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The ‘Men’s Liberation’ movement time forgot: Nowadays, the Men’s Rights movement runs the gamut from incels to red pillers, but in the 1970s, men's libbers looked something like… feminists?
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- Title
- The Male Feminist Movement Time Forgot
- Word count
- 3377 words
It's quite telling that the proposed healthy men's group is a place of self-flagellation where they can "address their own hostility toward women". You don't see feminist groups focusing on how much women hate men and how they need to deal with that.
I don't subscribe to manosphere ideals, and I largely support basic feminist principles, but it's incredibly patronizing to suggest that one of the chief concerns of men who feel like they are having issues related to their assigned gender role should be to talk about how much men as a group suck and how they can do better.
Alright, just to be clear, I don't really like that aspect of the article either, and r/menslib commenters themselves have criticized this segment of the article. I just think it's a neat article about a piece of history that would probably otherwise not have been written unless MensLib went truly mainstream.
I think that the largest problem preventing the popularity of feminism (or "Men's Liberation" or any other gender-based ideology) has always been with the way we communicate those ideas, and particularly how we receive those ideas. Like you mentioned, it seems like they are always pointed at one group or the other - it's always someone's fault. As an interesting aside, I think that is one reason feminism is better discussed over the internet because you can talk without revealing your gender, which makes it harder to say that one person is coming from a biased position.
I think the most important thing to talk to people in regards to gender study is to point out that it's never one group's fault. For instance, once you understand what toxic masculinity is (as opposed to the straw man "all men are toxic" version), it's pretty easy to see that it's not just something men are doing to themselves; it's pretty common for women to reinforce those negative masculine traits as well. It's not a problem of man vs. woman, it's a problem of society vs. the individual.
I think one of the broader meta-goals of feminism or men's lib is the freedom of people from the effects of stereotypes, and it's of paramount importance that when we explain the surrounding effects that we present them in a way that avoids those stereotypes. We can't say "men do" this or "women do" that, we should say "we do [things] and it affects [wo]men like this....". The truth of the matter is that very few people actually completely adhere to all of the stereotypical ideals and behaviors assigned to them, nor do they believe in popular social stereotypes, so if you go in assuming the stereotype you're very likely going to be met with resistance.
There are definitely issues disenfranchising men from pursuing romantic or sexual relationships. If you don't believe there is, please explain why the percentage of US men under 30 who have had no sexual partners since adulthood has more than trebled between 2008 and 2018 from 8% to 27%.
While I sympathise with the manosphere, I don't agree with their methods of raising awareness or dealing with their problems. Many of these communities are incredibly toxic to the point where it has led to their ostracization.
I also disagree with the notion that feminism has led to male disenfranchisement.
My theory instead is that economic issues have created a male underclass of people who either live in squalor or still live with their parents well into adulthood because they either can't afford to move out, are mollycoddled, or suffer from mental health issues that prevent them from making that jump. Low wages, high inflation, soaring costs and an overall lack of care & funding for mental health only exacerbates the issue. Societal attitudes haven't caught up to this trend, so it's created a group of men seen as unappealing.
Well, why would this not apply (or hasn't applied) to women?
I think that evolutionary biology already provides a lot of answers. It's because our societal attitudes and, more importantly, our biology hasn't caught up to these shorter term trends. We haven't eliminated the notion of patriarchy or gender roles in our society (men being the breadwinners, women looking after the family for instance) despite what feminism has accomplished.
Men who live with their parents or lack social/financial status aren't going to be viewed as attractive suitors, even in a modern society where the opposite can occur.
I know it's a very traditional view, but much of our biology dates back to when we were hunters & gatherers, which homo sapiens and their ancestors have been for millions of years. We find certain traits attractive because they were the most ideal traits to pass to offspring to ensure our survival. It's only been in the last few thousand years that civilization has really grown.
I also think that online dating may have a lot to do with it. It encourages selectiveness.
You're making stuff up here. It's easy to assign that meaning to those insults but this is not where they originate from, not to mention that they mean significantly different thing in en-gb, en-us and en-nz.
Personal observation: it's gotten very, very popular to argue for nurture over nature in the debate of what makes a human behave in certain ways. I don't want to open Pandora's box here and derail the conversation, because I think that it's a valid, but ongoing discussion, but a lot of people especially on the left side subscribe to a human being an entirely blank slate at birth, even though those ancient lizard neural pathways are still present and active in our brain.
Addendum: The question then remains why the number of adult male virgins under 30 has risen so sharply in 10 years between 2008-2018. If the lizard brain truly is responsible, it always should've been this way.
Here however I agree with @Adys, I've never taken wanker/tosser as that kind of insult, it's just one of those ways to say asshole differently.
But those consequences were always there. Men are usually tasked with taking that awful first step that a lot of us deal with by either developing an unhealthy swagger or a dismissive attitude to deal with the rejection. But that was always there and it hasn't changed. So what has? Is it the internet? The fact that building a safe life for yourself takes longer and longer? A combination of those?
I have no clue.
That explanation makes a lot of sense.
29 here, turning 30 soon. Still haven't lost it.
I have a similar background to these people. Girls used to pick on me throughout HS and kinda turning reclusive in my late teens. So I certainly have some sympathy for the community. I'd rather not associate myself with people that glorify the actions of mass killers though. They're the people that have gone so far off the deep end that they risk becoming the next big school shooter. It's why male mental health is turning into a borderline international crisis.
For the most part women just seem to not be interested in me, or just want to use me for whatever reason. My previous ex from last year didn't even have the decency to break up with me. She just blocked me out of the blue one day on everything. Part of me suspects she was cheating. Our last few Whatsapp convos involved her fawning over her personal trainer, probably in an attempt to wind me up. It was one of several red flags I probably shouldn't have ignored with her.
Three years ago I went through a pretty shaky breakup with an ex that I cared for quite deeply. My mistake was confronting her about the breakup because that severed our friendship and we haven't spoken since. I haven't even tried to contact her again since because her last message to me was pretty damn cold. Last I heard she was back in Japan working full time. The whole thing definitely made me a far more bitter person. It was also what got me into the law of attraction community, which is probably a healthier alternative than going further down that manosphere rabbit hole.
Firstly, I don't have many exes. My first real girlfriend was from that relationship three years ago and it was a long distance one that fell apart the moment she came to the UK to do her exchange year. I never had sex during any of my past relationships.
Secondly, I seldom ask ladies out because of some bad experiences I've had, mostly from back in high school.
Law of attraction is basically the notion that our thoughts create the reality around us, which I believe to some extent. I definitely see correlations between my mental state and how things occur around me. What I don't like about LoA is the trend of "gurus" trying to blatantly cash in by pushing their own brand of snake oil.
I've tried multiple dating sites over the years: Tinder, Coffee Meets Bagel, Okcupid, Facebook Dating, Bumble, Hinge, POF, Match.com, Happn and a few others I don't wholly remember. I have seen very little success on these apps, except maybe CMB and Okcupid, before it became a Tinder clone.
Cause apparently women have not been affected by this:
From here.
There's an accompanying reddit thread on r/AskMen, it's part shitshow, part legit answers, as always.
The fact that it doesn't apply to gay men is interesting though. I couldn't say why.
If only I were gay, :(
An interesting article about the history of the apparently original men's liberation movement of the 70s, which r/MensLib tries to represent and sometimes claims ideological succesorship to.