Movies are extremely rarely a good reflection of actual culture. Keep in mind that the movie came out in the late 70's so it is more or less a caricature of 50's culture, e.g. almost parody-like....
Movies are extremely rarely a good reflection of actual culture. Keep in mind that the movie came out in the late 70's so it is more or less a caricature of 50's culture, e.g. almost parody-like. Not to say there isn't some toxic BS in the movie, but at the end of the day, it's just a movie, and a movie that had a pretty profound impact on film and culture, for better or for worse. To your point, if someones worried Grease will distort their childs view of the world, then they have a lot more to be worried about elsewhere.
It's not exactly a fallacious argument. There's an effect of media violence on children, as much as I hate to admit it. The effect sizes aren't very large, and many of these studies aren't as well...
It's not exactly a fallacious argument. There's an effect of media violence on children, as much as I hate to admit it. The effect sizes aren't very large, and many of these studies aren't as well statistically adjusted as I'd like (I think socioeconomic background is often overlooked), but some of the studies and meta-analyses do a reasonably good job of proving that there's some correlation between the two.
We see similar correlations between the portrayal of sex in media and the timing of sexual encounters (and unfortunately, often unsafe sex - I blame that more on poor education than anything else). We also see similar correlations between the portrayal of smoking cigarettes and children's exposure to tobacco. Body image is a constant struggle for women moreso than men, but media exposure to bodies also influences body dysmorphic disorder, anorexia, and other eating and weight disorders.
It's an unfortunate reality, but media portrayal does influence our lives and how we perceive and interact with it. The question is what do we consider "too much" or "too far" in the context of what gets exposed to children? I was exposed to all of this at a young age, and I'd like to think I turned out alright. But maybe I'd be an even better person if this exposure was accompanied by appropriate education. Or maybe if my exposure was delayed, a similar effect would happen. I'm not sure where this leaves us, but it is a question we need to examine closely, and not dismiss because it doesn't match our identity or view of the world.
Those aren't the same thing though... people who are predisposed to commit mass murder may be triggered to commit mass murder by notoriety and exposure to seeing someone else do it, but study...
Those aren't the same thing though... people who are predisposed to commit mass murder may be triggered to commit mass murder by notoriety and exposure to seeing someone else do it, but study after study after study has shown that the vast majority of people are unaffected by violent video games and movies. Most people can separate fact from fiction.
And yes, I do believe that media shapes culture to some extent but fiction is not reality and most people can recognize that distinction.
I think the main point here is that violence and sexism are different. It's much easier to emulate sexist behaviour while interactive generally than the violent scenarios portrayed in media. At...
I think the main point here is that violence and sexism are different. It's much easier to emulate sexist behaviour while interactive generally than the violent scenarios portrayed in media.
At the core of it people watch movies to on some level to have their opinion challenged and changed, broaden their perspective. How could you possibly have the kind of hype surrounding the portrayal of women and minorities in media if watching media affected no-one in any way.
Sure, but historical context matters, IMO. If Grease was released today and was about today I could see the argument for it being wildly inappropriate, however it was filmed in the 70s and...
Sure, but historical context matters, IMO. If Grease was released today and was about today I could see the argument for it being wildly inappropriate, however it was filmed in the 70s and portrays fictional events that take place in the 50s. And like it or not that sort of attitude was generally considered acceptable back then. Some leeway has to be given for that and I think most people who watch the movie now realize that sort of behavior and attitude towards women is unacceptable in the modern age.
Yeah for sure context is key in understanding why, but it does not make a difference in it being appropriate or not. By the same token Grease is problematic even if you can contextualise it....
Yeah for sure context is key in understanding why, but it does not make a difference in it being appropriate or not. By the same token Grease is problematic even if you can contextualise it. Arguably it would have been problematic back then as well just less easy to spot because of how common the behaviour would have been.
Imo it does not even stand on it's own as a comment on the 50s, because the film does nothing to contextualise it's self, explaining how and why, nor does it make a comment that it's bad or unacceptable. It's necessary add a modern addendum to make it understandable from a our perspective.
