29 votes

Growing-ups: Living with your parents, single and with no clear career. Is this a failure to grow up or a whole new stage of life?

25 comments

  1. [8]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [7]
      patience_limited
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I ran into a fair amount of this early on, growing up in the industrial U.S. Midwest - aging parents (my folks were in the earliest wave of people who didn't have kids until their 40's), local...

      I ran into a fair amount of this early on, growing up in the industrial U.S. Midwest - aging parents (my folks were in the earliest wave of people who didn't have kids until their 40's), local economic collapse, entry-level job shortage, outrageous housing expenses...

      My family wasn't broke, but my continuing to live in the midst of economic misery was expected, so that I'd be around to take care of them.

      In terms of the surrounding cultural expectations, though, it was previously unheard-of that young adults wouldn't be able to get basic factory jobs that could sustain an age-18 launch into full economic self-sufficiency. There was huge family tension between my internalized expectation of independence, and the unspoken familial quid-pro-quo of "we'll always support you, if you'll always take care of us".

      That's why I was so skeptical about my fellow manager's narrative, and willing to grant that the current cohort of young adults is being blamed for factors which are not their fault. Most of the younger adults of my acquaintance are much more aware, psychologically self-sufficient, capable of building their own support networks, and involved in action to change their circumstances, than my generation was.

      Narratives that try to classify or shame an entire generation as deficient in grit are deeply suspect as propaganda, since they serve the class interests of the 'haves' rather than the bottom 90%. I hate to throw a class-based thesis in here, but one of the oldest methods by which the few maintain social control over the many is to keep the masses as fractionated as possible - how better than by pitting each generation against its successors?

      6 votes
      1. [6]
        zoec
        Link Parent
        There's some kind of parallelism with the Chinese experience. My family is self-sufficient and largely equivalent to the "middle-class" elsewhere. The parents were professionals before their...

        There's some kind of parallelism with the Chinese experience.

        My family is self-sufficient and largely equivalent to the "middle-class" elsewhere. The parents were professionals before their retirement, having worked for the state, and they have savings and pensions. When they were 20-somethings, they got their golden tickets of university-level education. They were brainy people. There were way too many open jobs than eligible young graduates, and a job was guaranteed by the state -- the catch is that you couldn't choose which one you'd apply to. There was no such thing. It was the assigned job, otherwise you'd be on your own.

        Housing was provided by the state. Health coverages. A significant chunk of life concerns were taken care of since the beginning.

        And times shifted, and by the time we were semiadults, it was all about dirt-value university diplomas, frantic job hunting, freelance, frequent movement -- all things we took for granted but quite alien to them.

        5 votes
        1. [5]
          patience_limited
          Link Parent
          I don't know what's worse - an uncontrolled market transition within the space of a generation, where you suddenly have to compete with 1.3 billion other people in a supposedly "meritocratic"...

          I don't know what's worse - an uncontrolled market transition within the space of a generation, where you suddenly have to compete with 1.3 billion other people in a supposedly "meritocratic" system with zero support; or a party-loyalty system where you're rewarded for being a member of the truest believers and your whole family may be severely punished for any lapse.

          In both systems, the consequences of error are catastrophic.

          3 votes
          1. [4]
            zoec
            Link Parent
            These extremes are, well, extremes. But one of them certainly can crash down on some people at some points of their lives. What happened has been a shift of weighing factors. The latter used to be...

            These extremes are, well, extremes. But one of them certainly can crash down on some people at some points of their lives. What happened has been a shift of weighing factors. The latter used to be more tangible a problem for many, and the former is now a closer reality.

            I often describe China as a composition of the worst aspects of the USA and the USSR. Of course when I say this I'm projecting a lot of what's really in me, rather than depicting what's "out there", but the two are related.

            In many ways, it does look like a big corporation. Perhaps the closest thing to the ultimate ideal of corporationhood. Small wonder that accelerationists are infatuated with China.

            3 votes
            1. [3]
              patience_limited
              Link Parent
              I'm sorry to hear it, and hope that you're well away from that country. As to the worst aspects of the US (neo-feudalism) and USSR (20th century Orwellian totalitarianism), it seems like the party...

              I'm sorry to hear it, and hope that you're well away from that country. As to the worst aspects of the US (neo-feudalism) and USSR (20th century Orwellian totalitarianism), it seems like the party is really just trying to establish Totalitarianism 2.0 for the benefit of a re-established imperial elite class.

              Accelerationists assume that catastrophes can always be managed, that they don't break the systems used for repair.

              2 votes
              1. [2]
                zoec
                Link Parent
                Thank you for listening, @patience_limited. For one thing, I'm right in the thick of it. And the question about being "away from [this] country" is of course "Where to?" As I read into the world,...

