61 votes

Minecraft creator Notch excluded from 10-year anniversary plans for the game because of his "comments and opinions"

87 comments

  1. [28]
    cfabbro
    (edited )
    Link
    The article mentions a few of his controversial, borderline racist/homophobic tweets... but IMO the most damning are the ones that revealed the fact he is a diehard QAnon believer (read the whole...

    The article mentions a few of his controversial, borderline racist/homophobic tweets... but IMO the most damning are the ones that revealed the fact he is a diehard QAnon believer (read the whole chain). Fuck Notch.

    43 votes
    1. Kraetos
      Link Parent
      Somewhere on Reddit I saw a rather glib encapsulation of this whole situation that I admit gave me a chuckle: "Imagine being a billionaire and still being a loser."

      Fuck Notch.

      Somewhere on Reddit I saw a rather glib encapsulation of this whole situation that I admit gave me a chuckle: "Imagine being a billionaire and still being a loser."

      33 votes
    2. [6]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [5]
        cfabbro
        Link Parent
        Holy shit... I didn't know about that one. That's disgusting.

        Holy shit... I didn't know about that one. That's disgusting.

        12 votes
        1. [4]
          Wes
          Link Parent
          I feel like I'm missing something. What is the tweet in response to? What is the "amazing bigotry removed" bit? I'm guessing the implication is that he's against women's suffrage, but I can't tell...

          I feel like I'm missing something. What is the tweet in response to? What is the "amazing bigotry removed" bit?

          I'm guessing the implication is that he's against women's suffrage, but I can't tell if it's meant to be ironic (read: "edgelordy") without any context.

          4 votes
          1. [3]
            cfabbro
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            He originally tweeted using the N-word and then, likely after realizing that would get him banned from twitter, he deleted it and tweeted a modified version with (AMAZING BIGOTRY REMOVED) in its...

            He originally tweeted using the N-word and then, likely after realizing that would get him banned from twitter, he deleted it and tweeted a modified version with (AMAZING BIGOTRY REMOVED) in its place. But someone had already screengrabbed the original tweet and replied to the new, modified tweet with it so Notch's racism was archived and displayed for all to see.

            No idea what Notch's tweet was in response to though as @‍jazmcdougall's original tweet (and account) appear to have been deleted.

            edit: Found an archive of the original tweet Notch replied to:
            http://img.ifcdn.com/images/2a677672f58868a7403fd886681aad32e35b555d1b4af57ee0aecea99106aa23_1.jpg

            It doesn't really make what was being discussed any clearer though.

            12 votes
    3. [6]
      krg
      Link Parent
      What the hell?? I don't really follow that dude's Tweets, but I was aware of some of the more edgy stuff. Didn't know he totally entrenched himself this deep, though. Well, I've only put 5 hours...

      What the hell?? I don't really follow that dude's Tweets, but I was aware of some of the more edgy stuff. Didn't know he totally entrenched himself this deep, though.

      Well, I've only put 5 hours max into playing Minecraft, and that was ages ago...

      7 votes
      1. [3]
        DanBC
        Link Parent
        Minecraft the game is good. Notch is no longer involved in anyway. MS have even removed references to Notch from the splash screens.

        Minecraft the game is good. Notch is no longer involved in anyway. MS have even removed references to Notch from the splash screens.

        27 votes
        1. [2]
          krg
          Link Parent
          Right. I did purchase my copy long before Microsoft was involved, though.

          Right. I did purchase my copy long before Microsoft was involved, though.

          4 votes
          1. cfabbro
            Link Parent
            Ditto. But we don't need to feel guilty about it either, IMO. Nobody could have predicted what an ass Notch would turn out to be 8-ish years later.

            Ditto. But we don't need to feel guilty about it either, IMO. Nobody could have predicted what an ass Notch would turn out to be 8-ish years later.

            17 votes
      2. [2]
        Heichou
        Link Parent
        I don't see a point in associating his creation with his views. He may have started the game, but he had a studio of people working on it as well (Mojang). Despite his transformation into a...

        I don't see a point in associating his creation with his views. He may have started the game, but he had a studio of people working on it as well (Mojang). Despite his transformation into a pariah, Minecraft is still a very good and very enjoyable game (unless you hate MC mechanically). Minecraft is a very good game I've played since 2013. It's a cultural touchstone (a tad grandiose, I know) that I feel has transcended its initial creator

        17 votes
        1. krg
          Link Parent
          Oh, I most definitely don't. I just wanted to give context for how little I knew about the guy.

          Oh, I most definitely don't. I just wanted to give context for how little I knew about the guy.

          3 votes
    4. [14]
      firstname
      Link Parent
      I read the chain but i still don´t understand what this QAnon movement is. I should probably not waste my time learning what it is from the looks of it...

      I read the chain but i still don´t understand what this QAnon movement is. I should probably not waste my time learning what it is from the looks of it...

      6 votes
      1. [2]
        Grzmot
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        In short: there's a dude on 4chan claiming to be some high horse in the Whitehouse, calling himself Q. He's put some wild shit out there, at some point claiming that Trump is playing 4D chess...

        In short: there's a dude on 4chan claiming to be some high horse in the Whitehouse, calling himself Q. He's put some wild shit out there, at some point claiming that Trump is playing 4D chess working to uncover some secret democrat pedophile ring and that's why he's doing such dumb shit in public.

        Basically, trumpet voters in denial that they voted a fucking idiot into office.

        22 votes
        1. ghostsplosion
          Link Parent
          I am positive I saw something where the person said the Q thing was all a load of bullshit. There were like 3 or 4 of them who would come up with this stuff to troll.

