12 votes

France mandates masks to control the coronavirus, but burqas remain banned

11 comments

  1. [9]
    Grzmot
    Link
    Wherever you agree with the ban on burqas or not, I don't think they work very well when it comes to stopping COVID19. One is a religious matter, the other a health matter. The issues don't seem...

    Wherever you agree with the ban on burqas or not, I don't think they work very well when it comes to stopping COVID19. One is a religious matter, the other a health matter.

    “If you are Muslim and you hide your face for religious reasons, you are liable to a fine and a citizenship course where you will be taught what it is to be ‘a good citizen,’ ” said Fatima Khemilat, a fellow at the Political Science Institute of Aix-en-Provence. “But if you are a non-Muslim citizen in the pandemic, you are encouraged and forced as a ‘good citizen’ to adopt ‘barrier gestures’ to protect the national community.”

    The issues don't seem that related to me, apart from the fact that both things happen to cover your face. No one expects that we'll have to wear surgical masks forever, but burqas are not something that's going to go away quickly, as is any religious matter.

    12 votes
    1. [5]
      Death
      Link Parent
      Your point is valid but it talks past the core issue of the article. The purpose of which isn't to determine the legitimacy of burqas as anti-pandemic measures or whether they are equivalent to...
      • Exemplary

      Your point is valid but it talks past the core issue of the article. The purpose of which isn't to determine the legitimacy of burqas as anti-pandemic measures or whether they are equivalent to the mandates face masks. This is briefly mentioned as an argument, but only to illustrate the point. The question is one of a broader context in which the face-mask mandate is passed, and the article goes out of it's way to paint the bigger picture on this:

      “In free and democratic societies . . . no exchange between people, no social life is possible, in public space, without reciprocity of look and visibility: people meet and establish relationships with their faces uncovered,” declared a parliamentary study prepared during debate of the 2010 law, which took effect the following year.

      “The concealment of the face in public space has the effect of breaking social ties,” the report continues. “It manifests the refusal of ‘living together.’ ”
      [...]
      Following the October 2019 attack on the Paris police headquarters by an Islamist employee, French Interior Minister Christophe Castaner delivered a controversial list of potential signs of radicalization to the French Parliament. Not doing “la bise,” the kiss on the cheek that many French and Europeans use to greet each other, was on his list.

      So the situation we have is that some of the pandemic measures seem to fly in the face of the (sometimes rather absolutist) positions the French government took in arguing for bans on face coverings. Even at the time of their passing most people understood the arguments being brought forward were mostly pretenses, but proponents insisted the reasons being given were valid and no exceptions could be made. The current situation has dredged the memories of that time back up again, and so people are speaking out against it.

      Like with many other positions governments around the world have upheld as immutable and non-negotiable (limiting government spending, no further protections for renters) the script appears to have flipped entirely in order to deal with the crisis, lending further credence to the idea that the stated reasons were never anything but empty rhetoric so as to not say the quiet part out loud.

      On the whole the issue in the article is small, and somewhat of a dead end, it doesn't have an easy resolution such as "repealing the face burqa ban", but it's illustrative of a larger pattern of social issues and institutional blundering which, in time, feeds into issues of discrimination, alienation, and radicalization.

      8 votes
      1. [4]
        Grzmot
        Link Parent
        Hm, you are right, but I'd say that the issue of the pandemic invalidates quite a lot of other issues and positions governments around the world had, because the pandemic on it's own is a very big...

        Hm, you are right, but I'd say that the issue of the pandemic invalidates quite a lot of other issues and positions governments around the world had, because the pandemic on it's own is a very big issue that alters the perspective on other problems.

        The changes implemented by the countries around the world all have that big asterisk at the end that says until the pandemic ends.

        2 votes
        1. [3]
          Death
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Again, your point is fair in a vacuum, but the French state did not qualify it's communication of the face-mask mandate in a way which would show that it considers it to be a deep and regrettable...

          Again, your point is fair in a vacuum, but the French state did not qualify it's communication of the face-mask mandate in a way which would show that it considers it to be a deep and regrettable contradiction of it's own positions. Not that this would have stopped feelings of those positions having been empty rhetoric but at least it would have shown consistency. And inconsistency tends to heavily undermine more absolute positions, and with it the government's credibility.

