I think this raises an excellent question: when private equity firms buy up struggling companies, hollow them out for scraps, and then leave them to die; why do they not receive anywhere near the...
I think this raises an excellent question: when private equity firms buy up struggling companies, hollow them out for scraps, and then leave them to die; why do they not receive anywhere near the same vitriol or criticism as protestors who loot a convenience store?
Personally, I think that the actions of private equity firms have done irreparable damage to this country, and that just because they operated within the confines of the law does not make it just or okay.
“Ask for work. If they don't give you work, ask for bread. If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.” There are plenty of jobs that need done, but nobody is willing to pay. Food is...
why do they not receive anywhere near the same vitriol or criticism as protestors who loot a convenience store?
“Ask for work. If they don't give you work, ask for bread. If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.”
There are plenty of jobs that need done, but nobody is willing to pay. Food is gated behind payments. Equity firms that destroy people's livelyhoods to cash out are commiting a violent offense, and should be treated as such.
Protesters do insignifcant damage (assuming no people are harmed). Storefronts can be repaired, goods replaced. Have no sympathy for the property owner... damaging property is not a violent crime.
But the police love shooting protesters, so it makes sense the media villifies them more.
The 1%ers will be fine. Target will be fine. The small business owners affected by this won't be fine. Those who lose their jobs because their employer went out of business won't be fine. Those...
The 1%ers will be fine. Target will be fine. The small business owners affected by this won't be fine. Those who lose their jobs because their employer went out of business won't be fine. Those who could have moved into the affordable housing complex they burned down won't be fine. This isn't some glorious proletariat revolution against the rich. These are bad people taking advantage of the situation to do bad things. This will disproportionately hurt the poor.
Small business job creation is a myth. We only need affordable housing complexes because housing is unaffordable. There are more empty houses than homeless. Hell, there's 3 vacant, bank-owned,...
The small business owners affected by this won't be fine. Those who lose their jobs because their employer went out of business won't be fine.
Those who could have moved into the affordable housing complex they burned down won't be fine.
We only need affordable housing complexes because housing is unaffordable. There are more empty houses than homeless. Hell, there's 3 vacant, bank-owned, abandoned houses on my block alone. They are now falling apart because of years of disrepair. Houses are for living, not an investment vehicle.
This isn't some glorious proletariat revolution against the rich. These are bad people taking advantage of the situation to do bad things. This will disproportionately hurt the poor.
It is rioting against the brutality of the police state. The rioters are not bad people, they are desparate and angry people. They are the poor people, and wouldn't be rioting if they were not already hurting.
This is the kind of thing that sparks revolutions. It likely won't (police state will insure that), but people don't revolt because they're happy and bored.
Your reply is so nebulous and doesn't actually address any of the points the post you're replying to made. The link you posted doesn't say that small business job creation is a myth, and even if...
Your reply is so nebulous and doesn't actually address any of the points the post you're replying to made. The link you posted doesn't say that small business job creation is a myth, and even if it did, the post you're replying to didn't say anything about small business job creation. If you work for a small business, which many people do, and that business is burned down, you just lost your job. Period. That's a bad thing.
The fact of why we need affordable housing complexes is irrelevant. If your apartment building burns down, you're now homeless and most of your possessions are gone. Period. That's a bad thing.
You're talking about the issue as if we're in a classroom discussing some hypothetical situation from a utilitarian perspective. This is not that. These are actual, real people's lives that are worse off because of looting and vandalism.
Yes, I am talking about it in a hypothetical classroom situation. Because I can't change what's happening. But perhaps I can sway a mind or two about calling looters and vandals bad people. Happy...
You're talking about the issue as if we're in a classroom discussing some hypothetical situation from a utilitarian perspective. This is not that. These are actual, real people's lives that are worse off because of looting and vandalism.
Yes, I am talking about it in a hypothetical classroom situation. Because I can't change what's happening. But perhaps I can sway a mind or two about calling looters and vandals bad people.
Happy people don't riot, chronically abused people do. If they were not poor, they wouldn't be looting.
