American in Europe here. Totally aside from the air conditioner debate, can we talk about why Europe still has not discovered the existence of window screens? Over here, opening a window means...
American in Europe here.
Totally aside from the air conditioner debate, can we talk about why Europe still has not discovered the existence of window screens?
Over here, opening a window means letting the cat escape, as well as inviting all manner of bugs into your house, including hummingbird-sized wasps.
Just come to Greece and see: Summer temperature range 40-28C (heatwaves clock 40-45-48C) Window shutters + screens in mostly every home AC galore (though I prefer roof fans) Houses built to...
Just come to Greece and see:
Summer temperature range 40-28C (heatwaves clock 40-45-48C)
Window shutters + screens in mostly every home
AC galore (though I prefer roof fans)
Houses built to dissipate heat, not trap it.
Point is that Europe is too big and our climate diverse enough, so such generalizations can't/don't apply
As I said elsewhere, "Europe" is too big. This might be true for some countries, but it certainly isn't true for the Netherlands. I don't know any better than windows always having screens in...
Totally aside from the air conditioner debate, can we talk about why Europe still has not discovered the existence of window screens?
As I said elsewhere, "Europe" is too big. This might be true for some countries, but it certainly isn't true for the Netherlands. I don't know any better than windows always having screens in front of them for most homes. There certainly isn't a limitation in choice either
Of course I'm just one person, personal experience, yada. That said, I lived in The Hague (for the Americans; that's in the Netherlands) for 2 years, traveled extensively about the Randstad area,...
Of course I'm just one person, personal experience, yada.
That said, I lived in The Hague (for the Americans; that's in the Netherlands) for 2 years, traveled extensively about the Randstad area, never saw a single window screen in anyone's home or business in my time there.
Additionally, there may well be clever add-on tricks for inserting window screens, but I never saw an installed window that looked like it was designed to include a screen.
When I lived in Hungary, we hired a home improvement crew to install window screens, and it was a Big Deal, custom design, custom measurements, custom cutting of wooden strips, etc ... every single window, plus the rear patio door, all being built separately, different size, different shape. It was a several-days-long job. That home had been built by people who did not know (or care) about the existence of window screens.
Now I'm in Germany, lived in 2 different areas, same deal ... no screen anywhere, and windows–apparently, at least–not even designed to accept 'em.
Edit to add: Looking out my window in Aachen right now, I can see ~100 windows across the street. A few have the fancy roll-down metal storm shutters, but not a single screen anywhere.
Huh, that genuinely does surprise me. Like I said, I don't know any better than that most people I know have screens for their windows. Though a lot of them have the kind you can take out and...
That said, I lived in The Hague (for the Americans; that's in the Netherlands) for 2 years, traveled extensively about the Randstad area, never saw a single window screen in anyone's home or business in my time there.
Huh, that genuinely does surprise me. Like I said, I don't know any better than that most people I know have screens for their windows. Though a lot of them have the kind you can take out and often those are frames placed from inside the house as you can't access the windows on upper floors easily from the outside. If you are expecting to see screens from the outside it makes sense, to me, that you haven't seen them much around here.
and it was a Big Deal, custom design, custom measurements, custom cutting of wooden strips, etc ... every single window, plus the rear patio door, all being built separately, different size, different shape.
This I do recognize, except for it feeling like a big deal. All home improvement stores here will have a dedicated aisle with all sorts of solutions. From very cheap and a bit janky to a bit more expensive and solid. Where the janky solution basically is a roll of Velcro tape on the window frame which holds on to the screen mesh. And the solid solutions do require you to make some adjustments to the 4 parts that will make up the screen frame that fits in the window.
I suppose it is entirely possible there is some divide in the country I am not aware of with entire groups of people not having screens for their homes. I am just saying that the concept in itself is far from unknown here given the wide availability of screening solutions.
No matter how the screen is installed, you should be able to see it from the outside. Maybe there's some "thing" in the Neth, that screens are rare along the coast (ocean winds, fewer bugs, holy...
No matter how the screen is installed, you should be able to see it from the outside.
Maybe there's some "thing" in the Neth, that screens are rare along the coast (ocean winds, fewer bugs, holy seagulls, etc), but common inland?
More and more today, I'm seeing evidence that screen solutions/options are widely available, and yet many (most?) Europeans just don't bother.
Perhaps the biggest difference is, in the US, window units are - almost universally - designed and built to include screens (it would feel really weird to be in a home/flat that didn't have them), while here in the EU, you gotta show some initiative (and cash) to get 'em.
It's entirely possible it is a regional thing as well yeah. I certainly grew up more inland. I also have no reference on how common these are in the US. All I can say that at least in this part of...
It's entirely possible it is a regional thing as well yeah. I certainly grew up more inland. I also have no reference on how common these are in the US. All I can say that at least in this part of Europe they are not some unknown thing and in my experience relatively common.
Here in Germany it's definitely at least possible to find window screens that attach with magnets and thus don't require drilling or other advanced installation. They're not as robust as proper...
Here in Germany it's definitely at least possible to find window screens that attach with magnets and thus don't require drilling or other advanced installation. They're not as robust as proper window screens but they're a massive improvement over nothing at all. I was similarly shocked that they're so rare here.
Someone on another forum just mentioned the magnet-screens, too. That's probably an even better solution then US spring-loaded pins. I may have to give these a try.
Someone on another forum just mentioned the magnet-screens, too. That's probably an even better solution then US spring-loaded pins. I may have to give these a try.
I just saw this article on reddit: "France’s latest culture war flashpoint: air conditioning." Of course France is not representative of the rest of Europe. But I do feel like Europeans seem to,...
Of course France is not representative of the rest of Europe. But I do feel like Europeans seem to, at least online, have an aversion to AC.
Pretty sure AC penetration in Europe is super low compared to other places, such as most of the US. As an American, the thought of not having AC during this time of the year, when it can be in the 90s F (>32.2C) for multiple days in a row, is insane. Not even going to talk about the humidity.
