This continues to be a pretty interesting topic. I think until Twitch figures out some way to pull itself out of its own dumpster fire, then anything that happens on Twitch will necessarily be...
This continues to be a pretty interesting topic.
I think until Twitch figures out some way to pull itself out of its own dumpster fire, then anything that happens on Twitch will necessarily be viewed through the lens of, "What is the terrible Twitch community going to do with this?" That's an unfortunate issue and I think it's going to be difficult to overcome. I'm not sure why young men feel like it's okay to be unadulterated assholes when given even the slightest bit of anonymity, but this does touch on a subject that I'm always interested, which is the idea of consequence free speech.
The internet is rapidly becoming a place where anything can be said, which means that the things that we say have no consequences to them. This is horrendous. When we say awful things in person, people can associate those ideas with us as people, and there are natural consequences. For example, if Person A says something sexist, then everyone around him can think, "Hey, Person A is sexist! I don't like that." They may disassociate with him, and his social status declines. He's still free to say the things he wants to say, but he is not immune to consequence.
Online, it is quite different. Person B says something sexist online. If anyone responds, they're "triggered". People cannot disassociate from Person B, because his online self is nebulous and he can just make new accounts at will. Hey may not even believe the sexist things that he's saying.
There needs to be some kind of accountability for the things that people say and do online, especially in a place like Twitch Chat, which seems to have a lot of people in their formative years.
You already mentioned why this'd be next to impossible: The systems that have tried to tie online accounts to real identities have been met with overwhelming opposition, see Google+ and YouTube.
There needs to be some kind of accountability for the things that people say and do online, especially in a place like Twitch Chat, which seems to have a lot of people in their formative years.
You already mentioned why this'd be next to impossible:
online self is nebulous and he can just make new accounts at will
The systems that have tried to tie online accounts to real identities have been met with overwhelming opposition, see Google+ and YouTube.
Adding on to the discussion from yesterday, a large number of female streamers have responded to Ninja's comments about not wanting to stream with women. I think it is important to get some...
Adding on to the discussion from yesterday, a large number of female streamers have responded to Ninja's comments about not wanting to stream with women.
I think it is important to get some perspectives from actual women streamers in this discussion, rather than having it just be Ninja's opinion being discussed.
A few examples from the article:
Imane “Pokimane” Anys said during a stream last Saturday, “It sucks that things like [Blevins’ decision] have to be made into a big deal when I don’t think they have to be. Furthermore, she argued that Blevins’ claims that he hasn’t received criticism from female streamers were due to the fact that he hadn’t publicly spoken about his decision before, rather than a lack of objection.
We're saying that his saying he won't is problematic and doesn't help in any way for women making their way in the industry that constantly calls anyone with tits a thot.
Seeing tweets twisting Ninja’s decision to not playing w/ women. YouTube clips/clickbaits the worst for views. People are gullible. To hear rumors like “I heard he’s cheating on you” is 24/7 toxic to a relationship. Respect decisions that limit drama in people’s personal lives
y’all if @Ninja actually did stream with a girl it would be a disaster. this community is a toxic sexist shitshow and she would be labeled his side bitch, relentlessly harassed for being a homewrecking slut and spammed with “begone thot” trolls etc etc etc fuck that
While I understand Ninja's reasoning and respect his decision, I do have to say I don't necessarily agree with it. Twitch is already a rough place for women, with us often being expected to "prove ourselves as real gamers". I feel like exuding women from your streams. Because of the way other people view it, in a way, reinforces that mindset. While I'm sure that's not Ninja's intention, the thought of someone (not even necessarily a top streamer) not wanting to collaborate with me as a creator because of my gender feels demeaning.
It’s a narrative that erases the possibility for straight men and women to be friends and collaborate. It fucks with gay and straight men being friends. It fucks with pan and bi folks existing and not being seen as fuck-crazed maniacs.
"hey ninja, women have a harder time growing as streamers cause they're harassed endlessly and not taken seriously, how're you going to use your huge platform/audience to help?" "well my plan is to completely ignore them all because there might be some little rumors."
I am curious if any of these comments form women in the industry changes people's minds at all on the discussion.
