70 votes

Moderators of r/Games have closed the sub for the day and posted a serious message about harassment in the community.

73 comments

  1. [9]
    Deimos
    (edited )
    Link
    Good for them. It's probably not very well-known any more, but I was actually the one that started /r/Games (and got a couple of other /r/gaming mods involved initially), based mostly on the...

    Good for them. It's probably not very well-known any more, but I was actually the one that started /r/Games (and got a couple of other /r/gaming mods involved initially), based mostly on the thoughts I posted a very long time ago here about why it would be impossible to "fix" /r/gaming's quality. I was the head mod of /r/Games for years, but decided to leave not long after I started working at reddit, since me being a site employee introduced some strange conflicts of interest (or at least the appearance of them).

    We worked really hard for a long time to build /r/Games up while trying to keep the quality high, but I've definitely noticed it getting pretty rough in the last few years. The continued constant growth and overall ugly culture of reddit has obviously made it very difficult for them to keep up with, and it's just a constant battle where the quality will slide downhill incredibly quickly if the moderators aren't constantly involved.

    I've made the comparison before that Tildes is almost like a more general version of what I was trying to do with /r/Games. If you go back to some of the very old meta/rules posts I made in /r/Games, you can even see a lot of similar approaches to what I'm doing here.

    Anyway, I'm glad to see them doing this, but unfortunately I think it has a pretty high chance of just ramping the drama up even further for them for a while. While it should be treated as a completely reasonable thing for them to do, this is the sort of thing that will get a lot of the problematic users and subreddits riled up.

    64 votes
    1. [2]
      LionGhost
      Link Parent
      I joined the mod team 2 years ago, so I did not ever mod with you, but I just wanted to say thank you for the kind words! And for helping bring attention to this. We try really hard to combat the...

      I joined the mod team 2 years ago, so I did not ever mod with you, but I just wanted to say thank you for the kind words! And for helping bring attention to this. We try really hard to combat the toxicity in the sub but it is really difficult.

      but unfortunately I think it has a pretty high chance of just ramping the drama up even further for them for a while. While it should be treated as a completely reasonable thing for them to do, this is the sort of thing that will get a lot of the problematic users and subreddits riled up.

      You are probably right here. But we wanted to send a message. The feedback has been overwhelmingly positive and far outweighs any hate we've received.

      21 votes
      1. DangerChips
        Link Parent
        As someone who browses r/Games quite a bit, thank you for all you guys do to detoxify that subreddit. There's a hard push by certain groups to cultivate that demographic into possible recruits or...

        As someone who browses r/Games quite a bit, thank you for all you guys do to detoxify that subreddit. There's a hard push by certain groups to cultivate that demographic into possible recruits or to normalize hate. I only deal with a very tiny small dose of that on the small sub I help moderate so I can only imagine what you guys deal with on a day to day basis.

        10 votes
    2. evan
      Link Parent
      Hey Deimos. Thanks for the kind words. ❤️. Coming from you it means a lot. However, I don't think we need to be afraid of the problem users being riled up anymore. We need, instead, to be vigilant...

      Hey Deimos.

      Thanks for the kind words. ❤️. Coming from you it means a lot.

      However, I don't think we need to be afraid of the problem users being riled up anymore. We need, instead, to be vigilant about calling out problems where they're seen and taking care of them. Sending this message and the work we're going to put in to make sure it sticks is more important than whatever drama is going to accompany it.

      Doing the right thing doesn't have to mean doing the easy thing.

      16 votes
    3. tiz
      Link Parent
      Funnily enough, when I'm trying to explain tildes to people I usually say "tildes is like r/games as Reddit is like r/gaming". I've always know you were the one who pioneered r/games and can...

      Funnily enough, when I'm trying to explain tildes to people I usually say "tildes is like r/games as Reddit is like r/gaming".

      I've always know you were the one who pioneered r/games and can really see the similarities in tildes. Which I really like, so thank you for that.

      11 votes
    4. unknown user
      Link Parent
      At least it's easier to weed out when the weeds stand out.

      this is the sort of thing that will get a lot of the problematic users and subreddits riled up.

      At least it's easier to weed out when the weeds stand out.

      8 votes
    5. [2]
      nothis
      Link Parent
      Oh, I'm not looking forward to that.

      For those curious, yes we will have a meta thread for a discussion when the sub reopens. Stay tuned tomorrow for that.

      Oh, I'm not looking forward to that.

      6 votes
      1. botanrice
        Link Parent
        On the other hand there should be some juicy drama to watch

        On the other hand there should be some juicy drama to watch

        2 votes
    6. stephen
      Link Parent
      Maybe it makes their lives suck, what with the death threats in the DM's and all, but based on reaction to two parts of the comment, I think it's pretty clear that taking this stand was well worth...

      Maybe it makes their lives suck, what with the death threats in the DM's and all, but based on reaction to two parts of the comment, I think it's pretty clear that taking this stand was well worth the abuse.

      I was the head mod of /r/Games for years, but decided to leave not long after I started working at reddit, since me being a site employee introduced some strange conflicts of interest

      I'm glad to see them doing this, but unfortunately I think it has a pretty high chance of just ramping the drama up even further for them for a while... this is the sort of thing that will get a lot of the problematic users and subreddits riled up.

      My thought is that it is good to rile these people up. Applying the 1% rule/Parterre Principle that a small portion of the community is responsible for the majority of the content production, it is reasonable that the people who feel strongly enough about (((the integrity of games journalism))) to speak out against this move are a small vocal minority. Sure, they might all make threats to the mods.

      The productive side effect of this move is that it will force the people who more-or-less agree with the trolls' shitposting ideology to pick a side. After all, if they don't feel strongly enough to speak up, chances are they won't cling to hate to the bitter end. Sure, the up front is pretty ugly. But I think the long run will be positive.

      5 votes
  2. [29]
    Adys
    Link
    Off-topic: I really like the trend to actually reuse April's Fools to do good/impactful things, talk about serious topics, etc. People are getting sick of the internet on April 1st and so am I....

    Off-topic: I really like the trend to actually reuse April's Fools to do good/impactful things, talk about serious topics, etc. People are getting sick of the internet on April 1st and so am I.

    On-topic: A really powerful message. I'm glad they're actually showing examples of what the rot looks like. Too many people don't take the problem seriously because they don't see it; and they don't see it because they get to see the content after it's been curated.

    27 votes
    1. [29]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [9]
        TheInvaderZim
        Link Parent
        I disagree with that assertion. Games transcend genres as easily as movies - if you wanted to compare the two, most games are a lot closer to need 4 speed or john wick. Gaming culture is a problem...

        I disagree with that assertion. Games transcend genres as easily as movies - if you wanted to compare the two, most games are a lot closer to need 4 speed or john wick.

        Gaming culture is a problem because the core audience is filled with socially awkward teenagers that either never learned the consequence of being assholes, or those people, plus 20 years.

        13 votes
        1. [7]
          unknown user
          Link Parent
          Dunno about Need 4 Speed, but John Wick is gun porn. That it has a decent story and cool worldbuilding is but a nice bonus. You know, I'd like to believe that. I'm not sure if it's true, but it...

          if you wanted to compare the two, most games are a lot closer to need 4 speed or john wick.

          Dunno about Need 4 Speed, but John Wick is gun porn. That it has a decent story and cool worldbuilding is but a nice bonus.

          Gaming culture is a problem because the core audience is filled with socially awkward teenagers that either never learned the consequence of being assholes, or those people, plus 20 years.

          You know, I'd like to believe that. I'm not sure if it's true, but it rings true.

          I'm a Dota 2 player. I'm about average, skill-wise. What makes me stand out – and makes me the lightning rod for hatred and bile for a whole bunch of match-made people I get to play with – is my attitude.

          For those who don't know: the word "tilting" in the gamer community means "being so angry it messes with your ability to play straight". If I get tilted, it's because I was in a bad mood to begin with and there's no teamwork in the match (happens).