I get that increased AC use means increased power consumption, which means increased energy production. And depending on how that energy is produced potentially means more carbon emissions. Which only makes things hotter. But I think letting people die during heatwaves in order to protect the environment isn't exactly the best tradeoff.
I know the climate is different too. But these European heatwaves seem like they're only becoming more common. Maybe even getting longer. Seems like every summer, for the last many summers, I've been hearing about killer heatwaves in Europe. I think it might be time for AC. Maybe there needs to be some regulation around it to help mitigate the affects on energy consumption and climate. Like I personally keep my AC between 76-78F (24.4-25.5) when I'm at home, depending on the time of day. Sometimes I'll even let it rise to 80F (26.6C). Maybe somehow only allow ACs to go no lower than that. Yeah, 26C is still warm, especially inside (having a fan pointed at me helps a lot), but it's still better than >32C and dying from heatstroke.
I think part of it really is they just didn't have such extreme heat waves in the past that called for it. I remember reading many stories about foreigners being shocked when they'd visit the US...
I think part of it really is they just didn't have such extreme heat waves in the past that called for it. I remember reading many stories about foreigners being shocked when they'd visit the US during heat waves since we also have high humidity to accompany it. The humidity is the real killer I think, I remember getting winded just walking from the car into the library on a day with 80F weather and strong humidity. I guess that combo isn't as common in Europe? Or, wasn't...
Little anecdote: we visited Paris last March and I had to buy new pajamas because the weather was in the 60's F, and the hotel room was too hot for my long pajama pants. We'd packed with cool spring weather in mind, but it ended up feeling like summer and our hotel lacked AC. After hearing most buildings and hotels in Paris lack AC, all I could think was how bad it'd be in the summer during the Olympics.
On that note, I think the other challenge with adding AC in Europe is just retrofitting all the old buildings. The US has a relatively recent history, so a lot of public buildings and houses have been constructed since the invention of air conditioning and had it in mind. Europe... Not so much.
No it definitely is. The difference now is the consistent days of heat just making the surroundings unbearable. In the past I'd know that a day or two/three of 30° would be counteracted by a good...
I guess that combo isn't as common in Europe?
No it definitely is. The difference now is the consistent days of heat just making the surroundings unbearable. In the past I'd know that a day or two/three of 30° would be counteracted by a good rainy day to cool it all down.
I'm in France right now and we had 30+ for almost two weeks straight, forcing us out of the sun even at 9am. It wasn't until it rained two days ago that everything became bearable again even with 30° outside.
Edit to add: would still not get AC. Temp management inside is fine. Warm days are warm, that's not necessarily a problem. I dislike the cold more.
It isn't, afaik there are no places with humidity and heat comparable to some US states. Another advantage in much of Europe is that we get actual winters, so there was a huge push to insulate...
I guess that combo isn't as common in Europe? Or, wasn't...
It isn't, afaik there are no places with humidity and heat comparable to some US states. Another advantage in much of Europe is that we get actual winters, so there was a huge push to insulate buildings against heat loss in some countries, and insulation also protects against heat in summer if done well. My parents' house is really well insulated and when outside temperature approaches 35°C for a week (which is rare), the temperature inside may or may not climb up to 24° C. Zero need for AC. Within cities it can get much worse, especially in top floor appartments under the roof, which is not insulated in older buildings, but it's not exactly deadly levels of heat. ACs are however getting more common especially in those situations.
The real issue are southern countries that do not get bad winters, so they didn't do this wave of insulating their houses en masse, and while they don't really suffer form high humidity either, the temperatures can climb close to Texas levels there on occassion, which is simply too much. Plus some cities that are not even that far south but get worse heat waves due to having their own microclimate, like Paris. 40+° C in Paris is terrible and does kill old and sick people.
I don't think this actually serves as an advantage over most of the US. Until you get quite far north (like, the northern portions of Nordic countries), winters throughout most of Europe are very...
Another advantage in much of Europe is that we get actual winters, so there was a huge push to insulate buildings against heat loss in some countries, and insulation also protects against heat in summer if done well
I don't think this actually serves as an advantage over most of the US. Until you get quite far north (like, the northern portions of Nordic countries), winters throughout most of Europe are very mild when compared to most of North America. A particularly bad winter here in Berlin is still far milder than even an average or relatively mild winter back in Cleveland -- despite Cleveland being on the same latitude as Florence. Buildings in parts of the US that aren't the south have to be just as well-insulated if not more so to survive much worse winters than the vast majority of even northern Europe, and they still usually have air conditioning because we're very used to hot summers like this. Insulation and other low-tech measures like closing curtains and blinds can protect against the heat milder summers like what they used to get here, but the sustained high heat that had been getting worse every year makes this no longer tenable.
Also, it nearly reached 40⁰C here in Berlin this week, so the inevitable deaths from heat are not limited to just southern Europe.
Testify. Apologies, but people in the EU don't know what winter means. I grew up in southern Wisconsin, which has legitimately, objectively more severe winters than Stockholm, despite being at...
Testify.
Apologies, but people in the EU don't know what winter means.
I grew up in southern Wisconsin, which has legitimately, objectively more severe winters than Stockholm, despite being at about the same latitude as Rome.
Now I live in Aachen, which is further north than my brother in Canada. This last winter, we got about 7 cm of snow, while he got something like 2 1/2 m.
The EU is sooo screwed if the AMOC ever actually fails....
Part of that actually already is due to climate change. We used to get way more snow in Western Europe. I still remember as a child that snow was a given in the winter, now it is rare. But even...
Part of that actually already is due to climate change. We used to get way more snow in Western Europe. I still remember as a child that snow was a given in the winter, now it is rare. But even back then it was less snow compared to the decades prior.
It's my understanding that northern America also has seen changes in snow fall due to climate change but in different ways where in some cases the snowfall can increase.
