13 votes

Weekly coronavirus-related chat, questions, and minor updates - week of August 10

This thread is posted weekly, and is intended as a place for more-casual discussion of the coronavirus and questions/updates that may not warrant their own dedicated topics. Tell us about what the situation is like where you live!

24 comments

  1. kfwyre
    Link
    My usual personal update: It is official -- I will be starting this school year remotely. Deep inside, I really want to celebrate this, and privately, I am. I feel personally relieved. I haven't...

    My usual personal update:

    It is official -- I will be starting this school year remotely.

    Deep inside, I really want to celebrate this, and privately, I am. I feel personally relieved. I haven't been sleeping well in weeks and anxiety about going back to work was eating me up. I can rest easier now.

    I can't exactly be happy though, as nearly every parent I know is devastated. They understand the risks but more than anything else they need relief. They're tired, beleaguered, and facing an impossible situation: managing their own jobs and remote learning for their kids at the same time. A coworker called me in tears yesterday. She has two little children, one entering school for the first time this coming year. That child simply won't be able to sit quietly for hours in front of a screen while her mom's away doing her job. But her mom also can't afford to not work, nor pay someone else to help her kids. Make no doubt about it, this country's response to COVID-19 has directly failed parents, leaving them out to dry, offering them no support, and prolonging their difficult situations.

    As I expected, the decision to reopen remotely was made less because of safety and more because they couldn't figure out the logistics of reopening with all the restrictions. In some ways, the things I've complained about here with regards to a lack of school funding helped effect this, because our district didn't do a lot beyond the bare minimum with their funding, so while they moved some furniture around and bought some hand sanitizer, literally nothing was done regarding ventilation or restructuring school environments. I think we got the right outcome for the wrong reasons, but I'm not about to complain about that. A right call is a right call regardless.

    With regards to the response from the community, things immediately got ugly. I should have expected this given the tenor of everything in America of late, but I was honestly surprised. I'm not on Facebook, but based on what has been shared with me from friends and colleagues, it is an outright warzone right now. Local news organizations have shut down comments on articles, and several prominent educational stakeholders have received direct threats, both legal and personal. It's one thing to know those kinds of people are out there, but another entirely to see them in your own community.

    I've known for a long time that this school year was going to be awful. For me, it was simply a question of will it be awful, or will it be awful AND I'll get to deal with daily exposure to COVID? I'm happy I can say no to the latter, but now that has put the "awful" part into sharp focus: I simply do not love remote teaching. I think I've got a lot of upcoming work to do in order to best figure out how to make the best of this setting.

    Ultimately though, I come back to the idea that anything other than health and safety for myself and my students is just noise. Our lives are priority 1. They are the top concern. Nothing supersedes them. And a remote reopening is the only way to ensure that we're safe right now. So, privately, I'm joyous -- not just for myself, but for all the people that such a decision is protecting.

    12 votes
  2. [4]
    Omnicrola
    Link
    Over the weekend I was listening to a RadioLab episode that was talking about the observations some doctors have made that seem to indicate a correlation between vitamin D deficiency and COVID19...

    Over the weekend I was listening to a RadioLab episode that was talking about the observations some doctors have made that seem to indicate a correlation between vitamin D deficiency and COVID19 severity.

    Then this morning I see that someone posted a paper studying that exact thing on reddit.

    It's far from conclusive, the sample size is only 42 people. But hey, any good news is welcome at this point. At this point I'm just using it as further motivation to go outside and get some exercise (and sunlight).

    7 votes
    1. Autoxidation
      Link Parent
      There are definitely reports hypothesizing similar correlations from a while ago, like this one: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200507121353.htm I do wonder if this is just a...

      There are definitely reports hypothesizing similar correlations from a while ago, like this one:
      https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/05/200507121353.htm

      I do wonder if this is just a correlation with generally more unhealthy people having less sun exposure outside/being less active and a more severe vitamin D deficiency. Further research adding to the pile is always good.

      8 votes
    2. aethicglass
      Link Parent
      MedCram has done a few episodes on vitamin D, most recently this one. The tl;dr is that vitamin D is a bit of a heavy lifter when it comes to immune response and in helping to regulate vasculature...