          I start every game with a greeting. I say "Gentlemen.", with the first capital and the period. If someone speaks up, it's far more likely to be either of "fuck you", "stfu" (short for "shut the fuck up"), or "lady" (no capitals, no syntax; because being a woman in such a manly and strong-willed game is somehow undignifying).

          I all-chat (read: everyone sees what I type, as opposed to the team-only chat) quite frequently, because I enjoy it. It's mostly light banter, or observations, or something fun, to make the stressful playing a little bit lighter on the mood. Sometimes, I get matched with people who reply in similar manner, which I enjoy even more.

          Other times, I get matched with people who find this sort of behavior offensive. I take things in stride, I don't stress too much about the game, and I keep the negative to the minimum. This irritates some people, who've put great stock into their in-game performance. If they aren't doing so well, they're far more likely to blame others – including someone who just keep yapping all game long, without ever taking a break to consider someone's feelings.

          This puts me in a position where I have to either reply – which, on a good day, may have a better outcome than the continuous vitriol everyone has to go through – or mute them. In Dota 2, you can mute every other player on either or both of two channels: voice and text. Either option also mutes the player's pings (which are often abused out of anger and are quite annoying when used that way). For three years, I used to just take it, and it made my games that much more miserable, and myself – that much more angry and upset. Last year, I realized I needn't have dealt with that.

          In other words, I mute the assholes and never look back.

          Sometimes, I mute the rest of my team. If they're squabbling and shouting at each other, I don't see how I could bring any peace into that without wasting what valuable little energy I have on something that's going to end in less than an hour. Oftentimes, I mute some of the enemies, especially if all they say is "ez" (read: "it was such a burdenless victory that I can't help but brag about it") at the end of the match.

          (Sure, we can talk about longer-term benefits of a more compassionate approach – nudging the community ever so slightly to a better place through one player at a time – but I really, really don't have the energy for this, so I make do. The problem is systemic, and it has to be solved as such.)

          It happens almost every match. I like the game, and I play it for fun because that's what it is for me. I'd like to keep the negative out of it as much as I can, and muting people is one of the two tools (and the only short-term tool) I have to do so. The other tool is reporting people to the in-game automated moderation system. It's rather cleverly set-up to disregard the "noise" by discounting one or two reports that you may have accumulated over the last 25 games, so that the tilt-reporting would have little effect. I'm not sure how the business end of the reporting system works – how many reports do you need to get or how often – but if you have enough, you get into a low-priority queue (which means regular players needn't deal with you), and you can even get a six-month ban if you're a sore offender.

          Yep: half a year of no Dota. The first wave of bans was big and full of sorrow.

          But it doesn't stop, of course – and that's the real issue. I used to get matched with people I'd muted prior once every 20 matches or so – once a week, with my schedule. Now it's more like 10 matches. The list isn't getting shorter.

          7 votes
          1. [4]
            TheInvaderZim
            Link Parent
            pet peeve: calling something _ porn is limited entirely to those who inhabit the internet. Most people wouldn't know that it's technically correct to call John Wick gun porn, and it's only become...

            pet peeve: calling something _ porn is limited entirely to those who inhabit the internet. Most people wouldn't know that it's technically correct to call John Wick gun porn, and it's only become less correct as time goes on.

            Which is to say, you're not wrong by saying it - it just hadn't occurred to me to think of 'porn' by that definition. I think that changes the discussion, as well - calling, say, Apex Legends gun porn is completely different than what the author is saying, which is that it's equivalent to porn porn.

            Moving on to the rest of your post, it reminded me of something I've been meaning to post here: toxicity is a symptom. You said it yourself - if you tilt, it's because you're already having a bad day, followed by the game itself being frustrating. The reason that conventional methods of dealing with it are so ineffective is because the games themselves create the problems.

            I'll have to write more on this...

            2 votes
            1. [2]
              unknown user
              Link Parent
              Not that much different. It may not get you hard/wet, but it does promote quick release of endorphines, which your brain gets addicted to over prolonged usage. It's difficult to ween yourself off...

              calling, say, Apex Legends gun porn is completely different than what the author is saying, which is that it's equivalent to porn porn.

              Not that much different. It may not get you hard/wet, but it does promote quick release of endorphines, which your brain gets addicted to over prolonged usage. It's difficult to ween yourself off the stuff that can get you high, quickly.

              It's also not different in the same way pornography is to real sex. In reality, if people are having sex, it's far more likely that it's because they're passionate about each other, and their behavior will reflect that: kisses, sensual touching of non-sexual body parts, engaged eye contact, facial expression, body movement, vocalization...

              In porn, you see the same process stripped down to its mechanical elements – the parts that stimulate the visual part of a man's brain (let's face it: porn is mostly about men, and lacking other organs to stimulate, men need the visual part much more). You still get vocalization, but it's mostly fake, made up by an actress who's not really enjoying the process – but has to look like she does. You still get eye contact, but it's forced, as if strung by a quota. You rarely get the sensual part, and the things that come with it.

              John Wick is about a man who's terrifyingly-proficient in using firearms against what would be overwhelming odds to even a regular elite soldier. And sure, any non-interactive story has to be set up in some ways to be interesting, but it didn't have to be set up so strongly around firearms – yet it was. The second film even goes out of its way to present them as equivalent to fine wine in the depth of understanding required to use one properly.

              Fetishes aren't all about sexualizing the object of desire, but they derive from a similar mechanism nevertheless. We call it "<something> porn" because pornography is the epitome of primal instincts for humans, which we have two of. The other one – survival – gets a lot of work-up, too, but it isn't nearly as urgent and as endorphine-releasing once you'd finished overcoming the danger.

              So, we have "X porn".

              5 votes
              1. TheInvaderZim
                Link Parent
                I know why, but that doesn't change the definition for 80% of people being "sex movies," which is what the previous article is comparing games to.

                I know why, but that doesn't change the definition for 80% of people being "sex movies," which is what the previous article is comparing games to.

                4 votes
            2. Adys
              Link Parent
              I think this is just another language evolution we get to witness :) Give it a few years more and it'll be much more mainstream to use porn as a synonym for … uh … I don't even know how to...

              pet peeve: calling something _ porn is limited entirely to those who inhabit the internet. Most people wouldn't know that it's technically correct to call John Wick gun porn, and it's only become less correct as time goes on.

              I think this is just another language evolution we get to witness :) Give it a few years more and it'll be much more mainstream to use porn as a synonym for … uh … I don't even know how to describe it other than "porn", that's probably what makes this so catchy.

              3 votes
          2. [2]
            DMonitor
            Link Parent
            Are you sure they weren’t just correcting your assertion of their gender?

            or "lady" (no capitals, no syntax; because being a woman in such a manly and strong-willed game is somehow undignifying).

            Are you sure they weren’t just correcting your assertion of their gender?

            1 vote
            1. unknown user
              Link Parent
              I'd admire their bravery if that were the case, 'cause women can and will get swiftly harassed. I would know. Dota players mistake me for a woman at times, for reasons beyond my comprehension. The...

              I'd admire their bravery if that were the case, 'cause women can and will get swiftly harassed.

              I would know. Dota players mistake me for a woman at times, for reasons beyond my comprehension. The illicit comments I get in those cases offend even me, a man.

              Don't get me wrong: the female players in the game can stand the heat. I just can't see one explicitly turning this particular turret onto herself.

              2 votes
        2. [2]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. TheInvaderZim
            Link Parent
            Hey, that's what my other post is about. To be clear, I don't think that games are surrounded/permiated by toxic men; I think that the core audience - the people most likely to thrive in the...

            Hey, that's what my other post is about.

            To be clear, I don't think that games are surrounded/permiated by toxic men; I think that the core audience - the people most likely to thrive in the environment and stick around the longest, forming the extremely passionate, engaged subsection you see on, say, reddit - are toxic men.