Anyway, we used to be fairly familiar with heavy snowfall, though I fully admit that we are less prepared for it these days given the change over the past two and half decades.
Heh, I remember in my first semester in college we got emails warning us to wear scarves covering our mouths "to protect our lungs". Ever since then I've been wondering what sort of climate is...
Heh, I remember in my first semester in college we got emails warning us to wear scarves covering our mouths "to protect our lungs". Ever since then I've been wondering what sort of climate is ideal for humanity, because I feel like we're not meant for temperatures that are dangerous to just inhale.
Back in my old building I had a little split AC unit in a corner of the living room, with the outdoor unit in the balcony; it could cool down the living room if necessary (not the bedrooms). There...
Back in my old building I had a little split AC unit in a corner of the living room, with the outdoor unit in the balcony; it could cool down the living room if necessary (not the bedrooms). There were only 4 AC users in the building in total, and I attended condominium meetings in which non-AC owners complained endlessly (for hours) about AC owners, how the units were noisy, produced water, were ugly, etc etc. (my downstairs neighbor, also an AC owner, could not complain, thankfully).
That's the culture in Portugal. That place was incredibly hot, and a lot of people would rather stew in there - in fact they'd rather other people stewed in their homes than let them have AC. The red tape changes from place to place. In my brother's city, the city itself must approve any AC installations that are visible from the street.
When I moved to where I am, in what remains the largest investment I ever made into anything in my life so far, I installed AC in every room. People mocked me for it, saying this place was cooler than my previous home, which is true. Have I regretted it? Absolutely not. They complain about heat waves and I turn on the AC. I care about the environment, but I don't see the benefit in being miserable and unproductive all day long.
I think the sentiment is shifting. In my experience, in the past I thought that Aircon was unnessary. It was for just a few days a year, and you can cool your house before and after and weaher it...
I think the sentiment is shifting. In my experience, in the past I thought that Aircon was unnessary. It was for just a few days a year, and you can cool your house before and after and weaher it out fairly well. Nowadays, we have aircon for the reason that heatwaves are getting more common and that we wantef to switch to electric heating. Many people are switching to heatpumps to heat their homes with electricity and with that you get aircon as a bonus.
European here. I honestly don’t get how anyone with access to running water (which I assume is basically everyone in the West) struggles through a heatwave. My apartment gets really hot,...
European here. I honestly don’t get how anyone with access to running water (which I assume is basically everyone in the West) struggles through a heatwave. My apartment gets really hot, especially in the late afternoon. When it’s too much, I just take a quick cold-ish shower, cool down completely, and I’m good for 1-2 hours. Showers, a couple of fans, shades to block the sun, windows shut tight during the day, then wide open at night and early morning when it’s cooler, that’s it. Why would I need an AC sucking up tons of energy for hours?
Where I am (South Carolina), you’d be taking several showers every hour, and your house wouldn’t cool off at night because the low is above 20 C (68 F) and humid. Sometimes the evenings are worse...
Where I am (South Carolina), you’d be taking several showers every hour, and your house wouldn’t cool off at night because the low is above 20 C (68 F) and humid. Sometimes the evenings are worse than daytime in that regard.
This seems to be the majority take, but it’s utterly alien to me. I hate being physically uncomfortable - it’s distracting, it balloons to fill all my available focus, it completely blocks my...
This seems to be the majority take, but it’s utterly alien to me. I hate being physically uncomfortable - it’s distracting, it balloons to fill all my available focus, it completely blocks my ability to concentrate on what I should be doing and uses all that brainpower concentrating on something unpleasant instead.
I would happily pay what my AC unit cost to avoid even a single day of that, and it’s still going strong after five years of ever-increasing numbers of 30C+ summer days here in London.
American here. I think our heatwaves (and summer temperatures in general) have been historically been more intense than Europe. Several regions also tend to have pretty strong humidity attached to...
American here. I think our heatwaves (and summer temperatures in general) have been historically been more intense than Europe. Several regions also tend to have pretty strong humidity attached to it, which makes it worse. High humidity prevents your sweat from evaporating so you and everything else become very sticky and hot, and it can be genuinely hard to breathe. And you aren't always in a position where you can shower to cool off whenever you get too hot.
The one time where I thought that people complaining about being unable to breathe with masks could actually have a point was when we went to New York City during a heat wave. The mask trapping my breath and sweat directly against my face absolutely made it even worse. We ended up going into a pharmacy just to get out of the heat for a couple minutes, and later bought cheap folding fans to fan ourselves just to try to get some relief.
So basically, for some parts of the US at least (especially for the southern states), air conditioning in summertime has been necessary even before climate change started really hitting. I know that it got standardized in more northern states during my mom's lifetime, since she recounted how during college students with asthma got priority on the newer dorm rooms with AC installed. Those students were the most popular people on campus on hot days.
It's the corn sweat. It's not just the corn, but the large expanses of crops across major sections of the country all respirating their moisture out increase the wet bulb temperature. Which means...
It's the corn sweat.
It's not just the corn, but the large expanses of crops across major sections of the country all respirating their moisture out increase the wet bulb temperature.
Which means that cold shower doesn't relieve you once your internal body heat brings you back to temp, and the fan or natural breeze doesn't cool you off, it just moves the hot, damp air around.
Then when the lows aren't low enough to really let a house or apartment building cool off at night older and medically fragile people suffer the most, the fastest.
My family in Denver has similar high temps to me, but a strong breeze, low humidity and a low around 70°.
During the recent heat wave our low was in the low 80s the humidity was high, the daytime temp was 89-95° and the heat index was 106°... For like six days straight.
As a Denverite who was just in Chicago the last week: I am so thankful for our dry heat. In Chicago, I'm sweating in the shade and it's just not going away and I'm just...hot all the time and...
As a Denverite who was just in Chicago the last week: I am so thankful for our dry heat.
In Chicago, I'm sweating in the shade and it's just not going away and I'm just...hot all the time and cannot breathe. Yuck.