                Thank you for listening, @patience_limited. For one thing, I'm right in the thick of it. And the question about being "away from [this] country" is of course "Where to?"

                As I read into the world, I see global authoritarianism ascendant and adamant. A stark detail: authoritarian politicians from the EU got out of their way to perform their eagerness in validating Cambodia's manifestly rigged election (also, Cambodia is heavily influenced by China, as mentioned in the article). This used to be unthinkable, not that the Euro-authoritarians couldn't have possibly done this sort of stunt; it's that the authoritarians used to be less connected and more about the domestic agitation-oppression cycles.

                The pessimist in me sees a dark age coming. The optimist in me thinks escaping is futile and resistance is the valid way of being.

                And back to the topic of generational inequality and division. My parents used to be like this: If you cared about whatever you said you care in your little head, you had to hardwork your way to the United States (or some other free country, whether they know anything about it or not). If you didn't end up a citizen of the free world, it would be your fault, the result of your defective moral character. I don't think they'd considered in concrete terms which actions they could do to support their vision for me, or what it would mean for me, where my needs would enter the picture. The logic always went like this: You must become X (some object of their frustrated desire and longing), and you're on your own. For look, we've done so much for you and given you everything. If you can't or won't, it proves that you're a lazy self-defeater, just as we've predicted from day one.

                1. patience_limited
                  Link Parent
                  I'd have to agree about the authoritarian trend and the difficulty of escape. But sometimes you have to leave to survive, let alone resist effectively. One of the problems in intergenerational...

                  I'd have to agree about the authoritarian trend and the difficulty of escape. But sometimes you have to leave to survive, let alone resist effectively.

                  One of the problems in intergenerational relationships is that parents are always "fighting the last war" - they advise and direct their children on the basis of the obstacles they had to overcome, not necessarily the ones the current generation is facing. Sure, some of the advice and criticism is universal, but when the world has changed fundamentally, when the old roads to success are no longer open, it's fine to ignore that advice and seek other solutions.

                  1 vote
  2. [13]
    patience_limited
    Link
    At a dinner yesterday, I was treated to a rant from a fellow manager about "millennials", complaining that they're not invested in hard work because they can always fall back on their parents to...

    At a dinner yesterday, I was treated to a rant from a fellow manager about "millennials", complaining that they're not invested in hard work because they can always fall back on their parents to take care of them. Even though there's a young member of my team who's got some issues to address, I've attributed any deficits to him as an individual, not to his generation; I've met plenty of stellar, got-their-sh*t-together millennials who are far more mature than I was at the same age.

    Serendipitously, this article arrived in my mailbox today.

    It's focused on the generally positive psychological profiles of current 19 - 29 year-olds (heavily represented on Tildes). There's absolutely nothing that justifies a more negative view of the current crop of youth, when measuring against the same cohort in prior generations.

    The article's explanations fall somewhat short on the economic front. While there's mention of supporting higher education, there's no data on the vast investments required for higher education and housing, versus the dreadfully low pay for starter jobs.

    So here's the "ask" of the younger members of the Tildes audience:

    Is there a specific way in which your elders treat or talk about you, that makes you unhappy? That encourages and supports you?
    What would you like to see prior generations do to support you better, emotionally, financially or otherwise?

    9 votes
    1. [6]
      Eugene
      Link Parent
      I think a lot of advice that people give each others on "how to deal with millennials" or "how to manage millennials" is treating us like we're an alien species that have to be studied and...

      What would you like to see prior generations do to support you better, emotionally, financially, or otherwise?

      I think a lot of advice that people give each others on "how to deal with millennials" or "how to manage millennials" is treating us like we're an alien species that have to be studied and understood, instead of realizing that we're exactly[citation needed] the same as every other generation, just using different language. The fact that x% of millennials are living with their parents or y% aren't going through traditional colleges or etc isn't because humanity has evolved. It's just a reaction to what is practical given what the world is like.

      So the things you can do to support millenials are the same things you can do to support yourselves, you just have to put yourself in our shoes instead of trying to form a simulation of us, if that makes sense. Because we're still the same.

      10 votes
      1. patience_limited
        Link Parent
        That's kind of what I figured, but it's always handy to ask instead of relying on an admittedly narrow sample.

        That's kind of what I figured, but it's always handy to ask instead of relying on an admittedly narrow sample.

        4 votes
      2. [4]
        neu
        Link Parent
        What do you mean by different language in this context? As in we really more heavily on digital communication? Or as if we are speaking a different language like an alien species?

        instead of realizing that we're exactly[citation needed] the same as every other generation, just using different language.