          I am positive I saw something where the person said the Q thing was all a load of bullshit. There were like 3 or 4 of them who would come up with this stuff to troll.

          2 votes
      2. [6]
        hamstergeddon
        Link Parent
        It's basically this big, stupid conspiracy that Trump is so awesome that there's a deep state effort to make him look bad because he's secretly the ring leader of this massive effort to shutdown a...

        It's basically this big, stupid conspiracy that Trump is so awesome that there's a deep state effort to make him look bad because he's secretly the ring leader of this massive effort to shutdown a sex-trafficking ring run and used by literally whoever opposes Trump (but usually it's Clinton or Obama). According to wikipedia's recounting of this theory, Trump played along with Mueller and acted guilty as a cover for Mueller investigating this alleged sex-trafficking ring.

        Evidently "Q" is the one responsible for this entire thing. He claims to have inside information that he selectively leaks periodically along with theories. Given everything we know about Russian efforts to undermine US politics and influence our elections, I think it's pretty obvious to anyone with an IQ higher than their favorite NFL quarterback's number that "Q" is some identity used by Russian intelligence to sow discord. Or maybe it's just some ass hole with nothing better to do, who knows.

        10 votes
        1. [2]
          alyaza
          Link Parent
          as far as investigations into who Q is have gone the most likely answer is that it's just a bunch of randos fucking with people in a way that took off beyond their wildest imaginations. Q's...

          I think it's pretty obvious to anyone with an IQ higher than their favorite NFL quarterback's number that "Q" is some identity used by Russian intelligence to sow discord. Or maybe it's just some ass hole with nothing better to do, who knows.

          as far as investigations into who Q is have gone the most likely answer is that it's just a bunch of randos fucking with people in a way that took off beyond their wildest imaginations. Q's tripcode has been leaked a few times because of shitty opsec on the part of the people running the whole thing, and the simplest answer points to it being the work of not-especially-sophisticated actors who are most likely trolls that just happened to stumble into some of the most potent boomer-conspiracy fuel imaginable, mostly on accident.

          14 votes
          1. NaraVara
            Link Parent
            Boomers were never cognitively prepared to handle the Internet. Those of us who grew up with it were irony poisoned slowly, able to graduate to carrying ourselves through more and more horrid...

            Boomers were never cognitively prepared to handle the Internet. Those of us who grew up with it were irony poisoned slowly, able to graduate to carrying ourselves through more and more horrid shit.

            But Boomers went straight from Fox News to 4Chan. They were not prepared. The TV turned their brains to mush and the internet molded it.

            7 votes
        2. [3]
          frickindeal
          Link Parent
          Who the hell in his White House has even been there long enough to be the guy? I don't think anyone from when it first started are still employed there, are they? His entire cabinet is in "acting"...

          Who the hell in his White House has even been there long enough to be the guy? I don't think anyone from when it first started are still employed there, are they? His entire cabinet is in "acting" positions.

          10 votes
          1. [2]
            Loire
            Link Parent
            Many QAnon fans believe it's literally Trump himself.

            Many QAnon fans believe it's literally Trump himself.

            2 votes
            1. frickindeal
              Link Parent
              I know. It would make more sense that the vast majority of the predictions are nonsense.

              I know. It would make more sense that the vast majority of the predictions are nonsense.

              1 vote
      3. psi
        Link Parent
        Reply All (one of my favorite podcasts) has an episode on it, if podcasts are your thing.

        Reply All (one of my favorite podcasts) has an episode on it, if podcasts are your thing.

        7 votes
      4. [4]
        deing
        Link Parent
        If you want a rather light-hearted overview on that … mess, I can wholeheartedly recommend Some More News' video about it.

        If you want a rather light-hearted overview on that … mess, I can wholeheartedly recommend Some More News' video about it.

        5 votes
        1. [3]
          Micycle_the_Bichael
          Link Parent
          Hey! Another ex-cracked / small beans fan!! Didn't expect to find many of those here!

          Hey! Another ex-cracked / small beans fan!! Didn't expect to find many of those here!

          3 votes
          1. [2]
            KapteinB
            Link Parent
            There are a few of us here. I'm currently excited about Off Hours! Let's hope it turns out as good as After Hours was. Most of all I miss OPCD though.

            There are a few of us here. I'm currently excited about Off Hours! Let's hope it turns out as good as After Hours was.

            Most of all I miss OPCD though.

            2 votes
            1. Micycle_the_Bichael
              Link Parent
              Listen, I love all the people involved in small beans so much. They're all great and hilarious and I support them all. But FUCK to I miss DOB.

              Listen, I love all the people involved in small beans so much. They're all great and hilarious and I support them all. But FUCK to I miss DOB.

    5. ilm9001
      Link Parent
      Damn, i know that notch has tweeted some "edgy" stuff, and i thought it was just the media being lying fucks like always but no.. Minecraft as a game is still good and not run by notch so i have...

      Damn, i know that notch has tweeted some "edgy" stuff, and i thought it was just the media being lying fucks like always but no..
      Minecraft as a game is still good and not run by notch so i have nothing against the game. Actually its one of my favorites atm!

      1 vote
  2. [3]
    Deimos
    Link
    You'd hope that events like this and having his name taken out of the splash-screen messages would cause some serious introspection and trying to figure out if he's actually the one in the wrong,...

    You'd hope that events like this and having his name taken out of the splash-screen messages would cause some serious introspection and trying to figure out if he's actually the one in the wrong, but unfortunately I think it's a lot more likely that he's going to feel persecuted and further entrench his beliefs because of it. There are a lot of places on the internet where I'm sure they'll be treating Notch as the victim, and that'll make it even easier for him to feel justified about it.

