14 votes

I pay my kids to get dressed, do homework and more. It’s the best decision I ever made.

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18 comments

  1. [10]
    Rocket_Man
    (edited )
    Link
    For those interested, some the arguments against doing this is that using extrinsic rewards promotes greed and undermines intrinsic motivation. It can also make children feel as if they are being...

    For those interested, some the arguments against doing this is that using extrinsic rewards promotes greed and undermines intrinsic motivation. It can also make children feel as if they are being manipulated which they are.

    Also of concern is that when using money or other extrinsic reinforcements they must be focused on negative tasks because they can reduce the child's interest in the activity if it's used for something they are supposed to have interest in. So for example paying them to practice music as in the OP is not recommended.

    25 votes
    1. [9]
      Whom
      Link Parent
      My parents tried a similar thing with me for a while when my dad got on a financial planning kick and I can definitely back up the feeling manipulated part. You know what makes you feel alienated...

      My parents tried a similar thing with me for a while when my dad got on a financial planning kick and I can definitely back up the feeling manipulated part. You know what makes you feel alienated from and uncomfortable around your parents? Turning your home life into a fucking job.

      I was getting more money and had more freedom than I ever did as a kid, but it felt awful and I was so glad when they stopped.

      9 votes
      1. [8]
        Gaywallet
        Link Parent
        I find this odd, because you have the choice of not doing these things and not getting paid. Why did it make you feel manipulated? Or was there not a choice of not doing these things?

        I find this odd, because you have the choice of not doing these things and not getting paid. Why did it make you feel manipulated?

        Or was there not a choice of not doing these things?

        2 votes
        1. [3]
          Whom
          Link Parent
          Imo there's a meaningful difference between making the act of being a normal family member something to get paid for and occasionally rewarding with money. If it's the rule, and I'm paid for doing...

          Imo there's a meaningful difference between making the act of being a normal family member something to get paid for and occasionally rewarding with money.

          If it's the rule, and I'm paid for doing family things, money has just infected the relationships which should be less tied up with that shit than any other. My parents are now my bosses and participating in the family no longer happens just because that's how families work. It sucks.

          I didn't see a problem with giving a few bucks after doing something occasionally or using it to entice the kid to do something above the normal shit. I remember my dad giving me some money for helping tear out some of our charred inner walls, and that didn't feel like an issue.

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            Gaywallet
            Link Parent
            This is what trips me up. If it's just "the act of being a normal family member", is not the reward a social one, rather than a monetary one? In the end you're being reinforced, it's just that the...

            there's a meaningful difference

            This is what trips me up. If it's just "the act of being a normal family member", is not the reward a social one, rather than a monetary one? In the end you're being reinforced, it's just that the stimulus is different (and in one case more easily quantifiable).

            Although now that I think about it, it's going to be difficult to truly separate the social reinforcement from the monetary one - that is to say, if you choose not to do your chores and therefore will not be rewarded monetarily for them, this will likely make the parents angry, frustrated, or disappointed in you when ideally those negative reinforcers should only happen if a monetary reinforcement isn't a part of the equation.

            2 votes
            1. Rocket_Man
              Link Parent
              This is the difference between an extrinsic (money) and intrinsic (praise) reward. Getting money for doing daily chores is an abstract and arbitrary reward. However receiving praise and thanks is...

              This is the difference between an extrinsic (money) and intrinsic (praise) reward. Getting money for doing daily chores is an abstract and arbitrary reward. However receiving praise and thanks is a normal part of a caring and supportive relationship. So you're right that the reward is a social one, but for humans that signifies quite a lot.

              3 votes
        2. [4]
          VoidOutput
          Link Parent
          I don't think any kid in their right mind would say that they don't want to buy cool new toys/comics/whatever. I also don't see how there's a real choice here.

          I don't think any kid in their right mind would say that they don't want to buy cool new toys/comics/whatever. I also don't see how there's a real choice here.

          2 votes
          1. [3]
            Gaywallet
            Link Parent
            The trade-off for buying those toys is doing chores. How does this punish them any more than a trade-off of not doing chores is not getting an allowance? Can you elaborate? Why is there not a...

            The trade-off for buying those toys is doing chores. How does this punish them any more than a trade-off of not doing chores is not getting an allowance?

            I also don't see how there's a real choice here.

            Can you elaborate? Why is there not a choice any more than the alternative (social reinforcement, preferred activity reinforcement, etc.)?

            1 vote
            1. [2]
              VoidOutput
              Link Parent
              It does not. There is no choice in either case. Positive reinforcement needs to work by stripping some benefits and giving them by encouraging behavior seen as positive. A kid seeking not to be...

