28 votes

World Health Organization urges fully vaccinated people to continue to wear masks as delta Covid variant spreads

27 comments

  1. Amarok
    Link
    Lots of confusion about the delta variant. Let's have Dr. John clear that all up in five minutes. The short version: delta is 64% more transmissible than alpha, which itself was 40% more than the...

    Lots of confusion about the delta variant. Let's have Dr. John clear that all up in five minutes.

    The short version:

    • delta is 64% more transmissible than alpha, which itself was 40% more than the original
    • meaning delta is a bit over twice as contagious as the original covid strain from 2019
    • because delta infects with a much smaller inoculum (virus particles you inhale)
    • and produces a much higher viral load much faster once infected
    • so people with delta, even the vaccinated, shed more virus much faster
    • it does not appear to be better at killing people yet than other variants, need more data
    • pfizer and astrazeneca are both 36% effective after 1 dose, 88% after two vs delta
    • illness for the vaccinated is much more mild, 1-2 symptoms instead of 5+
    • if you've had two shots, you're not likely to end up in a hospital even with delta
    • best protection is achieved 2 weeks after the second dose is administered
    • outdoor transmission of delta is possible where it flatly was not for prior strains
    22 votes
  2. [2]
    babypuncher
    Link
    Do they have any evidence that fully vaccinated individuals are at any serious risk from these variants? Because everything I've seen so far seems to indicate that the efficacy of at least the...

    Do they have any evidence that fully vaccinated individuals are at any serious risk from these variants? Because everything I've seen so far seems to indicate that the efficacy of at least the mRNA vaccines is largely unaffected.

    18 votes
    1. AugustusFerdinand
      Link Parent
      No, but that isn't the point. Delta is currently considered community transmission, meaning it is affecting large groups and hasn't been traced yet. So they're erring on the side of caution...

      No, but that isn't the point.

      Delta is currently considered community transmission, meaning it is affecting large groups and hasn't been traced yet. So they're erring on the side of caution because they don't know how it's being transmitted. Could be that vaccinated people are at near-zero risk of harm from the variant, but are carriers.

      15 votes
  3. [7]
    cloud_loud
    Link
    There’s been conflicting information about the Delta variant. This LA Times article suggests that if you’re vaccinated the Delta variant is nothing. I don’t know what to make of it, if I’ve...

    There’s been conflicting information about the Delta variant.

    This LA Times article suggests that if you’re vaccinated the Delta variant is nothing.

    I don’t know what to make of it, if I’ve learned anything from 2020 is that the WHO and the CDC can be wrong, and we probably don’t know how bad the Delta variant is or how much destruction can happen because of it.

    One thing is for sure, the most vulnerable are the unvaccinated.

    14 votes
    1. vord
      Link Parent
      IMO always err on the side of caution. Better to wear a mask and be wrong than go maskless and be dead. I've laxed up on my outdoor masking, but indoors is still always-on.

      IMO always err on the side of caution.

      Better to wear a mask and be wrong than go maskless and be dead.

      I've laxed up on my outdoor masking, but indoors is still always-on.

      15 votes
    2. nothis
      Link Parent
      It bothers me how impatient people are with things that don't even significantly affect them. Like, we've worn a mask for a year, now. What difference does it make if we continue to do so for a...

      It bothers me how impatient people are with things that don't even significantly affect them. Like, we've worn a mask for a year, now. What difference does it make if we continue to do so for a few more months if it means we can crush the damn virus closer to zero? It's not like we're still locking ourselves up at home.

      Just waiting for vaccination rates to go up by a few percentage points should have huge impact.

      13 votes
    3. [3]
      monarda
      Link Parent
      Indeed. I worry most for those I know and do not know who cannot be vaccinated.

      One thing is for sure, the most vulnerable are the unvaccinated.

      Indeed. I worry most for those I know and do not know who cannot be vaccinated.

      8 votes
      1. [2]
        frank
        Link Parent
        I got vaccinated, and got covid anyway 6 months later. And who knows whether my antibodies will even protect me from the delta variant. I did manage to give one other people whatever I had as...

        I got vaccinated, and got covid anyway 6 months later. And who knows whether my antibodies will even protect me from the delta variant. I did manage to give one other people whatever I had as well, so the vaccine did not prevent transmission

        3 votes
        1. monarda
          Link Parent
          Ugh. That's freaking awful. How sick did you get from it? Did it at least give you some protection from the symptoms? I've had the measles vaccine four times as an adult (and also got the...

          Ugh. That's freaking awful. How sick did you get from it? Did it at least give you some protection from the symptoms?