            I think most (virtually all) toxicity is just people not knowing better, reacting to the game itself, or having bad days - but that's become a problem because that extreme is now so extreme, and the more 'innocent' toxicity is a perfect irrational breeding ground for it.

            2 votes
      2. [19]
        Adys
        Link Parent
        Meh. I have a lot of respect for jblow but I cannot relate at all with that assertion. It's true that big-budget mainstream games tend to be average… just like big budget mainstream hollywood...

        Meh. I have a lot of respect for jblow but I cannot relate at all with that assertion. It's true that big-budget mainstream games tend to be average… just like big budget mainstream hollywood movies tend to be average. And just like with movies, there's an all-you-can-eat buffet of high quality stuff out there.

        4 votes
        1. [12]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [11]
            Adys
            Link Parent
            That's how I've been interpreting it as well and I maintain my comment as an answer to that. Of course there's lots of games out there that are made for instant gratification and...

            That's how I've been interpreting it as well and I maintain my comment as an answer to that.

            Of course there's lots of games out there that are made for instant gratification and power-fantasy/wish fullfilment. And movies too. And in both there's also a lot of high quality stuff. Really, games today as a medium are in a very similar spot as movies in general, so I'm not sure where even he got his original comparison from.

            6 votes
            1. [10]
              unknown user
              Link Parent
              "But there's good stuff here, too!" You can have pleasant interactions on Facebook. You can enjoy low-key, almost-indie Hollywood films. You can listen to underground music composed by some really...

              "But there's good stuff here, too!"

              You can have pleasant interactions on Facebook. You can enjoy low-key, almost-indie Hollywood films. You can listen to underground music composed by some really talented people.

              It doesn't detract from the fact that Facebook has massive issues in many fields of its operations. It doesn't detract from the fact that so many Hollywood films are flicks with a stupid-ass plot and stunning visuals, designed solely to be watchable. It doesn't detract from the fact that mainstream music is getting seriously dumb.

              Just because you may get to enjoy the good side of the industry doesn't make you the sole purveyor of the realm. You can't see everything. The fact is, there are badlands in the area you enjoy calling yours, and they deserve attention regardless of the fact that you don't want to consider them.

              Art doesn't have to be bland, or uncultured, or chasing our base instincts. It's getting there because a lot of people want to make a lot of money and don't particularly care about the impact they're leaving on the rest of the industry. There's a whole economic system based on the notion that one should strive to provide what people want to purchase.

              Just as it got there by someone's collective hand, it can get out of it by someone else's.

              7 votes
              1. [9]
                Adys
                Link Parent
                I work in the video games industry so yes, I think I can fairly say I do get to see the bad as well as the good. There's a lot of good out there. Don't be so depressing. You're comparing the...

                I work in the video games industry so yes, I think I can fairly say I do get to see the bad as well as the good.

                There's a lot of good out there. Don't be so depressing. You're comparing the entire video games genre to Facebook which has literally been clinically shown to be harmful to mental health.

                You'll never have only good things. Good and bad are always relative to each other. If every game is good, no game is good.

                What you can have is an overall increase in quality. That's been steadily on the rise forever! AAA game budget has gone through the roof as there's more and more production going into games, while on the other side of the fence you have indies getting access to a wealth of tools to produce games and now creating content like never before. On every front, games have been getting better and better.

                And it's not all gratification-porn, it really isn't. Red Dead Redemption 2 is what you can expect from AAA games now.

                6 votes
                1. [8]
                  unknown user
                  Link Parent
                  No, I'm comparing a vast field of possible interactions and outcomes to another vast field of possible interactions and outcomes. Just like I did to films and music. Fun fact: I did a project on...

                  You're comparing the entire video games genre to Facebook which has literally been clinically shown to be harmful to mental health.

                  No, I'm comparing a vast field of possible interactions and outcomes to another vast field of possible interactions and outcomes. Just like I did to films and music. Fun fact: I did a project on the negative part of the impact of social networks on its users in my Psych course at the uni. Yeah, that shit can be bad for you. I could still talk to friends there, though! And I could make new ones from all over the world!

                  Which is exactly what your outlook sounds to me, but in reverse. "So what that there's been bad things? Don't be such a sourpuss. Look at the good parts!" Sure, the coin is multidimensional; I'm not stupid enough to deny that. But if there are games that encourage you to be angry and upset with the way they're set up – not through the ill wish of the creators but through the very human limit to wisdom and perspective – is that negated by The Last of Us being fucking brilliant?

                  And if it doesn't, does producing more games like The Last of Us makes the situation better if people are equally able and willing to produce more games of the kind that makes you want to rip your console apart immediately after the match ends?

                  4 votes
                  1. [7]
                    Adys
                    Link Parent
                    Sorry, I'm not sure what you're arguing. I disagree with jblow's statement that "most games are porn". I'm not saying every single game is good, I'm saying that I feel jonathan way undersells the...

                    Sorry, I'm not sure what you're arguing. I disagree with jblow's statement that "most games are porn". I'm not saying every single game is good, I'm saying that I feel jonathan way undersells the amount of quality readily available to everyone.

                    Hell, fire up a Switch. The large majority of games on there are actually worth buying.

                    6 votes
                    1. [6]
                      unknown user
                      Link Parent
                      What I'm saying is: games are getting more and more... what's the word... incentivizing? You get an achievement for finishing a tutorial – how on Earth is that an achievement, in a genuine sense...

                      What I'm saying is: games are getting more and more... what's the word... incentivizing? You get an achievement for finishing a tutorial – how on Earth is that an achievement, in a genuine sense of the word?

                      I'm saying games like this – mostly on the bigger-budget side – wire the players' brains to fire up the dopamine for the simplest things, in the hopes that the continuous high will get them addicted and craving for me. Loot boxes are an egregious offender in the category, but far from the only one. Escapism is one thing, but it gets ridiculously patronizing and overly enticing when what is essentially a game-development equivalent of a dark pattern gets entrenched in the collective consciousness because it gives you the rapid-fire feel-good at barely any cost.

                      If you agree with this definition – and feel free to dispute it – do you not think this sounds awfully like porn?

                      5 votes
                      1. [5]
                        Adys
                        Link Parent
                        It helps the game developers track how many people finish the tutorial without having to create their own analytics system. Achievement systems also can sometimes help the game communicate to the...

                        You get an achievement for finishing a tutorial – how on Earth is that an achievement, in a genuine sense of the word?

                        It helps the game developers track how many people finish the tutorial without having to create their own analytics system.
                        Achievement systems also can sometimes help the game communicate to the players in a non-diegetic way when they reach milestones.

                        If you agree with this definition

                        I do not. I mean, I agree Mobile gaming is in a sorry state, but I doubt that's what jblow was referring to (mobile gaming is generally considered to be its own industry). And yes, loot boxes aren't a great system, but that has overall little impact on how good the game can be (examples: Shadow of Mordor, Overwatch, Hearthstone).

                        I think people have a tendency to see what they want to see. There's a lot of facets to gaming; if you focus on the porn, you may end up thinking there's a lot of it out there. But that's because you haven't seen how much there is of everything else, I'd say.

                        It's kinda like board games. If you've played Monopoly, Snakes & Ladders, Uno and Risk and liked none of them, it might be easy to think you've tried many of them and hate board games. You'd still be wrong to.

                        4 votes
                        1. [4]
                          unknown user
                          Link Parent
                          Ah, non-disabling telemetry. Dirty.

                          It helps the game developers track how many people finish the tutorial without having to create their own analytics system.

                          Ah, non-disabling telemetry. Dirty.

                          1. [3]
                            Adys
                            Link Parent
                            Yes, basic statistics. Also known as how game developers are able to actually improve their games. Sorry, I have little patience for attitude; I'm starting to see anti-telemetrists with the same...

                            Yes, basic statistics. Also known as how game developers are able to actually improve their games.

                            Sorry, I have little patience for attitude; I'm starting to see anti-telemetrists with the same eye as I see flat earthers. I'm a privacy nut, but there's a difference between Google getting your shopping history and monetizing knowing how many of their users buy Nikes, versus a game developer looking at how many of their players have started the game they bought, finished the tutorial, finished chapter 1, etc.

