25 votes

1000 years from now, assuming records still exist, what do you think historians will give as the end date for the American Empire?

The Ottoman Empire ended in 1922. The Roman Empire, 476, though it was survived by the Eastern Roman Empire which lasted until 1453 and the Holy Roman Empire which stuck around in some form until 1806.

Obviously these dates are inexact, but it's a useful historical tool to pick two events and use them as bookends to describe the arc of a given empire or society.

So with the benefit of sufficient hindsight, say 500 or 1000 years from now, what do you think will be the generally accepted date printed in history books for "here's the event that signals the end of this period of history"?

Do you believe it will be some point in the past, or the future? If you think it's in the past, how far back? What event?

If you think it's in the future, how far in the future? What do you predict will happen at that time to be the historical marker?

p.s. don't say "all history will be forgotten because of nuclear war". I agree that's a distinct possibility, but the likelihood of it happening is best addressed as a separate topic from this one. for the purposes of this thread assume we haven't completely fucked ourselves as a species and at least some records of our current time period exist.

33 comments

  1. [5]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. json
      Link Parent
      Probably replaced by some sort of UN Dollar that would come out of a new Bretton Woods type conference.

      Probably replaced by some sort of UN Dollar that would come out of a new Bretton Woods type conference.

      6 votes
    2. [3]
      Shahriar
      Link Parent
      Absolutely, it's also why whenever another country with oil reserves starts trading their oil for anything but USD, the US does not take it kindly. The petrodollar is a big influence over geopolitics.

      Absolutely, it's also why whenever another country with oil reserves starts trading their oil for anything but USD, the US does not take it kindly. The petrodollar is a big influence over geopolitics.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        PlatoLake
        Link Parent
        That's when we inject some FREEDOOM into their country...

        That's when we inject some FREEDOOM into their country...

        4 votes
  2. [12]
    CALICO
    Link
    Sometime in the 2030's, I think. The US isn't going to be irrelevant anytime soon, but this Presidency is doing an immense amount of damage to our soft power and influence that we might never...

    Sometime in the 2030's, I think.

    The US isn't going to be irrelevant anytime soon, but this Presidency is doing an immense amount of damage to our soft power and influence that we might never recover from. We'll hold on for a while probably. China is expanding their influence over the Pacific, and I think their global influence will only increase over the coming years. Europe will probably strengthen as well, assuming they can weather this kind-of, Russian sponsored, Right Wing, authoritarian insurrection type thing trying to take root. 15-ish years sounds right, for somebody else to take the spotlight.

    18 votes
    1. [11]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [10]
        CALICO
        Link Parent
        I'm in the same boat. There's climate change to contend with as well, as that will only become more relevant every year. I've been looking at the Nordic countries as well as Canada for possible...

        I'm in the same boat. There's climate change to contend with as well, as that will only become more relevant every year. I've been looking at the Nordic countries as well as Canada for possible places to emigrate to. I've been recently trying to decide on a degree program to get into to make myself valuable; Mathematics might be a good fit for me.

        5 votes
        1. [10]
          Comment deleted by author
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          1. [7]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. [7]
              Comment deleted by author
              Link Parent
              1. [4]
                Comment deleted by author
                Link Parent
                1. [3]
                  cfabbro
                  Link Parent
                  You know we have VISA, Mastercard and the same Credit Score checks as the US up here in Canada too, right? You can't just ignore the debt you accrued in the US and have it magically disappear...

                  America is built on debt. Charge it all, leave, and don't pay. There's nothing they can do if you don't come back.

                  You know we have VISA, Mastercard and the same Credit Score checks as the US up here in Canada too, right? You can't just ignore the debt you accrued in the US and have it magically disappear because you immigrate here.

                  6 votes
                  1. [3]
                    Comment deleted by author
                    Link Parent
                    1. spit-evil-olive-tips
                      Link Parent
                      It's much bigger than just that $200 fee, though. Moving can get really expensive. Anywhere from $1000 for an average intrastate move to $5k-10k for a big interstate move, depending on whose...

                      It's much bigger than just that $200 fee, though. Moving can get really expensive. Anywhere from $1000 for an average intrastate move to $5k-10k for a big interstate move, depending on whose estimates you want to believe. Moving between countries is going to be even higher.