          I've had the measles vaccine four times as an adult (and also got the childhood ones). I can't hold onto the immunity. I'm just one of those rare cases where the vaccine doesn't work for more than a year. It's been more concerning as lower vaccination rates has meant that my state has seen outbreaks in recent years.

          8 votes
    4. knocklessmonster
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I'm of the mind vaccinated people won't have any issue with any variants because we keep seeing big scary headlines swiftly followed by a correction a week later that says something along the...

      I'm of the mind vaccinated people won't have any issue with any variants because we keep seeing big scary headlines swiftly followed by a correction a week later that says something along the lines of "this variant isn't as bad as we assumed." It's largely sensationalist media building these up because researchers are (properly) taking their time studying these variants.

      I will still be cautious because our vaccines don't prevent infection at 100% and I have every intention of dodging this virus like I've dodged every epidemic I've seen.

      4 votes
  4. [11]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [8]
      Wes
      Link Parent
      Do you not go to grocery stores or gas stations? For many it's a necessity of living.

      outside of a small percentage of the immunocompromised who I would be baffled at their behavior to learn if they were out in public at the same places I am

      Do you not go to grocery stores or gas stations? For many it's a necessity of living.

      12 votes
      1. [7]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. eladnarra
          Link Parent
          Non-elderly disabled people exist, and many people take immunosuppressant drugs and live otherwise normal lives. They have kids that go to school, they have jobs, etc. Plus, plenty of nursing...
          • Exemplary

          Most of the immunocompromised will be living in old folks homes where most of their needs are taken care of by the staff living there, who should be vaccinated and masked.

          Non-elderly disabled people exist, and many people take immunosuppressant drugs and live otherwise normal lives. They have kids that go to school, they have jobs, etc. Plus, plenty of nursing homes don't have fully vaccinated staff.

          This isn't hypothetical.

          They shouldn't have to worry about gassing up though since that's an outside activity

          Delta can be transmitted outside, it looks like. And pretty quickly. And with a higher viral load, even vaccinated people will probably be more likely to spread it.

          But, sure, the 10 million or so immunocompromised people (in the US) have been dealing with things like the flu forever, so the rest of us can go back to normal and let them get sick and incubate COVID variants that might one day render our vaccines ineffective.

          EDIT: While I did try to stay level, it looks like some of my anger might have leaked through anyway, sorry. But it's pretty upsetting when people dismiss the lives of millions of people while appearing to know little about disability, congregate care, or the real risk of future variants.

          15 votes
        2. [4]
          Wes
          Link Parent
          I actually agree with you, and I think it's a real conversation we'll have to have as a society. I just don't like the idea of dismissing the consequences of lessening the restrictions. It will...
          • Exemplary

          At a certain point, we just have to accept a trade-off. We can debate where that trade-off should be, but we absolutely do have to accept a trade-off at some point

          I actually agree with you, and I think it's a real conversation we'll have to have as a society. I just don't like the idea of dismissing the consequences of lessening the restrictions. It will impact people, and I think that has to be a part of the conversation.

          As mentioned above, immunocompromised are one consideration. But we should also acknowledge that the vaccine is not 100% effective. For others the vaccine simply doesn't take at all. These people will all be affected.

          I'll also add that not all countries have finished their rollouts. I'm still waiting on my second dose, as are many I know.

          There is one other consideration I hesitantly mention. There are still a great many people that have been tricked into believing that vaccines are dangerous. They're not necessarily anti-vax, but are victims of the anti-vax campaigns. I've certainly known people like this, as I'm sure you have.

          It's easy to sum this up as malice, but it's really just ignorance of the science and the innate human fear that taking an action can be more hazardous than inaction. For many their uncertainty leads them to the path of least resistance (doing nothing). ​And unfortunately that means their children are remaining unvaccinated as well.

          I think it's very easy to dismiss these people out of hand ("they had their chance"), but I also think we can view this as a failing in science communication and education. For every bozo on Facebook spreading anti-vax memes, there's a handful of otherwise-good people that just can't make sense of it all. ​ I suspect it pays ​to have a little empathy for these people, even as we're frustrated with them for making the pandemic harder than it needs to be.

          ​> If a variant presents a credible risk to the vaccinated though, then of course we can implement safety measures again.

          I think that's what we're trying to figure out right now. There are still variants that we don't fully understand yet. If it turns out the current vaccines are effective for all known variants, then easing off restrictions does make more sense.

