26 votes

The co-opted Chinese word that broke risk management - crisis is not danger plus opportunity

31 comments

  1. [8]
    stu2b50
    Link
    On etymology, the article isn't wrong per se, 危机 is probably most commonly seen as in 经济危机, or economic crisis, so a bit more grandiose than risk. 机 is more commonly used as in "machine", 飞机 is...

    On etymology, the article isn't wrong per se, 危机 is probably most commonly seen as in 经济危机, or economic crisis, so a bit more grandiose than risk. 机 is more commonly used as in "machine", 飞机 is airplane, for instance.

    On cultural appropriation, idk, not really seeing it. I don't have an issue with it, anyhow 老外用一点儿汉子是好事,没什么问题

    Chinese people torture components of words to make strained meanings all the time. In English, it'd be like saying "there's no I in team".

    27 votes
    1. [3]
      chocobean
      Link Parent
      (psstt minor typo 漢字) But yeah in general Suits say all kinds of things that are tortured and dumb in every language. They have their own language. It's like ABC Always Be Closing - kinda cute,...

      (psstt minor typo 漢字)

      But yeah in general Suits say all kinds of things that are tortured and dumb in every language. They have their own language. It's like ABC Always Be Closing - kinda cute, kinda works, all about the hustle.

      The jī of wēijī, in fact, means something like “incipient moment; crucial point (when something begins or changes).”

      I do like incipient, because it sounds so cool. I guess the 機 (ji) is more like 契機 , an incipient moment/event/trigger , where the cleverness and interconnectedness aspect of it inspired the modern mechanization family of words 機械 (mechanism) --> 飛機 (air machine) /計算機 (calculate machine) / 無人機 (no man machine - drone) etc.

      (Also apologies I don't know how to type simplified characters)

      14 votes
      1. [2]
        sparksbet
        Link Parent
        DeepL translated the sentence as "It's good for foreigners to use a little hanky-panky" all because of the difference between 子 and 字 lmao I love Chinese

        (psstt minor typo 漢字)

        DeepL translated the sentence as "It's good for foreigners to use a little hanky-panky" all because of the difference between 子 and 字 lmao I love Chinese

        8 votes
        1. terr
          Link Parent
          Chrome translated it as "a little bit of manliness", which I just took to be maybe some sort of saying about being bold and embracing other cultures.

          Chrome translated it as "a little bit of manliness", which I just took to be maybe some sort of saying about being bold and embracing other cultures.

          3 votes
    2. [4]
      boxer_dogs_dance
      Link Parent
      I'm not the author. I believe he is pointing to the fact that business influencers have asserted a stronger more definitive interpretation of the meaning of the word than is apparent for the...

      I'm not the author. I believe he is pointing to the fact that business influencers have asserted a stronger more definitive interpretation of the meaning of the word than is apparent for the phrase there is no I in team. I believe he is also questioning the way the phrase has been used to justify and encourage an opportunistic, almost piratical attitude towards crises in society. See also disaster capitalism

      4 votes
      1. [3]
        stu2b50
        Link Parent
        At least I don't really see it in the examples in the article. It seems like a throwaway fun fact, like "there's no I in team" is. I wouldn't really say so. The association of risk with reward...

        I believe he is pointing to the fact that business influencers have asserted a stronger more definitive interpretation of the meaning of the word than is apparent for the phrase there is no I in team.

        At least I don't really see it in the examples in the article. It seems like a throwaway fun fact, like "there's no I in team" is.

        I believe he is also questioning the way the phrase has been used to justify and encourage an opportunistic, almost piratical attitude towards crises in society

        I wouldn't really say so. The association of risk with reward goes back to the beginning of human society. It's a risk to travel hundreds of miles across the silk road, but you do it because the more risk, the more money.

        It's natural in a somewhat competitive or liquid market for there to be a risk premium. This isn't magic; of course, anything that doesn't require risk will be saturated first, and then the more risky something is, the more you have to pay the other party to do it.

        11 votes
        1. [2]
          boxer_dogs_dance
          Link Parent
          But risk is not the same as crisis.

          But risk is not the same as crisis.

          2 votes
          1. stu2b50
            Link Parent
            Sure, but the point is more that I don't think the (mostly wrong) anecdote about the chinese word has anything to do with whether or not those books are written. It seems like it's just a random,...

            Sure, but the point is more that I don't think the (mostly wrong) anecdote about the chinese word has anything to do with whether or not those books are written. It seems like it's just a random, throwaway fun fact that's used in the opening paragraph as the "hook", or the "try not to bore you asleep in the first page".

            The author of the article is putting more importance on it than the actual people writing those risk books. Risk and reward (that's a phrase in english for a reason) have been associated long before white people found about 危机 and will continue to be associated long after.