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            Grzmot
            Link Parent
            I agree with you, but how would you have communicated it better? "We're sorry that we have to do this because it goes against making public interaction smooth, but it has to be done because of the...

            Again, your point is fair in a vacuum, but the French state did not qualify it's communication of the face-mask mandate in a way which would show that it considers it to be a deep and regrettable contradiction of it's own positions.

            I agree with you, but how would you have communicated it better? "We're sorry that we have to do this because it goes against making public interaction smooth, but it has to be done because of the health of our citizens." is the message this gets across at least to me. But I don't live in France, and I don't know exactly how they have been addressing the crisis.

            2 votes
            1. Death
              Link Parent
              Pretty much exactly that, yes. Mention how it goes against previous directives and positions, but that it's an absolute necessity and more dangerous not to break the previous rules. I've only had...

              Pretty much exactly that, yes. Mention how it goes against previous directives and positions, but that it's an absolute necessity and more dangerous not to break the previous rules.

              I've only had second-hand accounts and a few news stories, but it looks like the government didn't elaborate much at all and simply issued the mandate. I'm inclined to believe this because, it's not unusual for the French government's directives to appear aloof, but security, the burqa ban, and the absolute requirement for citizens to be uncovered and identifiable at all times have been political hot buttons ever since the Bataclan attacks, they could have at least addressed it.

              1 vote
    2. [3]
      DanBC
      Link Parent
      There's not much evidence that home made cloth masks do anything to prevent covid-19, so let's not pretend that face masks are the result of purely rational science while burkas are irrational...

      There's not much evidence that home made cloth masks do anything to prevent covid-19, so let's not pretend that face masks are the result of purely rational science while burkas are irrational religiousity.

      5 votes
      1. Autoxidation
        Link Parent
        There is certainly some evidence out there that wearing a cloth mask is better than nothing, and there are some types of cloth that can be used that test well.

        There is certainly some evidence out there that wearing a cloth mask is better than nothing, and there are some types of cloth that can be used that test well.

        3 votes
      2. Grzmot
        Link Parent
        Yes but in a global shortage of clinical face masks they're the best that people can do.

        Yes but in a global shortage of clinical face masks they're the best that people can do.

        2 votes
  2. [2]
    Kuromantis
    (edited )
    Link
    The wiki article on Laïcité and the difference between French Revolution secularism and American/other types of seculaism might be some decent context to this. I'll quote this bit from the article...

    The wiki article on Laïcité and the difference between French Revolution secularism and American/other types of seculaism might be some decent context to this. I'll quote this bit from the article in particular:

    A debate took place over whether any religious apparel or displays by individuals, such as the Islamic hijab, Sikh turban, (large) Christian crosses, and Jewish Stars of David and kippah, should be banned from public schools. Such a ban came into effect in France in 2004; see French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools. In the spring of 2011 there was a reinforcement of laïcité in hospitals, advocated by the Minister of the Interior, Claude Guéant, and in public service generally, by the official non-discrimination agency, la HALDE. The simultaneous broadcasting of the traditional Protestant and Catholic Lent sermons (operating since 1946) has been interrupted. Earlier the broadcasting of the Russian Orthodox Christmas night liturgy was similarly stopped on 6/7 January.

    In French secularism religion is viewed as a freedom from from rather than to, which is more analogous to Marxism's (opium of the masses) take on religion than the First Amendment's Establishment clause, which supports religious freedom to practice any faith you please, so long you don't make others do the same. This also seems like a decent counter to suspicions of islamophobia.

    5 votes
    1. vord
      Link Parent
      And I (as an American atheist) largely agree with the French secularism, and that is generally held up by American courts as well....Religion has no place in government. There shouldn't be any...

      And I (as an American atheist) largely agree with the French secularism, and that is generally held up by American courts as well....Religion has no place in government.

      There shouldn't be any concept of a 'religious exemption.' You can be free to practice any religion you want, but you shouldn't be able to get special exemptions from laws that apply to everyone else because of it.

      3 votes