First, as some alluded to, much lower humidity than most of the US. My non-AC apartment kept it at 50%. Humidity can get bad here, but usually as a result of rain, which pretty much precludes a...
First, as some alluded to, much lower humidity than most of the US. My non-AC apartment kept it at 50%. Humidity can get bad here, but usually as a result of rain, which pretty much precludes a heat wave. YMMV regionally.
Second, building styles. Decent insulation and/or high thermal mass means your walls might take days and days to heat up to unpleasant levels. While it was 40 degrees outside, my apartment never rose above 28. And that in a city that didn't cool off below 20 at night. Conscious management like not cooking and opening windows whenever the outside is cool does help. YMMV per building.
It doesn't get bad enough often enough to justify AC. Or at least it didn't.
Czech Republic (middle Europe) here. We don't have AC and we have 24-27 degrees inside for past week or two depending on time of day. We open windows for night when the outsode temperature falls...
Czech Republic (middle Europe) here.
We don't have AC and we have 24-27 degrees inside for past week or two depending on time of day. We open windows for night when the outsode temperature falls down to say 13-14 degrees early in the morning and then close the windows through the day. We also have blinds and big parasol in front of french window (parasol 4x4 meters, french window is basically 2x2 meters glass door facing south).
We have above-ground pool that is between 27 and 32 degrees (depends on time of day and how sunny it is) and we make use of it.
We can live with the heat (it is above 30 degrees last couple of days) for a few weeks, there is no real need for AC. If this was for three months straight, it would probably be different.
I believe it is very different for countries around Mediterranean, they likely get another +10 degrees there, maybe even more. I believe they use AC a lot there.
I remember a number of years ago learning that the fossil fuel consumption in the Northeast of the United States (where I live) is dramatically higher than in the South over the course of a year....
I remember a number of years ago learning that the fossil fuel consumption in the Northeast of the United States (where I live) is dramatically higher than in the South over the course of a year. Why? Because we have to move a much higher temperature gradient in the winter to heat our homes than the South does to cool their homes. Sure, they heat a bit, too, but nothing like us.
I say this to remind Europe a bit that the feeling of pride for not needing AC isn't really a strong indicator of your climate change mitigation superiority. It's a reminder that, like many of us in the United States, we simply must rush to embrace heat pumps in massive numbers as quickly as possible.
You'll end up getting air conditioning as a knock on benefit, sure. You'll lose the feeling of prideful superiority of not needing the AC (a real downside), but your grandparents and excitable toddlers won't die in the yearly wet bulb months we'll surely start to experience in our lives.
I've got geothermal (really it's just a ground source heat pump) and solar panels on my home. I set my thermostat to 70°F year round (a stable temperature is the most efficient way to run a whole-home heat pump). I cover my entire electricity use until November while exporting to the grid. It takes until mid February to see an electricity bill, at which point I am consuming mostly natural gas based electricity, some hydro, and some nuclear. I am ashamed of that mix and wish my country would get its shit together. And in March/April, my solar begins to cover 100% of my needs again.
A 70°F year round home as the most efficient way to run my system is crazy town. Look it up though. It's true. I could go with 75°F as well, sure, and the transition days would bounce around by a week here or there. A coefficient of efficiency at 4-5 depending on the ground temperature at 447' below ground is the most amazing physics!
I don't recognize this pride argument you talk about, for me locally the argument I hear is usually that the real heat is only a few days at a time and a few weeks total which is true. But you'll...
I don't recognize this pride argument you talk about, for me locally the argument I hear is usually that the real heat is only a few days at a time and a few weeks total which is true. But you'll be pleased to hear that at least in Northern EU heat pumps are indeed a big thing nowadays and as a homeowner you can even claim a subsidy. It's on my list for our home for next year. Can't wait, we're installing in floor heating to that will be used to cool too in the summer.
Hey I should also note, our lovely government in the United States just killed our 30% tax credit on the purchase and installation of heat pumps and solar panels for individual citizens. And it's...
Hey I should also note, our lovely government in the United States just killed our 30% tax credit on the purchase and installation of heat pumps and solar panels for individual citizens. And it's being signed into law by the president today.
So uh. Good job still having those benefits you mentioned there @nachoman!
That's awesome to hear! The electrification of home heating in the winter and escaping the reliance on fossil fuels and petro states is truly critical in the coming years - not decades. I'm proud...
That's awesome to hear! The electrification of home heating in the winter and escaping the reliance on fossil fuels and petro states is truly critical in the coming years - not decades. I'm proud to hear you're embracing that change on an individual level. I hope our policy makers can push hard, too.
Even if those radiant floors and heat pumps rely on natural gas next winter for you, they will not forever. But a natural gas furnace or an oil furnace will never really change substantially.
Yeah this year we are upgrading the wooden window frames to plastic ones with triple glass, that should make a huge difference. At this literal moments I'm preparing the floors for underfloor...
Yeah this year we are upgrading the wooden window frames to plastic ones with triple glass, that should make a huge difference. At this literal moments I'm preparing the floors for underfloor heating. Then comes cavity wall insulation, and next year I'll look into heat pumps and solar panels. I am happy we are in a position to do all this and would want do do even more if it all wasn't so god damn expensive haha.
Radiant floor makes life so luxurious. Enjoy and be proud of all those positive improvements!! Solar is excellent even when you're in northern latitudes IMHO!
Radiant floor makes life so luxurious. Enjoy and be proud of all those positive improvements!! Solar is excellent even when you're in northern latitudes IMHO!
Depending on which countries you count there are roughly between 30 to 44 countries in "Europe" many of them with very different climates. Even those that share similar climates often have...
I say this to remind Europe a bit that the feeling of pride for not needing AC isn't really a strong indicator of your climate change mitigation superiority.
Depending on which countries you count there are roughly between 30 to 44 countries in "Europe" many of them with very different climates. Even those that share similar climates often have different ways of handling extremes between them.
