wants it to while manifesting their idea of it. Its also how art has always worked and iterated throughout history. Fifty Shades of Grey was Twilight fanfic, Twilight is heavily inspired by romantic classics, namely Pride and Prejudice. And while Jane Austen is the pillar of contemporary romance, she definitely had influences of her own. And of course companies are trying to kill that too but that's its own story.

        However, from what I've seen, a lot of toxicity stems from the creatively passive parts of the fanbase. The type of people who punctuate their arguments by some exceptionally rare or costly merch and often reference some meaningless contest. Marvel and DC. PS and XBox. A lot of stan culture and now with culture warriors (good god there's a lot of merchandising opportunities for socio-political issues).
        I believe that toxic fandom is born from an innate desire to destroy or tear down art to prop up ones own. And when you run out of external targets, the sights turn inwards to "purify" the brand. Regret is a very difficult emotion to reconcile, especially when its tied to a lot of foundational positive association. These associations were easy as children because it was mostly freely gained, lacked almost all wider context and propped up by a ton of positive social reinforcement. Now as economically active and often struggling adults, there is an incentive to not only make the right choice, but justify all prior investment all while maintaining the status-quo. It's all about preventing the buyers remorse for how one chooses to invest their limited cash and ultimately time. And the phenomenon is obviously supercharged by corporate/capitalist forces because we live in hell.

        3 votes
        1. [2]
          redwall_hp
          Link Parent
          I want to say that Twilight also started as Harry Potter fanfiction that was meticulously scrubbed from the internet. I dimly remember a conversation about it on PotterCast back before Deathly...

          Shades of Grey was Twilight fanfic

          I want to say that Twilight also started as Harry Potter fanfiction that was meticulously scrubbed from the internet. I dimly remember a conversation about it on PotterCast back before Deathly Hallows came out.

          1. SloMoMonday
            Link Parent
            I vaguely remember that being a big deal back in the day but figured it was a fever dream when I tried to fact check it. That internet around early 2010s is a massive blob in my memory with all...

            I vaguely remember that being a big deal back in the day but figured it was a fever dream when I tried to fact check it.
            That internet around early 2010s is a massive blob in my memory with all the fandom drama. Think it was the worst parts of the Harry Potter, Omegaverse, Homestuck, Twilight, anime and even One Direction communities all trying to stir up as much crap as possible. We had a small shared-world DnD club on Facebook and were forced to completely block new members who were not personally referred and vetted. Weren't that strict on pop culture references and even had our own Muttonscab Academy for Unsupervised Magical, but people wanted to live out very precise fantasies.

    2. Akir
      Link Parent
      I can’t help but wonder if this is why it seems so hard to get people interested in live theatre. A while back I saw a production of American Idiot (the musical). I did not take any video or...

      I can’t help but wonder if this is why it seems so hard to get people interested in live theatre. A while back I saw a production of American Idiot (the musical). I did not take any video or photos of the show itself. It wasn’t allowed and even if it were, it would take my attention away from the show to take them, which means that instead of imprinting a high quality memory of what the experience was like, I’d have a video largely divorced of its context and passion.

      Even though this was a relatively big name production this would not have been possible if it were not being funded by the nonprofit foundation who produced it. It was in a very small but very nice venue that would have not been possible without rich benefactors, with expensive sets and effects, and I would have not been able to afford the tickets. In fact, probably the only reason why I saw it was because it was part of a season ticket package which meant that individually the show was extremely cheap.

      One way to think about this is that the theatre fanatics have managed to make this accessible to me. They put in more money so I could put in less and still see the show. But on the other hand, I am also extremely lucky because if I lived in most other places in the world I would not have access to this. In fact, it’s a pretty long drive to get to this venue. There are simelar programs happening across the country that are on smaller scales, in the form of community theatre. To my understanding they are largely funded the same way; selling advertising in their program, season tickets to ensure full seating as much as possible, and donations from patrons. But even so, theatre is no longer entertainment for the masses for the most part. As much as I loved theatre as a kid, I didn’t actually get much opportunity to see those shows; it was a treat to see them even when they were school productions.

      But the thing is, this form of fandom is very old. It’s not a new thing and it’s something that even Alan Moore would have grown up with. It seems an awful lot like the fandom he speaks of. I’m not sure if it’s exactly the same, but after thinking about it for a bit I’m not sure that it’s different enough to worry about fandom. Perhaps todays fandom of popular media is just a more modern incarnation of the patronage system, made more accessible to the masses.

      1 vote