I don't. Tyler's choice makes a lot of sense with how gaming culture and internet culture works. He is protecting himself, his brand and his marriage . There is nothing wrong with that, he's not...
I think it is important to get some perspectives from actual women streamers in this discussion,
I don't.
Tyler's choice makes a lot of sense with how gaming culture and internet culture works. He is protecting himself, his brand and his marriage . There is nothing wrong with that, he's not the one that created the sexism in the industry he is just working around it. It's just safer for him to avoid the issue entirely and that makes sense. Other people's opinions on his personal choice, regardless of their gender, are irrelevant to his choice.
I want to be positive, but holy crap is that ever a head-in-the-sand point of view. "This sexist thing is happening! Let's not even talk to the people it has an effect on!"
I think it is important to get some perspectives from actual women streamers in this discussion,
I don't.
I want to be positive, but holy crap is that ever a head-in-the-sand point of view.
"This sexist thing is happening! Let's not even talk to the people it has an effect on!"
It is his personal choice, it is his job, his career and his life. I get that you guys are trying to turn this into a topic about feminism in gaming, but in reality it's not. Other people's...
It is his personal choice, it is his job, his career and his life.
I get that you guys are trying to turn this into a topic about feminism in gaming, but in reality it's not.
Other people's opinions on Tyler's choice are irrelevant.
True, but that doesn't make it not sexist. I do a lot of things that are personal choices in my job, career, and life, and people that experience that can make judgments about me based on those...
It is his personal choice, it is his job, his career and his life.
True, but that doesn't make it not sexist. I do a lot of things that are personal choices in my job, career, and life, and people that experience that can make judgments about me based on those choices. In this case, he's chosen a job that is under public scrutiny, and he has made a choice that is intrinsically sexist. The reasons for him making that choice are potentially understandable, but that doesn't make him immune to criticism or immune to the results of the choices that he has made.
Other people's opinions on his choice are relevant because our choices do not exist in a vacuum, and they have an effect on other people. His choices are causing things to happen (or not happen), and so people can and should have opinions on those things.
This isn't a consequence free existence.
Furthermore, if you think that other people's opinions on what he's doing are irrelevant, then I would say by the same logic, it's irrelevant to post about those other people's opinions. You're in a thread talking about it; is it really irrelevant?
It's way easier to just not take part in it if you find it unimportant. And if you're point is that it's not important, you're ascribing importance to it merely be responding, based on how Tildes...
It's way easier to just not take part in it if you find it unimportant. And if you're point is that it's not important, you're ascribing importance to it merely be responding, based on how Tildes works. If you want it to be less visible, then ignore it.
Also, you can filter this out: the tag women in games covers both, and if Dubs keeps going as they are, the next one will probably get appropriately tagged as well.
Yeah, I will continue sharing pieces like this in the future as it is a topic that interests me a lot. I love video games and have been playing them since as far as I can remember, but I am really...
Yeah, I will continue sharing pieces like this in the future as it is a topic that interests me a lot.
I love video games and have been playing them since as far as I can remember, but I am really embarrassed by the toxicity within the gaming community, and in particular how it treats women, minorities, and LGBT.
I think these are important discussions to have and I am happy to hear others thoughts on them and I think Tildes can provide a great space for this dialogue.
Quite frankly I don't feel like we should be putting the weight of the world on this guy. There are plenty of other streamers out there playing plenty of other games with females or female...
Quite frankly I don't feel like we should be putting the weight of the world on this guy. There are plenty of other streamers out there playing plenty of other games with females or female streamers streaming with other females. Why does one guy not conforming throw a wrench in their (their being the population collectively outraged at Tyler's decision) plan? Hell, there are even female streamers who aren't playing the next big thing on Twitch (Personally I feel like streamers who only stream the biggest game atm are pretty shallow) and are trying to make it by playing the games they love. Do any female streamers even want to play Fortnite with Tyler besides the few that have spoken about the issue? Tyler isn't the only figurehead who can help out females on Twitch, and honestly the whole needing a male to help females on twitch thing seems kinda hypocritical. I'd dig the shit out of a stream with a bunch of females playing their favorite games. There's passion there; not playing a FotM (in spirit) game to get more views. Not to mention if said female streamer played Fortnite once, they'd be expected to play it again, and if they didn't, they'd lose subscribers. I also think it's important for female streamers to have their audience be their audience. Not some idiots who watch Fortnite compilations. They won't get the right kind of people or publicity by streaming with Tyler.