Basically, I feel like you are painting an overly broad picture here. Even more so when you consider the rest of your argument for heat pumps. As that brings to mind the subsidies for heat pumps and the fact that since 2023 new houses are required to be fitted with them as well.
If that is the case for other countries in Europe? I don't know, for some of them that might very well be the case. Certainly those that are part of the EU it is entirely possible that these rules are a result decisions made at that level.
Anyway, what I am trying to get is that it seems you are trying to convince an entire continent of people but are doing so in a way that is more likely to alienate them than anything else.
I think that's super fair. Saying the United States feels one way is a common trope as well. 48 contiguous states, two non, and many overseas territories. To say we have one opinion about anything...
I think that's super fair. Saying the United States feels one way is a common trope as well. 48 contiguous states, two non, and many overseas territories. To say we have one opinion about anything is similarly unreasonable.
It would be, but your comment is a top level comment on an article talking about France and I don't see people really bring up the US in that way either. At least, not in this thread, to be honest...
It would be, but your comment is a top level comment on an article talking about France and I don't see people really bring up the US in that way either. At least, not in this thread, to be honest it feels a bit disjointed. I guess I am just struggling a bit with the messaging here.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I read the article, read the comments, and decided to share my thoughts on the topic. My intent was not to insult, but to share my thoughts. It can be hard to convey...
I'm sorry you feel that way. I read the article, read the comments, and decided to share my thoughts on the topic. My intent was not to insult, but to share my thoughts.
It can be hard to convey layers upon layers of nuance when writing a few short paragraphs of thought rather than something of op ed length. Hopefully you can see how I told a story about the non-homogeneous peoples across regions of the United States and how some of each of those groups' preconceived notions are incorrect and interpose that against the commentary I was making in the context of the topic at hand about the non-homogeneous peoples of Europe. One of the folks interacting with me, even, was from Northern Europe as opposed to from Paris. The article, frankly, is what made me think about disparate groups. It repeatedly enumerates multiple nations. Yet it's on politico dot eu.
We're all in the forthcoming heat waves together. Even if they're only acutely murdering some groups of us at a time.
One of the things about nuance is that one might use the word "feel" to make things slightly less definitive or combative in an actual conversation. To be very clear, I am not expecting a well...
One of the things about nuance is that one might use the word "feel" to make things slightly less definitive or combative in an actual conversation. To be very clear, I am not expecting a well polished op ed piece, we are after all just people talking on an online forum. At the same time, sometimes it isn't a matter of nuance and simply one of being unclear.
Anyway, I appreciate the attempt at clarifying your point. You are absolutely right that we are all in this together and it is good that you seem to have taken a lot of steps in this area.
Nothing beyond that we've stagnated by not approving new generations of reactors and we still rely on Westinghouse tech from the 60s. More nuclear now!
Nothing beyond that we've stagnated by not approving new generations of reactors and we still rely on Westinghouse tech from the 60s. More nuclear now!
I wasn't sure what to comment here because what could I say that I assume we all don't already know. So I figured is link to this newsletter/substack https://substack.com/home/post/p-167207818
I wasn't sure what to comment here because what could I say that I assume we all don't already know. So I figured is link to this newsletter/substack
American in Europe here.
Totally aside from the air conditioner debate, can we talk about why Europe still has not discovered the existence of window screens?
Over here, opening a window means letting the cat escape, as well as inviting all manner of bugs into your house, including hummingbird-sized wasps.
Just come to Greece and see:
Point is that Europe is too big and our climate diverse enough, so such generalizations can't/don't apply
Just install them? They're not at all alien in Europe depending on location, and if they are it's because the local insects are harmless.
I did in one location; it was a 4-5 day long custom job for a 4-person home improvement crew.
See my response below for additional details.
As I said elsewhere, "Europe" is too big. This might be true for some countries, but it certainly isn't true for the Netherlands. I don't know any better than windows always having screens in front of them for most homes. There certainly isn't a limitation in choice either
Of course I'm just one person, personal experience, yada.
That said, I lived in The Hague (for the Americans; that's in the Netherlands) for 2 years, traveled extensively about the Randstad area, never saw a single window screen in anyone's home or business in my time there.
Additionally, there may well be clever add-on tricks for inserting window screens, but I never saw an installed window that looked like it was designed to include a screen.
When I lived in Hungary, we hired a home improvement crew to install window screens, and it was a Big Deal, custom design, custom measurements, custom cutting of wooden strips, etc ... every single window, plus the rear patio door, all being built separately, different size, different shape. It was a several-days-long job. That home had been built by people who did not know (or care) about the existence of window screens.
Now I'm in Germany, lived in 2 different areas, same deal ... no screen anywhere, and windows–apparently, at least–not even designed to accept 'em.
Edit to add: Looking out my window in Aachen right now, I can see ~100 windows across the street. A few have the fancy roll-down metal storm shutters, but not a single screen anywhere.
Huh, that genuinely does surprise me. Like I said, I don't know any better than that most people I know have screens for their windows. Though a lot of them have the kind you can take out and often those are frames placed from inside the house as you can't access the windows on upper floors easily from the outside. If you are expecting to see screens from the outside it makes sense, to me, that you haven't seen them much around here.
This I do recognize, except for it feeling like a big deal. All home improvement stores here will have a dedicated aisle with all sorts of solutions. From very cheap and a bit janky to a bit more expensive and solid. Where the janky solution basically is a roll of Velcro tape on the window frame which holds on to the screen mesh. And the solid solutions do require you to make some adjustments to the 4 parts that will make up the screen frame that fits in the window.
I suppose it is entirely possible there is some divide in the country I am not aware of with entire groups of people not having screens for their homes. I am just saying that the concept in itself is far from unknown here given the wide availability of screening solutions.
No matter how the screen is installed, you should be able to see it from the outside.