                      To a large degree, moving is a privilege that only people with a certain amount of wealth can afford. Advocating committing what amounts to credit card fraud is...not a great way to deal with that hurdle.

                      6 votes
                    2. cfabbro
                      Link Parent
                      Huh, TIL. I assumed since we use the same credit tracking companies up here (Equifax & TransUnion) that credit scores would transfer. I still wouldn't recommend taking on a bunch of debt,...

                      Huh, TIL. I assumed since we use the same credit tracking companies up here (Equifax & TransUnion) that credit scores would transfer. I still wouldn't recommend taking on a bunch of debt, "fleeing" here and hoping it never comes to bite you in the ass. But I do agree that $200 shouldn't be holding you back from a major life goal.

                      3 votes
              2. [2]
                lmn
                Link Parent
                The 400 dollar statistic is that people couldn't come up with 400 dollars immediately in an emergency - not that half of adults couldn't come up with 400 dollars or so over the period of a few...

                The 400 dollar statistic is that people couldn't come up with 400 dollars immediately in an emergency - not that half of adults couldn't come up with 400 dollars or so over the period of a few years. If you think it's important to leave, start saving and coming up with a plan now.

                As an example, consider the humanitarian migrants from Syria in Europe, or Mexican immigrants in the US. These groups are hardly privileged or wealthy but also quite capable of migration to a new country. Realistically, you are as well.

                Personally, I think planning to flee the US is alarmist and silly. The US may lose economic or military supremacy over the next couple decades but I see absolutely no indication of America becoming something like Nazi Germany or falling into a lawless anarchy or whatever.

                5 votes
                1. Askme_about_penguins
                  Link Parent
                  What country is going to accept a US citizen as a refugee?

                  As an example, consider the humanitarian migrants from Syria in Europe, or Mexican immigrants in the US. These groups are hardly privileged or wealthy but also quite capable of migration to a new country. Realistically, you are as well.

                  What country is going to accept a US citizen as a refugee?

                  3 votes
              3. Suppercutz
                Link Parent
                This rings true, but there are a number of folks from across the world from far less privileged positions that make it in to Canada each year under different auspices. Many don't, that's true....

                This rings true, but there are a number of folks from across the world from far less privileged positions that make it in to Canada each year under different auspices. Many don't, that's true.

                That said, privilege is not the only means to and end. It's a good one, but not having it only provides fewer options, not no options at all.

                1 vote
          2. BuckeyeSundae
            Link Parent
            This is a fight that I have explicitly been having with myself for a while now. The 2016 election broke my heart. The 2010 election hurt too, but the cultural repudiation in 2016 and the...

            This is a fight that I have explicitly been having with myself for a while now.

            The 2016 election broke my heart. The 2010 election hurt too, but the cultural repudiation in 2016 and the subsequent backlash made me really question for the first time in my life whether this area is the sort of place I want to live in and give back to. The neighbors certainly think I’m ruining the country and people like me.

            I balance back and forth at the moment. On the one hand, I have a reasonable choice. Many people don’t. I do feel a responsibility to those people, and I worked with many in the campaign.

            On the other hand, I kind of emotionally done. It’s not that I’m jaded or cynical. I know this shit runs in cycles. It’s that I don’t know how much longer I am willing to sacrifice my happiness for a vague and maybe unattainable public good. How longer should I cripple my chances of finding a good partner who can balance me? How much longer should I give my heart out to a country that seems determined to rip it to shreds?

            I’ve got enough trust issues to keep adding my fairly public activist stances to them. At a certain point, it makes more for me to get the hint and look out for myself.

            People in this country aren’t listening to people who disagree with them, even as social media creates more incentives to disagree with one another than ever. Maybe it’s because of that increased access that it’s harder to keep from seeing the assholes. Maybe the structure just helps turn people into assholes. At this point, observational equivalence would suggest both, and I’m less interested in banging my head into the wall.

            5 votes
          3. CALICO
            Link Parent
            I have a lot of privilege, and I try to stay cognizant of that. I don't know what I'm going to do, but if I do emigrate it's not going to be for probably a decade at least. If shit hits the fan...

            I have a lot of privilege, and I try to stay cognizant of that.