                            3 votes
                            1. [2]
                              unknown user
                              Link Parent
                              Not knowing how many people have bought your game would be ridiculous. Knowing how many people found tutorial difficult is done via reading the reviews. People will complain if it's badly made. If...

                              Not knowing how many people have bought your game would be ridiculous.

                              Knowing how many people found tutorial difficult is done via reading the reviews. People will complain if it's badly made. If you listen, you can fix that. Substituting that with a dopamine gun is unethical.

                              Also, yeah: fuck people who don't want to be surreptitiously tracked by the companies they don't trust, and the people who are now scared out of their wits about "telemetry" and other kinds of scary words by non-experts who keep opening their mouth when there's nothing of value ready to come out.

                              1 vote
                              1. Adys
                                Link Parent
                                If you don't trust a company, why are you buying its games? I'm not even advocating you stop using something as useful as Google Search. Not buying a game is a pretty simple thing. Let me address...
                                • Exemplary

                                If you don't trust a company, why are you buying its games?

                                I'm not even advocating you stop using something as useful as Google Search. Not buying a game is a pretty simple thing.

                                Let me address your points though:

                                Knowing how many people found tutorial difficult is done via reading the reviews.

                                No, it's really not. What you may be thinking about is playtesting, which takes a lot of grunt time, spent observing players play your game, see exactly what they do with it, etc.

                                However, let's say you sell 50000 copies. Without telemetry, how do you know how many players have even started the game? How do you know how many are still playing it 1 year after release? How do you know that 4% of your playerbase gets stuck on the 12th quest? How do you know that 40% of players missed a critical-yet-unclear marker in act 3, and 98% of that 40% ended up leaving the game before completing it?

                                And no, the answer is not "reading reviews". For one thing, reading reviews takes a lot of time, and they're of extremely varying quality. They will not have the details you seek out. Players don't know the game like you do; you know what to look for, they don't know what to write about. Furthermore, reviews aren't even meant as feedback to the devs, they're usually written for other players. And there's absolutely no way to aggregate and analyze them. Even if you did painstakingly turn reviews into data, you would need large sample sizes to draw any meaningful conclusions. How much time do you think the devs have to spend on meaningless work, just to please a couple of people who are a bit too paranoid about bits leaving their computers (yet who still turn on the internet)?


                                Let me be very clear: I meant what I said. I'm a privacy nut. I've been donating to the EFF forever. I've done a lot of activism. I've throughout my career fought for open source and transparency; against ads; against meaningless tracking. I've talked time and again to politicians to educate them about the dangers of corporations knowing too much about our behaviours online, as well as the sort of thing they can find out from very little.

                                What I have categorically not done though, is tell a video game studio they shouldn't be looking at how users play their damn game. You need to understand why and when telemetry is important, before saying it's "dirty". There are dirty and insidious kinds of telemetry. There are serious issues in some sectors, such as transportation for example, when you start to track users even just for anti-fraud purposes.

                                So yes, to hell with the anti-telemetry-at-all-costs attitude, because it's unsustainable, uncalled for, and more than anything else it actually makes it harder for people to argue against it when it matters; and instead of spending time writing about the security implications of tracking your users' zip codes, I'm writing a 10 paragraph post having to explain why it's useful for a video game studio to know where the problems are in the game they made.

                                From my entire experience as a privacy activist, "privacy extremism" has by far been the most pervasively harmful attitude against the cause. Every single person I've seen say they have "nothing to hide" has usually developed that attitude as a defence against privacy extremists.

                                I apologize for the extremely frustrated tone of this post. I'd clean it up, but I've dedicated far too much time to this discussion already.

                                8 votes
        2. [7]
          culturedleftfoot
          Link Parent
          There is now... and I'd argue that it's partially because of his not insignificant influence in the indie gaming scene over the past decade. Still, it's not like gaming has birthed its Citizen...

          And just like with movies, there's an all-you-can-eat buffet of high quality stuff out there.

          There is now... and I'd argue that it's partially because of his not insignificant influence in the indie gaming scene over the past decade. Still, it's not like gaming has birthed its Citizen Kane yet.

          1. Crespyl
            Link Parent
            The "Citizen Kane of gaming" is a phrase that gets brought up and thrown away so often it's hard to get any meaningful discourse out of without being extremely clear. What exactly would a "Citizen...

            The "Citizen Kane of gaming" is a phrase that gets brought up and thrown away so often it's hard to get any meaningful discourse out of without being extremely clear.

            What exactly would a "Citizen Kane of games" look like to you? Something that redefines how we think of games, or uses the medium to tell a story in a novel way that is totally unique to the medium? Something that defines a new genre and style in a way that goes on to impact decades of game design after? Pushing the limits of audio/video/interactive elements? Or doing all that while also being overlooked until years after release?

            I can already think of examples for all of those things, and even in just the last decade we've had works that seemingly blow the medium wide open for an incredible range of artistic and entertainment works. What are you still waiting for?

            2 votes
          2. [5]
            Adys
            Link Parent
            I would argue Portal deserves that title.

            Still, it's not like gaming has birthed its Citizen Kane yet.

            I would argue Portal deserves that title.

            1. [4]
              culturedleftfoot
              Link Parent
              Well... then we have vastly different ideas about what games can be. Give it 20 years, they haven't even figured VR out yet.

              Well... then we have vastly different ideas about what games can be. Give it 20 years, they haven't even figured VR out yet.

              1 vote
              1. [3]
                Adys
                Link Parent
                Does that mean in 1941 we knew exactly everything there was to know about making movies? Could Toy Story 2 have been made in 1941, or does "not having figured CGI out yet" prevent Citizen Kane...

                Does that mean in 1941 we knew exactly everything there was to know about making movies?

                Could Toy Story 2 have been made in 1941, or does "not having figured CGI out yet" prevent Citizen Kane from getting the reputation it has?

                Works of art get their "best ever" titles not just from quality but also from context.

                1 vote
                1. [2]
                  culturedleftfoot
                  Link Parent
                  Come on, I wouldn't have used Citizen Kane as my example if that's how I thought. I fully agree about context, but as I say, we just seem to have different ideas about what games can be. I don't...

                  Come on, I wouldn't have used Citizen Kane as my example if that's how I thought. I fully agree about context, but as I say, we just seem to have different ideas about what games can be. I don't want to further derail the thread though.

                  1. Adys
                    Link Parent
                    But… you did bring up Citizen Kane, and you did bring up VR. I'm a little confused about your line of thinking. Portal isn't even my favourite game, but I'll definitely argue in favour of it being...

                    But… you did bring up Citizen Kane, and you did bring up VR. I'm a little confused about your line of thinking.

                    Portal isn't even my favourite game, but I'll definitely argue in favour of it being the "greatest of all time". You say we have different ideas about what games can be but I'm not sure what your ideas are (and I don't think you know mine).

                    Like @Crespyl says, it's unclear what a "Citizen Kane of games" might look like to you.

                    1 vote
  3. [4]
    mrbig
    Link
    Back in the day video games were about having a blast with your friends in the living room when your parents wasn't using the TV. I understand it gained a higher cultural significance and with...

    Back in the day video games were about having a blast with your friends in the living room when your parents wasn't using the TV. I understand it gained a higher cultural significance and with that comes trouble, but boy I miss the time when the most heated arguments you could have about video games were about the secret rooms in Super Mario, or the alternate ending in Alex Kidd that your buddy made up just to mess with you.

    16 votes
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. mrbig
        Link Parent
        That is true. Being an asshole on the internet is largely consequence-free.

        That is true. Being an asshole on the internet is largely consequence-free.

        2 votes
    2. [2]
      nothis
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I think it mostly comes down to the alt-right managing to sell lonely internet nerds on the fantasy that it's "the women's fault". I'll never quite understand the mental gymnastics around...