            15 votes
  2. [13]
    Dr_Amazing
    Link
    Different language but this stuff really got me when I was trying to learn Japanese. I'd draw all these connections tobtry to understand and remember words, that were almost always wrong. For...

    Different language but this stuff really got me when I was trying to learn Japanese. I'd draw all these connections tobtry to understand and remember words, that were almost always wrong.

    For example I knew kyojin mean "giant", literally the characters for "gigantic" and "person". Then I learned kyoryu meant "dinosaur ". I already knew the ryu from the word "dragon". So I'm like "Oh this makes perfect sense. Dinosaur is big dragon." Only to immediately be corrected by a native speaker that this particular kyo was actually a different character meaning fearsome or scary, and it was a complete coincidence that they sound the same.

    11 votes
    1. [6]
      sandaltree
      Link Parent
      Except in this case the sound is not the same. You’re thinking of the きょ in 巨人 and きょう in 恐竜. Kyou vs. Kyo. Of course there are some cases like you described but just wanted to point out that this...

      Except in this case the sound is not the same. You’re thinking of the きょ in 巨人 and きょう in 恐竜. Kyou vs. Kyo. Of course there are some cases like you described but just wanted to point out that this is not one of them :)

      8 votes
      1. [3]
        Dr_Amazing
        Link Parent
        Ahh jeeze even my mistake has mistakes. Another dumb one was that I was convinced that the name: tamagotchi, the little virtual pet toys, but be a play on tomodachi meaning "friend". Nope, turns...

        Ahh jeeze even my mistake has mistakes.

        Another dumb one was that I was convinced that the name: tamagotchi, the little virtual pet toys, but be a play on tomodachi meaning "friend".

        Nope, turns out it's a mix of tamago "egg" and the word for "watch"

        6 votes
        1. sandaltree
          Link Parent
          Oh yeah the Japanese love their four mora abbreviations. Like how "family restaurant" or famirī resutoran (ファミリーレストラン) becomes famiresu (ファミレス).

          Oh yeah the Japanese love their four mora abbreviations. Like how "family restaurant" or famirī resutoran (ファミリーレストラン) becomes famiresu (ファミレス).

          1 vote
        2. DefinitelyNotAFae
          Link Parent
          Is it still pseudo-etymology when working with characters? Or is there a more specific term I wonder.

          Is it still pseudo-etymology when working with characters? Or is there a more specific term I wonder.

      2. [2]
        chocobean
        Link Parent
        !! I've also wondered about きのこ (kinoko) as in mushrooms 🍄 In my head I always read it as 木の子 - (ki no ko) mushrooms are the children of trees? Funny coincidence for new language learner ?

        !! I've also wondered about きのこ (kinoko) as in mushrooms 🍄

        In my head I always read it as 木の子 - (ki no ko) mushrooms are the children of trees? Funny coincidence for new language learner ?

        2 votes
        1. sandaltree
          Link Parent
          The Japanese wikipedia page does list that as a possible etymology/destructuring, but it would never be written like that. It’s almost always in kana (or rarely in kanji).

          The Japanese wikipedia page does list that as a possible etymology/destructuring, but it would never be written like that. It’s almost always in kana (or rarely in kanji).

          2 votes
    2. [4]
      sparksbet
      Link Parent
      Chinese languages are sometimes more consistent than that, since they don't have the "using characters made for a different language family for both native words and loanwords from that language...

      Chinese languages are sometimes more consistent than that, since they don't have the "using characters made for a different language family for both native words and loanwords from that language family" weirdness that plagues Japanese. But then sometimes you need to know a specific story to understand a chengyu, so. It's not that much easier.

      7 votes
      1. [3]
        Hollow
        Link Parent
        Hah. "Oh, metro is 地铁, Ground Rail. And high speed trains are 高铁, Tall Rail, and they run on elevated tracks, so that's logical. Ground Rail runs underground and Tall Rail runs over the ground"...

        Chinese languages are sometimes more consistent than that

        Hah.

        "Oh, metro is 地铁, Ground Rail. And high speed trains are 高铁, Tall Rail, and they run on elevated tracks, so that's logical. Ground Rail runs underground and Tall Rail runs over the ground"

        Nope it turns out that 高 means high both as in tall and as in high speed, and 高铁 is a contraction of High Speed Rail that happens to also translate literally as Tall Rail.

        11 votes
        1. sparksbet
          Link Parent
          I did say "sometimes" 😆

          I did say "sometimes" 😆

          6 votes
        2. chocobean
          Link Parent
          The full names are consistent, but Mandarin speakers like to contact everything :) you're right 高鐵 was "高速鐵路 high speed metal road", and "地下鐵路 ground under metal road" subway , both coming from...