It doesn't make what is portrayed in them entirely acceptable but some things are simply just products of their time. That doesn't make what they portray ethically or morally correct but I think...
It doesn't make what is portrayed in them entirely acceptable but some things are simply just products of their time. That doesn't make what they portray ethically or morally correct but I think ignoring their historical context like this author has, and then writing them off as "indoctrinat[ion]" and "inappropriate" to be shown to children isn't very productive and is severely overreacting, IMO.
Yeah it would be better to explain it, rather then ignore it. It's also a good way of starting a conversation that could be difficult to start with a teenager. Definitely value but yeah it should...
Yeah it would be better to explain it, rather then ignore it. It's also a good way of starting a conversation that could be difficult to start with a teenager. Definitely value but yeah it should be contextualised when being shown to someone that does not have the background knowledge necessary.
I do agree with you to a certain extent, but as mentioned that is the same argument made by people against violent video games. Without going down that rabbit hole, people who are predisposed to...
I do agree with you to a certain extent, but as mentioned that is the same argument made by people against violent video games. Without going down that rabbit hole, people who are predisposed to violence / misogyny are going to take that shit and run, but a well adjusted person who can separate fiction from reality (or in the instance of a child, with the guidance of an adult) shouldn't be shamed for liking a silly 80's romcom.
My mom loved Grease and other works like Taming of the Shrew, that I honestly found really problematic as a kid (yeah, I was the annoying kid that thought Mom should be outraged by Disney movies,...
My mom loved Grease and other works like Taming of the Shrew, that I honestly found really problematic as a kid (yeah, I was the annoying kid that thought Mom should be outraged by Disney movies, though I loved my Disney movies).
My mom always took a bit of a "it's just a movie" stance, that I do find myself leaning strongly towards now. So the reason I posted this article was actually the following line:
What I do regret is that I let my nostalgia override my values. I regret that I was willing to suspend judgment because I wanted to enjoy the culture of my youth, untarnished by my grown-up moral standards.
It's one thing to enjoy a movie and acknowledge it's problematic, and another to wave it off as if times were super different then, like women, and minorities were cool with being harassed or treated unfairly. Not that they simply didn't have the same weight to their own voice.
And of course, Grease is a cultural icon, so while I don't believe watching it will suddenly make you behave like anyone in the film, I believe there is an issue in normalizing misogyny. That's not done with a single movie, and we seemingly have a wide set to choose from. If I had to choose, I have a much bigger issue with The Big Bang Theory.
I agree with your sentiments. I'm curious what you think of modern horror movies? I recall there was a rash of what I refer to as "torture porn" movies like Saw. Not my thing, but I understand...
It's one thing to enjoy a movie and acknowledge it's problematic, and another to wave it off as if times were super different then, like women, and minorities were cool with being harassed or treated unfairly. Not that they simply didn't have the same weight to their own voice.
I agree with your sentiments. I'm curious what you think of modern horror movies? I recall there was a rash of what I refer to as "torture porn" movies like Saw. Not my thing, but I understand many people really like them. My thought is that these types of movies do a lot to normalize violence.
It seems to me that violence in media is a bit different than other issues like sexism, homophobia, and ideas surrounding what is healthy in a relationship. The average person is not likely to...
Exemplary
It seems to me that violence in media is a bit different than other issues like sexism, homophobia, and ideas surrounding what is healthy in a relationship. The average person is not likely to encounter situations where violence is acceptable in normal day-to-day life, so it's not too difficult to separate fictional violence from real violence. On the other hand, moral judgments on issues like body image or promiscuity are common and pervasive in real life and thus more likely to be affected by media portrayals and implicit norms.
Basically, my hypothesis is that the more obviously fictional certain elements of media are, the less people's value systems are affected and, conversely, only insofar as media shapes our perceptions of reality itself does it truly affect our cultural and moral norms. That's not to say "unrealistic" media can't affect us, but rather that the way it affects us tends to be not through the values and norms portrayed in the media being directly adopted, but rather more subtly through the way those values and norms shape how we perceive them to be indicative (or not) of a greater real-life moral consensus.