        What do you mean by different language in this context? As in we really more heavily on digital communication? Or as if we are speaking a different language like an alien species?

        2 votes
        1. [3]
          Eugene
          Link Parent
          No I just mean we use words like lit and dank lol.

          No I just mean we use words like lit and dank lol.

          5 votes
          1. neu
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Ah, okay. That makes sense. That didn't distract from the point of your post but I just could've seen that bit going a few different ways and was curious. EDIT: I can't stop laughing at that...

            Ah, okay. That makes sense. That didn't distract from the point of your post but I just could've seen that bit going a few different ways and was curious.

            EDIT: I can't stop laughing at that explanation.

            3 votes
          2. patience_limited
            Link Parent
            Yeah, I just had to look up "yeet" yesterday. The words change, but the underlying memetics and lived experiences remain the same. Us oldsters can succumb to cognitive fatigue if we try to keep...

            Yeah, I just had to look up "yeet" yesterday. The words change, but the underlying memetics and lived experiences remain the same.

            Us oldsters can succumb to cognitive fatigue if we try to keep up-to-the-minute. There's an increasingly vast information stream that much of the current population didn't grow up with, and that gap of the unknown can be frightening in itself. I'm acquainted with more than a few boomers who feel that their own children have become alien and incomprehensible.

            2 votes
    2. [2]
      neu
      Link Parent
      Not me in particular, but about the millennial generation or liberals. I also am currently working alongside someone who sounds an awful lot like the manager you mentioned. He speaks in very broad...

      Is there a specific way in which your elders treat or talk about you, that makes you unhappy? That encourages and supports you?

      Not me in particular, but about the millennial generation or liberals. I also am currently working alongside someone who sounds an awful lot like the manager you mentioned.

      He speaks in very broad generalizations and lumps them all into one group. It's like he views us all as one giant hivemind somehow that share the exact same opinions. Just the other day, he made a comment along the lines of "Liberals want to ban all guns." I questioned him to make sure that I understood his point and asked "All liberals want this? Every single one?" He replied, "Yes, they want to take all guns because (some reason I don't remember exactly)" I simply pointed out that while some may want to see an outright ban on guns, that certainly doesn't represent everyone, as most proposals I have heard have been in favor of common sense gun reform; and given the rising number of mass shootings it's a conversation that we need to be having. The conversation that followed was a fun one because not only did he not take a moment to even consider what I had to say, he outright rejected facts that I pulled up online and presented to him.

      It's disheartening to have these kinds of conversations, but I think it's also important to remember that this is far from the majority of how most prior generations view and treat the younger generations. Most experiences I have had, represent someone such as yourself. You attribute the faults of an individual to just that; the faults of a single individual. You are willing to listen to the concerns of others and you try to place yourself in their shoes, to move forward from a place of understanding. When you aren't sure if you understand fully, you ask.

      Many of us, including those in my generation, could stand to take notes from this. I think this is an evermore popular mindset that is rising in America with the current political climate as we become more polarized. Rather than listening to the concerns of others, it's becoming more common to ignore all opposing views because "they are just a dumb liberal/conservative." It can be hard to remain hopeful sometimes as it seems to be more commonplace to ignore that everyone is different and has different experiences in life and might think differently from ourselves.

      4 votes
      1. patience_limited
        Link Parent
        I guess I fear epistemic closure more than any other feature of current political polarization. There's a kind of "shirts vs. skins" division into monolithic political tribes, each of which holds...

        I guess I fear epistemic closure more than any other feature of current political polarization. There's a kind of "shirts vs. skins" division into monolithic political tribes, each of which holds a set of beliefs as axiomatic and impervious to countervailing realities, where any other belief is evil and must be unquestioningly opposed at all costs.

        We know there are sources cultivating this kind of fearful unreason - "!Conservative" = "take all the guns away so we can be oppressed under the jackboots of Communists", "!Liberal" = "oppress all non-white, non-straight, non-privileged people".

        The majority of the 19 - 29 year-old cohort espouses values potentially opposed to the "guns, (Christian) God, and (economic) liberty" axioms presented as current core Conservative values, which just happen to be the preponderance of values held by 55+ year-old cohorts. So that's a useful political wedge between generations, and why it might be useful to promote the story that millennials are lazy, narcissistic, or any other negative trait that can be plausibly ascribed.

        2 votes
    3. [4]
      pleure
      Link Parent
      I'd like the proletariat of all generations rise up and expropriate the wealth of the capitalists. We can start with taxes since it will be easier. I'd also like people to understand the economic...

