67 votes

Any Tildeans who have lived in China or Russia and the West? What were the differences in the daily lives of average people?

edit: It's been a surprisingly active thread in a way I hadn't expected. Thank you everyone for the light debate, and I'm sorry if any of this was a source of discomfort. The internet has historically been a safe place to find out things that would be difficult to ask in person even if you know who to ask, and I appreciate the fact-checking, reality-checking, what-have-you that comes with that.


Things like:

  • What things felt free to do and not free to do? Was that a quality of law or society? (e.g., freedom of speech, gay relationships, zoning, running a business, jaywalking, etc.)
  • Trust or reliability in government
  • Educational quality
  • Relationship to the media
  • What luxuries people tended to have (e.g. modern imported gaming consoles, domestically produced products, number of cars, etc.)

Posting from America here. As the great power politics seems to have heated up these past 3-10 years, it feels like the environment has become more polarized as well. Eventually I started to ask myself what exactly I was supporting or opposing philosophically, in wanting my country to have the largest influence. The measures I came up with were not things that my own country did well on, and often felt like things I couldn't get the most accurate picture on without Russian or Chinese language acquisition. I happened upon a BBC article about new Chinese graduates I guess going through what millennials did in 2008, and found the general similarity of it interesting.

70 comments

  1. [25]
    stu2b50
    (edited )
    Link
    I've lived in mainland China before, AMA. The main thing is that it's really not all that different. I think, ironically, people greatly overestimate the competency of the CCP. It's not like...

    I've lived in mainland China before, AMA.

    The main thing is that it's really not all that different. I think, ironically, people greatly overestimate the competency of the CCP. It's not like they're the eye of sauron. It's just a bunch of old men, as usual. Plenty of people say things criticizing the government on WeChat and whatnot, and it's fine. Of course, the more that escalates beyond "random people whinging on the internet", the more there's potential for proper retribution, but it's not like you get gulag'd.

    I never went to school or had children go to school, but afaik the education is good, if not a bit brutal. It's pretty normal for K-12 to have 10-12 hours of schooling when you add in extracurriculars.

    TV is definitely state owned, and probably the most distinctly different. That being said, like everywhere the amount of people who watch TV diminishes greatly.

    Luxuries - there's pretty much everything. The main difference is that there's chinese versions of practically everything, and they do work well, in China. Big brands are all there, and you can certainly import anything else.


    Something that have changed recently that people may not have known, is how quiet and clean some of the major cities have become. Much of that is because EVs have an insane adoption rate, from actual cars to scooters. Shanghai is infinitely quieter than NYC, and the smog is no longer particularly noticeable.

    For a regular citizen, I don't think there's all that much that you'd want to do, that you can't do. Apart from vote for the head of government.

    60 votes
    1. [15]
      vord
      Link Parent
      Which is no strange thing in America either. Become prominent enough of a dissident and you get a doorknock or two. Most of us get by with criticising our system because we're doing little more...

      Of course, the more that escalates beyond "random people whinging on the internet", the more there's potential for proper retribution, but it's not like you get gulag'd.

      Which is no strange thing in America either. Become prominent enough of a dissident and you get a doorknock or two. Most of us get by with criticising our system because we're doing little more than whining on the internet.

      34 votes
      1. [8]
        R3qn65
        Link Parent
        Please don't compare government respression of free speech in the PRC with government repression of free speech in America. Sure, it happens in both places, but the scale and tenor is so different...

        Please don't compare government respression of free speech in the PRC with government repression of free speech in America. Sure, it happens in both places, but the scale and tenor is so different that there's no further comparison.

        31 votes
        1. [6]
          Muffin
          Link Parent
          Can you explain the difference? America spies on their citizens, tortures people, topples goverments etc.

          Can you explain the difference? America spies on their citizens, tortures people, topples goverments etc.

          16 votes
          1. [5]
            R3qn65
            Link Parent
            America has done all of those things, yes - but the fundamental difference is that America has gotten in trouble on all of those occasions, and the government has been held to account by the...

            America has done all of those things, yes - but the fundamental difference is that America has gotten in trouble on all of those occasions, and the government has been held to account by the legislature and the people.

            When Snowden leaked classified information on the NSA's activity, the journalists who reported on it weren't arrested. Their stories weren't censored. The ACLU hosted livestreamed interviews with him and petitioned President Obama to pardon him. Yes, the government went after Snowden, but they are trying to arrest him so that he can be tried by a jury - not disappeared to a gulag without being able to defend himself.

            In China, it's illegal to discuss Tiananmen Square. Search engines won't report results on it. History books don't cover it. By law, no opposition political party is allowed to run for election.

            No country is perfect, and all countries do bad things. What matters is whether the people are able to openly criticize their governments and hold them accountable for their actions. That's what makes America great: not because it never does terrible things, but because freedom of the press and freedom of speech are enshrined in the highest law.

            45 votes
            1. [4]
              vord
              Link Parent
              The World Press Freedom Index shows that while the USA is better than say China/Russia, it's not nearly as good as most of Europe. The journalists might be protected by law, but that doesn't stop...

              The World Press Freedom Index shows that while the USA is better than say China/Russia, it's not nearly as good as most of Europe.

              The journalists might be protected by law, but that doesn't stop police from beating journalists with batons.

              And because of the way our law is structured, the censorship is quite heavyhanded, but the tactics are different. The important stuff is drowned in a flood of bullshit. Important stories are buried while trivialities are boosted. Disinformation floods the airwaves.

              And while the government doesn't own the press, the billionaires who bribe the politicians do. Thus the nature of what deserves censoring is quite different.

              A few days ago a comic writer resigned from the WaPo because their boss killed a comic mildly critical of billionaires.

              24 votes
              1. R3qn65
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                Please criticize America - as I wrote above, criticism and accountability are important for the system to work as it should. Again, though, I can't agree with tacit comparisons to China. As an...

                Please criticize America - as I wrote above, criticism and accountability are important for the system to work as it should. Again, though, I can't agree with tacit comparisons to China. As an example:

                And while the government doesn't own the press, the billionaires who bribe the politicians do. Thus the nature of what deserves censoring is quite different.

                This isn't wrong, per se, but it belies the nature of what true press censorship actually looks like; it's the comparison, not the criticism, that I take umbrage with.