I think you put it really well, and is exactly the reason I believe shows like The Big Bang Theory are so problematic. Ironically, I believe in trying to fix some of these issues, they are...
I think you put it really well, and is exactly the reason I believe shows like The Big Bang Theory are so problematic.
Ironically, I believe in trying to fix some of these issues, they are actually making it more problematic. For example, Meteor Garden (which I couldn't get through the remake), tones down the violence of the original, and that actually makes it harder to watch. I think because it went from something comical to something more realistic.
Not sure what to actually call it, but the sexism and homophobic jokes in general. Examples that jump to mind are Howard's creepiness is played off as a joke instead of predatory, emasculating Raj...
Not sure what to actually call it, but the sexism and homophobic jokes in general. Examples that jump to mind are Howard's creepiness is played off as a joke instead of predatory, emasculating Raj (who I think is very queer coded), and such.
A specific episode that always bothered me was when Penny asked Leonard to pretend they were dating while her dad was in town, and Leonard kept kissing her, knowing she didn't want to be kissed, but was only accepting it to keep up the charade.
Pop Culture Detective has a pretty interesting video called The Adorkable Misogyny of The Big Bang Theory. I think it's come up a few times in discussions in ~tv.
I never really got into them, though I watched so many with friends throughout high school and uni. I'll start by saying I have a pretty high tolerance for "TV gore", and generally have no issues...
I never really got into them, though I watched so many with friends throughout high school and uni.
I'll start by saying I have a pretty high tolerance for "TV gore", and generally have no issues with violent video games. The part that bothers me most is the difference of violence that's shown against women, especially sexy women. With the exception of maybe Cabin in the Woods, even parodies are done terribly here. They all sort of blend together for me, but I remember one parody with the "sexy" one basically in her underwear before she is basically hacked to death in a comedic fashion.
So, while I don't believe these movies normalize violence in general, honestly because they are so extreme, I believe they do almost, if not outright, fetishize violence against women, linking the torture/deaths to women's sexuality.
I'm actually having trouble wording this...hopefully it makes sense.
Don't forget about the scene in 16 candles where the nerdy kid sleeps with a girl when shes drunk and passed out. I didn't see that movie until recently and it made my stomach turn. Even in the...
Don't forget about the scene in 16 candles where the nerdy kid sleeps with a girl when shes drunk and passed out. I didn't see that movie until recently and it made my stomach turn. Even in the 80's, I can't believe they got a way with that.
These days awareness of unacceptable is coming out faster than then. Just this week there was an article claiming a wink from a stranger is now sexual harassment.
These days awareness of unacceptable is coming out faster than then. Just this week there was an article claiming a wink from a stranger is now sexual harassment.
The man at the hardware store winked at me today when I walked through the door. I think he was just trying to be friendly though. The roads are pretty messed up near there right now and it seems...
The man at the hardware store winked at me today when I walked through the door. I think he was just trying to be friendly though. The roads are pretty messed up near there right now and it seems to have really hurt their business.
With those sorts of articles, it literally is almost always the case of getting clicks. The author doesn't actually believe their argument, but they know it will bring in that sweet ad revenue.
With those sorts of articles, it literally is almost always the case of getting clicks. The author doesn't actually believe their argument, but they know it will bring in that sweet ad revenue.
The scene with John under the desk honestly made we uncomfortable when I first watched it. I was actually never a huge fan of The Breakfast Club. I loved Pretty in Pink, which if memory serves,...
The scene with John under the desk honestly made we uncomfortable when I first watched it. I was actually never a huge fan of The Breakfast Club. I loved Pretty in Pink, which if memory serves, it's probably one of the better ones of the bunch.
I love John Hughes movies. Pretty in Pink was great but her dad always creeped me out. I think I associate the actor with meaner characters he's played in the past. His character in the movie is...
I love John Hughes movies. Pretty in Pink was great but her dad always creeped me out. I think I associate the actor with meaner characters he's played in the past. His character in the movie is very sweet.
There was a lot of similar discussion on this topic during the Kavanaugh hearings. It reminded me of how many HS/college-geared movies from the 80s and 90s are pretty gross in retrospect.