      I think it mostly comes down to the alt-right managing to sell lonely internet nerds on the fantasy that it's "the women's fault". I'll never quite understand the mental gymnastics around gamergate, deciding that gaming journalism's biggest problem was female indie devs sleeping with journalists to get coverage. It was all downhill from there.

      13 votes
      1. mrbig
        Link Parent
        It's ironic that such an insignificant amount of privilege loss leads to such exaggerated reactions. Imagine how bad it feels having no privilege at all...

        It's ironic that such an insignificant amount of privilege loss leads to such exaggerated reactions. Imagine how bad it feels having no privilege at all...

        1 vote
  4. [2]
    unknown user
    Link
    So, I, uh... I took a look at the album of examples the mods have provided. They're screenshots of some of the most outrageous behavior the mods had encountered over time. The experience of...

    So, I, uh... I took a look at the album of examples the mods have provided. They're screenshots of some of the most outrageous behavior the mods had encountered over time. The experience of reading through those screenshots reminded me of the video where men had to read someone else's misogynistic tweets to the faces of female sports reporters: it starts off kinda okay, considering the topic, and then it just... escalates. I could only read through about a third of those.

    I'd like to just leave here one reply that struck me in particular. "Interesting" is not the right word for how it feels, but it clearly stands out. Parent comment for context:

    As a Chinese, I'm so happy that more of our culture and history is spread throughout the world. The Three Kingdoms was a really captivating time which dramatically affect our culture for future dynasties.

    And the reply itself, with spelling and syntax retained:

    Fuck off chink. No one cares about 3000 years of Chinese history. One authortorian dynasty after the next. Millions of peasants dying at the whims of insane emperors. Just horrible and not interesting.

    So boring.

    On a different note, Au(thor/tor)ian Regime is a cool name either for a punk band, or an collective of writers from all over the world.

    14 votes
    1. Dragon
      Link Parent
      I really like the "men had to read someone else's misogynistic tweets to the faces of female sports reporters" video's idea and messege, but a lot of the comments are missing the point as they all...

      I really like the "men had to read someone else's misogynistic tweets to the faces of female sports reporters" video's idea and messege, but a lot of the comments are missing the point as they all go to extreme in one direction, it's a mix of "it's the internet, chill dude" and "men bad" but I do really like that video as it has a good point and example.

      Edit: now that I look at it, I think I'm exspecting to much from youtube comments

      2 votes
  5. [2]
    TheInvaderZim
    Link
    Having now distanced myself from reddit, it blows my mind how toxic the gaming culture there was. Even the smallish sub I took part in ended up being infected by it. Cant blame the mods of games...

    Having now distanced myself from reddit, it blows my mind how toxic the gaming culture there was. Even the smallish sub I took part in ended up being infected by it.

    Cant blame the mods of games for trying. Cant believe that itll do anything either, though

    12 votes
    1. Dragon
      Link Parent
      r/gaming dosen't work because it's too general, something like r/RecRoom or r/Minecraft works because it's over a common interest and not just any and every video game ever, so it just devoted...

      r/gaming dosen't work because it's too general, something like r/RecRoom or r/Minecraft works because it's over a common interest and not just any and every video game ever, so it just devoted into memes about nothing.

      5 votes
  6. Autoxidation
    Link
    It's nice they're doing this, but I really wonder how much of an effect it will really have. I was (and still am) a part of the /r/planetside moderation team, and witnessed the huge torrent of...

    It's nice they're doing this, but I really wonder how much of an effect it will really have. I was (and still am) a part of the /r/planetside moderation team, and witnessed the huge torrent of hateful posts and speech after the "500 word essay" debacle occured. Here's the thread that started it all on the awful gamergate sub. And here is a somewhat reasonable recap of the whole thing around the time it happened.

    I can't even start to guess how many users were banned, posts were deleted, and automod rules were written to curb the complete insanity that followed that day, but it was a lot. I spent most of the next few days coordinating with the other mods as we attempted to keep the subreddit somewhat normal.

    I do think the general community has improved since that incident, but still has quite a ways to go.

    8 votes
  7. [10]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. TheJorro
      Link Parent
      I think this is exactly the right kind of result. It's very clear that that subreddit took every opportunity they could to twist the words of the r/Games mods to warp it into their own alternate...

      And of course, r/pcgaming had to weigh in. I'm not going to bother linking it, but it went exactly how you would expect if you're familiar at all with the culture of that sub.

      I think this is exactly the right kind of result. It's very clear that that subreddit took every opportunity they could to twist the words of the r/Games mods to warp it into their own alternate reality where they could claim moral superiority.

      In a sense, I view this move by the r/Games moderators to expose the bad communities by giving them an opportunity to either join them in an act against aggression and hostility, or show their true colours by engaging in aggression and hostility. r/pcgaming showed itself today, and they're not the only subreddit.

      8 votes
    2. [6]
      Grzmot
      Link Parent
      I don't know if I would classify the issue as pervasive or even extremely pervasive. The larger community is fine, as the images shown in the post are all very much downvoted (or are replies...

      I applaud the r/games mods for taking a stand on this extremely pervasive issue on their sub.

      I don't know if I would classify the issue as pervasive or even extremely pervasive. The larger community is fine, as the images shown in the post are all very much downvoted (or are replies buried so deep in the comments that barely anyone ever sees them and as such, hover around the 1 point line when they get deleted).

      I think it's still good to call attention to this (especially with the charities in the post), even if the reactions won't always be positive, but to extrapolate from these 71 deleted comments on the rest of the r/Games community (or even the Gaming community as a whole, even if does have a myriad of problems) would be wrong. Such comments are clearly disliked, downvoted and reported by a number of people.

      7 votes
      1. [3]
        TheJorro
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Those are just a sampling of 71 comments, to show the extremity of the language. The range of comments that express similar opinions range well into the accepted comments across the subreddit....

        but to extrapolate from these 71 deleted comments on the rest of the r/Games community (or even the Gaming community as a whole, even if does have a myriad of problems) would be wrong.

        Those are just a sampling of 71 comments, to show the extremity of the language. The range of comments that express similar opinions range well into the accepted comments across the subreddit. When you account for those, the numbers go up by multiple times.

        The idea that the 71 deleted comments are the total representation of what they're referring to is, itself, a disingenuous argument. The mods did not present it that way ("From bigotry to vitriol, this album merely scratches the surface of the magnitude of the problem."), it is just being taken that way to manufacture a counterpoint.

        You want a better measure to see what the mods are getting at? Find the last ten occasions that r/Games was able to calmly and rationally have a discussion about minority status, LGBT issues, or diversity in video games. If the r/Games community was perfectly capable of discussing those topics, and it was really just a few bad apples, then this shouldn't be a difficult thing to do.

        But you'll have to dig through years worth of heavily downvoted submissions to do it.

        8 votes
        1. [2]
          Grzmot
          Link Parent
          People will always find colourful ways to insult each other. The way I read the post was that the mods were trying to highlight how fucked up the community is, when the shown behaviour in the...

          People will always find colourful ways to insult each other. The way I read the post was that the mods were trying to highlight how fucked up the community is, when the shown behaviour in the screenshots already wasn't accepted, it was actively shunned with downvotes and reports. If they wanted to prove their point they should've picked better examples. All they did was show that a small minority of the r/Games community were bigots. Which isn't anything new, as you'll find bigots anywhere because you can't cure humanity of assholes.

          I'm not claiming that these 71 coments are the only ones. Only that the community has already ostracized them and as such, it would be wrong to claim that the rest of the community is either sheltering such behaviour or even actively supporting it.

          I won't say that the discussions you're referencing to always happen in a clean fashion, but most people don't care about such things as female protagonists, or having LGBT representation in games. Games or series with such components rank among the most beloved of all time, like Mass Effect or Tomb Raider.

          1 vote
          1. TheJorro
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            That's just reiterating the earlier claims in different language, though. The difference between the earlier reading and what was actually being said isn't addressed. The mods would only have...

