17 votes

Stop talking to each other and start buying things: Three decades of survival in the desert of social media

21 comments

  1. Omnicrola
    Link
    Starts out really ranty, but settles down (slightly) later on. Here's a few parts I particularly enjoyed: (emphasis mine)

    Starts out really ranty, but settles down (slightly) later on. Here's a few parts I particularly enjoyed:

    It’s all new and we have to figure it out. To agitate and legislate and be constantly vigilant. Maybe it’ll all seem so obvious and settled in 50 years, but those are our 50 years and no one else is going to have to be the first to have these conversations and try to make policy out of them. That’s us, it’s our lot, and it sucks ass, but this technology is the singularity we geeks have been talking about, and it turns out it’s not just impossible to imagine life on the other side of it before it happens, but it’s really fucking hard to figure out life on the other side of it once you get there, too. This is our actual Oregon Trail. We have to walk it on foot. We have to be the ones who fuck up and we have to be the ones who fix it. We have to be the ones who learn the lessons the hard way and write it all down so someday people get to just hop in a plane and sleep for five hours rather than die in the snow wrapped around our shivering children, praying for a dawn that is far too distant to help us now.

    And we’ve seen very clearly this year that even progress that seems obvious and settled 50 years down the track is always vulnerable to people who confuse the ignorance of their own childhoods with the absence of societal problems.

    (emphasis mine)

    9 votes
  2. [6]
    NaraVara
    (edited )
    Link
    That's not a full summary of the article. There are a lot of themes there. It's largely about the epicycles around how communities form online and then get taken over by finance people (and, more...

    Prodigy was upset that people were, by and large, using the free communication service they tossed on there just to have more content and not their weird Random Garbage You Don’t Need Storefront. And in many ways, that complaint has only gotten louder over the decades. Stop talking to each other and start buying things. Stop providing content for free and start paying us for the privilege. Stop shining sunlight on horrors and start advocating for more of them. Stop making communities and start weaponizing misinformation to benefit your betters.

    It’s the same. It’s always been the same. Stop benefitting from the internet, it’s not for you to enjoy, it’s for us to use to extract money from you. Stop finding beauty and connection in the world, loneliness is more profitable and easier to control.

    Stop being human. A mindless bot who makes regular purchases is all that’s really needed.

    That's not a full summary of the article. There are a lot of themes there. It's largely about the epicycles around how communities form online and then get taken over by finance people (and, more recently, authoritarian governments) and ruined. But also about how tiring it is to keep having to rebuild in their wake.

    6 votes
    1. [5]
      rosco
      Link Parent
      Woof, that's really heavy. I've never thought about it in such cut and dry terms. I think optimizing anything strictly for profit is a huge problem. I say this pretty much applies to any product,...

      Stop finding beauty and connection in the world, loneliness is more profitable and easier to control... A mindless bot who makes regular purchases is all that’s really needed.

      Woof, that's really heavy. I've never thought about it in such cut and dry terms.

      It's largely about the epicycles around how communities form online and then get taken over by finance people (and, more recently, authoritarian governments) and ruined.

      I think optimizing anything strictly for profit is a huge problem. I say this pretty much applies to any product, though it is much easier to do with technology. It's pretty much Oracle's whole business model.

      7 votes
      1. [4]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        We all need to eat to live. And food is legitimately fun to make and to eat. But if your entire life revolves around wolfing down food to impress everyone else with how much you can shove down...

        I think optimizing anything strictly for profit is a huge problem. I say this pretty much applies to any product, though it is much easier to do with technology. It's pretty much Oracle's whole business model.

        We all need to eat to live. And food is legitimately fun to make and to eat. But if your entire life revolves around wolfing down food to impress everyone else with how much you can shove down your gullet. . .

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          NaraVara
          Link Parent
          I just finished watching The Menu and it’s funny how on point it is with this comment I just made.

          I just finished watching The Menu and it’s funny how on point it is with this comment I just made.

          1 vote
          1. rosco
            Link Parent
            Weirdly I watched it last night as well. It's interesting just how much "eat the rich" content is coming out recently: The Menu, Triangle of Sadness, White Lotus, Squid Games, or even the new...

            Weirdly I watched it last night as well. It's interesting just how much "eat the rich" content is coming out recently: The Menu, Triangle of Sadness, White Lotus, Squid Games, or even the new Glass Onion. Looks like we're right on track for a 1900s repeat.

        2. rosco
          Link Parent
          Lol, great analogy.

          Lol, great analogy.

  3. geeklynad
    Link
    Dang that was a fantastic read. I'm around the same age and that sums up my feelings towards the matter of social media pretty nicely. Putting effort into building communities only to have them...

    Dang that was a fantastic read. I'm around the same age and that sums up my feelings towards the matter of social media pretty nicely. Putting effort into building communities only to have them crumble out from underneath you because the platform itself becomes unstable... over and over. It gets exasperating and tiring. There are quite a few people I have known who have helped shaped my life that I will likely never hear from again because it's hard to stay in touch with every single leaf that has been scattered to the wind.

    5 votes
  4. Akir
    Link
    This wouldn’t be a problem if people stopped relying on commercial services to build their communities on. There has always been a socially-owned, nonprofit, and open source option. I have always...