      MedCram has done a few episodes on vitamin D, most recently this one. The tl;dr is that vitamin D is a bit of a heavy lifter when it comes to immune response and in helping to regulate vasculature and endothelial health. But if you haven't watched any of the MedCram updates on COVID before, I highly recommend it. They recently hit episode 100 (which is a decent starting place as it's a bit of a recap episode). It's hands-down the single best source of information I've come across on new studies and potential treatments. He's a frontline ICU respiratory specialist in Riverside, CA, and the fact that he's taken the time to put out a hundred episodes so far this year that go in depth on new studies on COVID despite working full time at the ICU is absolutely mindblowing to me.

      To top it all off, the information he talks about there is weeks, if not months, ahead of the news cycles. He was talking about vitamin D back in April, possibly earlier. Around the same time, he started hypothesizing about the strange effects being seen in COVID patients, and how these effects differed from typical respiratory infections. In late April, he published this video expanding upon the hypothesis that COVID attacks the endothelium of the lung vasculature and causes runaway oxidative stress that eventually leads to thrombosis in the lungs' microvasculature, explaining the strange results of tests that look at oxygen diffusion issues and the cases of "happy hypoxics". The first news story I remember seeing about this wasn't until the beginning of July.

      Sorry my tldr turned out a bit long. I highly recommend the channel. I wish I could get more people to watch it. Come to think of it, I should probably make another top level comment about another recent episode regarding paper testing because that's an absolute game changer.

      6 votes
    3. hhh
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Like @Autoxidation said, until a causative link is established, I'd be hesitant to put any hopes in Vitamin D improving outcomes/preventing Coronavirus. IMO, it's more likely that populations low...

      Like @Autoxidation said, until a causative link is established, I'd be hesitant to put any hopes in Vitamin D improving outcomes/preventing Coronavirus. IMO, it's more likely that populations low in Vitamin D may also be less healthy and thus more susceptible to COVID. For example, people who stay inside and don't exercise. Or black people, who, most likely due to socioeconomic factors suffer higher rates of diabetes/heart disease.

      Edit: well, looks like that hesitation was unwarranted. vitamin d for everyone!

      6 votes
  3. skybrian
    Link
    California’s public health director resigns in wake of coronavirus data errors

    California’s public health director resigns in wake of coronavirus data errors

    Last week, state officials confirmed that as many as 300,000 records had not been processed by the computer clearinghouse system relied upon to provide to local officials the COVID-19 test results reported by labs on a daily basis. Two separate errors were identified — one related to a computer server outage, the other to the expiration of an electronic certificate for data to be transferred from Quest Diagnostics laboratories.

    On Monday, the governor said the backlog of computer records had been cleared over the weekend.

    Administration officials insisted they did not know the extent of the problem until after Newsom’s public event on Aug. 3 in which he expressed optimism that current case numbers — lower than some had expected — meant some progress in the state’s efforts. But some local officials were sent communications the week before from the state Department of Public Health acknowledging a problem with the CalREDIE computer system.

    7 votes
  4. Deimos
    Link
    New Zealand has had a new cluster of cases show up after going over 100 days without any local transmission, and they don't seem to have any idea where it came from at this point. They're...

    New Zealand has had a new cluster of cases show up after going over 100 days without any local transmission, and they don't seem to have any idea where it came from at this point. They're investigating the possibility that it may have even come in on the packaging of frozen food, though overall they don't seem to think that's likely.

    7 votes
  5. [3]
    aethicglass
    Link
    Not sure if it has been talked about at all here on tildes, but This Week in Virology did an interview with a Harvard doctor named Michael Mina about the possibility of cheap daily tests and how...

    Not sure if it has been talked about at all here on tildes, but This Week in Virology did an interview with a Harvard doctor named Michael Mina about the possibility of cheap daily tests and how such a thing could be the most effective means of combating the spread, pre-vaccine.

    The interview itself is the first hour or so. MedCram (an amazing resource for learning about COVID, see my other post here if you haven't yet) did a 20 minute recap on the interview and offers some clarification on the technical details of Ct values and transmission thresholds.

    Coronavirus Pandemic Update 98: At Home COVID-19 Testing - A Possible Breakthrough

    A few days ago, MedCram themselves interviewed Michael Mina about these paper tests, talking about what needs to happen for these to be approved, how they could potentially change the lockdown landscape, and going over some of the more technical details. Again, it's about an hour long. They made a 5 minute summary video of the interview that goes over the highlights, but it appears youtube flagged it for some reason.