There was a lot of similar discussion on this topic during the Kavanaugh hearings. It reminded me of how many HS/college-geared movies from the 80s and 90s are pretty gross in retrospect.
I watched Back to the Future a few days ago and was quite surprised by the scene at the dance, when it seems that Biff is about to rape Marty's mother, but it's sort of played for laughs and very...
I watched Back to the Future a few days ago and was quite surprised by the scene at the dance, when it seems that Biff is about to rape Marty's mother, but it's sort of played for laughs and very light hearted whilst she's trying to fight off this violation.
In BTTF's defense, Biff's not shown in a sympathetic light here, and the whole premise of that part of the story is for George to intervene and save Lorraine. I wouldn't include this in a list of...
In BTTF's defense, Biff's not shown in a sympathetic light here, and the whole premise of that part of the story is for George to intervene and save Lorraine. I wouldn't include this in a list of "rape culture movie scenes" because it's clearly shown as a villainous act. I disagree that it's played for laughs, though the seriousness of it is admittedly downplayed... most likely for the PG rating (would be a PG-13 today) and for consistent tone and pacing with the rest of the movie.
Also worth pointing out that throughout the trilogy, the love interests of both Marty and Doc are afforded considerably more agency and respect. They play fairly small roles in the plot, and both have their "damsel in distress" moments. But they also demonstrate consent, personhood, and volition and are treated in kind by their partners.
The '70s and '80s provided us with a lot of good examples of misogyny that's shocking in the #metoo era. A number of them are listed in this thread. I just disagree that Back to the Future fits into this same category.
Movies are extremely rarely a good reflection of actual culture. Keep in mind that the movie came out in the late 70's so it is more or less a caricature of 50's culture, e.g. almost parody-like. Not to say there isn't some toxic BS in the movie, but at the end of the day, it's just a movie, and a movie that had a pretty profound impact on film and culture, for better or for worse. To your point, if someones worried Grease will distort their childs view of the world, then they have a lot more to be worried about elsewhere.
Isn't this the same fallacious argument that is often used against violent video games?
It's not exactly a fallacious argument. There's an effect of media violence on children, as much as I hate to admit it. The effect sizes aren't very large, and many of these studies aren't as well statistically adjusted as I'd like (I think socioeconomic background is often overlooked), but some of the studies and meta-analyses do a reasonably good job of proving that there's some correlation between the two.
We see similar correlations between the portrayal of sex in media and the timing of sexual encounters (and unfortunately, often unsafe sex - I blame that more on poor education than anything else). We also see similar correlations between the portrayal of smoking cigarettes and children's exposure to tobacco. Body image is a constant struggle for women moreso than men, but media exposure to bodies also influences body dysmorphic disorder, anorexia, and other eating and weight disorders.
It's an unfortunate reality, but media portrayal does influence our lives and how we perceive and interact with it. The question is what do we consider "too much" or "too far" in the context of what gets exposed to children? I was exposed to all of this at a young age, and I'd like to think I turned out alright. But maybe I'd be an even better person if this exposure was accompanied by appropriate education. Or maybe if my exposure was delayed, a similar effect would happen. I'm not sure where this leaves us, but it is a question we need to examine closely, and not dismiss because it doesn't match our identity or view of the world.
Tagging /u/somewaffles and /u/koan so they can review this as well.
Those aren't the same thing though... people who are predisposed to commit mass murder may be triggered to commit mass murder by notoriety and exposure to seeing someone else do it, but study after study after study has shown that the vast majority of people are unaffected by violent video games and movies. Most people can separate fact from fiction.
And yes, I do believe that media shapes culture to some extent but fiction is not reality and most people can recognize that distinction.
I think the main point here is that violence and sexism are different. It's much easier to emulate sexist behaviour while interactive generally than the violent scenarios portrayed in media.
At the core of it people watch movies to on some level to have their opinion challenged and changed, broaden their perspective. How could you possibly have the kind of hype surrounding the portrayal of women and minorities in media if watching media affected no-one in any way.