    This wouldn’t be a problem if people stopped relying on commercial services to build their communities on. There has always been a socially-owned, nonprofit, and open source option. I have always advocated for their use but this is something that nobody ever listens to me about. I’d tell people to forget their AIM and ICQ accounts and join me at Jabber. Hey, it even works with Google Talk now! While my AIM and Yahoo Messenger and MSN messenger accounts are all long gone, the last time I checked my original Jabber.org account still worked.

    And the thing is that these community-run communities have the tendency to stick around. Diaryland, whatever that is, is still here. The WELL is still here and it predates the internet. The community of Megazeux users still exists in spite of the author abandoning that program decades ago.

    What’s even crazier is that even the most right-wing friendly communities never get taken over by them. That’s because they actually enforce a set of sane community standards that punishes people who publish harmful things.

    One thing they do tend to have in common though is that they are community funded. So here’s an unsubtle reminder to make a donation to tildes.

    5 votes
  5. [12]
    skybrian
    Link
    The author makes a big deal out what we'd now call a "click-bait" headline for a newspaper article about Prodigy. They claim they've thought about this article weekly. Did they bother to figure...

    The author makes a big deal out what we'd now call a "click-bait" headline for a newspaper article about Prodigy. They claim they've thought about this article weekly. Did they bother to figure out which newspaper it was and maybe find the original article? Or learn about what Prodigy's business was, and what happened to it? Apparently not. It's a disappointing but sadly typical lack of curiosity.

    Like, all that matters is what they thought about it as a kid, not what was going on in the world.

    If you're curious, the Wikipedia article is more informative:

    Thanks to an aggressive media marketing campaign, bundling with various consumer-oriented computers such as IBM's PS/1 and PS/2, as well as various clones and Hayes modems, the Prodigy service soon had more than a million subscribers. To handle the traffic, Prodigy built a national network of POP (points of presence) sites that made local access numbers available for most homes in the US. This was a major factor in the expansion of the service since subscribers did not have to dial long-distance to access the service. The subscriber only paid for the local call (usually free), while Prodigy paid for the connection to its national data center in Yorktown, New York.

    Sounds expensive.

    Prodigy's initial business model relied more on advertising and online shopping for cash flow than monthly subscriptions. Subscribers were charged a flat monthly fee that provided unlimited access. Initially, a monthly rate was charged for unlimited usage time and 30 personal messages. Subscribers could purchase additional messages. Later, Prodigy divided its service into "Core" and "Plus" sections. Core section usage remained unlimited, but Plus sections were limited by usage time. Subscribers were given a monthly allotment of Plus time. If that time was exceeded, the subscriber incurred additional charges based on usage time. Subscribers could discern what type of section they were in by the blue indicator in the bottom-right corner of the screen.

    Prodigy's shopping applications initially underperformed relative to expectations. Reasons for difficulty in online shopping for Prodigy included the perception that online shoppers would pay a premium rather than expect discounts for merchandise. Another reason for poor online merchandising was the nature of the graphics presented due to inherent limitations of technology at the time. Using the early NAPLPS graphic standard, it was not possible to render realistic images of products. As such, while commercial clients with presence on the Prodigy Service might have realized a measure of success with an electronic order blank supporting a print catalog, it was otherwise difficult for online merchants to market products.

    [...]

    Two of Prodigy's most popular services turned out to be its message boards and email. Because Prodigy's business model depended on rapidly growing advertising and online shopping revenue, email was developed primarily to aid shopping, not for general communication between users, which is what it became. The message boards resulted in users being connected to the service far longer than projected. This resulted in higher than expected expenses, adversely affecting the service's cash flow and profitability.

    To control costs and raise revenue, Prodigy took two separate actions. First, in January 1991, Prodigy modified their basic subscriber plans by allowing only 30 email messages free each month, while charging 25 cents for each additional email message—a policy that was later rescinded. In the summer of 1993, it began charging hourly rates for several of its most popular features, including its most popular feature, the message boards. This policy was later rescinded after tens of thousands of members left the service.

    Some context: back then, everything in computing was more expensive, including networking (phone lines, modems, long distance calls) and computing (mainframes and minicomputers). For comparison, an early bulletin board service started by some California idealists called The Well charged $2 per hour back then, and some people would run up big bills chatting.

    There were also free bulletin boards run by hobbyists, but often with only one or two phone lines, and you would pay any long distance charges yourself. Sometimes they'd only be open at night so that the phone line could be used during the day.

    In retrospect, figuring out how to provide bulletin boards cheaply might have been a better business plan.

    3 votes
    1. [6]
      MimicSquid
      Link Parent
      That sounds like exactly what she was describing. The part that mattered to her was the loss leader, and when Prodigy couldn't make enough money off of people, it engaged in further monetization...

      That sounds like exactly what she was describing. The part that mattered to her was the loss leader, and when Prodigy couldn't make enough money off of people, it engaged in further monetization efforts and then shuttered it.

      Also, does it matter that there was a practical business reason behind it? There was a system she loved, that made her life better, and for prurient reasons outside of her control it was killed. And this pattern has repeatedly been borne out.