    33 votes
    1. clerical_terrors
      Link Parent
      Notch has fairly well entrenched himself within communities which validate and encourage his indiscretions. And those people have only further encouraged him to be lackadaisical about losing face....

      Notch has fairly well entrenched himself within communities which validate and encourage his indiscretions. And those people have only further encouraged him to be lackadaisical about losing face. I think you're right that this probably won't cause him to be introspective, it's not even a real existential problem for him anyways: he still has his money and platform.

      14 votes
    2. Adys
      Link Parent
      I find it hard not to sympathize with the difficulty of reaching introspection. The guy is a self-made billionnaire and has, on a daily basis, tens if not hundreds of thousands of incoming online...

      I find it hard not to sympathize with the difficulty of reaching introspection.

      The guy is a self-made billionnaire and has, on a daily basis, tens if not hundreds of thousands of incoming online interactions.
      Events like these are lost in a sea of noise. It's like sensory overload at some point, isn't it?

      Probably the same reason Musk is a bit of a nutjob (I say that, I really like Musk, but…).

      9 votes
  3. [19]
    deing
    Link
    Good riddance. Usually I have some difficulties separating problematic creators and their work, but for some reason here it's not affected my enjoyment of the game at all — though it might be that...

    Good riddance.

    Usually I have some difficulties separating problematic creators and their work, but for some reason here it's not affected my enjoyment of the game at all — though it might be that I more or less only remember playing when he was already not involved anymore.

    18 votes
    1. [18]
      The_Fad
      Link Parent
      Friendly reminder: If we did not separate creators from their creations there would be many, many, many things that we would not have today both technologically and artistically.

      Friendly reminder: If we did not separate creators from their creations there would be many, many, many things that we would not have today both technologically and artistically.

      7 votes
      1. [17]
        cfabbro
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Sure, but that's dangerously close to "ends justify the means" thinking, and especially while a creator is still alive and receiving money from others supporting their creation, that makes it a...

        Sure, but that's dangerously close to "ends justify the means" thinking, and especially while a creator is still alive and receiving money from others supporting their creation, that makes it a harder to justify ignoring their qualities as people and supporting their products blindly.

        E.g. Orson Scott Card is a massive piece of shit, and I refuse to buy his books because of that, no matter how good they are. And Brendan Eich is similarly an unrepentant homophobe and so I refuse to support Brave browser as well, no matter how much I agree with the general premises behind its design and goals.

        When Orson Scott Card finally kicks the bucket, I will pick up Ender's Game. When Brendan Eich steps down as Brave CEO I will download and use it. But until they do, IMO it's my ethical imperative to ensure I give them no money.

        12 votes
        1. [2]
          vakieh
          Link Parent
          Yarr. That said, Nestle and co do worse than Notch and Orson combined and multiplied by 1,000,000, but the vast majority of people still support them financially (it's crazy hard not to).

          Yarr.

          That said, Nestle and co do worse than Notch and Orson combined and multiplied by 1,000,000, but the vast majority of people still support them financially (it's crazy hard not to).

          8 votes
          1. cfabbro
            Link Parent
            Sure, some bad things are almost impossible to avoid supporting in one way or another... but in those cases it's not entirely on me so much, ethically/karmically speaking, now is it? p.s. Yeah, I...

            Sure, some bad things are almost impossible to avoid supporting in one way or another... but in those cases it's not entirely on me so much, ethically/karmically speaking, now is it?

            p.s. Yeah, I already pirated the shit out of his books... I was just making a point. ;)

            1 vote
        2. [6]
          The_Fad
          Link Parent
          Respectfully disagree. We're talking about situations where a creator's personal views are not apparent in any way in their creation. I would agree if there were racist and homophobic undertones...

          that's dangerously close to "ends justify the means" thinking

          Respectfully disagree. We're talking about situations where a creator's personal views are not apparent in any way in their creation. I would agree if there were racist and homophobic undertones in Minecraft, but as far as I'm aware and can remember, there really arent.

          6 votes
          1. [5]
            cfabbro
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I am talking about situations where the creators personal views are not apparent in their creation. Read the rest of my comment. And as a further example to illustrate my point; would you go to a...

            I am talking about situations where the creators personal views are not apparent in their creation. Read the rest of my comment.

            And as a further example to illustrate my point; would you go to a coffee shop where the owner was a known sexual harasser of their employees, or would you walk a bit further down the street to another one where the owner isn't instead? I would hope the latter, despite the fact the coffee probably tastes the same in both, because the taste of the coffee is not the important part of that ethical equation.

            As I said in the very next part of the sentence directly after your quote, "while a creator is still alive and receiving money from others supporting their creation, that makes it a harder to justify ignoring their qualities as people and supporting their products blindly."

            2 votes
            1. [4]
              The_Fad
              Link Parent
              The examples you provided dont really support your thesis, though. OSC's homophobia might not be in Enders Game but it's still rife with plenty of other mormon propaganda that, from a humanist...

              The examples you provided dont really support your thesis, though. OSC's homophobia might not be in Enders Game but it's still rife with plenty of other mormon propaganda that, from a humanist perspective, is garbage. Eich is a solid example though, given his work doesnt really lend itself to promoting homophobia in any way.

              Also I read your comment in full, I just specifically responded to the portion I chose and felt that your examples were lackluster (as I said, OSC has other problems and Eich is basically a gimme), hence my focus.