                The Jacobin is an American publication. A few months ago they published a headline calling the USA a "dying empire led by bad people." (It's the kind of headline that stays with you.) Here's why I bring it up. Corporate "censorship" (for lack of a better term) of the press is bad. Chomsky wrote about this extensively in Manufacturing Consent, and... pretty much all the rest of his oeuvre. But you can always start a new countervailing voice. If you think the NYT isn't doing a good job holding the powers to account, there's nobody stopping you from launching the Jacobin and calling the leaders of the US terrible people.

                Whereas in China, you would be arrested for writing that.

                Corporate influence over the press is bad, but actual government censorship is much, much worse, and they shouldn't be discussed together.

                24 votes
              2. fuzzy
                Link Parent
                That's the entirety of their point. The US has a lot of problems, but the level of repression in the US and China is not really comparable. My family fled a repressive country to come to the US...

                The World Press Freedom Index shows that while the USA is better than say China/Russia

                That's the entirety of their point. The US has a lot of problems, but the level of repression in the US and China is not really comparable.

                My family fled a repressive country to come to the US and I find it frustrating when people on the internet who are (rightfully) criticizing the US try to flatten both the issues in the US and the issues in much more repressive regimes into being the same. They're not. Not yet, at least.

                13 votes
              3. updawg
                Link Parent
                Not to express an opinion on the accuracy of those results one way or the other, but do note that these quantitative measures of qualitative attributes are always totally subjective and are...

                The World Press Freedom Index shows that while the USA is better than say China/Russia, it's not nearly as good as most of Europe.

                Not to express an opinion on the accuracy of those results one way or the other, but do note that these quantitative measures of qualitative attributes are always totally subjective and are subject to tons of bias in how they are created and how they are conducted. For example:

                • Who they ask (perhaps MSM vs grassroots organizations struggling to stay afloat)

                • What they ask (want to make one country look good/bad? Ask/don't ask a specific question)

                • How they translate what they ask (perhaps one language has the same word for "authorities" and "leaders" so the questions lose the context of if you're talking about the government or the company)

                • Cultural context that changes how questions will be interpreted (e.g., "how difficult is it to start a private media company in light of x?" Well, if it's always hard to start a company in one country, you might score it extremely difficult even though a media outlet might be the easiest type of company to create or perhaps private media is typically a non-profit instead)

                • Cultural differences in how people respond to surveys (e.g., in America, we have a tendency to review things with extreme scores and we consider 100% to be an achievable score, whereas in France, a 20/20 is basically reserved for God because only he can answer a question perfectly)

                • Weighting of responses (why is one question considered equally important to another?)

                • The fact that they often just measure perception rather than reality (questionnaires asking people to rate from 1-10 rather than objective measures)

                Etc.

                8 votes
        2. [2]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. R3qn65
            Link Parent
            Senator Bob Menendez was just convicted for accepting bribes and a congressman from Texas was arrested and charged for the same not too long before that. I don't mean this in a bad way, but it is...

            I can't imagine anyone even getting arrested [for bribery] in America.

            Senator Bob Menendez was just convicted for accepting bribes and a congressman from Texas was arrested and charged for the same not too long before that.

            I don't mean this in a bad way, but it is troubling that you feel that one wouldn't even get arrested for accepting bribes in America - just looking at the facts, that is far from true.

            (I'd also suggest that the death penalty meted out for China probably has a lot more to do with political maneuvering than justice or a serious desire to stop corruption, but that's just me.)

            12 votes
      2. [6]
        updawg
        Link Parent
        What are you even talking about? Is Kamala Harris going to get FBI agents stopping by her house to silence her once Trump takes over?

        What are you even talking about? Is Kamala Harris going to get FBI agents stopping by her house to silence her once Trump takes over?

        19 votes
        1. vord
          Link Parent
          Remember Martin Luther King Jr? Stalked by the FBI. The Most Wanted CEO guy had police knocking on his door. FBI surveiled BLM Occupy movements nationwide were treated as terrorists despite no...

          Remember Martin Luther King Jr? Stalked by the FBI.

          The Most Wanted CEO guy had police knocking on his door.

          FBI surveiled BLM

          Occupy movements nationwide were treated as terrorists despite no violence.

          More FBI profiling of protesters back in 2004.

          This isn't even scratching the surface.

          And Trump is being handed a legal framework that would let him just straight up murder someone as part of his inauguration speech.

          33 votes
        2. [3]
          Promonk
          Link Parent
          Possibly, but if not, I think that speaks more to the relative lack of threat that Harris poses to established power than anything. It's always possible she gets targeted as a scapegoat, but she...

          Possibly, but if not, I think that speaks more to the relative lack of threat that Harris poses to established power than anything. It's always possible she gets targeted as a scapegoat, but she was never as big a target of the Hate Machine as are the Clintons or Biden. If she does get specifically targeted it'll be more because Trumpists have seen success in demonizing Democrats generally rather than because she herself represents a threat.

          6 votes
          1. [2]
            updawg
            Link Parent
            But keep in mind that this is in comparison to China. An opposition leader would disappear long before getting her kind of profile there.

            But keep in mind that this is in comparison to China. An opposition leader would disappear long before getting her kind of profile there.

            9 votes
            1. Promonk
              Link Parent
              Laying aside the whole apples and oranges aspect, I think it depends on what kind of opposition leader we're talking about. It's not an unheard of idea for authoritarian regimes to keep defanged...

              Laying aside the whole apples and oranges aspect, I think it depends on what kind of opposition leader we're talking about. It's not an unheard of idea for authoritarian regimes to keep defanged opposition parties around simply as a form of pressure release for popular discontent. In such systems opposition leaders are safe and comfortable as long as they don't meaningfully oppose the ruling regime's agenda. I'd argue that our current duopoly essentially functions that way by mutual consent.

              Part of my concern is that the current Republican programme is an attempt to shift the balance of power to them holding indefinite ruling power with the Democrats holding the role of a powerless loyal opposition. This is part of why I've been so critical of the Democrats' conservatism when it comes to systemic reforms of the electoral process. The disproportionate representational power of the Senate and Electoral College is the means by which the GOP is attempting this coup, and the lack of attention by Democrats on this subject is the source of my harshest criticisms of them. (I've recently been a bit vocal on this subject here on Tildes, so it's on my mind.)

