19 votes

Norway is reopening three gasfields that it shut down last century as demand from Europe for alternatives to Russian and Middle Eastern supply increases

10 comments

  1. [10]
    l_one
    Link
    Found an archive / paywall bypass link. I've been wondering if this would happen since I recently found out about these reserves that Norway had shut down. While ideally we should be more...

    Found an archive / paywall bypass link.

    I've been wondering if this would happen since I recently found out about these reserves that Norway had shut down. While ideally we should be more aggressively moving away from non-renewable / non-polluting energy sources... we are where we are, and it's simply true that we can't instantly get there from here.

    Definitely better for Europe to source energy from politically / strategically aligned sources than from Russia.

    12 votes
    1. [9]
      Pepetto
      Link Parent
      In a democracy, it's really hard to collectively chose to "lower" our standards of living (quotation marks on "lower" because I do not think a low carbon lifestyle is necessarily less enjoyable so...

      In a democracy, it's really hard to collectively chose to "lower" our standards of living (quotation marks on "lower" because I do not think a low carbon lifestyle is necessarily less enjoyable so long as society is organized properly around it, good priorities set, but most people will feel like it's a downgrade to not have a car, traveling less, and fewer things). The current geopolitical context would have been a pretty good excuse to raise prices, incentivizing a more frugal mindset, without facing the backlash of actually actively raising those prices...
      In this sense, reopening those fields seems like a missed opportunity for partial degrowth.

      3 votes
      1. [4]
        sparksbet
        Link Parent
        Energy prices in Europe did rise and there was associated backlash. To believe that there wouldn't be backlash over rising energy prices under these circumstances is extraordinarily naive.

        Energy prices in Europe did rise and there was associated backlash. To believe that there wouldn't be backlash over rising energy prices under these circumstances is extraordinarily naive.

        3 votes
        1. [3]
          Pepetto
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Well, yes, thank you for calling me naive btw, but that backlash isn't targeted at any political entity in particular, that's important. no-one is directly "responsible", so it would be better not...

          Well, yes, thank you for calling me naive btw, but that backlash isn't targeted at any political entity in particular, that's important. no-one is directly "responsible", so it would be better not to waste that opportunity. Can you imagine the riots if someone decided to actively introduce even something very reasonable like a 50% tax on fuel to fund rapid public transit upgrade? at the very least, chance of being reelected drop to zero.

          1 vote
          1. [2]
            sparksbet
            Link Parent
            Anger about rising prices for things that regular consumers have very little freedom to stop spending on, such as the gas used to heat their homes, is absolutely directed at their governments all...

            Anger about rising prices for things that regular consumers have very little freedom to stop spending on, such as the gas used to heat their homes, is absolutely directed at their governments all the time. The various parties' plans to bring down high energy prices was a major issue in the most recent German election, for example. While it's true that this falls short of the open riots you'd get if the government deliberately put policies in place to raise energy prices, it's absolutely not true that just letting the prices rise has no political consequences. It's always possible to come up with some worse policy that the electorate would hate even more.

            2 votes
            1. Pepetto
              Link Parent
              I guess you're right, people always go for the easy quick fix, not the long scale reliable one. Adressing high energy price could be done by encouraging frugality, finding alternatives, ect,...

              I guess you're right, people always go for the easy quick fix, not the long scale reliable one.
              Adressing high energy price could be done by encouraging frugality, finding alternatives, ect, instead of lowering the price directly.
              So we just kick the problem down for the next decade, where it'll be even harder to fix.

              1 vote
      2. [4]
        unkz
        Link Parent
        Spoken like someone with disposable income. For someone living on the edge, more money spent on heat means less money spent on food. This is some avocado toast logic.

        The current geopolitical context would have been a pretty good excuse to raise prices, incentivizing a more frugal mindset, without facing the backlash of actually actively raising those prices...

        Spoken like someone with disposable income. For someone living on the edge, more money spent on heat means less money spent on food. This is some avocado toast logic.

        2 votes
        1. [3]
          Pepetto
          Link Parent
          Pretty much everyone in the first world (even the very poor) lives like a king compared to people in the third world. I find it unfair to sacrifice the well being of the global south to provide...

          Pretty much everyone in the first world (even the very poor) lives like a king compared to people in the third world.
          I find it unfair to sacrifice the well being of the global south to provide the "poor" of the first world historic highs of consumption.
          You don't know my income. (also , for context, I live in France where everyone gets free healthcare and other somewhat adequate safety nets)

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            unkz
            Link Parent
            But I do know enough of your income to know that you think paying more for heating isn’t a big deal to you. Because you can make adjustments elsewhere. You aren’t on the edge.

            But I do know enough of your income to know that you think paying more for heating isn’t a big deal to you. Because you can make adjustments elsewhere. You aren’t on the edge.

            2 votes
            1. Pepetto
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              People often think they're "on the edge", even when they aren't. And in france, people even close to "on the edge" get help. This winter, my house was mostly at 15°C (a few time at 12, never above...

              People often think they're "on the edge", even when they aren't.
              And in france, people even close to "on the edge" get help.
              This winter, my house was mostly at 15°C (a few time at 12, never above 18). Just put on something warm.
              You are right, you know that paying more for heating isn’t a big deal for me, but that doesn't give you that much information in the end... maybe I like the cold!
              In the end, I think people won't tolerate any modification to their lifestyle unless they have no choice, and increasing energy cost (with safeties in place to protect the vulnerable) is the most freedom preserving way of encouraging frugality.

              2 votes