              This is the way I see it: To view money and funding as the sole means of "supporting" a creator is to completely ignore the value of art in all its forms, traditional or otherwise. Supporting an artist can be done in hundreds of different ways, just like supporting any human. Hell even by reading OSC's books you're supporting him by allowing his thoughts and contrivances into your mind, which is the bare-bones goal that every writer hopes to achieve: Writers want people to read the things they write. I see no meaningful difference in refusing to give an artist money and refusing to consume their work, and likewise the opposite. So if your goal here is to provide someone like OSC with as little support as possible, but you're still pirating his books and reading them, you're basically walking up to the book store counter and complaining to the clerk about how much of a dickbag OSC is while you buy his book. The end result is the same.

              With regard to your hypothetical, I think it's a little disingenuous of a comparison. But, that being said, I dont consider brewing coffee an art form, though I'm sure there are many who disagree with me. As such I have no qualms wielding the mighty dollar for what I view as ethically right.

              That's all I've got.

              2 votes
              1. [3]
                cfabbro
                Link Parent
                That's a remarkably contrived interpretation of "supporting", IMO. OSC doesn't gain anything from my having pirated his books, similar to how the sexist coffee shop owner gains nothing from me...

                That's a remarkably contrived interpretation of "supporting", IMO. OSC doesn't gain anything from my having pirated his books, similar to how the sexist coffee shop owner gains nothing from me choosing not to buy anything in their establishment. Nor is the result the same. If enough people choose not to support someone's endevours monetarily for their ethical improprieties, they go out of business.

                1. [2]
                  The_Fad
                  Link Parent
                  Well we are talking about art, a notoriously subjective and dare I say contrived topic. Doesnt really seem out of place to me any more than your equating the promotion of homophobia to the actions...

                  Well we are talking about art, a notoriously subjective and dare I say contrived topic. Doesnt really seem out of place to me any more than your equating the promotion of homophobia to the actions of a serial sexual harasser.

                  Thanks for talking with me, though. Different strokes, I suppose.

                  3 votes
                  1. cfabbro
                    Link Parent
                    Indeed. And yeah, thanks for the conversation, too. :)

                    Different strokes, I suppose.

                    Indeed. And yeah, thanks for the conversation, too. :)

        3. TheJorro
          Link Parent
          I don't see why one can't treat the products separately from the creator. Otherwise, we might as well throw Minecraft out with the bathwater here too. This isn't really a matter of "ends justify...

          I don't see why one can't treat the products separately from the creator. Otherwise, we might as well throw Minecraft out with the bathwater here too.

          This isn't really a matter of "ends justify the means", so much as it is "bad people can make good things". Supporting a creator personally because you like their work is the flipside of the same issue as dismissing a work because of the creator: total conflation of artist with their art.

          OSC is a notorious homophobe, but Ender's Game has actively helped LGBT people come to terms with themselves. OSC probably hates that.

          5 votes
        4. [7]
          jgb
          Link Parent
          As I understand it, Eich's opposition to gay marriage is on the basis of a religious belief in marriage being, by definition, a union between a man and a woman. I would appreciate being corrected...

          As I understand it, Eich's opposition to gay marriage is on the basis of a religious belief in marriage being, by definition, a union between a man and a woman. I would appreciate being corrected if I am wrong here but I am under the impression that he supports equal rights for gay couple, with the sole exception of the right to be married. While this is by no means a stance I agree with, I'm not sure if it necessarily implies homophobia to hold such an opinion.

          3 votes
          1. [6]
            cfabbro
            Link Parent
            Oh, he only supported Prop 8 and wants to curtail my rights because of religious reasons? Well then, that makes it totally okay then, and totally not homophobia, aka "prejudice (causing harm with...

            Oh, he only supported Prop 8 and wants to curtail my rights because of religious reasons? Well then, that makes it totally okay then, and totally not homophobia, aka "prejudice (causing harm with an action or judgment) against homosexual people"! /s

            6 votes
            1. [5]
              jgb
              Link Parent
              I don't think Eich is prejudiced though. I don't think he fears or even dislikes gay people. Nor do I believe that he wants to materially advantage straight people over gay people. As I understand...

              I don't think Eich is prejudiced though. I don't think he fears or even dislikes gay people. Nor do I believe that he wants to materially advantage straight people over gay people. As I understand it, he would support same-sex couples enjoying every legal right and responsibility of married hetero couples, with the sole exception of the right to call their partnership a marriage. In this way, his beliefs seem to be almost semantic in nature. I agree that religious dogma should never trump civil liberties, and I want to make it absolutely clear that I do think Eich is in the wrong - but equally, I think it dilutes the term homophobia to apply it in this case, when there's people in this world who will violently attack strangers on the basis of their being gay.

              3 votes
              1. [4]
                kfwyre
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                I agree with you that Eich is far from awful, but the above is giving him a little too much credit, IMO. I heard lots of comments like this at the time, and many of them were disingenuous--a way...

                As I understand it, he would support same-sex couples enjoying every legal right and responsibility of married hetero couples, with the sole exception of the right to call their partnership a marriage.

                I agree with you that Eich is far from awful, but the above is giving him a little too much credit, IMO.

                I heard lots of comments like this at the time, and many of them were disingenuous--a way of offering up appeasement without any real stakes, because the rights of marriage weren't easily separable from the legal definition of marriage. The "just don't call it marriage" proponents could look palatable and fair all while knowing that without the word "marriage" we wouldn't ever come close to parity. "Marriage" as a word became a semantic shield that gave plausible deniability to prejudice. While arguing that it was simply about the definition, they would then pass legislation that inhibited not just terminology, but outcomes.