          The full names are consistent, but Mandarin speakers like to contact everything :) you're right 高鐵 was "高速鐵路 high speed metal road", and "地下鐵路 ground under metal road" subway , both coming from

          鐵路(蒸氣)火車/列車 "metal road (boiled air) fire car / linked cars" (steam powered train ) - fire car sounds dumb but wikipedia names the source (1841) :

          火车在中国文献中的最早记载出自《海国图志》,介绍蒸汽机是“火蒸水汽、舟车所动之机关”。亦是“火车”、“蒸汽机车”等词汇之词源[2]。(Fire steams water vapors, which powers a mechanism to move a vehicle)

          Actually makes more sense to me on a literal level than some English etymological terms

          5 votes
    3. [2]
      Baeocystin
      Link Parent
      I felt kind of the same way when I learned that -san also just meant mountain. I still think Fuji-san is fun, respectful way to refer to such an important volcano, even if only being amused...

      I felt kind of the same way when I learned that -san also just meant mountain. I still think Fuji-san is fun, respectful way to refer to such an important volcano, even if only being amused homonymically.

      3 votes
      1. chocobean
        Link Parent
        One day, my kid and I saw a sign outside of a health food store, advertising for pills with chitosan. We looked at each other and said, huh, who's Chito? (Chitosan is a biopolymer from chitin of...

        One day, my kid and I saw a sign outside of a health food store, advertising for pills with chitosan. We looked at each other and said, huh, who's Chito?

        (Chitosan is a biopolymer from chitin of shelled creatures)

        3 votes
  3. [4]
    papasquat
    Link
    Coming at this from the opposite angle, as I know virtually nothing about Mandarin Chinese, but I do deal with the management consulting types that the author describes, and my job has a ton of...

    Coming at this from the opposite angle, as I know virtually nothing about Mandarin Chinese, but I do deal with the management consulting types that the author describes, and my job has a ton of crossover into risk management.

    The problem that these people are trying to get their arms around when they talk about "positive risk" is a limitation of language, and I think what's happening is that a lot of consultants just fundementally misunderstand the problem that the term "positive risk" is trying to fix. We don't actually have a good word in English for the idea that positive risk is trying to convey.

    The OP is correct that risk is exclusively a bad thing. There's no such thing as "good risk". Risk is inherently a chance of something bad happening. Saying that a risk is good would be like saying that depression can be enjoyable. If it's enjoyable, it's not depression. Similarly, if it's good, it's not a risk. Taking risks can be good, which is where there may be some confusion.

    If you're a soldier, and your friend is wounded 20 feet away from you, pinned down by machine gun fire, it may be a good thing to take the risk of getting hit by the machine gun fire to drag him to safety, saving his life. Grabbing your friend is not the risk in the situation. Getting shot by a machine gun is. So even though saving your friend and taking the risk of getting hit may be good overall, getting shot is not good. It's unequivocally bad. The risk is not good. The opportunity that the risk is attached to may be good though.

    That leads us to the issue. There are situations that are the opposite of risk. There's a chance that the business may produce more revenue than projected. There's a chance that a lawsuit may result in a far bigger award than was previously thought. There's a chance that, by sheer dumb luck, the products you develop become the lynchpin behind a massive global rush in a new industry (cough Nvidia). We don't really have a word in English to describe this situation. The OP puts forth "opportunity", but that's not really quite right. An opportunity is a situation that may have a positive outcome attached to it, but it's not the word for the chance of the positive outcome itself. Opportunities themselves may actually (and usually do) have risk attached to them. "Windfall" is probably the closest thing I can think of that gets kinda close to the idea, but windfalls are exclusively things that have not and cannot be predicted, whereas an entire field exists to predict and control risk (and "positive risk"). A windfall is also a discrete thing that happens, not the chance of that thing happening. A factory exploding is not a risk. The possibility that a factory may explode is a risk. Similarly, finding a million dollars on the street is a windfall. The possibility of finding a million dollars on the street is a WORD NOT FOUND.

    The executive mumbo jumbo world came up with the term "positive risk" to describe this. It's frankly a terrible term because of how confusing it is, because positive risk is not in any way shape or form a subset of risk, a type of risk, or a form of risk. It's similar to how antimatter is not a type of matter. It's the opposite of matter. (Antirisk may be a potential term, but I think it sounds even more confusing).

    I think this Chinese stuff is a flailing attempt to find SOME term to describe "positive risk" more succinctly, and it's so interesting that English just plain doesn't have a term to accurately describe the concept.

    (Also if I got any of the particle physics stuff wrong, sorry, that stuff sounds like actual magic to me)

    11 votes
    1. skybrian
      Link Parent
      If it's unlikely to pay off then you could call it a "lottery ticket." Maybe a "good bet" would work, though that's vague? In finance, maybe you'd call it an option? Options are worth money, even...