Part of trying to shift that system is to teach others, to get them to embrace policies and work towards change so we don't need riots to get a message heard.
Everyone is quick to blame the rioters, and to quell them by force under the guise of 'restoring the peace.' But nobody blames the people who created the conditions that caused the riot.
If you don't want riots, prevent their causes:
Dismantle the police state
Raise wages
Improve social safety nets
If it takes burning down a police station to get them to stop murdering you, so be it.
It's not burning a police station that I'm talking about. Police stations are taxpayer funded, no one relies on them for work or their livelihood. If people want to burn one down as a symbol of...
It's not burning a police station that I'm talking about. Police stations are taxpayer funded, no one relies on them for work or their livelihood. If people want to burn one down as a symbol of oppression, sure, who cares?
I'm talking about completely unrelated businesses and residences. How does destroying a locally owned barber shop help anyone? Did that barber somehow have something to do with George Floyd's death? Does that business owner losing his livelihood and his employees losing their jobs somehow benefit the community?
Imagine if a manor lord just straight up murdered one of there serfs in cold blood in front of witnesses without fear of consequences, sparking what would essentially a riot on the manor farm...
Imagine if a manor lord just straight up murdered one of there serfs in cold blood in front of witnesses without fear of consequences, sparking what would essentially a riot on the manor farm carried out by the serfs. Now imagine there was one serf, who stood at the upper echelons of serf hierarchy mind you, who kept on high horsing about how these rabble rousers were actually only making life harder for themselves because it will lead to them losing their jobs as tenant farmers.
Yeah, but you'd also call burning the crop and destroying the farm, which is the ultimate symbol of the manor's oppression, "targeting their fellow serfs". And that's my point.
Yeah, but you'd also call burning the crop and destroying the farm, which is the ultimate symbol of the manor's oppression, "targeting their fellow serfs". And that's my point.
Yes, it's very easy to justify if you put everyone into one of two categories, "us" and "them", and then put completely unrelated small businesses in the "them" category, and the people destroying...
Yes, it's very easy to justify if you put everyone into one of two categories, "us" and "them", and then put completely unrelated small businesses in the "them" category, and the people destroying those businesses in the "us" category. That doesn't actually make any sense whatsoever to do though, and is just a really weirdly adamant mental ju jitsu attempt to make destroying the property of someone who has absolutely nothing to do with the unjustified killing.
Accusing anyone who riots of being "bad people" is remarkably dismissive of the issues at hand, and incredibly naive, IMO. Everyone (even "good" people) has a breaking point, and when faced with...
Accusing anyone who riots of being "bad people" is remarkably dismissive of the issues at hand, and incredibly naive, IMO. Everyone (even "good" people) has a breaking point, and when faced with seemingly insurmountable systemic injustice, and witnessing time and again as law enforcement gets off scott-free after killing innocent people of color, can you seriously blame people for rioting (even if some of the damage turns out to be self-inflicted wounds)?
Well somehow the vast majority of low income POC (I assume) managed to just... not destroy their local businesses to the detriment of the working class? despite being most affected by the issues...
Well somehow the vast majority of low income POC (I assume) managed to just... not destroy their local businesses to the detriment of the working class? despite being most affected by the issues you mentioned, so I don't think that's really a good justification.
Well clearly the literally years of large-scale, peaceful BLM protests haven't changed jack shit at the institutional level... so what do you suggest people do?
Well clearly the literally years of large-scale, peaceful BLM protests haven't changed jack shit at the institutional level... so what do you suggest people do?
The problem is with the police, not the local business owners. If the rioters gave a damn about George Floyd they should have confronted the police (not just spray painting ACAB on the window or...
The problem is with the police, not the local business owners. If the rioters gave a damn about George Floyd they should have confronted the police (not just spray painting ACAB on the window or whatever). Not necessarily advocating armed conflict but would it really be unjustified? But instead they looted fucking Target.
They DID confront the police (and still are)! One of the very first things that happened two days ago was the 3rd Precinct's parking lot being raided and their squad cars vandalized, which...