              8 votes
    2. smoontjes
      Link Parent
      I watched a segment on Chinese cars not too long ago. They were at a trade fair and they said that China has like 100 EV brands so yeah, figures! As for the rest.. yeah, humans no matter the...

      EVs have an insane adoption rate

      I watched a segment on Chinese cars not too long ago. They were at a trade fair and they said that China has like 100 EV brands so yeah, figures!

      As for the rest.. yeah, humans no matter the country are a lot more alike than we are led to believe.

      13 votes
    3. Plik
      Link Parent
      Can confirm all of this. I would say overall in decent cities, being middle class+, and as long as you aren't a specific minority, China is a better place to live than the US. Health insurance is...

      Can confirm all of this.

      I would say overall in decent cities, being middle class+, and as long as you aren't a specific minority, China is a better place to live than the US. Health insurance is cheaper, and you can often pay for small things out of pocket. Transportation is also super easy between trains, metro, and Didi (Chinese Uber).

      Village life and poverty looks pretty awful though, but you don't see it so much in large cities.

      Overall I'd say much of Asia just feels more creative/evolving, perhaps with quite a few rough edges. The US is just kinda...boring but also with rough edges.

      9 votes
    4. [6]
      artvandelay
      Link Parent
      This tracks with what I've heard from other Americans who have lived in China too. Day to day, your life isn't going to be too different. I'd assume quality of life in the national central cities...

      This tracks with what I've heard from other Americans who have lived in China too. Day to day, your life isn't going to be too different. I'd assume quality of life in the national central cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Chongqing etc. would be about as good as any other big city in the west like London or New York City.

      6 votes
      1. [2]
        stu2b50
        Link Parent
        Well, subjective cultural elements aside, living in NYC right now, I'd say that it's much better than NYC. The infrastructure is unimaginably better in Shanghai, the streets are much cleaner, and...

        would be about as good as any other big city in the west like London or New York City.

        Well, subjective cultural elements aside, living in NYC right now, I'd say that it's much better than NYC. The infrastructure is unimaginably better in Shanghai, the streets are much cleaner, and overall it's far safer. The floor for food is much higher - NYC has good food, some of the best food in the world, but you're going to pay a pretty penny. There's just generally more order, more amenities, for less money, even adjusted for PPP.

        20 votes
        1. sparksbet
          Link Parent
          I visited Shanghai for study abroad back in 2017, and I still miss their metro system (second only to how much I miss the food). It puts even pretty robust European metro systems to shame.

          I visited Shanghai for study abroad back in 2017, and I still miss their metro system (second only to how much I miss the food). It puts even pretty robust European metro systems to shame.

          9 votes
      2. [3]
        Plik
        Link Parent
        Honestly better, because you don't need a 500k+ USD yearly salary to live comfortably in a Chinese city.

        Honestly better, because you don't need a 500k+ USD yearly salary to live comfortably in a Chinese city.

        7 votes
        1. skybrian
          Link Parent
          There is no US city where you need that much.

          There is no US city where you need that much.

          13 votes
        2. bret
          Link Parent
          What city do you need 500k USD to live comfortably in?

          What city do you need 500k USD to live comfortably in?

          6 votes
    5. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. stu2b50
        Link Parent
        Depends on what you mean. Certainly, if Xi wants to have a post removed, it will be removed. But that kind of high level scrutiny is somewhat rare. One misconception people from America often have...

        One example that came to mind for me was that if the White House asks Twitter to say, not allow certain posts to trend, then Twitter can make the decision to do so.

        Depends on what you mean. Certainly, if Xi wants to have a post removed, it will be removed. But that kind of high level scrutiny is somewhat rare.

        One misconception people from America often have is that the CCP is some kind of unified bloc; it's actually insanely bloated, and is full of infighting. Rarely does the "CCP" agree on anything. The owners of big tech companies themselves are powerful people in the CCP, and they would rather their services not be touched.

        All that being siad, I certainly would rather be a journalist, or the owner of a tech company in the US. I wasn't there for the Jack Ma incident, and I don't particularly know more about now that the dust settled and he reappeared.

        It then makes me wonder what the real trade offs are between government and citizen lifestyle.

        I mean, having said all that, I don't particularly think the CCP is helping. More, that the mode of governance, in the end, at a high level doesn't really come up all that often for the lives of people - as long as it's not super dysfunctional, and at this point I don't think the CCP is. Things do work.

        26 votes
  2. [23]
    fxgn
    Link
    I currently live in Russia. I was born here and always lived here, although I've traveled a lot and consume mostly foreign media, so I can compare somewhat. Keep in mind though that I live in...

    I currently live in Russia. I was born here and always lived here, although I've traveled a lot and consume mostly foreign media, so I can compare somewhat. Keep in mind though that I live in Moscow, which differs significantly from the less affluent parts of the country (to the point where there's a popular Russian saying "Moscow is not Russia"), so perhaps my experiences wouldn't be applicable to an average Russian citizen who lives outside of Moscow and surrounding area.

    I agree with @stu2b50's main point. It's not really that different.

    What things felt free to do and not free to do? Was that a quality of law or society? (e.g., freedom of speech, gay relationships, zoning, running a business, jaywalking, etc.)

    Like yeah, obviously there's less freedom than in a typical western democracy, but that isn't really something that affects a regular person. There's no free speech protection and the government can go after you for opposing it - but they generally don't care. If you're not a public political figure with a large following, nothing will happen to you for posting anti-government sentiment online like I'm doing right now.

    In day to day life, it's even less noticeable. The country isn't some sort of antiutopian dictatorship with cameras and policemen on every corner. It's just a country. Regulations and tax codes are pretty much what you would expect from a regular country, except the government is more corrupt and less competent, so it doesn't get much useful stuff done.

    Queer people are pretty much the only group of people who are significantly affected in their day to day lives. Being gay or trans is technically not illegal, but the "LGBT movement", whatever that is, is considered extremist, so most queer people I know prefer not to show their identity publicly.

    Trust or reliability in government

    As I said, the government is pretty corrupt and inefficient, so I don't really trust in it. The mayor of Moscow is actually pretty cool and genuinely improves the city, but that's just an exception, and he's still a corrupt pro-war friend of Putin.

    IMO the biggest issue with this is that it often results in a feeling that you shouldn't even try. For example the country has ecological problems, but it's not really worth it advocating for better policies because the government won't care anyway.