                Prop 8 was actually the worst of the bunch. Plenty of other marriage amendments of the time were attempting to codify (or had already codified) marriage according to a religious definition. These also happened to cut off same-sex couples from all the legal benefits and protections so many Christians seemed so willing to concede verbally but almost never in practice. Prop 8, however, explicitly revoked the already existing right to legally marry that had been granted to same-sex couples earlier that year. Prop 8 didn't define marriage in the abstract, it reversed something that had already been given.

                Following its passage, many Prop 8 proponents moved to have the marriages enacted during that time nullified. It is one thing to tell someone they can't have something, but it is something else entirely to take it away from them directly.

                Now, I say all this not to vilify Eich, as I genuinely don't believe he's terrible. I also believe that we should not hold people's pasts against them forever, as we all change and deserve to be able to live as who we are now and not as the elephant memory of the internet deems us to be. At this point, a 10-year-old $1000 donation looks quite distant and small in the rear-view mirror.

                But I'm also not going to let Eich off the hook so easily. Even if we assume the best of intentions for him, there's still the issue that he would refuse to acknowledge a distinction between religious and legal marriages. This is a very easy distinction to make--one that people were intentionally obtuse about to the point of absurdity.

                People would fall all over themselves to say that rejecting same-sex marriage wasn't about discrimination but about God's Christian definition for marriage, despite those same people regularly accepting heterosexual marriages of other faiths or no faith at all. Through those cases they showed that they could clearly delineate between legal marriages applied by the state and religious marriages by people who shared their faith, but that they were not willing to extend that further, nor revoke others' rights on this basis.

                Not once did I hear someone who was against same-sex marriage argue for the implementation of exclusively Christian marriage by our government, despite that being the very rhetoric that supported the denial of my rights. Prop 8 didn't remove the rights of all non-Christians to marry--just gays. It was baldly discriminatory. And not only did we have to watch transparently targeted events like that play out all over the nation, we then had to sit through everyone telling us there weren't any targets in the first place.

                "It's not personal; it's religious" was supposed to be a salve, but it's a terrible one because even if it's not personal to them, if certainly is to me.

                I say all of this not because of Eich specifically, but because your comment captures one of the more insidious things I've had to face as I've navigated this world as a gay man: prejudice often wears a benign mask. It can be polite, calm, and civil. It can be principled. Sometimes this is because it comes from a genuinely good person who doesn't necessarily understand the indirect harm they might be causing. Eich might be one of these people.

                But often that mask is worn because it can give discrimination a veneer of respectability. I have met plenty of people like this. They abstract away the hate and euphemize the prejudice so that they can never be called to account for the darker, more damaging beliefs. It's the tactic of bullies.

                Homophobia is not always garden variety threats or overt acts of hate. I faced many of those in my upbringing. They make for compelling, sympathetic stories because they're so visceral and arresting. But the worst part of growing up for me wasn't being threatened, spit on, or being called every variation of "faggot" people could think of--it was living among people who denied me my human dignity. Being called a name stings, but living in an environment that is passively hostile to you is like a being a fish out of water: stunted, still, and slowly choking.

                Homophobia, even the light variety, still has victims. The "just don't call it marriage" crew didn't have to face the people who weren't allowed to see their partners in hospitals. Those who wanted to adopt but couldn't. Those who couldn't file jointly. Those who were denied housing, loans, and benefits. Those who hoped their power of attorney papers would be enough. Those who wanted to have kids but waited for a time when things would be better for them. Those who were parents but were not recognized as such.

                Though these weren't my slights, I still owned them because these were the experiences of people like me, but older--the men and women I was supposed to look up to as examples. They lived with these slights. They were expected. We were surprised when we were treated better than this. That status doesn't come from who we are but because people, like Eich, decided that they had say in how we were to be treated legally. It wasn't just "marriage" as a word. It never was just a word--even for those, like Eich, who might have genuinely believed it was.

                9 votes
                1. [3]
                  jgb
                  Link Parent
                  This is a fantastic comment. I had a feeling I was arguing on unstable footing because I will freely admit I have very little knowledge of the provisions for non-marriage partnerships in...

                  This is a fantastic comment. I had a feeling I was arguing on unstable footing because I will freely admit I have very little knowledge of the provisions for non-marriage partnerships in California or the USA in general. Here in the UK we have Civil Partnerships, which in my understanding are marriages in all-but-name, and that was the basis on which I was working without any understanding to the contrary. Your argument about the tacit acceptance of non-Christian marriage is a very good one, as is your description of the benign facade of some forms of homophobia. I feel like you have given me a deep insight into how gay people, especially Americans, experience the world.

                  4 votes
                  1. [2]
                    kfwyre
                    Link Parent
                    Thank you for your kind words, and no worries on not knowing what it's like across the pond! For as much as I know about the situation in the US, I hardly know about how things work over in your...

                    Thank you for your kind words, and no worries on not knowing what it's like across the pond! For as much as I know about the situation in the US, I hardly know about how things work over in your neck of the woods. Nevertheless, I appreciate you mentioning that, as one of the best parts of this site is that I feel like I get perspectives that aren't dominated by America-centric thinking and assumptions.

                    As such, I have been digging around for a bit to figure out how marriages and partnerships work in the UK, and it's interesting to see how different it is from what I'm used to. As you mentioned, civil partnership is a much more established and full-fledged concept--especially moreso than civil unions ever were in the US. While I'd argue that it's still not the ideal solution, it's definitely closer to parity than what we had here prior to marriage equality. This comparison table is particularly interesting.