Maybe there's some "thing" in the Neth, that screens are rare along the coast (ocean winds, fewer bugs, holy seagulls, etc), but common inland?
More and more today, I'm seeing evidence that screen solutions/options are widely available, and yet many (most?) Europeans just don't bother.
Perhaps the biggest difference is, in the US, window units are - almost universally - designed and built to include screens (it would feel really weird to be in a home/flat that didn't have them), while here in the EU, you gotta show some initiative (and cash) to get 'em.
It's entirely possible it is a regional thing as well yeah. I certainly grew up more inland. I also have no reference on how common these are in the US. All I can say that at least in this part of Europe they are not some unknown thing and in my experience relatively common.
Here in Germany it's definitely at least possible to find window screens that attach with magnets and thus don't require drilling or other advanced installation. They're not as robust as proper window screens but they're a massive improvement over nothing at all. I was similarly shocked that they're so rare here.
Someone on another forum just mentioned the magnet-screens, too. That's probably an even better solution then US spring-loaded pins. I may have to give these a try.
They've been a lifesaver for me for sure.
I just saw this article on reddit: "France’s latest culture war flashpoint: air conditioning."
Of course France is not representative of the rest of Europe. But I do feel like Europeans seem to, at least online, have an aversion to AC.
Pretty sure AC penetration in Europe is super low compared to other places, such as most of the US. As an American, the thought of not having AC during this time of the year, when it can be in the 90s F (>32.2C) for multiple days in a row, is insane. Not even going to talk about the humidity.
I get that increased AC use means increased power consumption, which means increased energy production. And depending on how that energy is produced potentially means more carbon emissions. Which only makes things hotter. But I think letting people die during heatwaves in order to protect the environment isn't exactly the best tradeoff.
I know the climate is different too. But these European heatwaves seem like they're only becoming more common. Maybe even getting longer. Seems like every summer, for the last many summers, I've been hearing about killer heatwaves in Europe. I think it might be time for AC. Maybe there needs to be some regulation around it to help mitigate the affects on energy consumption and climate. Like I personally keep my AC between 76-78F (24.4-25.5) when I'm at home, depending on the time of day. Sometimes I'll even let it rise to 80F (26.6C). Maybe somehow only allow ACs to go no lower than that. Yeah, 26C is still warm, especially inside (having a fan pointed at me helps a lot), but it's still better than >32C and dying from heatstroke.
I think part of it really is they just didn't have such extreme heat waves in the past that called for it. I remember reading many stories about foreigners being shocked when they'd visit the US during heat waves since we also have high humidity to accompany it. The humidity is the real killer I think, I remember getting winded just walking from the car into the library on a day with 80F weather and strong humidity. I guess that combo isn't as common in Europe? Or, wasn't...
Little anecdote: we visited Paris last March and I had to buy new pajamas because the weather was in the 60's F, and the hotel room was too hot for my long pajama pants. We'd packed with cool spring weather in mind, but it ended up feeling like summer and our hotel lacked AC. After hearing most buildings and hotels in Paris lack AC, all I could think was how bad it'd be in the summer during the Olympics.
On that note, I think the other challenge with adding AC in Europe is just retrofitting all the old buildings. The US has a relatively recent history, so a lot of public buildings and houses have been constructed since the invention of air conditioning and had it in mind. Europe... Not so much.
No it definitely is. The difference now is the consistent days of heat just making the surroundings unbearable. In the past I'd know that a day or two/three of 30° would be counteracted by a good rainy day to cool it all down.
I'm in France right now and we had 30+ for almost two weeks straight, forcing us out of the sun even at 9am. It wasn't until it rained two days ago that everything became bearable again even with 30° outside.
Edit to add: would still not get AC. Temp management inside is fine. Warm days are warm, that's not necessarily a problem. I dislike the cold more.
It isn't, afaik there are no places with humidity and heat comparable to some US states. Another advantage in much of Europe is that we get actual winters, so there was a huge push to insulate buildings against heat loss in some countries, and insulation also protects against heat in summer if done well. My parents' house is really well insulated and when outside temperature approaches 35°C for a week (which is rare), the temperature inside may or may not climb up to 24° C. Zero need for AC. Within cities it can get much worse, especially in top floor appartments under the roof, which is not insulated in older buildings, but it's not exactly deadly levels of heat. ACs are however getting more common especially in those situations.
The real issue are southern countries that do not get bad winters, so they didn't do this wave of insulating their houses en masse, and while they don't really suffer form high humidity either, the temperatures can climb close to Texas levels there on occassion, which is simply too much. Plus some cities that are not even that far south but get worse heat waves due to having their own microclimate, like Paris. 40+° C in Paris is terrible and does kill old and sick people.
I don't think this actually serves as an advantage over most of the US. Until you get quite far north (like, the northern portions of Nordic countries), winters throughout most of Europe are very mild when compared to most of North America. A particularly bad winter here in Berlin is still far milder than even an average or relatively mild winter back in Cleveland -- despite Cleveland being on the same latitude as Florence. Buildings in parts of the US that aren't the south have to be just as well-insulated if not more so to survive much worse winters than the vast majority of even northern Europe, and they still usually have air conditioning because we're very used to hot summers like this. Insulation and other low-tech measures like closing curtains and blinds can protect against the heat milder summers like what they used to get here, but the sustained high heat that had been getting worse every year makes this no longer tenable.
Also, it nearly reached 40⁰C here in Berlin this week, so the inevitable deaths from heat are not limited to just southern Europe.
Testify.
Apologies, but people in the EU don't know what winter means.
I grew up in southern Wisconsin, which has legitimately, objectively more severe winters than Stockholm, despite being at about the same latitude as Rome.
Now I live in Aachen, which is further north than my brother in Canada. This last winter, we got about 7 cm of snow, while he got something like 2 1/2 m.
The EU is sooo screwed if the AMOC ever actually fails....
Part of that actually already is due to climate change. We used to get way more snow in Western Europe. I still remember as a child that snow was a given in the winter, now it is rare. But even back then it was less snow compared to the decades prior.