            That's just reiterating the earlier claims in different language, though. The difference between the earlier reading and what was actually being said isn't addressed. The mods would only have needed to pick better examples if the earlier claim was true. The delta needs to be addressed.

            The earlier claim that 71 comments were used as a representative sampling, and not the example of extremity that they actually were, and a direct line from those select 71 comments to the entire community was drawn as an "extrapolation" to describe the logos of the mods' actions. There's no room in the earlier statement for this revised version you're providing of "I acknowledged there were more", the earlier claim was that the mods made a call for the entire community based on some extreme examples. But, again, that wasn't the situation. You should address the delta here.

            And why is it that all the justifications come back to "the community says nuh uh"? This post was about what the community consistently fails to do. There is a demonstrable way to show it—there's a big difference between ignoring and suppressing. The subreddit community has actively suppressed it, not ignored it. r/truegames shows what actual ignoring looks like. You are continuing to avoid addressing it in favour of "the community downvoted those extremists though!" Well, just because my racist neighbour doesn't like white nationalism doesn't mean she's not racist when she calls every black person the n-word—she still needs to be called out on her racism.

            The mods say the community has trouble discussing some subjects with civility. The users responded by failing to discuss those things with civility. Hiding behind "most people just don't care" is a cop-out argument. The community is clearly incapable of having a rational discussion about those topics, and the whole point is that maybe they should start caring about these things a little so that these extremists get pushed out instead of making any excuse to avoid and suppress them, therefore providing a home for the extremists to feel comfortable.

            Don't forget, GamerGate was a testbed for Breitbart, Steve Bannon, Trumpism, and the alt-right because gamers kept their head so in the sand about these topics that they let themselves get easily swindled by figures like Jordan Peterson, who came around swinging their slippery slope arguments—it's not like gamers were armed with the basic knowledge they needed to combat such misinformation since they kept their heads in the sand so hard that they start suppressing basic information. Why would anyone want to let that weakpoint continue on unless they want gamers to continue being a training ground for alt-right ideology?

            2 votes
      2. Catt
        Link Parent
        Personally, and this relates to the online activities as a whole, both intensity and frequently needs to be taken into account. In this case, the intensity of these comments justified the need to...

        ...but to extrapolate from these 71 deleted comments on the rest of the r/Games community (or even the Gaming community as a whole, even if does have a myriad of problems) would be wrong. Such comments are clearly disliked, downvoted and reported by a number of people.

        Personally, and this relates to the online activities as a whole, both intensity and frequently needs to be taken into account. In this case, the intensity of these comments justified the need to address them.

        3 votes
      3. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. Grzmot
          Link Parent
          I had the same reaction at the start when I first read through the post and saw the comments. Disgust is natural here. But as I cooled down over a few hours and read a few differing opinions on...

          I had the same reaction at the start when I first read through the post and saw the comments. Disgust is natural here. But as I cooled down over a few hours and read a few differing opinions on the subject, I came to the conclusion that it isn't as simple as the mod team wants you to believe.

    3. [2]
      PopeRigby
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      What's wrong with r/pcgaming? They seem to be supporting the decision. Edit: well I read through the comments, and lot's of the top ones are negative, but the OP and mod seem to respect their...

      What's wrong with r/pcgaming? They seem to be supporting the decision.

      Edit: well I read through the comments, and lot's of the top ones are negative, but the OP and mod seem to respect their decision.

      Edit2: Looks like there are lots of T_D users flooding in. That may be the reason? I'm on pcgaming somewhat often, and I've never seen comments this bad. So I guess that makes sense. Here's someone talking about it.

      5 votes
      1. nothis
        Link Parent
        Somehow, the more I read about people predicting "the Streisand effect", the more it feels like they're actively hoping for it.

        Somehow, the more I read about people predicting "the Streisand effect", the more it feels like they're actively hoping for it.

        4 votes
  8. [12]
    Grzmot
    Link
    I usually miss the worst of it, simply because of timezones and me living in Europe, most of the shit is already cleansed from discussions when I arrive. But I also rarely dive deep into the...

    I usually miss the worst of it, simply because of timezones and me living in Europe, most of the shit is already cleansed from discussions when I arrive. But I also rarely dive deep into the comments, I only read uppermost top comments and their replies and that's it. And since it's usually been ~6 hours since the thread was created, there's enough time for all the bad, insufferable comments to be downvoted to the bottom and good comments staying on top.

    One should never underestimate the amount of literal shit that moderators in large online communities such as reddit have to wade through to keep the discussion mostly intact. And they do it for free for some reason. Moderators are the only stopping reddit from tearing itself apart at the seams. We should probably make Thank the mods a holiday or something.

    5 votes
    1. [11]
      Crespyl
      Link Parent
      So this is where I start to feel out of touch with the mod teams basis for their decision. /r/games is such a huge (and constantly growing) "community", as is reddit as a whole, that there will...

      there's enough time for all the bad, insufferable comments to be downvoted to the bottom and good comments staying on top.

      So this is where I start to feel out of touch with the mod teams basis for their decision. /r/games is such a huge (and constantly growing) "community", as is reddit as a whole, that there will always be bad actors making the kind of posts they highlight. This is a problem that can never be fixed by any public community of that size, it's just a fundamental issue with large enough groups of humans.

      What can be done is to make sure that such behavior is shunned, never celebrated, and not allowed to become the norm. If the type of behavior the mods highlight in their post were overrunning the sub, or being celebrated with mass upvotes, I'd be more sympathetic to drastic action like this; but as it is, all their examples of removed comments seem to already be heavily downvoted (or else removed before the larger community noticed them to begin downvoting).

      This suggests to me that the vast majority of the community are, indeed, well behaved and are acting correctly to downvote/shun these bad actors, which makes the decision to punish and shame the entire community for the (certainly real) sins of the very few seem ill considered. It seems like this just serves to preach to the choir of members who are most aligned with the mods, annoy/frustrate the (I presume largest) portion of users who are largely well behaved but don't bother to follow the drama, and further enrage the bad actors who now have more ammunition to point and say "look how censorious/bad/outrageous/whatever the mods are!"

      April Fools Day is also just a really really weird choice to make a point like this, literally any other day would serve their point better. Even as they say "this is not a joke" it still seems to suggest that they wouldn't have considered doing something this drastic outside of the context of everyone else goofing off and making jokes. It just seems like really bad timing for making a serious point of something.

      4 votes
      1. [10]
        TheJorro
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        This reading seems to be the crux of your viewpoint, and it's 100% of your own making. The mods are undertaking this endeavour to call attention to the sheer volume of shit they see on the...

        This suggests to me that the vast majority of the community are, indeed, well behaved and are acting correctly to downvote/shun these bad actors, which makes the decision to punish and shame the entire community for the (certainly real) sins of the very few seem ill considered.

        This reading seems to be the crux of your viewpoint, and it's 100% of your own making. The mods are undertaking this endeavour to call attention to the sheer volume of shit they see on the subreddit on a regular basis, but you're taking issue with it because you feel... punished?

        Frankly, if anyone is so upset with the mods after legitimately reading and understanding their position and their message, then I really have to question what those people are really after. Because it certainly doesn't seem to be civil discourse if they're more upset with the call to attention than the people who are actively engaging in or tacitly accepting (through inaction) such behaviours.

        The whole argument about "it's just a few bad apples!" is, simply put, basic. It's misunderstanding that the mods are showing the extreme side of it, and that the general message and tone is so accepted that there are dozens upon dozens upon hundreds of people out there trying to put hateful messaging onto the subreddit. It also shows an ignorance of the challenge of moderating a gaming forum in the post-GamerGate era, when "bad actors" are making tactical choices to enter into certain topics and spread their insidiuous bullshit. It's not just a coincidence what charities were linked to in the bottom of that post.