Women in the streaming community already face a lot of hardships. They receive some of the worst toxicity and hate from the gaming community (regularly called thots, bitch, cunt, and other...
Women in the streaming community already face a lot of hardships. They receive some of the worst toxicity and hate from the gaming community (regularly called thots, bitch, cunt, and other harassment).
Ninja is furthering the divide that already exists and rather than stepping up to combat the toxicity and use his platform to help women streamers, he is expanding the divide further.
That's not his responsibility. He is doing his job, playing a game and trying to make money. He is protecting his career from scrutiny in an industry that can turn on you at a moments notice. He...
Ninja is furthering the divide that already exists and rather than stepping up to combat the toxicity and use his platform to help women streamers, he is expanding the divide further.
That's not his responsibility. He is doing his job, playing a game and trying to make money. He is protecting his career from scrutiny in an industry that can turn on you at a moments notice. He would not have the following he does if he tried to do what you are expecting of him.
Stop trying to use this as a backboard for feminist discussion. It's his career and his personal choice to make.
He said himself that the reason he is doing this is because of the toxicity of the Twitch/gaming community. He recognizes that it is an issue, and instead of trying to alleviate the problem, he is...
He said himself that the reason he is doing this is because of the toxicity of the Twitch/gaming community. He recognizes that it is an issue, and instead of trying to alleviate the problem, he is choosing to ignore it.
I just think its a cop out response.
Sure it is his choice to make, but we can still discuss the merits of that decision. It is not like this is happening in a vacuum, there is context to consider.
There is no way for him to alleviate toxicity in the community. It's just a part of gaming and gaming culture. When you get a bunch of people playing competitively things get toxic. It's been true...
alleviate the problem, he is choosing to ignore it.
I just think its a cop out response.
There is no way for him to alleviate toxicity in the community. It's just a part of gaming and gaming culture.
When you get a bunch of people playing competitively things get toxic. It's been true for every major multiplayer game since modern gaming became a thing. He is choosing to ignore it because it's not a fixable problem and it would be futile for him to try.
You might think its a cop out, but that doesn't matter because him doing what you want him to do is just not possible.
That's a good array of comments; it's good to see both sides! Pokimane's comment is particularly valuable, as they went through that experience; they know what it can do to someone. Expressly not...
That's a good array of comments; it's good to see both sides!
Pokimane's comment is particularly valuable, as they went through that experience; they know what it can do to someone. Expressly not wishing that to happen on Ninja is a really good argument for his side.
that constantly calls anyone with tits a thot
Obviously this is wrong. Twitch chat is vitriolic and full of nasty people, unfortunately.
One thing that I'm caught up on, though, is this:
is problematic and doesn't help in any way for women making their way in the industry
and
how're you going to use your huge platform/audience to help
Uh, why does he have to help? Why does someone who is successful have to do anything to help people who aren't as successful as they are?
Even if he did try, several of those comments point out that it'd likely be anywhere from not helpful to disastrous for the other streamer. A tricky situation for him: if he doesn't help, some disagree with him; if he does try, he's likely to make it worse for the people he's trying to help.
Thanks for making this distinction - I can agree with it. I just don't like telling people that they have to do something for someone else just because they've accomplished it before themselves....
Thanks for making this distinction - I can agree with it. I just don't like telling people that they have to do something for someone else just because they've accomplished it before themselves.
I think that this issue comes up a lot, and I don't want to wax philosophical (I probably do want that, but I shouldn't) about what it is to be American, but it seems like a very typically...
I think that this issue comes up a lot, and I don't want to wax philosophical (I probably do want that, but I shouldn't) about what it is to be American, but it seems like a very typically American point of view to say, "Why should I help someone? They should do it themselves!" It's a point of view that I have a hard time with, because I think that one of the most important things is kindness and support; we should be building everyone else up, because when we build others up, we improve ourselves as well.