              How does this punish them any more than a trade-off of not doing chores is not getting an allowance?

              It does not.

              Why is there not a choice any more than the alternative (social reinforcement, preferred activity reinforcement, etc.)?

              There is no choice in either case.

              Positive reinforcement needs to work by stripping some benefits and giving them by encouraging behavior seen as positive. A kid seeking not to be socially ostracized and trying not to get bored out of their mind will 90% go with the flow [1]. In those cases, even though a choice was presented, it was never really there. And this is not really an issue as such, it's how reinforcement works. What I take issue with is that we insert money into the equation while seemingly ignoring the fact that it reinforces pure money-seeking behavior. Going back to the root cause, why not teaching responsability with chores instead? (easier said than done, I will concede you that)

              [1]: Arbitrary percentage that is not based on fact, but I'm using it to introduce the reasonable assumption that there are kids who will not accept this way of doing things. These kids will instead be negatively impacted and see the whole thing as unjust.

              1. Gaywallet
                Link Parent
                No, that would be veiled negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is the addition of a positive stimulus to something that is desired. Classic example would be giving a treat to a dog after...

                Positive reinforcement needs to work by stripping some benefits and giving them by encouraging behavior seen as positive.

                No, that would be veiled negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is the addition of a positive stimulus to something that is desired. Classic example would be giving a treat to a dog after they sat when you said sit.

                A kid seeking not to be socially ostracized and trying not to get bored out of their mind will 90% go with the flow

                Last I checked 90% of kids don't do chores.

                even though a choice was presented, it was never really there.

                Can you elaborate with an example? I'm still not sure I follow this idea of "a choice was presented but it was never really there." We're talking about reinforcing a behavior such as doing a chore with a monetary reward. We're not talking about a false choice like "either eat your dinner or go hungry".

                seemingly ignoring the fact that it reinforces pure money-seeking behavior

                Does it? It's not like we're removing all forms of reinforcement from one's life except for monetary ones. We're just adding monetary reinforcement as an easy solution to a difficult problem (finding the right reinforcement).

                Going back to the root cause, why not teaching responsability with chores instead?

                That's the whole crux of this. Some kids won't be at the level where responsibility is enough to get them to do it. You need to prod them at first, and when they are more developed they can be weaned off monetary incentives.

                1 vote
  2. [4]
    agrippa
    Link
    Adults obviously make money ~40 hours a week at a job, but the rest of time we do tasks without getting paid monetarily. I cook, clean, do laundry, etc., not for money or 'out of the kindness of...

    "But then I ask them how many adults will go and work out of the kindness of their heart if they weren’t getting paid monetarily. Reinforcement is built into who we are. It pays to go to work. We don’t do it for free, even if society needs it. Kids are no different.”
    "They would now need to make their beds, feed the dog, practice music, keep their rooms clean and pick out their clothing the night before."

    Adults obviously make money ~40 hours a week at a job, but the rest of time we do tasks without getting paid monetarily. I cook, clean, do laundry, etc., not for money or 'out of the kindness of my heart', but just because it needs to be done. Out of the tasks listed above, I could see how cleaning a room/making a bed could be financially rewarded, but the others seem like that would stifle superior motivation. You should feed a dog, not because you'll get 25 cents, but because it's a living being that you have a responsibility to care for; you should practice music, not for money, but for your own enjoyment.

    9 votes
    1. [2]
      VoidOutput
      Link Parent
      Yeah, this quote really disturbs me. This whole affair feels like such a roundabout way of doing things. Wouldn't it be better to teach empathy and a sense of responsability? Because you're not...

      Yeah, this quote really disturbs me. This whole affair feels like such a roundabout way of doing things. Wouldn't it be better to teach empathy and a sense of responsability? Because you're not really teaching kids good manners. You're teaching the fact that to get what you want, you need to slave away and seek money. Laying it bare like that, you could replace "positive reinforcement" by endoctrination in my opinion.

      5 votes
      1. papasquat
        Link Parent
        Who wouldn't want that in a child!???

        Evan? You really need to take a bath. You smell terrible and haven't bathed in a week

        FUCK YOU! PAY ME!

        Who wouldn't want that in a child!???

        4 votes
    2. papasquat
      Link Parent
      Personally, I think that if there's a task that you can't logically find a good reason to convince your kid to do something, then maybe you shouldn't make them do it or incentivize him to do it. I...

      Personally, I think that if there's a task that you can't logically find a good reason to convince your kid to do something, then maybe you shouldn't make them do it or incentivize him to do it.