      If it's unlikely to pay off then you could call it a "lottery ticket." Maybe a "good bet" would work, though that's vague? In finance, maybe you'd call it an option? Options are worth money, even though they don't always pay off. As verb, or maybe call it "taking a chance."

      4 votes
    2. Minori
      Link Parent
      Arguably, "possibility" is the closest English has for a potential positive outcome which the subject may have influence over. For example the phrase, "think of the possibilities!" is generally...

      The possibility of finding a million dollars on the street is a WORD NOT FOUND.

      Arguably, "possibility" is the closest English has for a potential positive outcome which the subject may have influence over. For example the phrase, "think of the possibilities!" is generally positive though a common retort is a sarcastic, "Yeah. Think of the possibilities." so it's not exactly right.

      If it's random chance and good fortune, we could use the word serendipity. Although it's typically used for happy accidents, it's fine for any unexpected good luck. Not quite what you're looking to describe though.

      3 votes
    3. CptBluebear
      Link Parent
      Luck. It's plain old luck. Which goes both ways. Nvidia was lucky, and I was not because there was not a million dollars on the ground on my way to work. I so hoped there was because there...

      Luck. It's plain old luck. Which goes both ways. Nvidia was lucky, and I was not because there was not a million dollars on the ground on my way to work. I so hoped there was because there could've been.

      The possibility of finding a million dollars on the street is CHANCE.

      If you purposefully go looking for that million dollars it's a calculated risk. A bad calculation mind, but calculated nonetheless. You're lucky if it's there and unlucky if it's not. To go looking for it increases your chances too but you risk wasting time.

      1 vote
  4. [6]
    boxer_dogs_dance
    Link
    I humbly submit this article for evaluation by the community. It looks plausible and potentially important/interesting but I don't read Chinese.

    I humbly submit this article for evaluation by the community. It looks plausible and potentially important/interesting but I don't read Chinese.

    6 votes
    1. [5]
      chocobean
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Additional perspective from a Cantonese speaking Hong Konger. We use the cliche 危機就是機會 " danger = risk + opportunity " quite frequently as well. Cantonese, like most modern metropolitan languages,...
      • Exemplary

      Additional perspective from a Cantonese speaking Hong Konger.

      We use the cliche 危機就是機會 " danger = risk + opportunity " quite frequently as well. Cantonese, like most modern metropolitan languages, is very context oriented and highly fluid: we understand what newly coined phrases mean easily, and incorporate them into speech with little regards to historic meanings.

      It's been long understood when someone causally says 機 (ji) by itself apart from "danger", we could mean 機會 opportunity without using the second half of the phrase. Examples of 有冇機, eg, "is there, or is there not, an opportunity":

      Cosmopolitan magazine 2019

      辦公室戀愛有冇機?8個肢體行為話你知 (office romance, is it possible? 8 body languages you should know)

      Forum post 2019

      又話吳想冇左我呢個朋友,但現時想single,我仲有冇機?佢究境係咩心態? (She said she doesn't want to lose me as a friend, but want to be single right now. Do I have a shot? What's she thinking?)

      Non romance examples:

      8 號波有冇機 - (level 8 typhoon: will it happen?)

      Another forum has numerous examples of the phrase "有冇機" used casually for everything from "can I still get a sale price from last week" to "think I could buy a Rolex?"

      So. No. Not cultural misappropriation any more than the usual marketing people appropriating everything to make a slide/sale.

      You could definitely piece out words and form new meaning if the context is clear, and it's kinda funny or catchy etc even if historically the text doesn't work that way. I would not regard this as cultural misappropriation at all.

      19 votes
      1. [4]
        boxer_dogs_dance
        Link Parent
        Good to know. This is why I posted the article. Now the question is should I delete it.

        Good to know. This is why I posted the article.

        Now the question is should I delete it.

        2 votes
        1. Fal
          Link Parent
          Probably not, there's some good discussion in the comments here!

          Probably not, there's some good discussion in the comments here!

          11 votes
        2. [2]
          chocobean
          Link Parent
          Noooo don't delete :D i had a great time reading the article and it's rare for me to have something actually relevant to say ....

          Noooo don't delete :D i had a great time reading the article and it's rare for me to have something actually relevant to say ....

          4 votes
          1. boxer_dogs_dance
            Link Parent
            I liked the article also. The other user seemed to think that the article was disproven, useless and a waste of time. I'm going to leave the discussion here.

            I liked the article also.

            The other user seemed to think that the article was disproven, useless and a waste of time.

            I'm going to leave the discussion here.

            3 votes