It's my understanding that northern America also has seen changes in snow fall due to climate change but in different ways where in some cases the snowfall can increase.
Anyway, we used to be fairly familiar with heavy snowfall, though I fully admit that we are less prepared for it these days given the change over the past two and half decades.
The min-max annual temperature range in New York really shouldn’t be classed as acceptable for human habitation…
Heh, I remember in my first semester in college we got emails warning us to wear scarves covering our mouths "to protect our lungs". Ever since then I've been wondering what sort of climate is ideal for humanity, because I feel like we're not meant for temperatures that are dangerous to just inhale.
Back in my old building I had a little split AC unit in a corner of the living room, with the outdoor unit in the balcony; it could cool down the living room if necessary (not the bedrooms). There were only 4 AC users in the building in total, and I attended condominium meetings in which non-AC owners complained endlessly (for hours) about AC owners, how the units were noisy, produced water, were ugly, etc etc. (my downstairs neighbor, also an AC owner, could not complain, thankfully).
That's the culture in Portugal. That place was incredibly hot, and a lot of people would rather stew in there - in fact they'd rather other people stewed in their homes than let them have AC. The red tape changes from place to place. In my brother's city, the city itself must approve any AC installations that are visible from the street.
When I moved to where I am, in what remains the largest investment I ever made into anything in my life so far, I installed AC in every room. People mocked me for it, saying this place was cooler than my previous home, which is true. Have I regretted it? Absolutely not. They complain about heat waves and I turn on the AC. I care about the environment, but I don't see the benefit in being miserable and unproductive all day long.
I think the sentiment is shifting. In my experience, in the past I thought that Aircon was unnessary. It was for just a few days a year, and you can cool your house before and after and weaher it out fairly well. Nowadays, we have aircon for the reason that heatwaves are getting more common and that we wantef to switch to electric heating. Many people are switching to heatpumps to heat their homes with electricity and with that you get aircon as a bonus.
European here. I honestly don’t get how anyone with access to running water (which I assume is basically everyone in the West) struggles through a heatwave. My apartment gets really hot, especially in the late afternoon. When it’s too much, I just take a quick cold-ish shower, cool down completely, and I’m good for 1-2 hours. Showers, a couple of fans, shades to block the sun, windows shut tight during the day, then wide open at night and early morning when it’s cooler, that’s it. Why would I need an AC sucking up tons of energy for hours?
Where I am (South Carolina), you’d be taking several showers every hour, and your house wouldn’t cool off at night because the low is above 20 C (68 F) and humid. Sometimes the evenings are worse than daytime in that regard.
This seems to be the majority take, but it’s utterly alien to me. I hate being physically uncomfortable - it’s distracting, it balloons to fill all my available focus, it completely blocks my ability to concentrate on what I should be doing and uses all that brainpower concentrating on something unpleasant instead.
I would happily pay what my AC unit cost to avoid even a single day of that, and it’s still going strong after five years of ever-increasing numbers of 30C+ summer days here in London.
American here. I think our heatwaves (and summer temperatures in general) have been historically been more intense than Europe. Several regions also tend to have pretty strong humidity attached to it, which makes it worse. High humidity prevents your sweat from evaporating so you and everything else become very sticky and hot, and it can be genuinely hard to breathe. And you aren't always in a position where you can shower to cool off whenever you get too hot.
The one time where I thought that people complaining about being unable to breathe with masks could actually have a point was when we went to New York City during a heat wave. The mask trapping my breath and sweat directly against my face absolutely made it even worse. We ended up going into a pharmacy just to get out of the heat for a couple minutes, and later bought cheap folding fans to fan ourselves just to try to get some relief.
So basically, for some parts of the US at least (especially for the southern states), air conditioning in summertime has been necessary even before climate change started really hitting. I know that it got standardized in more northern states during my mom's lifetime, since she recounted how during college students with asthma got priority on the newer dorm rooms with AC installed. Those students were the most popular people on campus on hot days.
It's the corn sweat.
It's not just the corn, but the large expanses of crops across major sections of the country all respirating their moisture out increase the wet bulb temperature.
Which means that cold shower doesn't relieve you once your internal body heat brings you back to temp, and the fan or natural breeze doesn't cool you off, it just moves the hot, damp air around.
Then when the lows aren't low enough to really let a house or apartment building cool off at night older and medically fragile people suffer the most, the fastest.
My family in Denver has similar high temps to me, but a strong breeze, low humidity and a low around 70°.
During the recent heat wave our low was in the low 80s the humidity was high, the daytime temp was 89-95° and the heat index was 106°... For like six days straight.
As a Denverite who was just in Chicago the last week: I am so thankful for our dry heat.
In Chicago, I'm sweating in the shade and it's just not going away and I'm just...hot all the time and cannot breathe. Yuck.
First, as some alluded to, much lower humidity than most of the US. My non-AC apartment kept it at 50%. Humidity can get bad here, but usually as a result of rain, which pretty much precludes a heat wave. YMMV regionally.
Second, building styles. Decent insulation and/or high thermal mass means your walls might take days and days to heat up to unpleasant levels. While it was 40 degrees outside, my apartment never rose above 28. And that in a city that didn't cool off below 20 at night. Conscious management like not cooking and opening windows whenever the outside is cool does help. YMMV per building.
It doesn't get bad enough often enough to justify AC. Or at least it didn't.
Czech Republic (middle Europe) here.
We don't have AC and we have 24-27 degrees inside for past week or two depending on time of day. We open windows for night when the outsode temperature falls down to say 13-14 degrees early in the morning and then close the windows through the day. We also have blinds and big parasol in front of french window (parasol 4x4 meters, french window is basically 2x2 meters glass door facing south).
We have above-ground pool that is between 27 and 32 degrees (depends on time of day and how sunny it is) and we make use of it.