If Ninja took a stand against toxicity in a different way, then that would be amazing. It's unfortunate that he is only building up himself and not helping anyone else.
That opposition came as much from the Google+ side as it did from YouTube. I was there when it happened, and the last thing hardcore Google+ users wanted was the "Eternal September" effect of...
The systems that have tried to tie online accounts to real identities have been met with overwhelming opposition, see Google+ and YouTube.
That opposition came as much from the Google+ side as it did from YouTube. I was there when it happened, and the last thing hardcore Google+ users wanted was the "Eternal September" effect of millions of YouTube commenters suddenly being able to comment on their posts. YouTube commenters tend to be ignorant shitfountains, little better than the morons you find on 4chan.
This topic is pretty timely I feel, because if steamtv. The issue here isn't ninja, it's the twitch audience, and the solution is to correct the culture, but that's not at all easy. What is easy...
This topic is pretty timely I feel, because if steamtv.
The issue here isn't ninja, it's the twitch audience, and the solution is to correct the culture, but that's not at all easy. What is easy is to steer a new group towards a culture. So for this to not be a problem, twitch needs to either find a way to fix the culture, or a new competitor like mixer or steamtv needs to cultivate a better culture and then dominate the market
Who gives a shit? I'm honestly surprised this is still a thing. From what I understand he's just trying to respect his significant other and essentially taking himself out of the situation...
Who gives a shit? I'm honestly surprised this is still a thing. From what I understand he's just trying to respect his significant other and essentially taking himself out of the situation altogether and that's just fine. FFS if anything this whole thing kind of gives his stance some credibility. Anyone and everyone would be trying to exploit him for sweet YouTube clicks, but I guess that kinda backfired since it's still happening. I don't like the guy at all, but I honestly respect that decision.
This continues to be a pretty interesting topic.
I think until Twitch figures out some way to pull itself out of its own dumpster fire, then anything that happens on Twitch will necessarily be viewed through the lens of, "What is the terrible Twitch community going to do with this?" That's an unfortunate issue and I think it's going to be difficult to overcome. I'm not sure why young men feel like it's okay to be unadulterated assholes when given even the slightest bit of anonymity, but this does touch on a subject that I'm always interested, which is the idea of consequence free speech.
The internet is rapidly becoming a place where anything can be said, which means that the things that we say have no consequences to them. This is horrendous. When we say awful things in person, people can associate those ideas with us as people, and there are natural consequences. For example, if Person A says something sexist, then everyone around him can think, "Hey, Person A is sexist! I don't like that." They may disassociate with him, and his social status declines. He's still free to say the things he wants to say, but he is not immune to consequence.
Online, it is quite different. Person B says something sexist online. If anyone responds, they're "triggered". People cannot disassociate from Person B, because his online self is nebulous and he can just make new accounts at will. Hey may not even believe the sexist things that he's saying.
There needs to be some kind of accountability for the things that people say and do online, especially in a place like Twitch Chat, which seems to have a lot of people in their formative years.
You already mentioned why this'd be next to impossible:
The systems that have tried to tie online accounts to real identities have been met with overwhelming opposition, see Google+ and YouTube.
But you can tie them slightly on twitch by enforcing subscriber-only mode.
Yup, true.
Remember when Blizzard tried to enforce RealID, and the #$%#storm that went down?
Adding on to the discussion from yesterday, a large number of female streamers have responded to Ninja's comments about not wanting to stream with women.
I think it is important to get some perspectives from actual women streamers in this discussion, rather than having it just be Ninja's opinion being discussed.
A few examples from the article:
I am curious if any of these comments form women in the industry changes people's minds at all on the discussion.
Previous Discussion - https://tildes.net/~games/4vk/ninja_explains_his_choice_not_to_stream_with_female_gamers
I don't.
Tyler's choice makes a lot of sense with how gaming culture and internet culture works. He is protecting himself, his brand and his marriage . There is nothing wrong with that, he's not the one that created the sexism in the industry he is just working around it. It's just safer for him to avoid the issue entirely and that makes sense. Other people's opinions on his personal choice, regardless of their gender, are irrelevant to his choice.