Sure, but historical context matters, IMO. If Grease was released today and was about today I could see the argument for it being wildly inappropriate, however it was filmed in the 70s and portrays fictional events that take place in the 50s. And like it or not that sort of attitude was generally considered acceptable back then. Some leeway has to be given for that and I think most people who watch the movie now realize that sort of behavior and attitude towards women is unacceptable in the modern age.
Yeah for sure context is key in understanding why, but it does not make a difference in it being appropriate or not. By the same token Grease is problematic even if you can contextualise it. Arguably it would have been problematic back then as well just less easy to spot because of how common the behaviour would have been.
Imo it does not even stand on it's own as a comment on the 50s, because the film does nothing to contextualise it's self, explaining how and why, nor does it make a comment that it's bad or unacceptable. It's necessary add a modern addendum to make it understandable from a our perspective.
It doesn't make what is portrayed in them entirely acceptable but some things are simply just products of their time. That doesn't make what they portray ethically or morally correct but I think ignoring their historical context like this author has, and then writing them off as "indoctrinat[ion]" and "inappropriate" to be shown to children isn't very productive and is severely overreacting, IMO.
Yeah it would be better to explain it, rather then ignore it. It's also a good way of starting a conversation that could be difficult to start with a teenager. Definitely value but yeah it should be contextualised when being shown to someone that does not have the background knowledge necessary.
It's anecdotal but yes, I have watched A Clockwork Orange. No, it doesn't make me want to go out and do those things.
I do agree with you to a certain extent, but as mentioned that is the same argument made by people against violent video games. Without going down that rabbit hole, people who are predisposed to violence / misogyny are going to take that shit and run, but a well adjusted person who can separate fiction from reality (or in the instance of a child, with the guidance of an adult) shouldn't be shamed for liking a silly 80's romcom.
My mom loved Grease and other works like Taming of the Shrew, that I honestly found really problematic as a kid (yeah, I was the annoying kid that thought Mom should be outraged by Disney movies, though I loved my Disney movies).
My mom always took a bit of a "it's just a movie" stance, that I do find myself leaning strongly towards now. So the reason I posted this article was actually the following line:
It's one thing to enjoy a movie and acknowledge it's problematic, and another to wave it off as if times were super different then, like women, and minorities were cool with being harassed or treated unfairly. Not that they simply didn't have the same weight to their own voice.
And of course, Grease is a cultural icon, so while I don't believe watching it will suddenly make you behave like anyone in the film, I believe there is an issue in normalizing misogyny. That's not done with a single movie, and we seemingly have a wide set to choose from. If I had to choose, I have a much bigger issue with The Big Bang Theory.
I agree with your sentiments. I'm curious what you think of modern horror movies? I recall there was a rash of what I refer to as "torture porn" movies like Saw. Not my thing, but I understand many people really like them. My thought is that these types of movies do a lot to normalize violence.
It seems to me that violence in media is a bit different than other issues like sexism, homophobia, and ideas surrounding what is healthy in a relationship. The average person is not likely to encounter situations where violence is acceptable in normal day-to-day life, so it's not too difficult to separate fictional violence from real violence. On the other hand, moral judgments on issues like body image or promiscuity are common and pervasive in real life and thus more likely to be affected by media portrayals and implicit norms.
Basically, my hypothesis is that the more obviously fictional certain elements of media are, the less people's value systems are affected and, conversely, only insofar as media shapes our perceptions of reality itself does it truly affect our cultural and moral norms. That's not to say "unrealistic" media can't affect us, but rather that the way it affects us tends to be not through the values and norms portrayed in the media being directly adopted, but rather more subtly through the way those values and norms shape how we perceive them to be indicative (or not) of a greater real-life moral consensus.
I think you put it really well, and is exactly the reason I believe shows like The Big Bang Theory are so problematic.
Ironically, I believe in trying to fix some of these issues, they are actually making it more problematic. For example, Meteor Garden (which I couldn't get through the remake), tones down the violence of the original, and that actually makes it harder to watch. I think because it went from something comical to something more realistic.