          My main concern is if they're not effective. Our initial response was slow enough that we allowed multiple more aggressive variants to emerge. Those strains may now evolve into something considerably worse, in which case we'll be back to square one. Imagine a new variant that is completely immune to our current vaccine.

          That's why I feel we should make a considerable effort to reduce the possibility of new strains emerging. The only way to do that is to reduce the number of cases. It seems we have the tools required for that now (working from home, flight limitations, mask acceptance, and the ability to rapidly develop and deploy vaccines). If we can push a little harder and get the numbers down to where a new variant emerging is unlikely, I think we may be saving ourselves a lot of hardship in the long run.

          10 votes
          1. [3]
            post_below
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            A note about variants... History tells us that most infectious diseases, and definitely coronaviruses, tend to evolve to be less deadly as opposed to more. The delta variant flies in the face of...

            A note about variants... History tells us that most infectious diseases, and definitely coronaviruses, tend to evolve to be less deadly as opposed to more. The delta variant flies in the face of that, and there's no guarantee that an even worse version won't come along, but the odds at least are good that SARS-CoV-2 will eventually become less nasty.

            The chance of getting to the point where no new variants are emerging is zero. Bear in mind that there are ever evolving coronaviruses that are some of the more common causes of the common cold. Even the descendants of the 1918 flu are still with us.

            Edit: TIL there are 4 coronaviruses that cause colds, along with the 3 that cause more serious illness (SARS 1, SARS 2 and MERS).

            3 votes
            1. [2]
              Grzmot
              Link Parent
              Delta is more infectious I thought, not better at killing people?

              Delta is more infectious I thought, not better at killing people?

              1 vote
              1. post_below
                Link Parent
                From what I've read it's both more infectious and causes more hospitalizations. It also appears to cause serious illness in younger people at a higher rate. And also the numbers are all new and...

                From what I've read it's both more infectious and causes more hospitalizations. It also appears to cause serious illness in younger people at a higher rate.

                And also the numbers are all new and changing so I don't know if anyone can say for sure yet that delta (or delta plus, or now epsilon) causes more severe illness.

                2 votes
        3. post_below
          Link Parent
          +1 for this bit of sanity. We have at least three, likely more, globally endemic coronaviruses that cause illness in humans already. There's no empirical reason to believe COVID will be different....

          +1 for this bit of sanity. We have at least three, likely more, globally endemic coronaviruses that cause illness in humans already. There's no empirical reason to believe COVID will be different.

          The WHO recommendation is entirely reasonable given that they're a global organization and much of the world still has low vaccine rates. But the US is approaching 70% of the population vaccinated with shots that have been shown to be nearly 90% effective against the delta variant.

          If that was true globally, the WHO would have a different recommendation.

          The immunocompromised are at risk of all kinds of diseases, not just COVID. It would be great if we could perfectly guarantee their safety but we just can't. It seems to me that it's an emotional, rather than rational, argument. If the goal was truly to protect them in public then we'd be talking about wearing PPE everywhere, forever.

          Personally, I'm still wearing a mask indoors and in crowded spaces most of the time, because why not. I chuckle, though, as we wear our masks to get to and from the table where we then take them off and spew particulates at one another for well past the amount of time required to ensure transmission.

          14 votes
      2. eladnarra
        Link Parent
        Not to mention doctor appointments. Weirdly, chronically ill and disabled people need to see doctors or get emergency care more often than abled people. (You'd think that all medical professionals...

        Not to mention doctor appointments. Weirdly, chronically ill and disabled people need to see doctors or get emergency care more often than abled people.

        (You'd think that all medical professionals would get vaccinated and wear masks, but you'd be wrong! I've had multiple experiences where I've had to ask an imaging tech to put on their mask, and I had to stay in small spaces for extended periods with the air that they breathed out before I arrived. I'm really not looking forward to Delta becoming the dominant strain in the US.)

        8 votes
    2. [2]
      SunSpotter
      Link Parent
      Personally, I'm worried about what would happen if I managed to get COVID twice. I'm not sure if it's verifiably happened to a non-immunocompromised person yet, but it's becoming clearer and...

      Personally, I'm worried about what would happen if I managed to get COVID twice. I'm not sure if it's verifiably happened to a non-immunocompromised person yet, but it's becoming clearer and clearer that COVID is just something we're stuck with now. What happens if I let my guard down now, and then 2 years later when my antibodies have all but forgotten about COVID, I get whatever the current strain is? Will it mostly be the same experience, whatever that may be? Will the effects compound and result in a more severe reaction? I don't think anyone really knows, but COVID is weird enough that I'm not going to simply assume the former.