      I clean my room because I don't like living in filth. If my kid wants to step on legos every time he goes to pee, that's on him. It's not my room and I barely ever go in there.
      I'll make him do his homework and brush his teeth because even if he doesn't want to, there will be severe negative consequences for not doing it. I'm not going to pay him to do those things though. If you can't find a reason why the kid should clean his room though, maybe it's actually not that important.

      3 votes
  3. [2]
    Gaywallet
    Link
    This is behavioral therapy 101. It's why we have gold stars in children's classrooms, stickers, board games/puzzles for when they finish tasks early and other motivators. I'm not sure why many...

    This is behavioral therapy 101. It's why we have gold stars in children's classrooms, stickers, board games/puzzles for when they finish tasks early and other motivators.

    I'm not sure why many feel it taboo to give small amounts of money instead of preferred activities, but perhaps that's partially because of the social stigma of allowing children to work which came about in the early 1900s when we started to implement child labor laws.

    I think in the long term it's both more sustainable and better to reward with preferred activities (as they may learn to self regulate themselves in a similar fashion - e.g. if I work out I get to watch a tv show I like) but it can sometimes be difficult to figure out what these activities are and they might lose their preferred status if the child can already do these activities when they are done with what's expected of them.

    5 votes
    1. Pilgrim
      Link Parent
      I 100% agree. I feel the monetary route could lead to a false expectation that this might continue past childhood, whereas rewarding with a preferred activity is more true-to-life throughout life,...

      I think in the long term it's both more sustainable and better to reward with preferred activities

      I 100% agree. I feel the monetary route could lead to a false expectation that this might continue past childhood, whereas rewarding with a preferred activity is more true-to-life throughout life, thinking specifically of the idea of being able to relax once the chores are done.

      In our house we reward chores and general good behavior with screen time. For occasional "extra" chores I offer a dollar amount (picking up sticks and the like) as I see that more as additional labor, and like to provide them ways to earn additional money. We also provide them with a small allowance every two weeks ($10 for my oldest, $6 for my youngest) so they learn how to handle and save money. It seems to be working pretty well.

      4 votes
  4. kfwyre
    (edited )
    Link
    I think it's important to note that, with any article that involves best practices for children, we can't assume it's necessarily generalizable to everyone. One of the most damaging things I see...

    I think it's important to note that, with any article that involves best practices for children, we can't assume it's necessarily generalizable to everyone. One of the most damaging things I see is that a technique will be shown to be effective for a small sample, and it will then be uplifted into gospel as a mandate for all. Children are very different. Families are very different. Developmental stages are very different. Situations are very different. There simply is no one-size-fits-all technique.

    There's also a huge piece of information here that frames how we should interpret the author's findings. She notes that she and her children all have ADHD. This is significant because ADHD directly impacts executive functioning, reward processing, and motivation--the very things she is addressing with her behavior modification plan! This links back to my earlier point, in that her experience doesn't necessarily apply to everyone. Correspondingly, her conclusions about her family cannot necessarily be dismissed by our objections or differing experiences with ours.

    5 votes
  5. tomf
    Link
    I hated high school... and as a result, I skipped a lot of classes (sometimes almost for the entire term.) In grade 12 my Mom offered to buy me a CD for every week where I didn't skip a single...

    I hated high school... and as a result, I skipped a lot of classes (sometimes almost for the entire term.) In grade 12 my Mom offered to buy me a CD for every week where I didn't skip a single class.

    I think I cashed in once (The Doors ‎– Absolutely Live.)

    Instead of addressing the issue at hand (not being challenged at school) there was an attempt to bribe me into compliance. Even as I get older, compensation means nothing compared to fulfillment for completing a task, solving a problem, etc.

    So while this might work well with the author's kids, its definitely not universal. The author is fortunate that this system works for all of her kids.

    In my family, my sister and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the love of gifts and possessions. For me, I stopped celebrating Christmas and birthdays before my teens, but my sister still calculates the total cost and amount of gifts for both events. My ex-wife was also into gifts, something I didn't grasp until the year I left her.

    With my ex-girlfriend's boy I wasn't shy about bribing the kid. It worked well for him. Instead of just giving him straight cash, we decided on something small from the garden shop, then basically had a buck-a-task system. Not everything was 'billable', but things that were typically beyond his age (4) definitely counted.

    After a few weeks he bought his first stevia plant, and then a few weeks later a kumquat plant. It was great. I showed him how to use the swiffer-like thing to dust the floors, and before long he was a pro.

    1 vote