    Educational quality

    I'm currently a senior high school student in a good private school, so I can't speak from my own experience, but I have many friends who attend public schools.

    If we're talking about academic quality, as in the pure level of information taught, it's pretty high. Russian school programs are definitely much more advanced than American ones. But everything else kinda sucks due to the same reason: corruption and lack of funding. Teachers are underpaid so they don't really give a shit, schools sometimes have a pretty toxic environment, poor equipment quality, etc. This really depends on the school though - some public schools are much better than others

    As for higher education, Russia is pretty good in that regard. There are still a lot of outdated educational practices, but more and more universities move away from them and offer a high level of modern education on par with top European universities (see for example the HSE University)

    Relationship to the media

    In the past few years there has been a huge shift among Gen Z and Millennials towards Telegram channels as the primary form of media. People often talk about what role WeChat plays in the lives of Chinese citizens, and Telegram is becoming more and more important for Russian people everyday (although unlike WeChat it achieved that by fair competition and not by government monopoly).

    There is a healthy mix of pro-Putin and anti-Putin media. The anti-Putin media is getting censored, but since it's all moving to Telegram which the government has no control over, it can't just be outright banned. The main censorship method used by the government is the "foreign agent" legislative. Basically any media that the government doesn't like is recognized as a "foreign agent" and faces some strict limitations, which often prevent it from getting sufficient funding.

    What luxuries people tended to have (e.g. modern imported gaming consoles, domestically produced products, number of cars, etc.)

    Again, I live in Moscow, so the experience may be very different from the rest of Russia. But we generally have everything that people in other countries have. It all became more expensive after the war due to sanctions, but it's still here - it's just shipped from countries who don't impose sanctions against us, like Turkey. In some areas, there are many domestic alternatives, some better, some worse, just like in any other country.

    I also wrote a comment on this topic a while ago here:

    https://tildes.net/~society/1gct/the_west_doesnt_understand_how_much_russia_has_changed#comment-crtn

    And another one about Russian IT companies in that same thread:

    https://tildes.net/~society/1gct/the_west_doesnt_understand_how_much_russia_has_changed#comment-crv2


    Feel free to ask any other questions if you have them, I'll always be glad to answer!

    37 votes
    1. [20]
      vord
      Link Parent
      I got a chuckle out of this, because in America, we have cameras in every public space, and most front doors. Almost all cops have handguns at their sides and assault rifles and shotguns in their...

      The country isn't some sort of antiutopian dictatorship with cameras and policemen on every corner.

      I got a chuckle out of this, because in America, we have cameras in every public space, and most front doors. Almost all cops have handguns at their sides and assault rifles and shotguns in their cars. There is more military gear in local police stations than ever before..

      I live in a town with approximately 3 traffic lights. Our police department has about 20 cops. There is one permanently posted at each of the schools.

      19 votes
      1. [8]
        updawg
        Link Parent
        And I always think it's funny each time I go to the Euroest Euro country (France) and get shocked by the police all just walking around carrying MP5s. It's interesting how our perceptions (both...

        And I always think it's funny each time I go to the Euroest Euro country (France) and get shocked by the police all just walking around carrying MP5s. It's interesting how our perceptions (both from afar and up close) compare to reality. Like, you go to France expecting guns to be non-existent, then find out that you're going to see more firepower in a day than you have in your whole life in the US, then realize that that's about half the guns within 50 miles and all the others are locked up in clubs. Perception vs perception of reality vs reality, essentially.

        19 votes
        1. [5]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [2]
            GreasyGoose
            Link Parent
            I found that amusing recently in Paris (particularly around Versailles) where there tended to be teams of 3 casually walking around “patrolling”, eg shooting the shit. Berets, full kit but just...

            I found that amusing recently in Paris (particularly around Versailles) where there tended to be teams of 3 casually walking around “patrolling”, eg shooting the shit.

            Berets, full kit but just cradling M4s with magazines and obviously just getting through the day. Most tourists, including myself, ignored them, since it seemed normal.

            America, weapons aren’t visible despite the number of them to citizens, but do something funky and suddenly you have backup of 20 officers in tactical gear up your ass.

            4 votes
            1. RobotOverlord525
              Link Parent
              I saw the same thing when I went to Rome back in 2016. It was definitely surprising, as an American. One of them even forced me to delete a video I recorded on my phone of the Metro.

              I saw the same thing when I went to Rome back in 2016. It was definitely surprising, as an American. One of them even forced me to delete a video I recorded on my phone of the Metro.

              3 votes
          2. [2]
            updawg
            Link Parent
            I'm pretty sure the majority of the gendarmerie are really just engaged in everyday rural policing.

            I'm pretty sure the majority of the gendarmerie are really just engaged in everyday rural policing.

            3 votes
        2. [2]
          Weldawadyathink
          Link Parent
          I’ve been living in France for a few months, and yeah it is super weird how militarized the police are. I saw more assault rifles in the last two weeks traveling France than I have in my entire...

          I’ve been living in France for a few months, and yeah it is super weird how militarized the police are. I saw more assault rifles in the last two weeks traveling France than I have in my entire life living in the US (to be fair, it was liberal California). That being said, there are also bicycle cops here which is fantastic. Not every law enforcement officer should be militarized to the same extent.

          6 votes
          1. GreasyGoose
            Link Parent
            Frankly, as someone who has served, I trust the discipline, ROE, and training of military vs police forces. To be clear, I don’t advocate for the police to be militarized. However, since...

            Frankly, as someone who has served, I trust the discipline, ROE, and training of military vs police forces.

            To be clear, I don’t advocate for the police to be militarized. However, since departments across the US aren’t standardized and anyone can join, the quality of people you get is much lower.

            The shit you see on body cam videos (begrudgingly at that) released would not fly.

            4 votes
        3. stu2b50
          Link Parent
          That reminds me of a difference between being in China and the US or Western Europe. Ironically, since mainland China is arguably a police state, but the day-to-day police presence is much less...

          That reminds me of a difference between being in China and the US or Western Europe. Ironically, since mainland China is arguably a police state, but the day-to-day police presence is much less alarming.

          Your average traffic cop is like this skeletal 60 year old man who was 5’6 but now is 5’3 with worse posture, definitely no gun, maybe a baton but usually nothing at all.

          4 votes
      2. [11]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        Is this a political issue in your town?

        Is this a political issue in your town?