I want to be positive, but holy crap is that ever a head-in-the-sand point of view.
"This sexist thing is happening! Let's not even talk to the people it has an effect on!"
It is his personal choice, it is his job, his career and his life.
I get that you guys are trying to turn this into a topic about feminism in gaming, but in reality it's not.
Other people's opinions on Tyler's choice are irrelevant.
True, but that doesn't make it not sexist. I do a lot of things that are personal choices in my job, career, and life, and people that experience that can make judgments about me based on those choices. In this case, he's chosen a job that is under public scrutiny, and he has made a choice that is intrinsically sexist. The reasons for him making that choice are potentially understandable, but that doesn't make him immune to criticism or immune to the results of the choices that he has made.
Other people's opinions on his choice are relevant because our choices do not exist in a vacuum, and they have an effect on other people. His choices are causing things to happen (or not happen), and so people can and should have opinions on those things.
This isn't a consequence free existence.
Furthermore, if you think that other people's opinions on what he's doing are irrelevant, then I would say by the same logic, it's irrelevant to post about those other people's opinions. You're in a thread talking about it; is it really irrelevant?
It's way easier to just not take part in it if you find it unimportant. And if you're point is that it's not important, you're ascribing importance to it merely be responding, based on how Tildes works. If you want it to be less visible, then ignore it.
Also, you can filter this out: the tag
women in gamescovers both, and if Dubs keeps going as they are, the next one will probably get appropriately tagged as well.Yeah, I will continue sharing pieces like this in the future as it is a topic that interests me a lot.
I love video games and have been playing them since as far as I can remember, but I am really embarrassed by the toxicity within the gaming community, and in particular how it treats women, minorities, and LGBT.
I think these are important discussions to have and I am happy to hear others thoughts on them and I think Tildes can provide a great space for this dialogue.
Please continue! Though I haven't actively engaged in these last posts, I, too, and very interested and appreciate you posting them.
cool, thanks very much!
Great! It's important that we keep discussing this, and it's good activity for the site.
right on
Thanks! You keep posting and I'll keep navel gazing during the posts. ;)
Quite frankly I don't feel like we should be putting the weight of the world on this guy. There are plenty of other streamers out there playing plenty of other games with females or female streamers streaming with other females. Why does one guy not conforming throw a wrench in their (their being the population collectively outraged at Tyler's decision) plan? Hell, there are even female streamers who aren't playing the next big thing on Twitch (Personally I feel like streamers who only stream the biggest game atm are pretty shallow) and are trying to make it by playing the games they love. Do any female streamers even want to play Fortnite with Tyler besides the few that have spoken about the issue? Tyler isn't the only figurehead who can help out females on Twitch, and honestly the whole needing a male to help females on twitch thing seems kinda hypocritical. I'd dig the shit out of a stream with a bunch of females playing their favorite games. There's passion there; not playing a FotM (in spirit) game to get more views. Not to mention if said female streamer played Fortnite once, they'd be expected to play it again, and if they didn't, they'd lose subscribers. I also think it's important for female streamers to have their audience be their audience. Not some idiots who watch Fortnite compilations. They won't get the right kind of people or publicity by streaming with Tyler.
Women in the streaming community already face a lot of hardships. They receive some of the worst toxicity and hate from the gaming community (regularly called thots, bitch, cunt, and other harassment).
https://kotaku.com/streamers-hateful-rant-revives-debate-about-women-on-tw-1820418898
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/59q98k/pewdiepie-alinity-copyright-feud-twitch-fails
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2018/06/popular-twitch-streamer-makes-an-example-of-her-harassers/
https://www.polygon.com/2018/6/27/17506414/amouranth-twitch-thot-streamer-cosplayer-alinity-backlash
Women are also already far less likely to be paid for their streaming.
https://venturebeat.com/2018/05/29/paypal-game-livestreaming-explodes-but-female-streamers-are-less-likely-to-get-paid/
Ninja is furthering the divide that already exists and rather than stepping up to combat the toxicity and use his platform to help women streamers, he is expanding the divide further.