If the rioters gave a damn about George Floyd they should have confronted the police (not just spray painting ACAB on the window or whatever).
And I'm not denying that some involved in the riots are bad actors just there to loot... but given the force that the police (and soon National Guard, who have been called in) can bring to bear on the protestors, sometimes the only outlet for even well intentioned rioters rage is going to be incidental and more vulnerable targets, such as stores and other less defended properties. Unfortunately even good people with good intentions can get caught up in the mob mentality that goes along with rioting.
Well, its an interesting contrast we have drawn here. Does this cop's bad action spoil the rest of the work done by all the good cops? In your previous comment you seemed to imply that there are a...
Exemplary
Well, its an interesting contrast we have drawn here. Does this cop's bad action spoil the rest of the work done by all the good cops? In your previous comment you seemed to imply that there are a few rioters out there that are bad actors and have ill-intentions, but the actions taken towards innocents are justified? Can that same logic not be applied here?
Do the police not handle a multitude of situations daily that are of the benefit to the community? I'm taking a look at the Minneapolis Use Of Force, specifically the 3rd Precinct and I see their use of force seems low. Looking at just last year, there were 69,709 calls for service, of which only 14 resulted in force. Plus, they are averaging ~191 calls a day. I have to wonder what are the real consequences for getting rid of their police station. I also have to ponder what the threshold is for justifiable violence/destruction towards ones own community. Would the situation be different if the rioters had guns and were shooting people? What if they set the entire city on fire? Have we drawn the line on what we consider to be a justified violent response?
And to be clear, I'm not taking the side of the police specifically. I think what that officer did was abhorrent. I think our justice system suffers from baked-in systemic justice. However, the sadness that I feel for the Minneapolis community is the same sadness that I feel for the loss of a life at the hands of a racist and incompetent police officer. There will be real-world consequences for the actions of the looters, just as this rioting is the real-world consequence of killing unarmed black men repeatedly. At what point in this chain of events will there be accountability and where in the chain do we place responsibility?
When the blue wall of silence prevents the "good" police from speaking out against these bad ones, IMO yes, absolutely. And in this case, for proof that blue wall is still firmly in place in...
Does this cop's bad action spoil the rest of the work done by all the good cops?
When the blue wall of silence prevents the "good" police from speaking out against these bad ones, IMO yes, absolutely. And in this case, for proof that blue wall is still firmly in place in Minneapolis, all you need do is look at the initial police statements after the incident where they claimed that “He was ordered to step from his car" and “After he got out, he physically resisted officers” which has now been shown to be a bald-faced lie. Not that even if it were true it would have justified killing him.
Derek Chauvin, age 44, was identified as the officer who pinned Floyd to the ground by kneeling on his neck.[23] He had been an officer in the Minneapolis Police Department since around 2001.[23] Chauvin had 18 complaints on his official record, two of which ended in discipline from the department including official letters of reprimand.[24] He had been involved in three police shootings, one of which was fatal.[23][25][26]
Officer Tou Thao went through the police academy in 2009 and was hired to a full-time position in 2012. In 2017, Thao was a defendant in an excessive use of force lawsuit that was settled out of court for $25,000.[23]
The fact that they were still employed and on active duty also says a lot about the 3rd Precinct, IMO.
As for the rest of your comment and questions. When do consistently unaddressed systemic injustices and repeated incidents of excessive force with seemingly no repercussions for those involved warrant rioting and destruction of property? I think that's something each of us has to answer for ourselves, and is better answered by those in the community where such injustices are taking place. And clearly a large enough segment of the population there thinks the time for rioting has come that the police have lost control of the situation.
And in this case I too am definitely on the side of the rioters. If the people in charge refuse to institute meaningful change after years of peaceful BLM protests, then maybe it's time to burn some shit down to make them finally take notice and take action.
p.s. Do me a favor and watch the full video of Floyd being slowly choked to death.... then come back and let me know how you feel about the riots: WARNING, DISTURBING CONTENT! It's one of the most infuriating and heartbreaking things I have ever watched.