            I don't know what I'm going to do, but if I do emigrate it's not going to be for probably a decade at least. If shit hits the fan here in the meantime, I'll be right here with y'all. Lord knows things could get very bad, very quick, and make what we're going through right now look like nothing at all. One of my biggest personal issues with leaving is that I'd be leaving behind a lot of people I care very deeply about. What's survival without your loved ones?

            Anyway, my plans to leave are not tied to our politics, but specifically climate change and it's long-term effects. The West Coast is going to keep drying out, and what isn't desertified will be plagued with fires. The East Coast is going to be pummeled by storms and swallowed by the sea. The breadbasket will get to experience Dust Bowl v2. Things won't get dire for the next several decades at least, but one day they will. Canada will probably be alright for the near future, but even Europe is going to be experiencing heat waves like never before.

            4 votes
          4. Askme_about_penguins
            Link Parent
            Honestly, I don't feel like I own anything to the general public. Why should I care for their well-being if they don't care for mine nor do I expect them to? If the ship's sinking and I can save...

            Honestly, I don't feel like I own anything to the general public. Why should I care for their well-being if they don't care for mine nor do I expect them to?

            If the ship's sinking and I can save myself then I'm jumping out. It's not my fault that others don't know how to swim. Nor would I hold them back if the situation was reversed.

            And I'm pretty sure most people think the same.

    2. jcz
      Link Parent
      I don't buy this take at all. I think it is mostly guided by people's dislike of Trump. China is smoke and mirrors, a completely fudged set of numbers enabled by rampant corruption. It will...

      I don't buy this take at all. I think it is mostly guided by people's dislike of Trump.

      China is smoke and mirrors, a completely fudged set of numbers enabled by rampant corruption. It will collapse eventually. We will look fantastic in comparison regardless of one president being somewhat off-putting. It all comes back to money and how much you actually trust your long term investments in a country. The Chinese people don't even trust their own milk powder. You can't bring any IP over there without it being stolen. You can't actually own anything over there, you can't become a citizen, you can't do anything without getting rooked.

      The idea that China will supersede is anytime soon seems more born of partisanship than in reality regardless of the number of people they have.

  3. [8]
    Algernon_Asimov
    (edited )
    Link
    That's an interesting question. One famous empire, the Roman Empire, has a few endpoints. However, as you point out, it's commonly accepted that the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 A.D. But......

    That's an interesting question.

    One famous empire, the Roman Empire, has a few endpoints. However, as you point out, it's commonly accepted that the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 A.D.

    But... this overlooks one big point: Rome had been falling for centuries before that. It had been sacked four times in the century leading up to 476. How were the Gauls, the Visigoths, the Vandals, and the Ostrogoths all able to sack a city that had stood for over 1,000 years and, at one point, ruled most of the known world? The rot had obviously set in a long time before that, or these invaders would have been repelled. Look at Carthage's attempt, led by Hannibal, to attack Rome in 218 B.C. And the march of the Germans on Italy in 102 B.C. Both attempts were repelled by a strong Rome - a pre-Empire Rome, even! And there were no attempts on Rome for centuries after that, because it was buffered by all its territories. But in the 5th century A.D., four tribes of barbarians were able to march through Gaul, and through Italy, to sack Rome. The rot had obviously set in a long time before.

    One point that could mark the beginning of the end is 286, when Emperor Theodosius I Diocletian decided to divide the Roman Empire into two administrative areas: a western and an eastern area. This was an admission that the Roman Empire was now too big to be ruled by one person or from one city. As if Roman politics weren't complicated enough, there were now four rulers: two senior Augusti and two junior Caesarae (one Augustus and one Caesar in each half of the empire). This just increased the in-fighting among the Roman elite, leading to the fall of the western half two centuries later.

    Then there's the British Empire which didn't end so much with a bang as a whimper. It just sort of faded out. In 1876, Queen Victoria was crowned Empress of India. Half a century later, in the 1920s, the British Empire ruled over a quarter of the world's population. By the end of the 20th century... there was no British Empire to speak of. But there was no single event to point to and say "that was the end of the British Empire". Some people point to the hand-over of Hong Kong back to China in 1997 as the end, but the British Empire hadn't truly existed for a long time before that. In the 1980s, many of its former colonies (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) severed their last constitutional ties to the UK. In the 1960s, its former colonies in Africa became independent. India, the jewel in the Empire's crown, had become independent in 1947. And all these can be traced back to World War II, which left Britain broke and severely damaged. But the roots of World War II can be traced back to World War I, which itself can be traced back to the rise of Germany in the late 1800s. So when did the British Empire end? We don't know.