                    4 votes
                    1. jgb
                      Link Parent
                      That document makes for interesting reading - interestingly I think it's a little out of date, because these days heterosexual couples can also get civil partnerships (a reasonable win for...

                      That document makes for interesting reading - interestingly I think it's a little out of date, because these days heterosexual couples can also get civil partnerships (a reasonable win for equality in my opinion, even if not a particularly oppression-smashing one).

                      3 votes
  4. [2]
    moocow1452
    Link
    Markus Persson is like the real life version of a Twilight Zone Parable, or a Bojack Horseman who had a hand in creating a massively nostalgic platform, and all of that wealth and influence just...

    Markus Persson is like the real life version of a Twilight Zone Parable, or a Bojack Horseman who had a hand in creating a massively nostalgic platform, and all of that wealth and influence just made him alone and miserable. Maybe it's just something in your head, where if you are that successful, and still feel you don't have enough power and agency over your situation, the only place to go is to conspiracy town.

    15 votes
    1. teaearlgraycold
      Link Parent
      My god this is perfect. "Money Enough at Last".

      Markus Persson is like the real life version of a Twilight Zone Parable

      My god this is perfect. "Money Enough at Last".

      8 votes
  5. hamstergeddon
    Link
    He has my respect for giving us Minecraft and for being a big part of the rise of indie game development in recent years, but I totally support MS's decision here. And let's be honest, he hasn't...

    He has my respect for giving us Minecraft and for being a big part of the rise of indie game development in recent years, but I totally support MS's decision here. And let's be honest, he hasn't had anything to do with the game at all for half of its life and even before the sale he'd mostly handed off all dev work to Jens. The game hasn't been his in years, so nothing of value is lost in him not being a part of its 10 year anniversary, imo.

    15 votes
  6. Elronnd
    Link
    Damn shame about notch, he made some good games. I have a copy of minecraft, never liked it but a lot of people really did. Also his vvvvvv level is really good.

    Damn shame about notch, he made some good games.

    I have a copy of minecraft, never liked it but a lot of people really did.

    Also his vvvvvv level is really good.

    10 votes
  7. [19]
    cwagner
    Link
    wow, creepy links in here. Does anyone know if he always was this crazy or did it happen with his success?

    wow, creepy links in here. Does anyone know if he always was this crazy or did it happen with his success?

    6 votes
    1. [18]
      Eva
      Link Parent
      He used to write tumblr posts that namedropped they/them pronouns positively, so honestly I'm mostly convinced he's currently just seeing how far he can take this current joke.

      He used to write tumblr posts that namedropped they/them pronouns positively, so honestly I'm mostly convinced he's currently just seeing how far he can take this current joke.

      6 votes
      1. [10]
        cfabbro
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        In the end, whether he really is a horrible person or just "trolling" does it really make a difference? Either reason for saying the awful things he says still makes him a total asshole IMO.

        In the end, whether he really is a horrible person or just "trolling" does it really make a difference? Either reason for saying the awful things he says still makes him a total asshole IMO.

        17 votes
        1. [3]
          asoftbird
          Link Parent
          I've said it before and l'll say it again: do something ironically and just for shits and giggles long enough and you end up doing it unironically.

          I've said it before and l'll say it again: do something ironically and just for shits and giggles long enough and you end up doing it unironically.

          15 votes
          1. cfabbro
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Chicken or Egg? IMO people experience cognitive dissonance when they know that a subconscious belief they hold is morally wrong and socially repugnant, so instead of being honest with themselves...

            Chicken or Egg?

            IMO people experience cognitive dissonance when they know that a subconscious belief they hold is morally wrong and socially repugnant, so instead of being honest with themselves regarding that belief they mask the public expression of it behind "just trolling" to make themselves feel better and test the waters. And if what they receive from that public expression is adoration, encouragement and/or agreement, suddenly they realize they no longer have to pretend to themselves or others that they are just trolling anymore and they formally adopt the belief.

            Whereas if what they get in response instead is condemnation, ostracization, and/or having to face real world negative consequences for their words/actions, suddenly they reevaluate that belief... or they double down and become completely isolated as a result. Before the internet I suspect someone choosing isolation for holding a socially unacceptable belief was rare, but unfortunately nowadays when people can still find pockets of support somewhere online, no matter how abhorrent their beliefs are, it's becoming more common.

            6 votes
          2. hamstergeddon
            Link Parent
            Isn't that how /r/The_Donald started? Mostly poking fun at MAGAs and Trump by ironically supporting him, but then before long it was overrun by actual supporters and pro-Trump bots?

            Isn't that how /r/The_Donald started? Mostly poking fun at MAGAs and Trump by ironically supporting him, but then before long it was overrun by actual supporters and pro-Trump bots?

            6 votes
        2. [6]
          Eva
          Link Parent
          Honestly? I'd say it does. His actions haven't been harming anyone, not really—he's just making himself look like a dolt. We all take jokes too far on occasion.

          Honestly? I'd say it does. His actions haven't been harming anyone, not really—he's just making himself look like a dolt. We all take jokes too far on occasion.

          1 vote
          1. dubteedub
            Link Parent
            I would say using a platform of nearly 4 million people on social media to promote hate is actively causing harm. What Notch is doing is far more than just taking a joke too far.

            I would say using a platform of nearly 4 million people on social media to promote hate is actively causing harm.

            What Notch is doing is far more than just taking a joke too far.