    So I'll offer my own take on it. Take it with a grain of salt if you wish, but if nothing else go watch MedCram ep.98 at the very least if you'd like to know more.

    My take on it is basically: This is how to reopen. Not with fuzzy guidelines and fingers crossed, hoping for the best out of desperation. But with billions of cheap tests made available so that people can test themselves at home, at work, at school, however frequently is needed. It doesn't require blood, it doesn't require skewering your brain with a swab, and doesn't require equipment or machinery. Somewhat similar to a pregnancy test, you'd have to spit in a vial and drop a piece of paper in.

    In a perfect work, everybody could be testing themselves once or twice a week. But with the current political landscape, we would still have people who refuse to do it. But even taking that into account, this could drop the R-effective in a major way. There would likely still be outbreaks because people are idiots, yes, but this would enable sectors across the board to reopen with a level of assurance of safety that is currently completely absent.

    I already wrote to Mayor Garcetti here in LA about it, and it seems I'm not the only one. The only thing that will get the ball rolling on this is the political will. But this is exciting news. I would love to be able to take a test, have a few friends do the same, and be able to tell each other we can hang out for the first time in ages. Or to be able to see my dad without worrying about the possibility that I could potentially be an asymptomatic carrier. We're still a minimum of six months out from a vaccine, assuming moderna or chadox pass phase 3, and even then rollout will be slow. We need something in the meantime in we have any hope of regaining a foothold of normalcy.

    6 votes
    1. [2]
      clem
      Link Parent
      I read an article about Michael Mina (possibly something you posted?) and this suggestion of cheap at-home coronavirus self-testing and have been so hopeful about it since then. If those of us who...

      I read an article about Michael Mina (possibly something you posted?) and this suggestion of cheap at-home coronavirus self-testing and have been so hopeful about it since then. If those of us who actually cared/believed in it could take a test every day, we could get pretty close to back to something normal. I would even feel comfortable playing hockey again, especially if the rink required everyone to take a test before playing. The virus could pretty much be isolated to idiots and to people who interact with idiots, and it seems to me that this would cut it down to almost nothing.

      Sorry for a comment that's little more than just gushing and echoing what you already said, but I can't help myself. I'm excited about this idea.

      3 votes
      1. aethicglass
        Link Parent
        Yea, Michael Mina did an OpEd in the NY Times a little over a month ago, I believe. I wasn't the one who posted it here, but I believe that article kinda got the ball rolling on the idea. Well, I...

        Yea, Michael Mina did an OpEd in the NY Times a little over a month ago, I believe. I wasn't the one who posted it here, but I believe that article kinda got the ball rolling on the idea. Well, I guess the preprint itself is really what got things started, but it seems like the guy has really been devoting himself to spreading the word about it.

        And I couldn't be happier to hear someone else enthusiastic about this!

        This is what I wrote to the mayor here in LA... (it's a little more ass-kissy than I would normally be inclined to do, but something something flies and sugar)

        I recently learned of the potential viability of low cost rapid PCR testing. I'd like to preface this before going further by commending your efforts alongside those of the governor. I have been regularly reassured of the competence of our local government in the face of utterly bewildering actions from those leading nationally. And I think you, Mr. Garcetti, may be positioned uniquely to drive progress forward on this front.
        Low cost, rapid result paper tests open the door on the possibility of reining in the infection rates in a way that nothing else shy of a vaccine will be able to. The aversion to these cheap tests until now has been "lack of sensitivity." However, it is becoming apparent that infection potential exists mainly above a certain threshold of viral load. And these cheap tests are sensitive enough to pick up on infection in individuals above that threshold of viral load. Meaning if they're infectious, the test will be able to find the virus. And these tests are cheap and easy enough to use at home on a weekly or even daily basis. This has potential to be an absolute game changer. People being able to test themselves regularly would open the door on reopening so many sectors while still being able to maintain a degree of caution that we've not been able to exercise until this point.
        I come to you with this because it is apparent that the federal government has little interest in pursuing this avenue of testing, or of even helping to make RT-PCR testing more readily available. The actual leadership during this crisis has come from local leaders such as yourself. While there are many locations on the rise with outbreaks lately, the local leaders in those areas seem unlikely to recognize the importance or potential value of this type of testing. Many seem to be more inclined to hide the statistics than to learn from them. But you were at the forefront to make RT-PCR testing available to the public as quickly as possible and is no small quantity. Even though our numbers here in L.A. have been steadily increasing the entire time, we have indeed managed to flatten the curve, and I believe that your actions played no small part in that. But it's our current high numbers that also give more weight to your position to be able to influence those necessary to encourage the FDA approval and availability of these paper tests. They need to be implemented in high-infection areas to be able to illustrate to others that as a system, it can work. And when I look around at all the other hotspots right now, I can't think of anywhere else that would be better suited to lead the way forward than us here.