We can live with the heat (it is above 30 degrees last couple of days) for a few weeks, there is no real need for AC. If this was for three months straight, it would probably be different.
I believe it is very different for countries around Mediterranean, they likely get another +10 degrees there, maybe even more. I believe they use AC a lot there.
I remember a number of years ago learning that the fossil fuel consumption in the Northeast of the United States (where I live) is dramatically higher than in the South over the course of a year. Why? Because we have to move a much higher temperature gradient in the winter to heat our homes than the South does to cool their homes. Sure, they heat a bit, too, but nothing like us.
I say this to remind Europe a bit that the feeling of pride for not needing AC isn't really a strong indicator of your climate change mitigation superiority. It's a reminder that, like many of us in the United States, we simply must rush to embrace heat pumps in massive numbers as quickly as possible.
You'll end up getting air conditioning as a knock on benefit, sure. You'll lose the feeling of prideful superiority of not needing the AC (a real downside), but your grandparents and excitable toddlers won't die in the yearly wet bulb months we'll surely start to experience in our lives.
I've got geothermal (really it's just a ground source heat pump) and solar panels on my home. I set my thermostat to 70°F year round (a stable temperature is the most efficient way to run a whole-home heat pump). I cover my entire electricity use until November while exporting to the grid. It takes until mid February to see an electricity bill, at which point I am consuming mostly natural gas based electricity, some hydro, and some nuclear. I am ashamed of that mix and wish my country would get its shit together. And in March/April, my solar begins to cover 100% of my needs again.
A 70°F year round home as the most efficient way to run my system is crazy town. Look it up though. It's true. I could go with 75°F as well, sure, and the transition days would bounce around by a week here or there. A coefficient of efficiency at 4-5 depending on the ground temperature at 447' below ground is the most amazing physics!
I don't recognize this pride argument you talk about, for me locally the argument I hear is usually that the real heat is only a few days at a time and a few weeks total which is true. But you'll be pleased to hear that at least in Northern EU heat pumps are indeed a big thing nowadays and as a homeowner you can even claim a subsidy. It's on my list for our home for next year. Can't wait, we're installing in floor heating to that will be used to cool too in the summer.
Hey I should also note, our lovely government in the United States just killed our 30% tax credit on the purchase and installation of heat pumps and solar panels for individual citizens. And it's being signed into law by the president today.
So uh. Good job still having those benefits you mentioned there @nachoman!
Yes I read about it. There's a lot of questionable things in that bill. Take care I hope for better times in the future!
That's awesome to hear! The electrification of home heating in the winter and escaping the reliance on fossil fuels and petro states is truly critical in the coming years - not decades. I'm proud to hear you're embracing that change on an individual level. I hope our policy makers can push hard, too.
Even if those radiant floors and heat pumps rely on natural gas next winter for you, they will not forever. But a natural gas furnace or an oil furnace will never really change substantially.
Yeah this year we are upgrading the wooden window frames to plastic ones with triple glass, that should make a huge difference. At this literal moments I'm preparing the floors for underfloor heating. Then comes cavity wall insulation, and next year I'll look into heat pumps and solar panels. I am happy we are in a position to do all this and would want do do even more if it all wasn't so god damn expensive haha.
Radiant floor makes life so luxurious. Enjoy and be proud of all those positive improvements!! Solar is excellent even when you're in northern latitudes IMHO!
Depending on which countries you count there are roughly between 30 to 44 countries in "Europe" many of them with very different climates. Even those that share similar climates often have different ways of handling extremes between them.
Basically, I feel like you are painting an overly broad picture here. Even more so when you consider the rest of your argument for heat pumps. As that brings to mind the subsidies for heat pumps and the fact that since 2023 new houses are required to be fitted with them as well.
If that is the case for other countries in Europe? I don't know, for some of them that might very well be the case. Certainly those that are part of the EU it is entirely possible that these rules are a result decisions made at that level.
Anyway, what I am trying to get is that it seems you are trying to convince an entire continent of people but are doing so in a way that is more likely to alienate them than anything else.
I think that's super fair. Saying the United States feels one way is a common trope as well. 48 contiguous states, two non, and many overseas territories. To say we have one opinion about anything is similarly unreasonable.
It would be, but your comment is a top level comment on an article talking about France and I don't see people really bring up the US in that way either. At least, not in this thread, to be honest it feels a bit disjointed. I guess I am just struggling a bit with the messaging here.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I read the article, read the comments, and decided to share my thoughts on the topic. My intent was not to insult, but to share my thoughts.
It can be hard to convey layers upon layers of nuance when writing a few short paragraphs of thought rather than something of op ed length. Hopefully you can see how I told a story about the non-homogeneous peoples across regions of the United States and how some of each of those groups' preconceived notions are incorrect and interpose that against the commentary I was making in the context of the topic at hand about the non-homogeneous peoples of Europe. One of the folks interacting with me, even, was from Northern Europe as opposed to from Paris. The article, frankly, is what made me think about disparate groups. It repeatedly enumerates multiple nations. Yet it's on politico dot eu.
We're all in the forthcoming heat waves together. Even if they're only acutely murdering some groups of us at a time.
One of the things about nuance is that one might use the word "feel" to make things slightly less definitive or combative in an actual conversation. To be very clear, I am not expecting a well polished op ed piece, we are after all just people talking on an online forum. At the same time, sometimes it isn't a matter of nuance and simply one of being unclear.
Anyway, I appreciate the attempt at clarifying your point. You are absolutely right that we are all in this together and it is good that you seem to have taken a lot of steps in this area.
What is so shameful about nuclear?
I think that was in reference to the “mostly natural gas” part of the statement.
Correct!
Nothing beyond that we've stagnated by not approving new generations of reactors and we still rely on Westinghouse tech from the 60s. More nuclear now!
I wasn't sure what to comment here because what could I say that I assume we all don't already know. So I figured is link to this newsletter/substack
https://substack.com/home/post/p-167207818