18 votes

US railroads should be nationalized

14 comments

  1. [4]
    drannex
    (edited )
    Link
    Not only is the biggest mistake the US made was deprioritizing the rail system in relation to infrastructure, but also economically, logistically, strategically, culturally, and socially. We need...

    Not only is the biggest mistake the US made was deprioritizing the rail system in relation to infrastructure, but also economically, logistically, strategically, culturally, and socially.

    We need to not only nationalize the rail system, but equally increase funding by a hundred fold, and we need to use the existing highway infrasture, remove redundant highways and convert them into powerful rail complexes connecting to not only the highway system, but to everywhere across the country.

    10 votes
    1. [2]
      spctrvl
      Link Parent
      Can you imagine the free advertising you'd get from high speed rail occupying what used to be an interior lane of an interstate zooming by standstill traffic at 200kph?

      Can you imagine the free advertising you'd get from high speed rail occupying what used to be an interior lane of an interstate zooming by standstill traffic at 200kph?

      7 votes
      1. drannex
        Link Parent
        I hadn't even considered that, would be absolutely insane the amount of public interest it would generate.

        I hadn't even considered that, would be absolutely insane the amount of public interest it would generate.

        5 votes
    2. Gyrfalcon
      Link Parent
      On this note, I recently read Supplying War: Logistics from Wallenstein to Patton by Martin Van Creveld. It focuses mostly on the logistical/operational side rather than the home front but the...

      Not only is the he biggest mistake the US made was deprioritizing the rail system in relation to infrastructure, but also economically, logistically, strategically, culturally, and socially.

      On this note, I recently read Supplying War: Logistics from Wallenstein to Patton by Martin Van Creveld. It focuses mostly on the logistical/operational side rather than the home front but the historical perspective is rather eye opening. There are few if any instances of a modern military force operating effectively more than 500 miles from the closest sea port or rail head, and that assumes that every step of the way works as intended. The we went so far as to create the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways while leaving railroads in private hands seems both wasteful and foolish when considering how much more useful rail can be to a military effort.

      6 votes
  2. [10]
    vord
    Link
    I have yet to see an example where deregulating and privatizing results in a net win for anybody but the owners of new monopoly. Doubly so for anything that is a natural monopoly like roads, rail,...

    I have yet to see an example where deregulating and privatizing results in a net win for anybody but the owners of new monopoly. Doubly so for anything that is a natural monopoly like roads, rail, pipes, wires.

    Energy deregultion one of the worst in this regard..I have yet to see an an alternative electric supplier that is cheaper and more reliable than the regulated utility.

    10 votes
    1. [9]
      j3n
      Link Parent
      How about airlines? Deregulation happened a bit too early for me to experience it first hand, but it's my impression that while airline travel might not be as fancy as it once was, deregulation...

      How about airlines? Deregulation happened a bit too early for me to experience it first hand, but it's my impression that while airline travel might not be as fancy as it once was, deregulation has dramatically lowered prices and in so doing dramatically expanded the number of people who can afford to fly for pleasure.

      4 votes
      1. [6]
        vord
        Link Parent
        Have you seen the number of times airlines have needed bailouts from the government, even well before COVID? Or how even the largest have filed for bankrupcy multiple times? And the prices never...

        Have you seen the number of times airlines have needed bailouts from the government, even well before COVID? Or how even the largest have filed for bankrupcy multiple times?

        And the prices never really came down.

        4 votes
        1. [5]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          According to the article, much of this is due to increased taxes and fuel costs, which seems independent of deregulation. But it's good that airlines mostly don't make money, right? Prices would...

          According to the article, much of this is due to increased taxes and fuel costs, which seems independent of deregulation. But it's good that airlines mostly don't make money, right? Prices would be higher.

          (On the other hand, from a climate change perspective, higher prices are good because they discourage air travel. We should have more carbon taxes.)

          5 votes
          1. [4]
            vord
            Link Parent
            Perhaps if prices were fixed the companies would have had a bigger incentive to push for more efficient planes. Or if prices did increase perhaps other travel, like high speed rail, might have...

            Perhaps if prices were fixed the companies would have had a bigger incentive to push for more efficient planes. Or if prices did increase perhaps other travel, like high speed rail, might have been a higher priority.