            10 votes
          2. [3]
            alyaza
            Link Parent
            i feel like the more likely conclusion to draw from this--rather than notch playing some 14 dimensional, 8 year long game of intergalactic water polo to pull one over on people--is that notch...

            i feel like the more likely conclusion to draw from this--rather than notch playing some 14 dimensional, 8 year long game of intergalactic water polo to pull one over on people--is that notch happens to be one of those people who is economically liberal in general and socially liberal when it comes to sexuality and gender, but socially conservative when it comes to just about anything else. i don't think it's really that unreasonable to think he can like gay people but also be a racist shithead, because there are plenty of people who are further left than he is both economically and socially who buy into the same shit/similar shit (albeit generally for different reasons).

            7 votes
            1. [2]
              dubteedub
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              I am not so sure he is supportive of LGBT issues considering he has also attacked trans women as well. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1jbsbAWkAQc2HS?format=jpg&name=large Other Notch highlights...
              13 votes
              1. skullkid2424
                Link Parent
                I think Notch is a good example of someone who was/is slightly tolerant but also very literal/rational and doubled down on some phrases/concepts out-of-context. Then got lots of pushback from the...

                I think Notch is a good example of someone who was/is slightly tolerant but also very literal/rational and doubled down on some phrases/concepts out-of-context. Then got lots of pushback from the further left who had different context.

                • white supremacist talking points like "It's ok to be white"

                This is a good example of that. On its own, it is ok to be white. Theres nothing wrong with it. But the context is that its usually said to counteract pro-minority sentiments. So people are going to double down on the statement because they stand by it without the context. And theyre going to get lots of backlash from people who have a different context. And usually the "communication" about it isn't really coherent or well though out - everybody is just screaming.

                • Minecraft Creator Tells Women on Twitter ‘Act Like a Cunt, Get Called a Cunt’

                I remember an early instance of Notch using the word Cunt on twitter. He got a lot of flack for it and didn't understand why - and it was because the word has a way different level of "bad word" in the US than it does in Europe and Australia (where it would be more similar to calling someone a bitch). Pretty sure he apologized about the perceived severity of the insult, but not the actual insult. But the statement "Act like a bitch, get called a bitch" - while still gendered language and not great - is probably acceptable to a lot more people.

                And then the more people push back on the statements that weren't terrible in his mind, the more he got pushed into bed with more alt-right trolls who "back up his rational statements". And then twitter does its echochamber thing and you see pizzagate and qanon and other prejudiced views.

                Its a sad story, but one that isn't necessarily uncommon in any way other than he also happens to be tied to minecraft.

                9 votes
          3. The_Fad
            Link Parent
            Depends on how you define "harming anyone", because while no one has any obligation to publicly support or condemn homophobia or racism, they do have a moral and ethical obligation to not further...

            His actions haven't been harming anyone, not really

            Depends on how you define "harming anyone", because while no one has any obligation to publicly support or condemn homophobia or racism, they do have a moral and ethical obligation to not further that ideology, which is what Notch is accomplishing every time he spouts off about stuff like this.

            2 votes
      2. [5]
        Spel
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I wish. Unfortunately his behaviour is all to common, and I know exactly where it comes from. It may seem incomprehensible to outsiders, but it’s a weird side-effect of being a technology-forward...

        I wish. Unfortunately his behaviour is all to common, and I know exactly where it comes from. It may seem incomprehensible to outsiders, but it’s a weird side-effect of being a technology-forward country with a small population that speaks English very well. The outcome is that there are a lot of people fully immersed in American 4chan-esque conspiracy culture but with some progressive (and other not so progressive) quirks as a result of the society of their own country.

        8 votes
        1. firstname
          Link Parent
          Not so sure about everything you just said. But it does make me think that, Notch´s behavior is partly can be blamed on an unhealthy relationship to the internet itself.

          Not so sure about everything you just said. But it does make me think that, Notch´s behavior is partly can be blamed on an unhealthy relationship to the internet itself.

          3 votes
        2. [3]
          Eva
          Link Parent
          I think that's a reductionist and somewhat awful worldview to hold, personally.

          I think that's a reductionist and somewhat awful worldview to hold, personally.

          1. Spel
            Link Parent
            I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re saying.

            I’m afraid I don’t understand what you’re saying.

            2 votes
          2. cfabbro
            Link Parent
            Just FYI, spel means "game" in Swedish and Norwegian... so I assume you're talking to a Scandinavian, which means it's probably not a "worldview" they are expressing, it's likely a...

            Just FYI, spel means "game" in Swedish and Norwegian... so I assume you're talking to a Scandinavian, which means it's probably not a "worldview" they are expressing, it's likely a "speaking-about-my-own-country-from-personal-experience-view". ;)

            1 vote
      3. [2]
        JustABanana
        Link Parent
        Links to the tumblr posts?

        Links to the tumblr posts?

        2 votes
        1. Eva
          Link Parent

          https://notch.tumblr.com/post/28188312756/gender-in-minecraft

          Also, as a fun side fact, it means every character and animal in Minecraft is homosexual because there’s only one gender to choose from. Take THAT, homophobes!

          • I do regret using masculine terms to talk about the default character. These days I try to use the up-and-coming use of “they” as a genderless pronoun.
          8 votes
  8. [14]
    hackergal
    Link
    One of the threads about this on /r/pcgaming just turned into a transphobic circlejerk.

    One of the threads about this on /r/pcgaming just turned into a transphobic circlejerk.

    10 votes
    1. [7]
      Grawlix
      Link Parent
      I went to check because of your comment (morbid curiosity), and immediately regretted it. It was like a mashup of all the worst takes I've seen coming from transphobes. Sometimes the garbage...