        1 vote
        1. [10]
          vord
          Link Parent
          Oh no. Most of the town loves it. Related, my town is 99% white and affluent. 60/40 Republican. I have a lot of problems with this town.

          Oh no. Most of the town loves it.

          Related, my town is 99% white and affluent. 60/40 Republican.

          I have a lot of problems with this town.

          1. [9]
            skybrian
            Link Parent
            In many US communities, there is deep distrust of law enforcement, often for good reason. It seems like a bad thing. It sounds like that’s not a problem where you are?

            In many US communities, there is deep distrust of law enforcement, often for good reason. It seems like a bad thing. It sounds like that’s not a problem where you are?

            1 vote
            1. [8]
              norb
              Link Parent
              Not OP but replying to give my perspective. Policing in the US has a sordid racial history. I think, in general, most white people have a more trusting relationship with police versus minorities....

              Not OP but replying to give my perspective.

              Policing in the US has a sordid racial history. I think, in general, most white people have a more trusting relationship with police versus minorities. This goes up as you climb the economic ladder as well (for both whites and minorities) - the more well off you are (or appear) the easier time you will have with police in this country. I recently read The World Walk and Tom has two countries he talks about run-ins with the police. One is the USA (at least two encounters with police), the other (if I'm remembering correctly) was Turkey (where he had a police escort for his entire time walking through the country). I thought it was a pretty stark, if not explicit, comment on our culture.

              Personally, as a middle-class straight white guy, I have had very few "bad" interactions with police, but I would not go out of my way to involve them in something unless it was really necessary. Calling police in this country can end up with an innocent person being killed and that would temper my desire to call them for anything but the most extreme cases (say someone actively shooting a gun vs someone breaking into a car).

              7 votes
              1. [3]
                skybrian
                Link Parent
                Absolutely, I think anyone who’s been paying attention is at least somewhat aware of how that works. But I think we should be hoping that police relations with minorities improve, rather than...

                Absolutely, I think anyone who’s been paying attention is at least somewhat aware of how that works. But I think we should be hoping that police relations with minorities improve, rather than thinking of the relatively good relationships some white communities have as a bad thing?

                3 votes
                1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  This started with an issue about the military equipment. You're not going to improve relationships with overpoliced minority communities with "show of force" style equipment. That appeals only to...

                  This started with an issue about the military equipment. You're not going to improve relationships with overpoliced minority communities with "show of force" style equipment. That appeals only to people who never even suspect that equipment would be used on them.

                  Militarizing the police is a huge mistake IMO.

                  3 votes
                2. norb
                  Link Parent
                  I mean, of course that is what any empathetic person would hope for. Policing should be applied equally to all, and should 100% not result in the death of innocents with any regularity....

                  But I think we should be hoping that police relations with minorities improve, rather than thinking of the relatively good relationships some white communities have as a bad thing?

                  I mean, of course that is what any empathetic person would hope for. Policing should be applied equally to all, and should 100% not result in the death of innocents with any regularity. Unfortunately, we have none of that in the US. And what you are describing is "well at least the white people are happy so that's nice." Which, fine, but you're just looking right over the systemic issues we have as a society.

                  Again, not OP so can't really speak for their comment "I have a lot of problems with this town" BUT for myself I can completely understand their sentiment. I look around small towns or well off areas and people are blissfully unaware that their lived experience is not the same as everyone else. Many people are unable or unwilling to examine our society with a critical eye and realize that the system is gamed in their favor. I can understand that instinct though, as many of them are struggling in their own ways and anything they have "earned" has been "deserved" and not due to any systemic imbalance in their favor. This same argument gets trotted out to deny that the US is a racist society, when it seems to me to be clearly favored towards straight, white, Christians.

                  To me, the inequality is a part of the class war that we've been in ... well for a long time (maybe all the way back to the founding, but definitely entrenched during the post Civil War reconstruction period). It is somewhat intentional and very insidiously hidden. Then we have built up a national mythos around this being the best, most fair country where hard work and only hard work will get you ahead, and if you're ahead you clearly are the morally superior and deserved person. It absolutely cannot be due to any kind of advantage you may have had.

                  So all that said, I find it rather hard to see any of the good in "well at least the well off white people have a good relationship with the police in their town" when those same police are one of the main enforcers of the current imbalance of power in this country.

                  Sorry, did not mean to get so negative in response to your somewhat lighthearted comment but this kind of stuff has been bothering me for awhile now and you gave me the opportunity to vent. Please do not take any of this as an attack on you for making a comment.

                  2 votes
              2. [4]
                vord
                Link Parent
                You explained it better than I could. The (majority) of white people in town are thrilled. But there is a reason that town is so white, and that's no small part of it. They've got the black...

                You explained it better than I could. The (majority) of white people in town are thrilled. But there is a reason that town is so white, and that's no small part of it.

                They've got the black humvee, do the DUI checkpoints on the main road every Friday, and respond in seconds to any homeless black pedestrian troublemakers.

                2 votes
                1. [3]
                  DefinitelyNotAFae
                  Link Parent
                  My personal "this irks me" about police vehicles is the Matte Black marking on Gloss Black cars. They're technically "marked cars" but they're very much not, especially with the interior lights...

                  My personal "this irks me" about police vehicles is the Matte Black marking on Gloss Black cars. They're technically "marked cars" but they're very much not, especially with the interior lights instead of the bar on the top. One of the cities near me actually has this same thing in matte white on gloss white, it looks like a refurbished police vehicle where the stickers have been pulled of and left a residue. Nope, a full police car.

                  There is zero need for the departments to do that except to try to catch more speeders. They have undercover cars for the work that needs it. Guess if they get more speeders they can buy a humvee or something.

                  3 votes
                  1. [2]
                    updawg
                    Link Parent
                    But the black on black is totally cool and they totally would have worn that kind of stuff if they'd gone into the special forces, which is what they were really wanting to do, but they wouldn't...

                    But the black on black is totally cool and they totally would have worn that kind of stuff if they'd gone into the special forces, which is what they were really wanting to do, but they wouldn't have been able to make it through basic training because obviously they would have just punched anybody in the face who yelled at them. So now they're cops.

                    2 votes
                    1. vord
                      Link Parent
                      Or the reverse: the vet to cop pipeline is huge.

                      Or the reverse: the vet to cop pipeline is huge.