    The point is that, while there might be a big event which marks the end of the American hegemony (I wouldn't describe it as an Empire), that event will only mark the end of a long process of deteriorating power. That process is happening right now, but it's hard to predict what will mark the end, and it's also tricky to agree on when it started.

    Did it start in 2001, with the terrorist attacks on American soil? America has floundered a bit since then. The current incumbent isn't the first U.S. President to go rogue - George W Bush flouted international law and the United Nations when he and his "Coalition of the Willing" (a whole three other countries!) invaded Afghanistan in 2003. And that invasion has been a massive failure. Every American military action in the Middle East since 2001 has demonstrated that the USA can't simply stamp its foot and get its way any more (if it ever could). Was 2001 the beginning of the end?

    Or was it 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell? That event was described at the time as "the end of history", when the forces of democracy and capitalism had finally outlasted all competitors. Except that it wasn't true. However, without a strong opponent like the USSR to define itself against, the USA has struggled to find its way.

    Was it the Fall of Saigon in 1975, when the U.S.-backed forces of South Vietnam finally lost the Vietnamese War?

    We don't really know.

    What will the end look like? I don't know that, either. But it has certainly already begun.

    11 votes
    1. [7]
      s4b3r6
      Link Parent
      I agree with a fair bit of what you're saying, but as for: Not really. Those are all Commonwealth Nations, which means the Queen is still their Head of State. (Except Canada, when Thatcher did...

      I agree with a fair bit of what you're saying, but as for:

      In the 1980s, many of its former colonies (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) severed their last constitutional ties to the UK.

      Not really. Those are all Commonwealth Nations, which means the Queen is still their Head of State. (Except Canada, when Thatcher did strip all constitutional powers from the Queen in 1982... But the others didn't.)

      The Queen's first mention is in Provision 2 of the Australian Constitution - the statement immediately following the title. She is a prominent figure throughout, and maintains powers such as the ability to appoint a new Governor-General without warning, and that 'the Queen's ships' are not subject to the constitution when headed to the Australian Commonwealth.

      The Governor-General has constitutional power, and used it to sack the Whitlam government in 1975. Those powers remain to this day.

      Changing any of that is a national referendum, and Australia doesn't have a strong history of those passing, though the Republican movement in Australia is strong.

      New Zealand has limited the powers of the Queen and her representative more than Australia has, with the Governor-General having fewer powers to act, however the Queen is still their head of state, and the Governor-General does have the power to sack the government in cases of constitutional crises.

      1. [3]
        Thales
        Link Parent
        This is very nitpicky, but I think the Queen technically remains the Head of State in Canada, at least according to the government's website. Though as you said, since the Constitution Act of 1982...

        This is very nitpicky, but I think the Queen technically remains the Head of State in Canada, at least according to the government's website. Though as you said, since the Constitution Act of 1982 she has not wielded any true power in Canada.

        I only mention this because it's a great way to switch the conversation to a more lighthearted topic any time people start going off about Canadian politics -- "Oh, you think Prime Minister X is in ruining the country? What about the Queen, she's the head of state after all!"


        By the way, @Algernon_Asimov, was it not Diocletian--as opposed to Theodosius--who divided the Empire into the Tetrarchy?

        3 votes
        1. [2]
          Algernon_Asimov
          Link Parent
          My expertise with regard to Rome is mainly focussed on the late Republic / early Empire period - from about 100 BC to about 14 AD. I know a bit about the subsequent Julio-Claudian period for the...

          My expertise with regard to Rome is mainly focussed on the late Republic / early Empire period - from about 100 BC to about 14 AD. I know a bit about the subsequent Julio-Claudian period for the next 50 years, but I'm aware only of the broad brushstrokes after that. So, while I knew the Empire had been divided into an eastern and western section under four rulers, I had to check who did it. I read the sentence "Theodosius I, the last emperor to rule over both East and West" in this Wikipedia article and deduced that it was him who split the empire. Sorry!