        The point isn't that the small minority of the subreddit aren't representative, it's that they exist an the subreddit community doesn't do enough to stop it. Downvotes on reddit are not an example of action, that's just statistical at this point (especially for how extreme some of those comments are—but I see much more refined versions of the same viewpoints on that subreddit regularly that get passed over because they're not as explicitly hateful). The point is that there needs to be a concentrated effort from the community to not stoop to hostility and aggression when making comments at all, not that they should flag and get rid of the extremists. Those extremists are only out in such numbers because the subreddit community encourages an environment where they can thrive.

        And April Fools is a) a day of attention and heavy traffic, and b) a rather useless day for news or discussion.

        7 votes
        1. Crespyl
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I am always opposed to collective punishment of the whole for the bad behavior of the few, whether it's denying the entire class recess because of the two troublemakers in the back, or taking away...

          I am always opposed to collective punishment of the whole for the bad behavior of the few, whether it's denying the entire class recess because of the two troublemakers in the back, or taking away a community space because a hateful minority exists.

          It's not that I personally feel reproached for my actions, it's more that I don't like the pattern of finding a loudly unpleasant minority and using them to paint the larger community with the same bad colors. Phrases like "our community is becoming increasingly responsible for..." feels off-center: the community is who's responsible for downvoting and reporting all those posts into oblivion; the hateful minority should not be held as representative of the whole.

          I think you're attributing a greater degree of frustration/upset to me than I actually hold, and I don't really care for the suggestion that I perhaps haven't read their post, or am somehow trying to be less than civil.

          And April Fools is a) a day of attention and heavy traffic, and b) a rather useless day for news or discussion.

          a) is a fair enough point, but there are certainly other days that would achieve the same purpose, and b) is precisely why I think it makes a poor choice for starting a discussion.

          Edit: In between me reading your response and writing this comment, you added substantially to it, so I want to be clear that the above was written responding to your original comment.

          I disagree that downvotes are not an action, indeed downvotes and reports are among the only actions that non-mod community members have at their disposal. The only other option is to make further comments and replies calling out the offending user, which is often exhausting and only rarely useful.

          5 votes
        2. [8]
          mememeup
          Link Parent
          This whole thing is ridiculous. It's not punishing, but it is the wrong demonstration. I see shitty comments getting down-voted en-masse all the time. That's what you want to see. You want to...

          This whole thing is ridiculous. It's not punishing, but it is the wrong demonstration. I see shitty comments getting down-voted en-masse all the time. That's what you want to see. You want to scroll down and see that the community decided these things were so nonconstructive that they collectively decided to downvote it. The community is doing its job. Seeing the community respond to this shit in that way is a good thing. Mods are expected to deal with shit. Appealing to their authority to police the subreddit is not the correct course of action, especially with the community is shunning the maligned as it was intended.

          Mods broadcast that "the community is shit look at these extreme examples" is a really shitty thing to do especially when the community they are responding to also said those extreme examples are shit.

          Reducing this construct as "basic" is disingenuous. Dozens and hundreds of people are NOTHING compared to a community that size over 100k. So yes, it is just a few bad apples.

          3 votes
          1. [7]
            TheJorro
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I don't want to see those extremely shitty comments being downvoted. I want to see people making comments like that rejected from having a platform at all. Downvotes aren't good enough and relying...

            I don't want to see those extremely shitty comments being downvoted. I want to see people making comments like that rejected from having a platform at all.

            Downvotes aren't good enough and relying on community self-policing is tantamount to putting up a MISSION ACCOMPLISHED sign on an aircraft carrier. You're sweeping shit under the rug. Shit's still going to stink, even when it's hidden.

            The mere presence of the viewpoints, downvoted to the bottom or not, is on some level an acceptance of those positions by the platform. There are people in those hidden comments who are encouraging and agreeing with each other. Unpopularity is not an anathema to extreme or bad ideas, it's just an aspect that can be leveraged into martyrdom or "inconvenient truths" (look no further than r/unpopularopinions).

            I think it says enough that all the detractors to this endeavour are trying to force in the idea of "they're blaming the entire community for a few bad apples". The mod post doesn't suggest this at all, and it does acknowledge that there are members of the community who do try to do better, but this is how you've chosen to read it, backed up by an unverified paraphrasing that you are treating as fact. It's false. The post is clearly asking everyone to examine the situation, consider it, and then try to do better to be more accepting of discussing the highlighted issues.

            Quite frankly, I think people who are suggesting that the gaming community, and even r/Games, is mostly accepting of healthy discussions of LGBT issues, minority statuses, and diversity by virtue of "it's just a few bad apples who are so against it" are either liars or fools. Who would seriously argue that gamers are by and large allies of the LGBT community? r/Games hasn't had a healthy discussion on those subjects in years. Every single time something like that is posted, you'll find it heavily downvoted with plenty of comments that do exactly what the mod post claims: trivializing the issues in an effort to dismiss and avoid them.

            That is what the mod team is pointing out. Where is this in your analysis?

            The construct of "it's just a few bad apples" remains basic, you haven't given me any reason to believe it's not. You instead doubled down on a mischaracterization to suggest that it's not basic.

            5 votes
            1. [6]
              Crespyl
              Link Parent
              Setting aside interpretation of the mod post; what does "rejected from having a platform at all" mean to you if not a) mass downvoting, b) removal by mod, and c) banning the user from the sub,...

              I don't want to see those extremely shitty comments being downvoted. I want to see people making comments like that rejected from having a platform at all.

              Setting aside interpretation of the mod post; what does "rejected from having a platform at all" mean to you if not a) mass downvoting, b) removal by mod, and c) banning the user from the sub, which are all actions already being taken?

              3 votes
              1. [5]
                TheJorro
                Link Parent
                The userbase collectively reject tolerating it at all.

                The userbase collectively reject tolerating it at all.

                2 votes
                1. [4]
                  Crespyl
                  Link Parent
                  I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm still not sure how that substantially differs from the current situation (the userbase already collectively downvotes and reports this behavior, they do not...

                  I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but I'm still not sure how that substantially differs from the current situation (the userbase already collectively downvotes and reports this behavior, they do not want it).

                  Given that, as long as /r/games is open to the public, there will always be some number of people making these comments (and getting downvoted/reported for their efforts), what, from your perspective, would a hypothetical perfectly "fixed" version of /r/games look like in five years?

                  2 votes
                  1. [3]
                    TheJorro
                    Link Parent
                    I'll repeat a claim I made above to explain how the userbase is not making the call for it: I can recall many, many occasions when a perfectly good thinkpiece was posted to the subreddit only to...

                    I'll repeat a claim I made above to explain how the userbase is not making the call for it:

                    r/Games hasn't had a healthy discussion on those subjects in years. Every single time something like that is posted, you'll find it heavily downvoted with plenty of comments that do exactly what the mod post claims: trivializing the issues in an effort to dismiss and avoid them.

                    I can recall many, many occasions when a perfectly good thinkpiece was posted to the subreddit only to be as heavily rejected as these same comments. Downvotes aren't acting as a rejection of the opinion stated, it's acting as a "keep it hidden" button. Keeping something hidden is not the same as refusing something entirely. There are plenty who will agree with these extreme types just for the mutual goal of suppressing these discussions. That should not be happening, that should not be tolerated.

                    If r/Games can manage to become a subreddit where discussion around minorities, LGBT issues, or diversity matters can be expected to happen in reasonable, rational ways, then I'll consider it a success. The question is about how to get to that point, and the mods calling out the sub's inability to do it is a good first step.

                    7 votes
                    1. [2]
                      Crespyl
                      Link Parent
                      Thanks! This is a much clearer vision, and helps make it clear what you're looking for other than "<x> bad behavior shouldn't be accepted". I still think this particular action is ill suited to...

                      Thanks! This is a much clearer vision, and helps make it clear what you're looking for other than "<x> bad behavior shouldn't be accepted".

                      I still think this particular action is ill suited to work towards this goal of shepherding a community into being able to have these discussions, but at least I have a better idea of what the ideal end-state is intended to be.