        I don't imagine it was actually read by the mayor. Best I can hope for is that the general message was passed along. But I kinda doubt even that. So as to not waste a bit of perfectly good letter, I figured maybe someone here might get some use out of it.

        4 votes
  6. Omnicrola
    Link
    Skepticism Greets Putin's Announcement Of Russian Coronavirus Vaccine Oooof. This is going to eat a few news cycles. Totally makes sense that someone like Putin would do this. I will be 0% shocked...

    Skepticism Greets Putin's Announcement Of Russian Coronavirus Vaccine

    Oooof. This is going to eat a few news cycles. Totally makes sense that someone like Putin would do this. I will be 0% shocked if Trump doesn't try to do the same thing. Especially if the Russian vaccine doesn't have any immediate and obvious drawbacks. Although I don't think Trump can actually force the FDA to do this, he would absolutely use this as more proof of Deep State conspiracies to point and say "look I'm trying to get everyone a vaccine, but they won't let me".

    Some choice quotes:

    The announcement of the new vaccine, dubbed Sputnik-V, has been met with initial skepticism, as it has yet to complete Phase III trials in which large numbers of people are given doses to determine if is safe and effective in a general population.

    ...

    Putin said it would be available to the general public on Jan. 1, 2021.

    ...

    The researchers said fewer than 100 people had been tested — and that the early registration of the vaccine could expose end consumers to unnecessary danger.

    "This is a Pandora's Box and we don't know what will happen to people injected with an unproven vaccine," ACTO Executive Director Svetlana Zavidova said in a letter to Russian Health Minister Mikhail Murashko on Monday.

    6 votes
  7. skybrian
    Link
    FDA clears saliva test for Covid-19, opening door to wider testing

    FDA clears saliva test for Covid-19, opening door to wider testing

    The new test, which is called SalivaDirect and was developed by researchers at the Yale School of Public Health, allows saliva samples to be collected in any sterile container. It is a much less invasive process than the nasal swabs currently used to test for the virus that causes Covid-19, but one that has so far yielded highly sensitive and similar results. The test, which also avoids a key step that has caused shortages of chemical reagents used in other tests, can test approximately 90 samples in fewer than three hours in a lab.

    Moreover, Yale intends to provide its “open source” testing protocol to laboratories around the country. Other labs can now adopt the method while using a variety of commercially available testing components that can reduce costs, speed turnaround times and increase testing frequency, according to the FDA. And because the reagents for the test cost less than $5, the Yale researchers estimated labs should charge about $10 per sample, although that remains to be seen.

    6 votes
  8. pvik
    (edited )
    Link
    Thousands of Bikers gather for a Motorcycle rally in Sturgis, South Dakota that is expected to last from Aug 7-16. Expected to become a super-spreader event. Harleys Everywhere, Masks Nowhere:...
    5 votes
  9. [2]
    Deimos
    Link
    In last week's thread, we were talking about North Paulding High School in Georgia. They're now switching to a hybrid model, because they have at least 35 confirmed cases. Woodstock High School,...
    5 votes
    1. kfwyre
      Link Parent
      Absolutely infuriating. I'm not sure what the testing delay is like there now, but two weeks ago the range was a four to fourteen day turnaround, and I can't imagine it's gotten significantly...

      Absolutely infuriating.

      I'm not sure what the testing delay is like there now, but two weeks ago the range was a four to fourteen day turnaround, and I can't imagine it's gotten significantly better since then. The confirmations we have now are likely lagging actual infections by days, if not weeks. This is unfortunately going to get much, much worse.