          1 vote
          1. Thales
            Link Parent
            The Late Empire had so many rulers it's inevitable that we mix them up (I do it all the time...).

            The Late Empire had so many rulers it's inevitable that we mix them up (I do it all the time...).

      2. [3]
        Algernon_Asimov
        Link Parent
        You're conflating our sharing the same monarch with there being links between our governments. The Queen of Australia is a different role than the Queen of the United Kingdom. The fact that these...

        You're conflating our sharing the same monarch with there being links between our governments.

        The Queen of Australia is a different role than the Queen of the United Kingdom. The fact that these two monarchs happen to be the same person is a courtesy, not a legal requirement. We Australians could change our own laws to move the monarchy to any other person we choose. We could anoint a King Bruce I of Australia tomorrow if we wanted. However, as a shared courtesy among some nations, we choose to share our monarch. But, the Crown in Australia is a different legal entity than the Crown in the United Kingdom. It's like how one person can be the CEO of two different companies. That doesn't mean the companies are linked, it just means the same person runs them both.

        Also, being a Commonwealth Nation has nothing to do with sharing Queen Elizabeth as a monarch. The majority of Commonwealth Nations are not monarchies. India set that example when it became a republic in 1947, but remained a member of the Commonwealth.

        1. [2]
          s4b3r6
          Link Parent
          The succession of the Crown, and to whom that would be, is guaranteed by the Constitution, so no, we could not.

          We could anoint a King Bruce I of Australia tomorrow if we wanted.

          The succession of the Crown, and to whom that would be, is guaranteed by the Constitution, so no, we could not.

          1. Algernon_Asimov
            Link Parent
            Not necessarily. Back in 2011, when Prince William was marrying the now-Duchess of Cambridge, the Commonwealth realms (all the countries who share Queen Elizabeth II as their head of state) got...

            Not necessarily.

            Back in 2011, when Prince William was marrying the now-Duchess of Cambridge, the Commonwealth realms (all the countries who share Queen Elizabeth II as their head of state) got together and decided to change the law of succession so that female offspring would be considered equally with male offspring (so if William's first child was a daughter, she would be next in line to the throne, rather than any younger brother). This was the Perth Agreement. Each country had to enact legislation of its own to do this. It was not sufficient for the United Kingdom Parliament to change its laws of succession: every other country's legislature had to do the same. Australia therefore has its own Succession to the Crown Act.

            The reason we all got together to agree this is because the preamble to the Statute of Westminster says:

            it would be in accord with the established constitutional position of all the members of the Commonwealth in relation to one another that any alteration in the law touching the Succession to the Throne or the Royal Style and Titles shall hereafter require the assent as well of the Parliaments of all the
            Dominions as of the Parliament of the United Kingdom

            In other words, we all have to agree to change the laws of succession.

            However, this preamble has no legal status. It's a convention, not a legal requirement. We can therefore change our own laws of succession to suit ourselves.

            While the constitution does refer to Queen Victoria's "heirs and successors in the sovereignty of the United Kingdom", this has to be taken in a wider context. And that wider context allows Australia to legislate its own succession to the Crown of Australia.

  4. KapteinB
    Link
    The day the US defaults on its debt. An exact date is impossible to predict, but I believe we've passed the point of no return. The national debt will keep increasing, year after year, and with it...

    The day the US defaults on its debt.

    An exact date is impossible to predict, but I believe we've passed the point of no return. The national debt will keep increasing, year after year, and with it the interest payments. Eventually the big credit rating agencies will downgrade the US debt, and interest rates will spike. That event will mark the beginning of an ever worsening debt spiral, until one dark day, the US government decides not to pay. That's the day historians will consider the end of the US Empire.

    So when will it be? Hard to say. I believe the credit rating downgrade will take most by surprise, and could be as soon as the next decade. Or maybe as late as the end of the century.

    The result will be a global financial crisis to rival the Great Depression. A scaling back of US military and diplomatic operations will erode its power and influence around the world. Mass unemployment will lead to increase in crime and civil unrest. Another demagogue might rise. States may try to secede in an attempt to escape the crushing debt. The US will never regain its former power and glory.

    This is all speculation of course, and it's more likely to be wrong than right. I just felt someone should mention the debt default scenario.