Absolutely one bad cop spoils the actions of the good cops if the bad cop is not held accountable. It erodes public trust in the police force -- how can you trust that a police officer doesn't...
Does this cop's bad action spoil the rest of the work done by all the good cops? In your previous comment you seemed to imply that there are a few rioters out there that are bad actors and have ill-intentions, but the actions taken towards innocents are justified? Can that same logic not be applied here?
Absolutely one bad cop spoils the actions of the good cops if the bad cop is not held accountable. It erodes public trust in the police force -- how can you trust that a police officer doesn't want to kill you if there are cops who kill people in broad daylight and see no consequences?
The same logic cannot be applied to protestors. Protestors do not go through training, they do not swear an oath, and they are not a state organization. Yet, if a protestor murdered someone and there was clear video proof, they would be arrested and charged. Why is the bad cop not arrested?
Tell me, how does standing idly by while your coworker murders someone make you a "good cop"? Have our standards fallen so low that only the people who actively murder are bad and everyone else is...
Does this cop's bad action spoil the rest of the work done by all the good cops?
Tell me, how does standing idly by while your coworker murders someone make you a "good cop"? Have our standards fallen so low that only the people who actively murder are bad and everyone else is good?
Partially, I'm not sure most people have a good idea what private equity firms do. Also, businesses fail all the time and there are struggling companies that might have failed anyway, possibly faster.
Partially, I'm not sure most people have a good idea what private equity firms do. Also, businesses fail all the time and there are struggling companies that might have failed anyway, possibly faster.
And on a mildly related note: it's nice to see some satire on Tildes. You can still have decent discussions about complex real world topics, which demonstrates that occasionally, these sorts of...
And on a mildly related note: it's nice to see some satire on Tildes. You can still have decent discussions about complex real world topics, which demonstrates that occasionally, these sorts of posts make quality submissions—especially when OP leads with real-world questions.
I think this raises an excellent question: when private equity firms buy up struggling companies, hollow them out for scraps, and then leave them to die; why do they not receive anywhere near the same vitriol or criticism as protestors who loot a convenience store?
Personally, I think that the actions of private equity firms have done irreparable damage to this country, and that just because they operated within the confines of the law does not make it just or okay.
“Ask for work. If they don't give you work, ask for bread. If they do not give you work or bread, then take bread.”
There are plenty of jobs that need done, but nobody is willing to pay. Food is gated behind payments. Equity firms that destroy people's livelyhoods to cash out are commiting a violent offense, and should be treated as such.
Protesters do insignifcant damage (assuming no people are harmed). Storefronts can be repaired, goods replaced. Have no sympathy for the property owner... damaging property is not a violent crime.
But the police love shooting protesters, so it makes sense the media villifies them more.
The 1%ers will be fine. Target will be fine. The small business owners affected by this won't be fine. Those who lose their jobs because their employer went out of business won't be fine. Those who could have moved into the affordable housing complex they burned down won't be fine. This isn't some glorious proletariat revolution against the rich. These are bad people taking advantage of the situation to do bad things. This will disproportionately hurt the poor.
Small business job creation is a myth.
We only need affordable housing complexes because housing is unaffordable. There are more empty houses than homeless. Hell, there's 3 vacant, bank-owned, abandoned houses on my block alone. They are now falling apart because of years of disrepair. Houses are for living, not an investment vehicle.
It is rioting against the brutality of the police state. The rioters are not bad people, they are desparate and angry people. They are the poor people, and wouldn't be rioting if they were not already hurting.
This is the kind of thing that sparks revolutions. It likely won't (police state will insure that), but people don't revolt because they're happy and bored.
Your reply is so nebulous and doesn't actually address any of the points the post you're replying to made. The link you posted doesn't say that small business job creation is a myth, and even if it did, the post you're replying to didn't say anything about small business job creation. If you work for a small business, which many people do, and that business is burned down, you just lost your job. Period. That's a bad thing.
The fact of why we need affordable housing complexes is irrelevant. If your apartment building burns down, you're now homeless and most of your possessions are gone. Period. That's a bad thing.