      Perhaps just as importantly, I'm registered as an organ donor. I feel like there's a strong likelihood that organs (specifically hearts and lungs) which have never been infected with COVID will be preferred or perhaps outright required, and they will become rarer and rarer as time goes on. If something ever happens to me, it would be nice to at least know a part of me will go to good use, and won't be spoiled by COVID.

      Maybe I'm just paranoid and I should just live my life, but it's hard to shake the thoughts from my mind.

      1 vote
      1. Amarok
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        From everything I've watched and read on this (like, daily for a year) if you've had any of the covid strains, your immune system already knows how to fight the virus, having learned how to...

        From everything I've watched and read on this (like, daily for a year) if you've had any of the covid strains, your immune system already knows how to fight the virus, having learned how to recognize it and kill it. These mutations change a fraction of a percent of the genome, and you'd have to change a much greater amount of it for the immune system to get fooled. You will begin making antibodies instantly, rather than after a 3-5 day learning curve.

        If you've had it once, catching it the second time is likely to give you cold-like symptoms, the most common of which is a headache paired with sore throat or a stuffy nose - and for most people who have had it or been vaccinated, there will be no noticeable symptoms at all. It's more likely you'd catch it, then spread it to everyone you meet for about three days after, and never even know you'd had it again.

        All the data we have says this is a long term immunity, so your immune system is going to remember this for years, likely even decades.

        2 votes
  5. [3]
    mrbig
    Link
    Why waste time with long sophisticated discussions when we're just talking about a piece of cloth over our faces? Using a mask is low effort. The burden of proof to justify using it is very low....

    Why waste time with long sophisticated discussions when we're just talking about a piece of cloth over our faces? Using a mask is low effort. The burden of proof to justify using it is very low. If there's even a very low likelyhood that using it will help, just freaking use it. What's the big deal? I'd rather defer the reasoning to WHO than entertaining my own misinformed arguments. I'm not an epidemiologist.

    6 votes
    1. [2]
      cloud_loud
      Link Parent
      Because after the CDC announcement, and the subsequent relaxation of mask usage (at least here in the U.S) people have stopped wearing masks for a month or so. I've been to the grocery store and...

      Because after the CDC announcement, and the subsequent relaxation of mask usage (at least here in the U.S) people have stopped wearing masks for a month or so. I've been to the grocery store and the majority of people don't have masks, even ones that have obviously not been vaccinated like people under 16. It's going to be hard to convince people to wear masks again.

      4 votes
      1. mrbig
        Link Parent
        I'd argue that a lack of information is seldom responsible for that behavior.

        I'd argue that a lack of information is seldom responsible for that behavior.

        1 vote
  6. NomadicCoder
    Link
    ...and yet, here I sit on a Zoom call watching 18+ people in a conference room without masks -- at a medical company. I don't get it -- there's no reason for everybody to be in the same room for...

    ...and yet, here I sit on a Zoom call watching 18+ people in a conference room without masks -- at a medical company. I don't get it -- there's no reason for everybody to be in the same room for this meeting, there's no reason for them to be without masks when not speaking.

    5 votes
  7. [3]
    NomadicCoder
    Link
    I, for one, am hoping for more information to come out about the efficacy of the Janssen (JnJ) vaccine against the Delta variant. I'm seeing an increase in the number of articles saying that...

    I, for one, am hoping for more information to come out about the efficacy of the Janssen (JnJ) vaccine against the Delta variant. I'm seeing an increase in the number of articles saying that Janssen recipients might need a booster of one of the others, but no data yet about the safety of doing so.

    It seems that there are clinical trials in progress, but it really leaves those of us who received that shot in an unfortunate situation waiting to find out, so I'll definitely continue to mask indoors, and even outdoors when around people for longer periods. (I've not yet gone back to masking on hiking trails and other places where I'll pass people briefly without explicit interaction)

    4 votes
    1. [2]
      teaearlgraycold
      Link Parent
      Any info on double vaccinating? If you're in the US there's certainly the availability for it.

      Any info on double vaccinating? If you're in the US there's certainly the availability for it.

      4 votes
      1. NomadicCoder
        Link Parent
        Yeah, that's what I keep hoping for. Looks like some places are starting to just do it, but it also looks like the safety trials are still in progress. I saw one recently that's in the selection...

        Yeah, that's what I keep hoping for. Looks like some places are starting to just do it, but it also looks like the safety trials are still in progress. I saw one recently that's in the selection phase, which I considered signing up for, but I might not get in due to my employment being too closely related to one of the manufacturers.