                      1 vote
    2. [2]
      skybrian
      Link Parent
      Do you worry about getting drafted?

      Do you worry about getting drafted?

      13 votes
      1. fxgn
        Link Parent
        I personally don't, for a few reasons: There aren't really that many forced drafts any more. There was a big wave two years ago, but now there are enough people from poor cities who're willing to...

        I personally don't, for a few reasons:

        • There aren't really that many forced drafts any more. There was a big wave two years ago, but now there are enough people from poor cities who're willing to voluntarily enroll, because solider compensation starts at $2000/month which for many people is like 5x their salary
        • Moscow citizens usually aren't drafted anyway, since they're the only ones with some protesting power, so it's easier for the government to just leave them alone and draft people from small cities
        • Mandatory army service only applies to people who don't attend a university, and I have that sorted out, I'll probably study abroad, but even if I don't, I have direct acceptance to a few Russian unis
        • Army services are as corrupt as the other parts of the government, so in the worst case, you can just bribe them to avoid the army

        With that being sad, drafts are still obviously a concern for many people

        17 votes
  3. [22]
    Lobachevsky
    Link
    I've lived in Russia well into my adulthood, currently residing in Sweden. So the differences from fxgn's reply would be: I'm older (lived through a different Russia as well), I've lived in...

    I've lived in Russia well into my adulthood, currently residing in Sweden. So the differences from fxgn's reply would be: I'm older (lived through a different Russia as well), I've lived in different, smaller cities, as well as big ones, and I've lived in EU as opposed to just visiting. Also, this post isn't necessarily factually accurate and mostly represents my personal experiences and knowledge generalized to some degree.

    At first, I'm gonna mention that modern (post-soviet) Russia has been very different throughout its existence. 1990s were in general an extremely tough time, with poverty, scams, organized (and not really) crime, lack of basic goods, corrupt and unregulated dealings. This era also gave rise to oligarchs (friends of powerful people buying up huge industries) and of course Putin (the guy who at least in public perception lifted the country out of this). Then there were (broadly) 2000s characterized by increased wealth and liberal values. I'm gonna label 2010s as the increase in state power, gradual limitations of freedoms, with 2020s being the ruinous culmination. These are broad strokes but this is how I see having experienced most of it.

    What things felt free to do and not free to do? Was that a quality of law or society? (e.g., freedom of speech, gay relationships, zoning, running a business, jaywalking, etc.)

    Only in recent years has there been any real limitation of freedoms and most people don't really experience it. It mostly has to do with limits on protesting and internet censorship. You may also be unlucky and be one of the people to be made an example of (these are your Navalny's and random kids who posted something online). But for most of the modern history and (very importantly) further away from big cities, the freedoms you have are actually higher than in EU. For example, it's difficult to own a house in Sweden (instead in most cases you buy a permission to live in it and can be forced to sell it under certain conditions). Taxation is MUCH higher. Hard to find a driving instructor among your friends. Things like that. Part of it is due to being an immigrant, but the reality is that if you go to a small village, you will almost have no laws at all, except for something like murder. Essentially go far enough and you can actually build yourself your own libertarian safe haven. It's just a really really really large country and thus impossible to police in its entirety.

    Now, in big cities things are more tight, but the system is also corrupt and there's a whole cultural mentality around the understanding that you can buy your way out of most anything. The bribes to pass a driving test for example aren't even hidden, they're basically part of the system and are collected openly by driving schools.

    So basically if you don't visit weird websites (well I guess nowadays they're really pushing the internet censorship angle) and protest against the government, you may never notice any government interference at all. I think for business owners it's much different though, or basically anyone getting any kind of power or money - they probably have to deal with the aforementioned corruption or even the risk that some of their business will be taken over. But I have no experience in this.

    Trust or reliability in government

    Again, highly depends on where you are and who you are. You can find crazy libertarians who will defend their porch with a shotgun (or at least say they will) and you can find a grandma who prays for Putin every night while living on scraps. Both have their reasons to exist. The services range from excellent in big cities to awful/non-existent in rural ones. In particular healthcare if you earn an okay paycheck is just better in big cities than in Sweden in my opinion. Lots of Russians and Ukranians living in EU go home for "medical tourism" because it's just much cheaper and high quality. Dental especially is prohibitively expensive (hundreds of euro for basic cavities) in Sweden unless you're a kid in which case it's free. Russia also has free government sponsored healthcare (including dental) and a range of private clinics for faster/sometimes better care, combining both options in a very good way in my opinion.

    Anyway, you should notice by now the trend of bigger cities = more government oversight but better infrastructures and services, smaller settlements = the opposite. The salaries and prices are also much different. The country is just damn large municipal governments are generally lacking in resources and get away with more skimming off the top.

    Educational quality

    Once again, it HIGHLY depends. I've been through several schools and they range from kids in 11th grade being unable to do basic math (not exaggerating btw) to high schoolers having university grade teachers and smashing records. In general it's really easy to get SOME kind of university degree, without even really doing anything. Or pay your way through university. It all depends on where, who, how much money is involved, how much do teachers give a crap. Money will get you private tutors, better schools or just easier time in general. Bigger cities aren't necessarily better, though they will have better opportunities to find something better.

    Relationship to the media

    Not sure what you mean. Older people watch TV, younger people use runet (any website with .ru domain and in Russian) of their preferred choice. Some people use the internet outside of that, provided they speak English. Certain services like youtube, instagram or tinder are/were quite popular at least until they get banned (which is a very recent phenomenon).

    What luxuries people tended to have (e.g. modern imported gaming consoles, domestically produced products, number of cars, etc.)

    As the country was coming out of the 90s, people started to have everything that westerners did, just with some delay as the amount of wealth caught up. Middle class and above can have just about everything, poorer ones can be limited to something like an old TV and a radio. I don't think it's common to have more than one car unless you're doing well for yourself, or you live in a rural area where you need it (and then it's a very old Russian/Soviet car). Again and again, you'll see a range of just about anything depending on class, wealth, location.

    In general though, if not for the (overall fairly recent all things considered) government overreach, Russia would honestly be a fantastic place to live for many in my opinion. It pains me to see it go down this way, but I guess at some point it was inevitable. I will also add that a life of an immigrant adds a lot of pain and restrictions in almost any aspect of life. I thus completely understand the people who stay in Russia and simply make the best life possible there. I got somewhat lucky and I still hate living in EU sometimes. I personally most definitely have fewer freedoms currently than I did in Russia, which is counter-intuitive, but the reality is that being an immigrant just kind of sucks, even being a high-skilled immigrant with a cushy job lined up. Can't imagine what more desperate folks have to go through.