You're talking about the issue as if we're in a classroom discussing some hypothetical situation from a utilitarian perspective. This is not that. These are actual, real people's lives that are worse off because of looting and vandalism.
Yes, I am talking about it in a hypothetical classroom situation. Because I can't change what's happening. But perhaps I can sway a mind or two about calling looters and vandals bad people.
Happy people don't riot, chronically abused people do. If they were not poor, they wouldn't be looting.
Part of trying to shift that system is to teach others, to get them to embrace policies and work towards change so we don't need riots to get a message heard.
Everyone is quick to blame the rioters, and to quell them by force under the guise of 'restoring the peace.' But nobody blames the people who created the conditions that caused the riot.
If you don't want riots, prevent their causes:
If it takes burning down a police station to get them to stop murdering you, so be it.
It's not burning a police station that I'm talking about. Police stations are taxpayer funded, no one relies on them for work or their livelihood. If people want to burn one down as a symbol of oppression, sure, who cares?
I'm talking about completely unrelated businesses and residences. How does destroying a locally owned barber shop help anyone? Did that barber somehow have something to do with George Floyd's death? Does that business owner losing his livelihood and his employees losing their jobs somehow benefit the community?
Imagine if a manor lord just straight up murdered one of there serfs in cold blood in front of witnesses without fear of consequences, sparking what would essentially a riot on the manor farm carried out by the serfs. Now imagine there was one serf, who stood at the upper echelons of serf hierarchy mind you, who kept on high horsing about how these rabble rousers were actually only making life harder for themselves because it will lead to them losing their jobs as tenant farmers.
My point was they should target the manor lord, not their fellow serfs.
Yeah, but you'd also call burning the crop and destroying the farm, which is the ultimate symbol of the manor's oppression, "targeting their fellow serfs". And that's my point.
I'm confused. How are small businesses "the ultimate symbol" of police brutality?
Yes, it's very easy to justify if you put everyone into one of two categories, "us" and "them", and then put completely unrelated small businesses in the "them" category, and the people destroying those businesses in the "us" category. That doesn't actually make any sense whatsoever to do though, and is just a really weirdly adamant mental ju jitsu attempt to make destroying the property of someone who has absolutely nothing to do with the unjustified killing.
Accusing anyone who riots of being "bad people" is remarkably dismissive of the issues at hand, and incredibly naive, IMO. Everyone (even "good" people) has a breaking point, and when faced with seemingly insurmountable systemic injustice, and witnessing time and again as law enforcement gets off scott-free after killing innocent people of color, can you seriously blame people for rioting (even if some of the damage turns out to be self-inflicted wounds)?
Well somehow the vast majority of low income POC (I assume) managed to just... not destroy their local businesses to the detriment of the working class? despite being most affected by the issues you mentioned, so I don't think that's really a good justification.
Well clearly the literally years of large-scale, peaceful BLM protests haven't changed jack shit at the institutional level... so what do you suggest people do?
The problem is with the police, not the local business owners. If the rioters gave a damn about George Floyd they should have confronted the police (not just spray painting ACAB on the window or whatever). Not necessarily advocating armed conflict but would it really be unjustified? But instead they looted fucking Target.
They DID confront the police (and still are)! One of the very first things that happened two days ago was the 3rd Precinct's parking lot being raided and their squad cars vandalized, which resulted in the protestors being teargassed and chased off. And the latest news is that the 3rd Precinct has now been raided and set on fire.
And I'm not denying that some involved in the riots are bad actors just there to loot... but given the force that the police (and soon National Guard, who have been called in) can bring to bear on the protestors, sometimes the only outlet for even well intentioned rioters rage is going to be incidental and more vulnerable targets, such as stores and other less defended properties. Unfortunately even good people with good intentions can get caught up in the mob mentality that goes along with rioting.
It would suck to live in the 3rd Precinct and really need the police tomorrow.
It would suck to have the 3rd precinct police called on you and be killed for no reason.