      That she didn't specifically talk about that article in more detail doesn't imply a lack of curiosity to me; she framed it accurately and sufficiently for her thesis.

      9 votes
      1. [5]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        I think it's okay to not want to get into it, but not to then assume malice like she's spinning it. When, say, a restaurant you liked goes out of business, we don't assume it was because they were...

        I think it's okay to not want to get into it, but not to then assume malice like she's spinning it.

        When, say, a restaurant you liked goes out of business, we don't assume it was because they were too greedy. We assume they tried to make money and failed because business is hard and that there's probably more to it that we don't know. Maybe they screwed up badly? Maybe some people involved did villainous things? But we can't tell their stories without learning the specifics about how it happened.

        5 votes
        1. [4]
          MimicSquid
          Link Parent
          I mean, there's a few well documented examples of malice which, in the absence of clear internal documents coming to light in all the other cases, makes it hard to differentiate between...

          I mean, there's a few well documented examples of malice which, in the absence of clear internal documents coming to light in all the other cases, makes it hard to differentiate between indifference or incompetence leading to the closing or dissolution of a community and malice leading to exactly the same end. Yes, yes, Hanlon's Razor, but with evidence that our public squares are sometimes overthrown by powerful forces in the process of serving their own ends, I don't see why an assumption of malice is inappropriate? A local restaurant can't enable the overthrow of governments, so there's a lot less necessary skepticism when one fails.

          5 votes
          1. [2]
            skybrian
            Link Parent
            By "overthrow of governments" are you referring to Arab Spring?

            By "overthrow of governments" are you referring to Arab Spring?

            1. MimicSquid
              Link Parent
              As well as the efforts of people elsewhere to organize for change, even when it's not so dramatic.

              As well as the efforts of people elsewhere to organize for change, even when it's not so dramatic.

              1 vote
          2. skybrian
            Link Parent
            I think saying you don’t know what happened is fine when you haven’t looked into what happened. Keeps you humble. (-ish). And you can avoid investigating anything you don’t feel like investigating.

            I think saying you don’t know what happened is fine when you haven’t looked into what happened. Keeps you humble. (-ish). And you can avoid investigating anything you don’t feel like investigating.

    2. [5]
      geeklynad
      Link Parent
      I don't think she's citing that headline as a primary example of a business model gone wrong. Frame it a different way. She saw it when she was, what, 12? Mentioned that it made a big impact....

      I don't think she's citing that headline as a primary example of a business model gone wrong.

      Frame it a different way. She saw it when she was, what, 12? Mentioned that it made a big impact. Memories like that can stick in your mind for a long time, detached from external events. They float around, touching on other experiences, reinforcing themselves through repetition.

      It wasn't the content of the article, but rather just that notion described by the headline that she reiterates throughout.

      I have a similar memory from a similar age. The line, "There's always someone better" has stuck with me. I think it was originally in the context of martial arts, but I have no idea who said it regarding what exactly. It doesn't matter to me. Because I've found that to be so ubiquitous. I've gleaned a lot of insight through the repetition of that line over my life, and even though I'll probably never bother finding out the original context for it, it doesn't change the insights that I've had regarding it.

      4 votes
      1. [4]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        I am pretty sure this was from a Batman: The Animated Series episode where a young Bruce Wayne is learning karate alongside a rival and their master is warning Bruce's rival about the folly of...

        The line, "There's always someone better" has stuck with me.

        I am pretty sure this was from a Batman: The Animated Series episode where a young Bruce Wayne is learning karate alongside a rival and their master is warning Bruce's rival about the folly of pride.

        Edit: Indeed! Go to timestamp 3:46
        https://youtu.be/TCTsumZ_gbQ

        1. [2]
          sharpstick
          Link Parent
          I think this is a common phrase used when teaching martial arts. It was one of the first things that was taught to me when I briefly took a martial arts class in the mid 80's. It was used as a...

          I think this is a common phrase used when teaching martial arts. It was one of the first things that was taught to me when I briefly took a martial arts class in the mid 80's. It was used as a caution against getting too cocky about our new skills.

          3 votes
          1. geeklynad
            Link Parent
            Ok that makes sense. So not so much from a single source as it is a general bit of wisdom. I've found that it's not only useful for keeping myself in check from being cocky, but also for relieving...

            Ok that makes sense. So not so much from a single source as it is a general bit of wisdom. I've found that it's not only useful for keeping myself in check from being cocky, but also for relieving the self imposed expectation of trying to be the best at something. It has also been a useful bit of insight into other people's various motivations.

            Little bits like that which just float around in my head and become repeating themes kind of evolve into lenses through which to analyze the world around me.

        2. geeklynad
          Link Parent
          lol that's hilarious. I mean I know for certain was my stepdad that originally burned it into my mind. I just don't know where he got it. He was in muy thai for a long time, and when he mentions...

          lol that's hilarious. I mean I know for certain was my stepdad that originally burned it into my mind. I just don't know where he got it. He was in muy thai for a long time, and when he mentions that it's in that context. But it would definitely be hilarious if he saw me watching that, heard that line, and figured it was a good enough quote.