      I went to check because of your comment (morbid curiosity), and immediately regretted it. It was like a mashup of all the worst takes I've seen coming from transphobes.

      Sometimes the garbage comments are really just the ones at the bottom of a thread, or contained to toxic subs (not that it's okay that reddit hosts those subs, but that's another issue). That's not at all the case here. It's a sub with over a million readers, and there's bigoted nonsense all the way through the thread, from some of the top comments down.

      Not that there aren't users standing up against bigotry and transphobia, but they're not exactly the overwhelming majority.

      7 votes
      1. [6]
        hackergal
        Link Parent
        Yeah I saw an actual trans person get downvoted for weighing in with their experience. Gamers, what a lovely bunch.

        Yeah I saw an actual trans person get downvoted for weighing in with their experience. Gamers, what a lovely bunch.

        4 votes
        1. [3]
          cfabbro
          Link Parent
          Hey now... not all of us gamers are transphobes, many of us are queer ourselves, staunch allies, and many even transgender themselves. As with most things, it's likely only an incredibly vocal...

          Hey now... not all of us gamers are transphobes, many of us are queer ourselves, staunch allies, and many even transgender themselves. As with most things, it's likely only an incredibly vocal minority who are actually bigots.

          4 votes
          1. [2]
            hackergal
            Link Parent
            I know lmao I'm posting this from my gaming PC. I just see a lot of transphobia whenever the topic comes up in gaming subreddits.

            I know lmao I'm posting this from my gaming PC. I just see a lot of transphobia whenever the topic comes up in gaming subreddits.

            6 votes
            1. cfabbro
              Link Parent
              Fair enough, and that has generally been my experience on reddit especially, but sadly even elsewhere too. Even one of my longtime online friends (who I have been playing games with for years now)...

              I just see a lot of transphobia whenever the topic comes up in gaming subreddits.

              Fair enough, and that has generally been my experience on reddit especially, but sadly even elsewhere too. Even one of my longtime online friends (who I have been playing games with for years now) said something completely out of the blue a few months ago that was rather transphobic and I got in an extended argument with them about it. I'm pretty sure I got through to them since they haven't brought it up since, but who knows... :(

              1 vote
        2. Adys
          Link Parent
          Saying stuff like that is no better. I work in the gaming industry, I've seen worse shit than you can imagine. I still don't generalize.

          Gamers, what a lovely bunch.

          Saying stuff like that is no better. I work in the gaming industry, I've seen worse shit than you can imagine. I still don't generalize.

          3 votes
        3. Grawlix
          Link Parent
          I usually don't see that kind of hate outside of, you know, explicit hate subs. And of course there's a big dose of "just for having an opinion" from people who don't understand the paradox of...

          I usually don't see that kind of hate outside of, you know, explicit hate subs. And of course there's a big dose of "just for having an opinion" from people who don't understand the paradox of tolerance.

          2 votes
    2. [6]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      when do threads like that not on reddit in general, much less the gaming subreddits? i feel like it's a given that this happens once a thread reaches a sufficient threshold of votes that it hits...

      when do threads like that not on reddit in general, much less the gaming subreddits? i feel like it's a given that this happens once a thread reaches a sufficient threshold of votes that it hits rising or /r/all on really any topic that can be construed as pertaining to trans people in any way.

      5 votes
      1. [5]
        hackergal
        Link Parent
        Yeah pretty much. Reddit users claim to love logic and reason but if you link to any of the studies showing trans people are valid it's pretty much "naw trans people are mentally ill and need...

        Yeah pretty much. Reddit users claim to love logic and reason but if you link to any of the studies showing trans people are valid it's pretty much "naw trans people are mentally ill and need conversion therapy."

        7 votes
        1. [4]
          Grawlix
          Link Parent
          It's hilariously ignorant that they act like they know better than the trans people themselves or the experts who help them transition. They never stop to think that transitioning isn't some quick...

          It's hilariously ignorant that they act like they know better than the trans people themselves or the experts who help them transition. They never stop to think that transitioning isn't some quick and easy process that's taken lightly by anyone involved, and that maybe those people did consider not transitioning.

          7 votes
          1. [3]
            hackergal
            Link Parent
            I sure as fuck considered not transitioning. I only realized I was a bit over seven months ago. At first, I didn't want to transition. I knew it would be awkward coming out to everyone and make at...

            I sure as fuck considered not transitioning. I only realized I was a bit over seven months ago. At first, I didn't want to transition. I knew it would be awkward coming out to everyone and make at least the next few years very difficult. But then I read that most trans people regret not starting earlier, and very few regret transitioning at all. So I was basically like "20 isn't a bad age to transition and I'm not getting any younger. Shit, these next two years are gonna be awkward as fuck. Might as well get this over with."

            3 votes
            1. [2]
              Thrabalen
              Link Parent
              As someone who's 45 and broke as hell, I envy the younger generation of transgender people. I knew what I was at 17, but back then, it was all about talking you out of even considering...

              As someone who's 45 and broke as hell, I envy the younger generation of transgender people. I knew what I was at 17, but back then, it was all about talking you out of even considering transitioning, and throwing up roadblocks.

              2 votes
              1. hackergal
                Link Parent
                Yeah I got lucky enough to live somewhere with informed consent so I was on HRT like a month after realizing I was trans (more like a month after I stopped denying it). Most of my family and a lot...

                Yeah I got lucky enough to live somewhere with informed consent so I was on HRT like a month after realizing I was trans (more like a month after I stopped denying it). Most of my family and a lot of my friends would be trying to throw up roadblocks if they could tho. But being a legal adult they can't stop me; and I came out to them as a fait accompli.