Yeah, because officers of the 3rd Precinct have really shown themselves to be true servants of the people. /s
Well, its an interesting contrast we have drawn here. Does this cop's bad action spoil the rest of the work done by all the good cops? In your previous comment you seemed to imply that there are a few rioters out there that are bad actors and have ill-intentions, but the actions taken towards innocents are justified? Can that same logic not be applied here?
Do the police not handle a multitude of situations daily that are of the benefit to the community? I'm taking a look at the Minneapolis Use Of Force, specifically the 3rd Precinct and I see their use of force seems low. Looking at just last year, there were 69,709 calls for service, of which only 14 resulted in force. Plus, they are averaging ~191 calls a day. I have to wonder what are the real consequences for getting rid of their police station. I also have to ponder what the threshold is for justifiable violence/destruction towards ones own community. Would the situation be different if the rioters had guns and were shooting people? What if they set the entire city on fire? Have we drawn the line on what we consider to be a justified violent response?
And to be clear, I'm not taking the side of the police specifically. I think what that officer did was abhorrent. I think our justice system suffers from baked-in systemic justice. However, the sadness that I feel for the Minneapolis community is the same sadness that I feel for the loss of a life at the hands of a racist and incompetent police officer. There will be real-world consequences for the actions of the looters, just as this rioting is the real-world consequence of killing unarmed black men repeatedly. At what point in this chain of events will there be accountability and where in the chain do we place responsibility?
When the blue wall of silence prevents the "good" police from speaking out against these bad ones, IMO yes, absolutely. And in this case, for proof that blue wall is still firmly in place in Minneapolis, all you need do is look at the initial police statements after the incident where they claimed that “He was ordered to step from his car" and “After he got out, he physically resisted officers” which has now been shown to be a bald-faced lie. Not that even if it were true it would have justified killing him.
And as for the officers involved:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_George_Floyd#Police_officers
The fact that they were still employed and on active duty also says a lot about the 3rd Precinct, IMO.
As for the rest of your comment and questions. When do consistently unaddressed systemic injustices and repeated incidents of excessive force with seemingly no repercussions for those involved warrant rioting and destruction of property? I think that's something each of us has to answer for ourselves, and is better answered by those in the community where such injustices are taking place. And clearly a large enough segment of the population there thinks the time for rioting has come that the police have lost control of the situation.
And in this case I too am definitely on the side of the rioters. If the people in charge refuse to institute meaningful change after years of peaceful BLM protests, then maybe it's time to burn some shit down to make them finally take notice and take action.
p.s. Do me a favor and watch the full video of Floyd being slowly choked to death.... then come back and let me know how you feel about the riots: WARNING, DISTURBING CONTENT! It's one of the most infuriating and heartbreaking things I have ever watched.
Absolutely one bad cop spoils the actions of the good cops if the bad cop is not held accountable. It erodes public trust in the police force -- how can you trust that a police officer doesn't want to kill you if there are cops who kill people in broad daylight and see no consequences?
The same logic cannot be applied to protestors. Protestors do not go through training, they do not swear an oath, and they are not a state organization. Yet, if a protestor murdered someone and there was clear video proof, they would be arrested and charged. Why is the bad cop not arrested?
Tell me, how does standing idly by while your coworker murders someone make you a "good cop"? Have our standards fallen so low that only the people who actively murder are bad and everyone else is good?
I'm glad to hear that! Thanks for letting me know.
maybe you shouldn't
https://twitter.com/SoQUALity/status/1266218293343461376?s=19
Bad phrasing. I was assuming "the vast majority of low income POC... managed to... not destroy their local businesses". Not that they were POC.
Partially, I'm not sure most people have a good idea what private equity firms do. Also, businesses fail all the time and there are struggling companies that might have failed anyway, possibly faster.
I am consistently in awe of how on point The Onion continues to be.
And on a mildly related note: it's nice to see some satire on Tildes. You can still have decent discussions about complex real world topics, which demonstrates that occasionally, these sorts of posts make quality submissions—especially when OP leads with real-world questions.
Thanks @Flashynuff.
Good satire raises questions about reality.