      What would you like to see prior generations do to support you better, emotionally, financially or otherwise?

      I'd like the proletariat of all generations rise up and expropriate the wealth of the capitalists. We can start with taxes since it will be easier.

      I'd also like people to understand the economic context in which the people who are currently middle-aged or slightly older lived in was an aberration and that the world has changed. I'd like more people to recognize how alienating and soul-crushing many modern jobs for young people are.

      2 votes
      1. [3]
        Pilgrim
        Link Parent
        Versus jobs for non-young people? Sorry, made me chuckle. I'm in favor of the gist of what you're saying if I interpret it mildly, but have to ask if you're advocating for a complete socialist...

        how alienating and soul-crushing many modern jobs for young people are

        Versus jobs for non-young people? Sorry, made me chuckle.

        I'm in favor of the gist of what you're saying if I interpret it mildly, but have to ask if you're advocating for a complete socialist economy or perhaps something more mixed? After all, the market forces at work in capitalism are some of the most powerful in the world for creating innovation.

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          pleure
          Link Parent
          I'm generalizing very very broadly of course, but in general I think that older people who got into a career earlier are in at least a marginally better environment than young people. Maybe, but...

          Versus jobs for non-young people? Sorry, made me chuckle.

          I'm generalizing very very broadly of course, but in general I think that older people who got into a career earlier are in at least a marginally better environment than young people.

          After all, the market forces at work in capitalism are some of the most powerful in the world for creating innovation.

          Maybe, but from a practical perspective markets are not nearly perfectly competitive and collusion is rampant. I could also argue that if a larger pool of people was free to pursue innovative activities because they didn't have to sell their labor in order to survive we would see just as much if not more of it.

          Also, innovation for its own sake isn't something I support, it should be done with the goal of improving the human condition. And if there is so much that can be done right now to improve it, why but so much stock in further innovation? My biggest fear is that we create the technology to functionally eliminate the need to work, but that it's never widely used because the people who "own" it stand to lose under such an arrangement. You could make arguments that we're already seeing this happen.

          2 votes
          1. Pilgrim
            Link Parent
            This statement isn't tethered to anything I've ever read or experienced. Companies love, love, love to automate because it's cheaper than human labor. If anything, capitalism has the most...

            My biggest fear is that we create the technology to functionally eliminate the need to work, but that it's never widely used because the people who "own" it stand to lose under such an arrangement.

            This statement isn't tethered to anything I've ever read or experienced. Companies love, love, love to automate because it's cheaper than human labor. If anything, capitalism has the most potential to bring about a post-scarcity society compared to any other economic system I've ever heard of.

            2 votes
  3. [2]
    zoec
    Link
    Previously, I posted a link to "queer time" article. Even beyond a queer-identified audience, I think this thesis from the article is sobering: If "adult" is used as a judgemental wedge to set...

    Previously, I posted a link to "queer time" article. Even beyond a queer-identified audience, I think this thesis from the article is sobering:

    What constitutes adulthood has never been self-evident or value-neutral.

    If "adult" is used as a judgemental wedge to set people against one another, to split the non-normal off "the normal", so that the assumptions, socioeconomic conditions, histories of values, and power dynamics of "the normal" don't get questioned, then I don't want to be an "adult". I want to throw away this label and join the de-adulted.

    Is there a specific way in which your elders treat or talk about you, that makes you unhappy? That encourages and supports you?

    When I was young, the "elders" talked about my youth as if it were a shameful defect to be overcome by my own moral power. They could do nothing, and if I failed, it was my fault. And now I'm quite sensitive to what I call the "appeal to the adulthood". Mind games, really, and I feel unhappy when people play mind games on me.

    I feel encouraged and supported, when leadership flows from being together in the same trench and work together. I feel supported when they quote from experiences in order to let those experiences speak for themselves because they have something to do with the work, rather than weave a narrative that pins me down at the bottom with those experiences.

    What would you like to see prior generations do to support you better, emotionally, financially or otherwise?

    I feel they could do lots of good if they'd be willing to do the emotional labour and get their own emotional difficulties sorted out, with professional help if needed.

    7 votes
    1. patience_limited
      Link Parent
      Thank you, that's an important set of points and a helpful story. As I mentioned in a response above, I found that "adulthood" is malleable, dependent on culture and conditions. It was painful for...

      Thank you, that's an important set of points and a helpful story. As I mentioned in a response above, I found that "adulthood" is malleable, dependent on culture and conditions. It was painful for me to enter the "adult" world with a set of self-imposed expectations that reality couldn't sustain, and that's what most young adults eventually face.