            We could play whatif for an eternity. Likely the answer is somewhere in the middle.

            But my main point is that post-deregulation, costs neither went down, nor the experience improved, for the user anyway. A customer doesn't care about the behind-the scenes, they just see an increased price tag and crappier service.

            And despite this, post-deregulation the airlines have not been able to reliably remain afloat without heavy government involvement. IMO every bailout to a company should result in a proportional nationalization of that company, because it's obvious they can't sustain themselves without that public money, thus should be more under public accountability.

            Incidentally, I think that's why it's shady that some companies don't integrate taxes and fees fully into their prices. I think it was GrubHub that had a 'Your prices are higher because your local government has a law that increases our costs', which feels a passive-aggeessive move to build support for a repeal.

            5 votes
            1. [3]
              skybrian
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              This is an odd argument because airlines tend to do things that result in worse customer service in pursuit of better efficiency. They are also buying more fuel efficient planes and trying harder...

              This is an odd argument because airlines tend to do things that result in worse customer service in pursuit of better efficiency. They are also buying more fuel efficient planes and trying harder to fly full planes (pandemic measures aside).

              There's no particular reason that making air travel more efficient should make customers any happier.

              Also, in normal times airlines don't get bailed out, I don't think?

              I agree it would be nicer if prices included all taxes, but it's also pretty eye-opening just how much money goes to taxes. State sales tax on rental cars in New York is 20% for example, and total fees were 28% for me.

              2 votes
              1. [2]
                vord
                Link Parent
                2012 was about as normal as it has been since 2001 and they were begging for assistance then too. I know it's useful sometimes to see tax rates, but seeing those high percentages is also what...

                Also, in normal times airlines don't get bailed out, I don't think?

                2012 was about as normal as it has been since 2001 and they were begging for assistance then too.

                I know it's useful sometimes to see tax rates, but seeing those high percentages is also what makes Libertarians foam at the mouth about taxation. I'd personally like to see a replacement of most taxes with a relatively simple LVT, transaction, and wealth/estate tax.

                I recall seeing a video, that Americans, contrary to self-held belief, are actually taxed more than most other countries and recieve far less from that taxation.

                1. skybrian
                  Link Parent
                  it looks like people were worried about American Airline’s pension fund. I don’t know what the result was, but underfunded pensions are a problem all over, including many city and state...

                  it looks like people were worried about American Airline’s pension fund. I don’t know what the result was, but underfunded pensions are a problem all over, including many city and state governments. It seems it’s too easy for management to make promises that someone else will need to pay long after both they and the workers aren’t working there anymore.

                  I’m generally in favor of 401k plans and similar retirement accounts, which are also better for people who switch jobs a lot and don’t result in these problems. And Social Security of course. (And UBI?)

      2. [2]
        drannex
        Link Parent
        I don't think deregulation is the reason for pricing being lower, I think prices are lower due to a lot more reliable and cost effective technology that has directly affected the cost of doing...

        I don't think deregulation is the reason for pricing being lower, I think prices are lower due to a lot more reliable and cost effective technology that has directly affected the cost of doing business (Deregulation happened in 1978).

        I also think that deregulation was negative benefit, as it forced thousands of companies out of business, and caused the creation of monopolies through allowing broad mergers and acquisitions. This trickled down into engineering firms as well, now we only have a handful of aircraft makers and engineers because they signed contracts with the biggest monopolies and drove countless engineering companies out of business as well, and likely caused pricing to now be higher than they would have been otherwise due to limited competition and consolidation of the market.

        3 votes
        1. nukeman
          Link Parent
          Ticket prices used to be directly set by the CAB. They also specified which airlines could fly which routes. On a New York to Los Angeles route, you might have had five airlines, all with very...

          Ticket prices used to be directly set by the CAB. They also specified which airlines could fly which routes. On a New York to Los Angeles route, you might have had five airlines, all with very similar (rather high) ticket prices. Today, you’d have 10+ with far reduced prices. The main tradeoff is that airlines used to compete on service, but now they compete on price (and as such, service has gone down the crapper).

          As for mergers, at least in the aircraft side, this seemed to be happening before 1978, and Boeing did have a head start with respect to having the first American jet.

          6 votes