    The main benefit of EU that I personally enjoy is the ability to cross borders freely (though I have limits on that) and the mix of different people and cultures that comes from that. It was awesome how I could meet students from all over the place, and those are the moments I really wish I grew up in this environment. As an adult, I find that most opportunities that Europe provides for you are already just... gone.

    31 votes
    1. sparksbet
      Link Parent
      This is extremely true and something that I think people who haven't experienced it really don't understand.

      I will also add that a life of an immigrant adds a lot of pain and restrictions in almost any aspect of life.

      This is extremely true and something that I think people who haven't experienced it really don't understand.

      14 votes
    2. kjw
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      What about some serious conditions? E.g. somebody who has autoimmune or some other chronic disease such as SM or diabetes type 1? How good or bad is the public healthcare regarding such serious...

      In particular healthcare if you earn an okay paycheck is just better in big cities than in Sweden in my opinion. Lots of Russians and Ukranians living in EU go home for "medical tourism" because it's just much cheaper and high quality.

      What about some serious conditions? E.g. somebody who has autoimmune or some other chronic disease such as SM or diabetes type 1? How good or bad is the public healthcare regarding such serious conditions?

      4 votes
    3. [20]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. [19]
        Lobachevsky
        Link Parent
        I personally never paid a bribe and actually never got a driver's license partially for that reason (it's not that you cannot do it without paying, but it was a factor for me). Now I regret that,...

        Does bribery feel "unjust?" Or did you go into most situations thinking, "okay, they're probably expect a bribe of X rubles", you paid, and then everything went fast after?

        I personally never paid a bribe and actually never got a driver's license partially for that reason (it's not that you cannot do it without paying, but it was a factor for me). Now I regret that, because getting one in Sweden is extremely expensive. In that sense what is more unjust in your opinion, normalized bribery where some officials pocket the money or government taxing the crap out of you legally for which you end up paying way more? I guess it is just that I overpay for everything and that money goes to someone else who ostensibly needs it more, but at the end of the day my quality of life suffers because of it and that doesn't feel just at all. But rationally speaking, in the case of a bribe the money is going into someone's pocket vs being spent on something useful like infrastructure, so in the end corruption isn't the way.

        I appreciate any and all information I get on living there! It's very interesting. I also only want people to share with they're comfortable with. On this question, though, I was curious if people look at the media and trust it. Or if people assume the media is not honest and don't bother.

        Lots of people do blindly trust the mainstream media, but me and my circle basically stopped paying attention years ago, since it's all entirely propagandized. Otherwise people pick their flavor of alternative media, basically like everywhere else.

        If I may ask, what are these restrictions? And is a lot of it made specific to those from Russia? I work with a lot of foreign nationals in my industry. I assume it's quite tough for them, but I also have only a limited understanding of it.

        Oh don't get me started on restrictions specific to Russian citizens. My parents lost their pension savings due to their investments being frozen, I basically had to start from 0 after moving because it's not possible to safely and legally transfer significant sums of money - the banks just won't take it. Some of my peers got lucky and managed to use some loopholes through "friendlier" countries in time, but I'm stuck with all my livelihood trapped in Russia, being devalued and facing uncertain future. I'm very lucky I have a secured job in EU, but this also means my financial life got reset close to my 30s. By the way, none of this is at all helpful in winning the war or whatever, it's just forcing me to pay extra taxes in Russia and keep a significant part of my devaluing wealth there. It's just nonsensical politics that nobody will touch now for years as far as I'm concerned. I'm also lucky that Sweden is chill on political side of things - my friend living and working in Czech Republic for almost 5 years wasn't too thrilled about news of denying dual citizenship specifically to Russian citizens...

        Then there's regular immigrant stuff like being unable to freely move around, having a hard time finding housing, having a hard time socially, wives and husbands being unable to find jobs, casual racism in the job market, being unable to see family, etc, etc.

        7 votes
        1. [17]
          Malle
          Link Parent
          Can you expand on what you mean by this?

          Then there's regular immigrant stuff like being unable to freely move around

          Can you expand on what you mean by this?

          1 vote
          1. [16]
            Lobachevsky
            Link Parent
            When you have a work permit, you have minimum residency requirements. Meaning if you spend too much time outside of the country, you risk being refused an extension.

            When you have a work permit, you have minimum residency requirements. Meaning if you spend too much time outside of the country, you risk being refused an extension.

            2 votes
            1. [6]
              sparksbet
              Link Parent
              Not just work permits -- this is true of anything other than citizenship here in Germany. Even if you have permanent residence, your residence permit expires if you leave the country for six...

              Not just work permits -- this is true of anything other than citizenship here in Germany. Even if you have permanent residence, your residence permit expires if you leave the country for six months or more. I think some specific residence permits like Blue Cards have different limits on how much time you can spend outside Germany, but none of them are unlimited.

              3 votes
              1. [5]
                Malle
                Link Parent
                For context, with a permanent residence permit in Sweden you can be abroad for up to a year and keep the permit, or up to two years if you give notice to the migration agency ahead of time. I'm...

                For context, with a permanent residence permit in Sweden you can be abroad for up to a year and keep the permit, or up to two years if you give notice to the migration agency ahead of time. I'm not sure how long you have to live in Sweden again before you can live abroad again and keep the permit.

                1. [4]
                  sparksbet
                  Link Parent
                  Regardless of how specifically lenient or strict the timeline is, the fact that there's any such restriction at all is a restriction placed on your life that citizens don't have.

                  Regardless of how specifically lenient or strict the timeline is, the fact that there's any such restriction at all is a restriction placed on your life that citizens don't have.

                  1 vote
                  1. [3]
                    Malle
                    Link Parent
                    Of course a restriction is a restriction however lenient, but pragmatically there's definitely a gradation to it. If it in two different countries were 2 days compared to 2 decades, one would be...

                    Of course a restriction is a restriction however lenient, but pragmatically there's definitely a gradation to it. If it in two different countries were 2 days compared to 2 decades, one would be extremely restrictive and the other barely worth thinking about. In a discussion on how restrictions affect immigrants, I think it's worth not losing that nuance.