      3 votes
  10. [2]
    spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    Coronavirus cuts off a Washington border town from two countries How Point Roberts, an exclave of the US, has been affected by the Canadian border closure.

    Coronavirus cuts off a Washington border town from two countries

    How Point Roberts, an exclave of the US, has been affected by the Canadian border closure.

    Residents of Point Roberts can cross the border only to work, pick up prescriptions or go to a doctor’s appointment in the mainland U.S., and they’re not allowed to stop in Canada at all during the trip. The only other way to reach the mainland is by private boat, or the twice-weekly $135 flight to Bellingham.

    4 votes
    1. Saigot
      Link Parent
      There's been a lot of complaining about this in the Canadian media. There are many allegations that Americans are using this and agreements around Alaska to flirt the travel ban.

      There's been a lot of complaining about this in the Canadian media. There are many allegations that Americans are using this and agreements around Alaska to flirt the travel ban.

      4 votes
  11. skybrian
    Link
    Don’t just look at covid-19 fatality rates. Look at people who survive — but don’t entirely recover.

    Don’t just look at covid-19 fatality rates. Look at people who survive — but don’t entirely recover.

    Now, data is coming in behind the anecdotes, and while it’s preliminary, it’s also “concerning,” says Clyde Yancy, chief of cardiology at Northwestern University’s Feinberg School of Medicine. A recent study from Germany followed up with 100 recovered patients, two-thirds of whom were never sick enough to be hospitalized. Seventy-eight showed signs of cardiac involvement, and MRIs indicated that 60 of them had ongoing cardiac inflammation, even though it had been at least two months since their diagnosis.

    If these results turned out to be representative, they would utterly change the way we think about covid-19: not as a disease that kills a tiny percentage of patients, mostly the elderly or the obese, the hypertensive or diabetic, but one that attacks the heart in most of the people who get it, even if they don’t feel very sick. And maybe their lungs, kidneys or brains, too.

    It’s too early to say what the long-term prognosis of those attacks would be; with other viruses that infect the heart, most acute, symptomatic myocarditis cases eventually resolve without long-term clinical complications. Though Leslie Cooper, a cardiologist at the Mayo Clinic, estimates that 20 to 30 percent of patients who experience acute viral myocarditis end up with some sort of long-term heart disease including recurrent chest pain or shortness of breath, which can be progressive and debilitating. When I asked whether the risk of long-term disability from covid-19 could potentially end up being greater than the risk of death, Cooper said: “Yes, absolutely.”

    4 votes
  12. [3]
    skybrian
    (edited )
    Link
    At sunny Saint-Tropez, the party crowd brings champagne — and the coronavirus [...]

    At sunny Saint-Tropez, the party crowd brings champagne — and the coronavirus

    [...] this summer, with the European Union banning travelers from the United States and Russia — two of Saint-Tropez’s top visitor homelands — the crowds have been heavy with middle-class French, who forsook their traditional vacations in less-costly locales such as Spain or Greece and opted for a summer road trip to France’s southern coast. Once E.U. borders reopened in mid-June, Danes, Germans and the Dutch joined the caravan, many in RVs. And when they arrived, after three months of sheltering in place, they wanted to kick back and forget about the virus.

    [...]

    As the summer progressed, some restaurants and beach clubs loosened up on the rules. Live music during dinner service brought mask-free dancing, which management shrugged off. With nightclubs such as the VIP Room and Les Caves du Roy padlocked for the season, some beach clubs became daytime discothèques, with waitstaff wearing masks on their chins — or not at all. In late July, Nikki Beach came under fire after videos circulated on social media of hundreds of unmasked partyers cavorting to music by French DJ Kungs.

    Then came the outbreak. And the closures. And the new mask regulations, which the Var-Matin charmingly dubbed the “Bal Masqué,” or masquerade ball. On Saturday, the paper reported two more fashionable restaurants in town — the Salama and the Gaïo — had closed shop, and Siri, the deputy mayor, said the sub-prefect “envisions other closures as a preventive measure if health measures are not more effectively put in place.”

    3 votes
    1. [2]
      viridian
      Link Parent
      It's paywalled and forces a redirect to the front page, then to a subscription prompt.

      It's paywalled and forces a redirect to the front page, then to a subscription prompt.

      1. skybrian
        Link Parent
        I added quotes with the gist.

        I added quotes with the gist.