      There's a media landscape that tells us only celebrity, wealth or winning first place is sufficient. We're told to dream big and grasp at solitary independence. Our families invest us with their own generations' failed hopes for greater prominence, achievement and prosperity.

      The rise of social media and whole suites of tools for collaborative effort haven't been absorbed by our cultures yet; we're still not educating people well in interdependence as a much more successful strategy than the old zero-sum games where one person, clan, or tribe's success implies someone else's failure, and the fear of being a "loser" is the stick we internalize to beat ourselves with.

      3 votes
  4. [3]
    Heichou
    Link
    As an almost 21 year old, I have first hand experience with this. As I am right now, everyone older than me tells me to go to college and if I pass, then everything will be A- okay. From...

    As an almost 21 year old, I have first hand experience with this. As I am right now, everyone older than me tells me to go to college and if I pass, then everything will be A- okay. From everything I've hear/read on the internet, it absolutely is not A-okay after that, because the hard part nowadays isn't just passing your classes, but finding a job afterwards. Another big proponent of the difficulty of schooling post- high school is the cost. I don't think many parents/older adults realize just how much more expensive school has gotten, and how much less of an enticing carrot on a stick it is nowadays than what it used to be. At the current moment, working until I'm successful or going to trade schools seem much better alternatives to borrowing money I don't have/can't pay off for 4-8 years until finish school and then developing ulcers trying desperately to pay it off.

    And then living alone is another beast entirely. At my job, I only make minimum wage, which is $10.50 an hour. I have virtually zero access to higher paying positions unless I take some kind of classes/certificates or unless I work 3 minimum wage jobs for a year each to have enough "experience" to be considered for a "real job". Living on my own just isn't possible; all of my friends who live away from their parents live with friends to help cover the cost of living. By myself, it is impossible to pay for rent, food, gas, insurance, internet, and whatever else you can think of without working 40 hours a week every week at my shitty job until I kill myself voluntarily or just from sheer stress.

    Shit's rough right now, and many people don't realize that.

    4 votes
    1. [2]
      patience_limited
      Link Parent
      As mentioned before, I'm pretty familiar with this scenario, even if I went through it 20+ years before you are now. The challenges always feel worst when you're in the middle of overcoming them....

      As mentioned before, I'm pretty familiar with this scenario, even if I went through it 20+ years before you are now.

      The challenges always feel worst when you're in the middle of overcoming them. One thing I wish I'd known was how useful mindfulness meditation is in managing rumination about future outcomes and keeping crushing fear of failure at bay. For me, that "developing ulcers" problem was actual ulcers and a lot of other stress-driven illness that just compounded the situation.

      One of the worst things about the current U.S. education system is that there's so much misalignment between the cost and value of higher education. If people ask me for advice, I'm always going to say, "get your first two years at a community college, play around with academic tracks to figure out what you like doing, pick up any certifications relevant to your chosen job there, then transfer into a university".

      Community colleges are much cheaper, provide more personal attention, have class schedules that can accommodate working students, and are oriented around teaching rather than research prestige.

      But I'm also going to say, "get a Bachelor's degree in something" as a minimum entrance requirement for any non-trade job that pays better than minimum wage.

      Take advanced degrees only if you know exactly what you want to labor at for the rest of your life (you may not get to do that anyway). Don't expect that you will ever use 90% of what you were forced to study. However, I guarantee that you will have rare, glorious moments when some obscure theory or fact does prove useful and you get a glimpse of what the old-fashioned liberal education was originally intended to provide.

      [Everything is not "A-okay". Hypothesis: U.S. universities are part of a terrible unspoken conspiracy to keep workers in chains of debt to buy ever more credentials, for ever-diminishing competitive edge, and dilute the wage premium for skill, in an unfair labor system. That's me banging the old socialist drum, and I'll stop now.]

      As to the living alone part, my student years were spent living in tiny apartments with up to five other people.
      However unpleasant, at the time it was better than living under my parents' roof.

      For a few years, I alternated working for a year and going to school for a year. On returning to school, it was always painful to catch up again, but it meant that I could scrape through without too much debt, and that I could graduate with work experience. The work experience also meant that I could get a grant for graduate school.

      With current costs versus wages, and the abolition of significant scholarships and grants, that strategy is no longer feasible.

      So yes, shit's not just tough, but more to the point, it is even tougher than the misery that prior generations went through.

      4 votes
      1. Heichou
        Link Parent
        Hey dude, this was a really in depth reply and I want to thank you for giving me some food for thought. That was well thought out and very helpful. Thank you

        Hey dude, this was a really in depth reply and I want to thank you for giving me some food for thought. That was well thought out and very helpful. Thank you

        1 vote