                      If I were to spitball an alternative, and still using the 4/1 date, perhaps the mod team could have decided to swap the sub with a minority issue sub for the day, or choose to only allow threads about minority issues in gaming or comments by users self-identifying as a minority. This would still have plenty of problems I'm sure, but at least would be somewhat in keeping with the chaos of April First, and better serve to create discussion than to stop it.

                      In fact, more seriously, if the keepers of a community really want to enable and encourage constructive dialogue around a topic, it seems like it might be better to explicitly set aside some recurring time period (say one day a month, or week, or two hours a day, etc) exclusively to discuss that topic and be extra tight with the constructive warnings/suspension/ban for users who are out of line during that period. "This is Minority Issues Day, all threads must involve minority issues/etc. All comments must be constructive/supportive/etc." I'm sure it would be a rough start, but over time people can get used to anything, and it seems better to guide by building examples of the ideal behavior rather than slamming the doors and shouting "we have a problem!"

                      5 votes
                      1. TheJorro
                        Link Parent
                        Ah, but there's the rub. What kind of discussions would it be creating? Based on the subreddit's history, it wouldn't exactly be discussions that those listed charities or any LGBT+ organization...

                        This would still have plenty of problems I'm sure, but at least would be somewhat in keeping with the chaos of April First, and better serve to create discussion than to stop it.

                        Ah, but there's the rub. What kind of discussions would it be creating? Based on the subreddit's history, it wouldn't exactly be discussions that those listed charities or any LGBT+ organization would call supportive, or empathetic, or productive. This is a subreddit that regularly suppresses any discussion about those issues, I think it's very, very optimistic to believe they'll suddenly have good discussions when forced to only talk about those subjects.

                        4 votes
  9. iwinalot7
    Link
    Good on y'all for doing this. I've been talking to my friends about the toxicity of the gaming culture now for months

    Good on y'all for doing this. I've been talking to my friends about the toxicity of the gaming culture now for months

    5 votes
  10. [3]
    FZeroRacer
    Link
    The subreddit is back up and as you'd expect, there's a lot of whining and crying from people in the stickied thread that manages to proves the mod's right. My favorite is people getting upset...

    The subreddit is back up and as you'd expect, there's a lot of whining and crying from people in the stickied thread that manages to proves the mod's right.

    My favorite is people getting upset that protesting homophobia means that the 4chan and /r/the_donald types are going to start trolling the sub endlessly. As if, you know, that somehow doesn't prove their point.

    5 votes
    1. [2]
      kfwyre
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      If I had to put my finger on the pulse of those comments, I'd say that the dominant feeling is frustration. This is actually a good thing, because it's the empathy tool so many of those commenters...
      • Exemplary

      If I had to put my finger on the pulse of those comments, I'd say that the dominant feeling is frustration.

      This is actually a good thing, because it's the empathy tool so many of those commenters need right now. I want to sit down with them for a chat: "As a gay gamer, I'm frustrated too! I have been for a long time now! Doesn't this frustrated feeling suck? Isn't it obnoxious when someone ruins your community like that? Don't you feel unfairly judged? Aren't you bothered that a single post can make you feel such outrage? Don't you just want to be able to enjoy your games without other stuff getting in the way?"

      The reality of this whole situation is that the feeling they got from a strongly worded post and a 24 hour interruption is what I've had to put up with for years.

      Unfortunately, it's probably going to be nigh impossible to reach anyone with this commonality. I feel like very few people are going to walk away having learned something from this. The soft bigotry of democratizing feelings lets the majority believe their frustrations are valid while the frustrations of minorities are invalid, and reddit's voting will no doubt play this out once again.

      I can say that I'm frustrated with how I and my queer siblings in the community have been treated, but that frustration won't have a corresponding resonance. It won't be at the top of the comments. We'll instead get the response that you can find in plenty of the responses already: "It's not that bad." This is the placating lie we're always told. I've heard it for decades now. It goes hand in hand with ones like "you have to expect some homophobia--it is the internet, after all." Or "they don't mean the word 'fag'--they're just saying it because they're angry."

      I've heard every excuse for why my frustrations over the years shouldn't be seen as valid. It's at the point where my heart has hardened a bit and I don't have the patience I once used to. I used to be in those threads trying to not only stand up for myself but also get others to see with empathy. I thought that if maybe more people like me spoke up we'd get everyone to see what it was really like for us, and once they saw that, they'd surely quit their hate, right?

      I'm now much more jaded, but I'm also much less compromising. Because I was treated like an outcast, I trod like I was on borrowed ground. Like gaming was a place I was visiting and had to behave otherwise I wouldn't be allowed to stay.

      Not anymore. The most important lesson I've learned from the gaming community isn't one that was explicitly taught but that I came to by attrition over the years: my dignity is non-negotiable. There is no acceptable amount of discrimination I should have to face. If you roll the die of discrimination the expected value should be a zero. Every fucking time. And I don't have to have anyone's permission to be here.

      Why do I know this? Simple. Because I don't suddenly get racist in games. My friends don't have a default level of homophobia that I abide by. Rape jokes don't magically come forth from the aether. These are all done consciously, willingly, and by people who know better. I teach children every day for a living, and they already know better. It's one of the first things they learn. You cannot tell me it's ignorance. Hate is either a conscious decision to discriminate or a conscious decision to numb empathy. It is not a default. It is not a given.

      So, allow me to vent my frustration. It's been boiling for years--much longer than the 24 hours that have suddenly ignited the flames of justice for so many commenters in there: I'm frustrated that gaming accepts hate speech as a fundamental inevitability. I'm frustrated that responsive measures to existing hate speech are seen as victories when no thought is given to not fucking doing it in the first place. I'm frustrated that when those of us affected speak up about it we're told to accept it, ignore it, and stop ruining the good times of others. I'm tired of having my good time ruined by others. And I'm tired of my good time being seen as less important to someone else's.

      I was happy to see the original post, and I'm happy to see the frustration in the comments, because that's often what sparks change. Unfortunately I don't know how many of them are going to apply empathy. That doesn't seem to be a highly valued skill in gaming. Instead we expect every new item to be a weapon, immediately looking down its sights for the nearest enemy. I hope some people realize that the frustration they were given isn't a weapon but a quest marker. I hope they follow it, solve the puzzle, and level up.

      I'm doubtful, but I hope.

      5 votes
      1. Akir
        Link Parent
        This was worth repeating. People arguing that this kind of behavior is acceptable because it's "in the heat of the moment" are delusional. I can't help but think that these people use this defense...

        Why do I know this? Simple. Because I don't suddenly get racist in games. My friends don't have a default level of homophobia that I abide by. Rape jokes don't magically come forth from the aether. These are all done consciously, willingly, and by people who know better. I teach children every day for a living, and they already know better. It's one of the first things they learn. You cannot tell me it's ignorance. Hate is either a conscious decision to discriminate or a conscious decision to numb empathy. It is not a default. It is not a given.

        This was worth repeating.

        People arguing that this kind of behavior is acceptable because it's "in the heat of the moment" are delusional. I can't help but think that these people use this defense because they secretly have these same views but don't want to admit it. I know that doesn't describe everyone, but I think it's a sizable amount. Perhaps most simply don't want to believe that those views were so common.

        This denialism is everywhere, too. A while back we had someone here on Tildes trying to defend PewDiePie's racist remarks. But as long as this denialism continues, it helps to perpetuate and validate the use of these toxic remarks. And that needs to stop.

        4 votes
  11. kfwyre
    Link
    In case anyone is thinking it's an April Fool's joke (like I was), it's not. They say so in the beginning of the post, but I read through most of it still guarded and feeling like it might be a...

    In case anyone is thinking it's an April Fool's joke (like I was), it's not. They say so in the beginning of the post, but I read through most of it still guarded and feeling like it might be a disarming tactic to set up for a punchline (which would have been in terrible taste). There is no punchline. The message is entirely in earnest.

    4 votes