        1 vote
  13. spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    Boston Globe: Your child’s a no-show at virtual school? You may get a call from the state’s foster care agency (paywalled for me, but using an incognito window got around it)

    Boston Globe: Your child’s a no-show at virtual school? You may get a call from the state’s foster care agency

    (paywalled for me, but using an incognito window got around it)

    Massachusetts school officials have reported dozens of families to state social workers for possible neglect charges because of issues related to their children’s participation in remote learning classes during the pandemic shutdown in the spring, according to interviews with parents, advocates, and reviews of documents.

    In most cases, lawyers and family advocates said, the referrals were made solely because students failed to log into class repeatedly. Most of the parents reported were mothers, and several did not have any previous involvement with social services.

    The trend was most common in high-poverty, predominantly Black and Latino school districts in Worcester, Springfield, Haverhill, and Lynn; advocates and lawyers reported few, if any, cases from wealthier communities.

    Yet lawyers including Gregory said the aggressive approach was particularly inappropriate during a pandemic when families of all backgrounds frequently struggled to help their children engage in remote learning. During the spring, only 36 percent of parents who were surveyed statewide said their children participated in daily online classes.

    Rather than “building bridges and building relationships” with the most vulnerable families, some schools defaulted to “punitive measures,” Gregory said. “There were so many kids with disabilities, language barriers ... who were having trouble engaging in remote learning. You shouldn’t infer anything about a parent, simply because a child’s not showing up on Zoom.”

    3 votes
  14. spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    NYT: Rapid Testing Is the New Velvet Rope Another example of how the pandemic magnifies pre-existing problems in society such as vast income & wealth inequality.

    NYT: Rapid Testing Is the New Velvet Rope

    Dr. Rashid is there to administer rapid or real-time tests for coronavirus. She performs the procedure — either a finger prick or a nose swab — in the car, and then lets guests into the house only if their tests come back negative. The entire procedure takes less than 30 minutes. Consider it a pandemic pregame.

    Suffolk County still lacks rapid testing infrastructure, and the private service is expensive: up to $500 per test, and not all insurance companies will cover the cost. Most doctors don’t even have kits to do the tests; patients willing to pay can wait up to a week for an appointment at the offices that have them in New York City.

    Another example of how the pandemic magnifies pre-existing problems in society such as vast income & wealth inequality.

    A busy day came after a drive-in “Safe & Sound” concert, where the chief executive of Goldman Sachs performed, at the end of July. Concertgoers, who paid $1,250 per car to attend, were supposed to stay in their cars, but social media showed crowds dancing by the stage.

    2 votes
  15. Kuromantis
    (edited )
    Link
    (São paulo) Governor João (John) Dória has tested positive for COVID-19 Also, you know when they moved back the date of "presential classes"? They also announced everyone will pass, no matter...

    (São paulo) Governor João (John) Dória has tested positive for COVID-19

    At 62 years old, he is the 11th governor to get the virus.

    Also, you know when they moved back the date of "presential classes"?
    They also announced everyone will pass, no matter what.

    Portuguese

    O secretário também reafirmou que os alunos não serão reprovados e que haverá um "grande programa de reforço escolar", feito em dois anos, para garantir que os alunos acessem o conteúdo.

    "Quando as aulas presenciais voltarem, será aplicada uma avaliação, uma provinha, para saber o que os alunos aprenderam e o que não [aprenderam]. A partir do resultado dessa prova, vamos calibrar um programa de recuperação e reforço que vai acontecer ao longo desse ano e todo ano que vem. Daí, não há sentido em fazer a reprovação nesse ano, uma vez que a recuperação vai se dar em dois anos."

    (Translated)

    The Secretary also re (?) affirmed that the students will not be rejected and that there will be a "big program of "scholar" (literal translation) reinforcement" done in 2 years, to guarantee all the students will have access to the content.

    When presential classes come back, a test will be applied, a brief test, to know what the students have learned and and what they didn't [learn]. Based on the results of this test, we will calibrate a recovery and reinforcement program that will happen in this year and all of the next year. So, there is no reason in rejecting students this year, if the recovery will occur in 2 years.

    (both the articles are in Portuguese BTW. If anyone can find an English source that cares, please reply. Also I use preformatted as an "editor's note" thing.)

    So it's anarchy then? What now?

    1 vote