That's not his responsibility. He is doing his job, playing a game and trying to make money. He is protecting his career from scrutiny in an industry that can turn on you at a moments notice. He would not have the following he does if he tried to do what you are expecting of him.
Stop trying to use this as a backboard for feminist discussion. It's his career and his personal choice to make.
He said himself that the reason he is doing this is because of the toxicity of the Twitch/gaming community. He recognizes that it is an issue, and instead of trying to alleviate the problem, he is choosing to ignore it.
I just think its a cop out response.
Sure it is his choice to make, but we can still discuss the merits of that decision. It is not like this is happening in a vacuum, there is context to consider.
There is no way for him to alleviate toxicity in the community. It's just a part of gaming and gaming culture.
When you get a bunch of people playing competitively things get toxic. It's been true for every major multiplayer game since modern gaming became a thing. He is choosing to ignore it because it's not a fixable problem and it would be futile for him to try.
You might think its a cop out, but that doesn't matter because him doing what you want him to do is just not possible.
That's a good array of comments; it's good to see both sides!
Pokimane's comment is particularly valuable, as they went through that experience; they know what it can do to someone. Expressly not wishing that to happen on Ninja is a really good argument for his side.
Obviously this is wrong. Twitch chat is vitriolic and full of nasty people, unfortunately.
One thing that I'm caught up on, though, is this:
and
Uh, why does he have to help? Why does someone who is successful have to do anything to help people who aren't as successful as they are?
Even if he did try, several of those comments point out that it'd likely be anywhere from not helpful to disastrous for the other streamer. A tricky situation for him: if he doesn't help, some disagree with him; if he does try, he's likely to make it worse for the people he's trying to help.
He doesn't have to.
But he should help, or things aren't going to change.
One of my favourite quotes is from The Lorax by Dr. Seuss:
Thanks for making this distinction - I can agree with it. I just don't like telling people that they have to do something for someone else just because they've accomplished it before themselves.
That's a good quote; I'm saving it.
I think that this issue comes up a lot, and I don't want to wax philosophical (I probably do want that, but I shouldn't) about what it is to be American, but it seems like a very typically American point of view to say, "Why should I help someone? They should do it themselves!" It's a point of view that I have a hard time with, because I think that one of the most important things is kindness and support; we should be building everyone else up, because when we build others up, we improve ourselves as well.
If Ninja took a stand against toxicity in a different way, then that would be amazing. It's unfortunate that he is only building up himself and not helping anyone else.
That opposition came as much from the Google+ side as it did from YouTube. I was there when it happened, and the last thing hardcore Google+ users wanted was the "Eternal September" effect of millions of YouTube commenters suddenly being able to comment on their posts. YouTube commenters tend to be ignorant shitfountains, little better than the morons you find on 4chan.
@Celeo I think this was a reply to you.
Shit. I did it again. Sorry.
You played with my heart, got lost in the game.
Did you just quote Britney Spears at me?
You did first! (almost)
I tried to word my post to avoid such allusions.
I think you strictly improved it, as most Britney covers do (like the Zappa's cover of hit me baby one more time which is an amazing cover.)
Thanks.
Thanks!
Oh I definitely agree - it was not a well-liked pairing from either side, and both sides complained until the mandatory part of it was reverted.
This topic is pretty timely I feel, because if steamtv.
The issue here isn't ninja, it's the twitch audience, and the solution is to correct the culture, but that's not at all easy. What is easy is to steer a new group towards a culture. So for this to not be a problem, twitch needs to either find a way to fix the culture, or a new competitor like mixer or steamtv needs to cultivate a better culture and then dominate the market
Who gives a shit? I'm honestly surprised this is still a thing. From what I understand he's just trying to respect his significant other and essentially taking himself out of the situation altogether and that's just fine. FFS if anything this whole thing kind of gives his stance some credibility. Anyone and everyone would be trying to exploit him for sweet YouTube clicks, but I guess that kinda backfired since it's still happening. I don't like the guy at all, but I honestly respect that decision.
I am @ninja and I don’t know what is going on here. Did someone mention me?
Unless you are the twitch streamer Ninja then people aren't talking about you if you are then well that's kinda awkward I guess??