                    2 votes
                    1. [2]
                      sparksbet
                      Link Parent
                      I think such discussions can be worthwhile when discussing what the policies should be, but in response to an initial question that was just curious about whether restrictions on travel for...

                      I think such discussions can be worthwhile when discussing what the policies should be, but in response to an initial question that was just curious about whether restrictions on travel for immigrants exist at all, it's not strictly relevant, at least not when the limits are around the usual size like this.

                      1 vote
                      1. Malle
                        Link Parent
                        I mean we're in the part of the conversation where I asked if they could expand on how they couldn't move around freely, so I definitely think it's relevant since that's what I was asking about?

                        I mean we're in the part of the conversation where I asked if they could expand on how they couldn't move around freely, so I definitely think it's relevant since that's what I was asking about?

                        1 vote
            2. [9]
              Malle
              Link Parent
              Thank you, I asked because I genuinely didn't know. Looking into the specifics you mention here I may very well be wrong, but as far as I can tell this is no longer the case for just work permits...

              Thank you, I asked because I genuinely didn't know. Looking into the specifics you mention here I may very well be wrong, but as far as I can tell this is no longer the case for just work permits in Sweden?

              Used to be work permits were only allowed for a maximum of 4 years, after which you could / had to apply for permanent residence. For that application, too much time spent abroad during that time, generally 4 months, was grounds to reject the permanent residency.

              Changes to the law came into effect in 2023 and there's no longer a restriction on how long one may renew work permits, and for work permits there are no minimum residency requirements.

              What is tangentially required is that you are employed and you can't be absent from work for too long except for some acceptable reasons. Possibly this also connects to the new laws about minimum wages for approved permits, but I couldn't find straight-forward information on that, or on whether it includes or excludes any absences.

              Are any other inter­rup­tions besides sick­ness and parental leave accep­table?

              It is possible to have certain interruptions in your employment that are not due to parental leave or sick leave. Some examples include a leave of absence from your work (e.g. a holiday), or travel to your country of origin. In your application, indicate whether you have been absent from your work and why.

              Am I still able to get an extended work permit even if I cannot get a perma­nent resi­dence permit?

              If you cannot or do not want to get a permanent residence permit after four years, you may receive a work permit for another two years if the requirements for an extended permit are met.

              I have had a work permit for four years but have only been in Sweden and working for the last two years. Can I get a new work permit?

              Yes, you can get a new work permit if the conditions for an extended work permit are met.

              https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Working-in-Sweden/Frequently-asked-questions-about-work-permits.html

              1. [8]
                sparksbet
                Link Parent
                Sweden may revoke your temporary residence permit if you're outside Sweden for one year (two years if it's a permanent residence permit). If you have permanent residence you can apply to keep...

                Sweden may revoke your temporary residence permit if you're outside Sweden for one year (two years if it's a permanent residence permit). If you have permanent residence you can apply to keep permanent residence apparently, but this is still a limitation on immigrants that doesn't apply to citizens.

                1 vote
                1. [6]
                  Malle
                  Link Parent
                  Thank you, I somehow missed that a work permit was not sufficient and a temporary residency permit is also required, at least for people who are not citizens of an EU/EEA country.

                  Thank you, I somehow missed that a work permit was not sufficient and a temporary residency permit is also required, at least for people who are not citizens of an EU/EEA country.

                  1. [5]
                    sparksbet
                    Link Parent
                    Work permits are a subset of temporary residence permits, from my interpretation of the text and experience with other countries with similar policies.

                    Work permits are a subset of temporary residence permits, from my interpretation of the text and experience with other countries with similar policies.

                    1. [4]
                      Malle
                      Link Parent
                      They are apparently two separate things in Sweden. Going to the source, in the Aliens Act (Utlänningslagen) there's two separate sections dealing with work permits and residency permits. The...

                      They are apparently two separate things in Sweden. Going to the source, in the Aliens Act (Utlänningslagen) there's two separate sections dealing with work permits and residency permits.

                      The language also makes it clear, for instance:

                      Arbetstillstånd får ges till en utlänning som har tidsbegränsat uppehållstillstånd,

                      My translation:

                      Work permits may be granted to foreigners who have temporary residency permits

                      1. [3]
                        sparksbet
                        Link Parent
                        "Work permits may be granted to those with temporary residence permits" is not something that conflicts with my statement afaik, permission to work is something that is granted to a subset of...

                        "Work permits may be granted to those with temporary residence permits" is not something that conflicts with my statement afaik, permission to work is something that is granted to a subset of people with temporary residence permits.

                        1. [2]
                          Malle
                          Link Parent
                          Residence permits (uppehållstillstånd) and work permits (arbetstillstånd) as defined by the Aliens act. In Swedish, of course. See also 2 chapter 7 § speaking of the special case of "combined work...

                          Residence permits (uppehållstillstånd) and work permits (arbetstillstånd) as defined by the Aliens act. In Swedish, of course. See also 2 chapter 7 § speaking of the special case of "combined work and residence permits" (my translation). Specifically, someone staying less than 3 months may under some circumstances need only a work permit and a visa, no residence permit.

                          1. sparksbet
                            Link Parent
                            Seems like a jargon that's very specific to Sweden then. Fair enough.

                            Seems like a jargon that's very specific to Sweden then. Fair enough.

                2. Malle
                  Link Parent
                  I took you at your word but actually reading the page, that's not what it says about temporary residence permits? So for temporary residence permits, which are only at most 2 years long before you...

                  I took you at your word but actually reading the page, that's not what it says about temporary residence permits?

                  Travel­ling from Sweden with a tempo­rary resi­dence permit

                  If you have a temporary residence permit, you may travel in and out of the country during the time your permit is valid, but you must have a valid passport to leave Sweden, and your residence permit card to return.

                  So for temporary residence permits, which are only at most 2 years long before you need to renew them, you do not need to be in Sweden at all.

                  If you have a permanent residence permit, then yes, you can live abroad for up to two years before you need to return to live in Sweden in order to keep your permit.

                  It's a permit for permanent residence, not a permanent permit for residence.

        2. skybrian
          Link Parent
          Do you know anyone who uses cryptocurrency to get around such restrictions?

          Do you know anyone who uses cryptocurrency to get around such restrictions?