    4 votes
  5. [5]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [4]
      unknown user
      Link Parent
      Can you explain what giving statehood to Puerto Rico has to do with the end date of the American Empire, as being discussed?

      Can you explain what giving statehood to Puerto Rico has to do with the end date of the American Empire, as being discussed?

      2 votes
      1. [4]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [3]
          unknown user
          Link Parent
          Why is Puerto Rico any more of a "lesser" territory than Texas, Louisiana, or any other humanly-apportioned section of land?

          Why is Puerto Rico any more of a "lesser" territory than Texas, Louisiana, or any other humanly-apportioned section of land?

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            CALICO
            Link Parent
            We don't give them voting rights, is the big one that sticks out to me.

            We don't give them voting rights, is the big one that sticks out to me.

            10 votes
            1. unknown user
              Link Parent
              That's true, in the strict definition. My reading of @Kant's comments was that Puerto Rico was a "lesser" territory for more intrinsic reasons, rather than political or geographical reasons.

              That's true, in the strict definition. My reading of @Kant's comments was that Puerto Rico was a "lesser" territory for more intrinsic reasons, rather than political or geographical reasons.

  6. Triseult
    Link
    I think the watershed moment where the American Empire stops to exist is the day that NATO goes. Whatever happens next, the U.S. will no longer be in a position that it dictates international...

    I think the watershed moment where the American Empire stops to exist is the day that NATO goes. Whatever happens next, the U.S. will no longer be in a position that it dictates international geopolitics.

    The current POTUS is stepping on the accelerator down that slippery slope, but judging by the incredible amount of pushback he gets from his own Cabinet, I'm guessing this won't happen for a few decades yet. But I'm pretty sure historians will look back on this moment and describe it as a harbinger.

    2 votes
  7. BlackLedger
    Link
    There are really at least two questions bundled in this, I think. The first is the end date of the United States, and the second is the end date of the American Empire. The first I view as a more...

    There are really at least two questions bundled in this, I think.

    The first is the end date of the United States, and the second is the end date of the American Empire. The first I view as a more political question - the American Empire could well go on after the end of the United States, in the same sense that the Roman Empire went on well after the end of the Roman Republic. This would be some sort of major change/overhaul of the political system that could not have been accomplished legally under the framework of the original system. It would probably be dated based on a significant tipping point event (i.e. the president issues a decree dissolving/federalizing all the states and has all the governors arrested) or possibly based on the date a significant figure was elected or rose to power (i.e. General So and So was sworn in as some sort of emergency Commander-in-Chief on a particular date, for the duration of an emergency that never officially ended).

    The end of the American Empire might be the same date, but could also be different by several centuries. It would probably be dated based on a major territorial loss, particularly the loss of the capital, or territorial dissolution (i.e. various states come together through some political process and agree to dissolve, perhaps with some hold-outs ineffectually claiming to be the true successors).

    It's really difficult to, say, though. Going with some of your examples: in 1204 you have Constantinople captured by foreign invaders. Emperor Alexios V flees, is captured, and executed. There are three rump states all claiming to be the legitimate empire. But we don't date 1204 as the end of the Byzantine empire, because they manage to put together a successor polity that can credibly claim to be such, and lasts another two centuries.

    2 votes
  8. [2]
    Vulture
    Link
    Well...with Trump, but honestly it could be a couple decades after that. I think our grand leader is a turning point. I think that it will happen sooner in a hundred year span than later d/t tech...

    Well...with Trump, but honestly it could be a couple decades after that. I think our grand leader is a turning point. I think that it will happen sooner in a hundred year span than later d/t tech comm.

    "The ultimate “dirty old man,” Tiberius succeeded Augustus, Rome’s first emperor...,"(www.walksofitaly.com) .

    It is hard to predict because these times are different from 1000 years, or even 100 year ago. We've progressed so incredibly far, I think the turn-around for decline/revolution is fast approaching... so this is just an opinion...

    1. Algernon_Asimov
      Link Parent
      Yeah, but Tiberius isn't seen as the end of the Roman Empire - or even the beginning of the end.

      "The ultimate “dirty old man,” Tiberius succeeded Augustus, Rome’s first emperor...,"

      Yeah, but Tiberius isn't seen as the end of the Roman Empire - or even the beginning of the end.