17 votes

Topic deleted by author

11 comments

  1. [8]
    smeg
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    Was Tolkien personally racist or anti-semitic? No, he even refused to provide proof to Nazi Germany that he wasn't a jew, in order to publish there, as he found the whole thing despicable. Is the...

    Was Tolkien personally racist or anti-semitic? No, he even refused to provide proof to Nazi Germany that he wasn't a jew, in order to publish there, as he found the whole thing despicable.

    Is the world he created very analogous to a view of the real world that is highly imperialistic and racialized? Yes. Middle Earth's greatest kingdoms are established by a great race of people from the northwest, and although their kingdoms has dissipated and retracted, re-establishing them under a descendant from that northwestern race is the only way to keep back the demon-worshipping hordes from the east and south. In a letter, Tolkien even describes the Orcs as "Mongoloid" and uses other racial descriptors.

    You can imagine the British Empire at its peak, conquering and "civilizing" the hordes of the world, the one true beacon of enlightenment and freedom. And that's how the geography and races of Middle Earth are roughly structured.

    Literary theorists often link Tolkien's worldview to the Anglo-Saxonism that was in vogue around the turn of the 20th century, or to Nordic race theory - the idea that vikings and northern Germanic peoples established the strongest and truest of Europe's free kingdoms.

    It isn't that Tolkien was personally a racist, he very much was not. But he couldn't help but structure his fictional world with the same paradigms and views that were common among academics of his day.

    39 votes
    1. [3]
      jgb
      Link Parent
      However is it not fair to say that the Númenóreans were one of the most deeply flawed peoples in the whole of Tolkein's universe, being so afflicted by their various hubrises? They may have been...

      However is it not fair to say that the Númenóreans were one of the most deeply flawed peoples in the whole of Tolkein's universe, being so afflicted by their various hubrises? They may have been great in stature and longevity but on balance they hardly seem a master race moulded in the image of the racist myth of Nordic racial excellence.

      10 votes
      1. [2]
        smeg
        Link Parent
        That's a fair literary critique and a good emphasis on the nuance in the totality of Tolkien's collected works, but the overriding theme is how Númenóreans are the pique of epic human character,...

        That's a fair literary critique and a good emphasis on the nuance in the totality of Tolkien's collected works, but the overriding theme is how Númenóreans are the pique of epic human character, both positive and negative, and they are literally divinely gifted with this superior status.

        I don't think it's unfair to characterize LOTR (and maybe The Hobbit) as the core narrative and ultimately the final battle of good and evil, and the rest of the collected works are more background, broad histories, and incomplete vignettes. In that view, the Númenórean race rises to the occasion to reclaim its heritage, and though its strength and purity of character, vanquish evil once and for all, bringing about an era of global peace under its rule.

        7 votes
        1. jgb
          Link Parent
          It's fair to say that LOTR and The Hobbit are the core of Tolkein's universe as it exists to us in the written word. However the question posed in the OP is explicitly about Tolkein the man, so...

          It's fair to say that LOTR and The Hobbit are the core of Tolkein's universe as it exists to us in the written word. However the question posed in the OP is explicitly about Tolkein the man, so while we may fairly subscribe to such ideas as Death of the Author when it comes to analysis of the text, in probing into the character of the author himself it is necessary to account for the fact that LOTR and The Hobbit are only views into Tolkein's Universe as it existed within his mind, that being the truest place it ever did reside.

          I think it is hard to argue that Tolkein was not a racialist, as virtually every writer and scholar of his generation was, but to burden him with the heavy Cwstom of 'Racist' seems to me unfair. Even in the most damning quote that any in this thread have produced - his description of the Orcs as Mongoloid:

          The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.

          It is clear that his view is very much a relativistic one, leaving well open the possibility that the scholars of Almaty may fairly consider the Nordic people to exhibit the most unlovely of all phenotypes.

          7 votes
    2. [4]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      The Numenorian names and languages are all vaguely Arabic sounding though (and intentionally so). So I'm not sure the cultural parallels are all that starkly rendered.

      Yes. Middle Earth's greatest kingdoms are established by a great race of people from the northwest, and although their kingdoms has dissipated and retracted, re-establishing them under a descendant from that northwestern race is the only way to keep back the demon-worshipping hordes from the east and south.

      The Numenorian names and languages are all vaguely Arabic sounding though (and intentionally so). So I'm not sure the cultural parallels are all that starkly rendered.

      6 votes
      1. [4]
        Comment deleted by author
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        1. jgb
          Link Parent
          It's an awful long time since I've read LOTR but I think he's described as 'swarthy'.

          It's an awful long time since I've read LOTR but I think he's described as 'swarthy'.

          7 votes
        2. [2]
          NaraVara
          Link Parent
          It’s been a while since I read the series, but I recall “darkness” being used to characterize his mien more than his complexion.

          It’s been a while since I read the series, but I recall “darkness” being used to characterize his mien more than his complexion.

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            Comment deleted by author
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            1. NaraVara
              Link Parent
              IIRC there is one part when Gollum refers to the Easterlings as "horrible men with dark faces." The general description of the Haradrim is very evocative of Turkic or Sassanid armies, including...

              However he does connect the two deliberately in some cases; the Easterlings of Rhûn are described as both "dark" (in a context clearly referring to their character) and called the "Swarthy Men", though only in his personal notes (which were later published against his will).

              IIRC there is one part when Gollum refers to the Easterlings as "horrible men with dark faces." The general description of the Haradrim is very evocative of Turkic or Sassanid armies, including the fact that they ride elephants into battle. But also that's just kind of like, a primordial conflict in the history of Western civilization and Christendom going back to Herodotus.

              In a lot of ways, much of what we think of was Western civilization coalesced as a sort of "opposition" to the spread of Moorish and Ottoman empires. I don't think it's necessarily "racist" to obliquely reference a cultural memory like that if you're writing a mythopoetic history.

              4 votes
  2. jgb
    Link
    As far as I'm concerned this debate starts and ends with this brilliant letter to a German publisher asking for proof of his masterrace status. We seem to inhabit an age where even remarking that...

    As far as I'm concerned this debate starts and ends with this brilliant letter to a German publisher asking for proof of his masterrace status.

    We seem to inhabit an age where even remarking that there exists such a thing as Germanic culture can be branded as racist. Through such a lens, Tolkien's deep fascination with the folklore and tradition of European peoples may perhaps be... a lot to unpack. But I don't think there is an argument to be made that he is racist - especially when fairly judged by the standards of his time.

    9 votes
  3. ohyran
    Link
    He grew up in an inherently racist and antisemitic society - so probably a tad of one or perhaps a bit of both? You know Orchs, elves and all that from the classic human races ideals of the time...

    He grew up in an inherently racist and antisemitic society - so probably a tad of one or perhaps a bit of both? You know Orchs, elves and all that from the classic human races ideals of the time and the "eternal struggle" thing - but he wasn't uniquely so in any way.
    I mean he wasn't total Lovecraft or anything...

    4 votes