What aspect of The Big Bang Theory are you referring to? I'm not sure I follow.
Not sure what to actually call it, but the sexism and homophobic jokes in general. Examples that jump to mind are Howard's creepiness is played off as a joke instead of predatory, emasculating Raj (who I think is very queer coded), and such.
A specific episode that always bothered me was when Penny asked Leonard to pretend they were dating while her dad was in town, and Leonard kept kissing her, knowing she didn't want to be kissed, but was only accepting it to keep up the charade.
Pop Culture Detective has a pretty interesting video called The Adorkable Misogyny of The Big Bang Theory. I think it's come up a few times in discussions in ~tv.
I never really got into them, though I watched so many with friends throughout high school and uni.
I'll start by saying I have a pretty high tolerance for "TV gore", and generally have no issues with violent video games. The part that bothers me most is the difference of violence that's shown against women, especially sexy women. With the exception of maybe Cabin in the Woods, even parodies are done terribly here. They all sort of blend together for me, but I remember one parody with the "sexy" one basically in her underwear before she is basically hacked to death in a comedic fashion.
So, while I don't believe these movies normalize violence in general, honestly because they are so extreme, I believe they do almost, if not outright, fetishize violence against women, linking the torture/deaths to women's sexuality.
I'm actually having trouble wording this...hopefully it makes sense.
That's a great way to phrase it. I've encountered way too many parents who let their young kids watch these movies.
Don't forget about the scene in 16 candles where the nerdy kid sleeps with a girl when shes drunk and passed out. I didn't see that movie until recently and it made my stomach turn. Even in the 80's, I can't believe they got a way with that.
These days awareness of unacceptable is coming out faster than then. Just this week there was an article claiming a wink from a stranger is now sexual harassment.
Can you elaborate? And do you have a link to this article? I would be interested in read it. Thanks in advance.
I think sexual harassment is an insane accusation, but to be fair winking at a stranger is kinda weird.
The man at the hardware store winked at me today when I walked through the door. I think he was just trying to be friendly though. The roads are pretty messed up near there right now and it seems to have really hurt their business.
With those sorts of articles, it literally is almost always the case of getting clicks. The author doesn't actually believe their argument, but they know it will bring in that sweet ad revenue.
I was able to find an article discussing a YouGov study where "28% of 18-24 year old women said [winking] is usually or always harassment":
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/11/01/sexual-harassment-how-genders-and-generations-see-/
The scene with John under the desk honestly made we uncomfortable when I first watched it. I was actually never a huge fan of The Breakfast Club. I loved Pretty in Pink, which if memory serves, it's probably one of the better ones of the bunch.
Thanks for including the article.
I love John Hughes movies. Pretty in Pink was great but her dad always creeped me out. I think I associate the actor with meaner characters he's played in the past. His character in the movie is very sweet.
I honestly never found him creepy, just really sad.
There was a lot of similar discussion on this topic during the Kavanaugh hearings. It reminded me of how many HS/college-geared movies from the 80s and 90s are pretty gross in retrospect.
I watched Back to the Future a few days ago and was quite surprised by the scene at the dance, when it seems that Biff is about to rape Marty's mother, but it's sort of played for laughs and very light hearted whilst she's trying to fight off this violation.
Thank God we've come so far.
In BTTF's defense, Biff's not shown in a sympathetic light here, and the whole premise of that part of the story is for George to intervene and save Lorraine. I wouldn't include this in a list of "rape culture movie scenes" because it's clearly shown as a villainous act. I disagree that it's played for laughs, though the seriousness of it is admittedly downplayed... most likely for the PG rating (would be a PG-13 today) and for consistent tone and pacing with the rest of the movie.
Also worth pointing out that throughout the trilogy, the love interests of both Marty and Doc are afforded considerably more agency and respect. They play fairly small roles in the plot, and both have their "damsel in distress" moments. But they also demonstrate consent, personhood, and volition and are treated in kind by their partners.
The '70s and '80s provided us with a lot of good examples of misogyny that's shocking in the #metoo era. A number of them are listed in this thread. I just disagree that Back to the Future fits into this same category.