If I had lots of strangers yelling "fuck you" at me every time I went out in public, I might take that as an opportunity for self-reflection. Did I do something to piss them off? Is it possible...
If I had lots of strangers yelling "fuck you" at me every time I went out in public, I might take that as an opportunity for self-reflection. Did I do something to piss them off? Is it possible that their anger at me is justified by something I did or said?
Humans are social animals. If a chimpanzee does something that violates the group dynamics of that troop, you can bet the other chimpanzees are going to yell at it.
incidentally related to your point here is that, while it's not exactly elegant, sometimes direct confrontation of this sort in public is the only real avenue by which you can challenge a...
incidentally related to your point here is that, while it's not exactly elegant, sometimes direct confrontation of this sort in public is the only real avenue by which you can challenge a viewpoint or speak your mind to someone. if, say, your congressmember isn't taking calls, won't do town halls, and refuses to meet with constituents, what else can you do but something like this to speak your mind? i think sometimes people gloss over or miss some of the factors which play into a confrontation of the sort Carlson describes.
Good point. My senator hasn't held townhalls since Trump was elected and only meets with prescreened constituents. Phone calls go to voicemail or interns (which is normal I think).
Good point. My senator hasn't held townhalls since Trump was elected and only meets with prescreened constituents. Phone calls go to voicemail or interns (which is normal I think).
Tucker is a professional troll who uses the language of white supremacy to frame conservative talking points. That is his right, I suppose. I certainly won't shed a tear that he can't eat out...
Tucker is a professional troll who uses the language of white supremacy to frame conservative talking points. That is his right, I suppose. I certainly won't shed a tear that he can't eat out anymore. Boohoo, the rich old white guy can't say whatever he wants with no consequences.
Tucker Carlson is a fascist and should be treated as such. Liberals (in the "I don't like what you say but I'll defend your right to say it" way) are always undermined by the fascists because they...
Tucker Carlson is a fascist and should be treated as such.
Liberals (in the "I don't like what you say but I'll defend your right to say it" way) are always undermined by the fascists because they assume the fascists hold their same values–they do not. Tucker Carlson may whine that he gets heckled in public, something liberals may find abhorrent, it's an affront to free speech! But Carlson does not care about free speech, he only cares that he is facing consequences for his speech. He would be the first to celebrate a Marxist being similarly heckled by conservatives.
I believe this kind of public humiliation is the only tool we really have to combat fascism while staying somewhat within the liberal framework the majority of the West is comfortable with–the alternatives are censoring them or allowing fascism to grow to a point where armed conflict becomes the only possible resolution.
It is exactly free speech, isn’t it? It might be very rude, and might make me cringe if I was a random patron at the same restaurant, but it is free speech. There is nothing illegal about it,...
It is exactly free speech, isn’t it? It might be very rude, and might make me cringe if I was a random patron at the same restaurant, but it is free speech. There is nothing illegal about it, correct?
Mr Carlson works for Fox News. His network has systemically destroyed our 4th estate, led America to believe that Iraq was responsible for 9/11, which led to hundreds of thousands of needless deaths, and ISIS. Fox has misinformed and scared the crap out of half of the USA to the point where we have a US president who brags that he does not read, and regards the information from Fox and Friends as that of higher value than that from his own advisors.
Fox News created Idiocracy IRL. None of their hosts and contributors should feel comfortable in public. Either that or the public is still too complacent. Fox folks should not feel physically threatened, but they also should not feel comfortable.
If the US public does not remove Fox News from the equation then there will never be any progress. Therefore, I fully support yelling Fuck You at Tucker Carlson at every given chance.
Edit: see downthread regarding my thoughts on the idea that there may be more stinging rebukes than: “fuck you!” to people like Tucker Carlson.
I honestly would consider it harassment and not free speech. I'm aware American views/laws are different from Canada's, where I am. We don't have unrestricted free speech, so this maybe why my...
I honestly would consider it harassment and not free speech.
I'm aware American views/laws are different from Canada's, where I am. We don't have unrestricted free speech, so this maybe why my view is a bit different. I am not going to lose any sleep over this particular case, but I don't think it's right.
You know what, on the one hand I fear for Canada’s innocence between Doug Ford and Québécois nationalism... on the other hand, I love the civil attitude which the Canada I grew up knowing...
You know what, on the one hand I fear for Canada’s innocence between Doug Ford and Québécois nationalism... on the other hand, I love the civil attitude which the Canada I grew up knowing projects. Much like your comment.
Upon further reflection, yelling “Fuck You” at people like Carlson is barely productive. That gives the target an out. What would be much better is a stinging, thoughtful outburst. There should be an app for that. Maybe outfoxed.app or something. It shows you a list of Fox/rightwing a-holes, and the most most appropriate r/murderedbywords outburst. Lord knows I could use that type of thing, if I ever found myself in such a situation.
Edit: outfoxed.app should be a TelePrompTer/video recording app. The only question is where do you get the target-specific outburst data from?
Edit2: maybe the best TelePrompTer text would be the target’s own quote used against them? Like an Obama era quote simply repeated.
Like if you saw Mitch McConnell, you say: "One of my proudest moments was when I told Obama, 'You will not fill this Supreme Court vacancy,'"
While the app records his response?
This is pretty much where I stand. Without getting into too much of the grey area, I find it hard to define as "free speech" because it's a frustrated outlet and not constructive.
Upon further reflection, yelling “Fuck You” at people like Carlson is barely productive. That gives the target an out.
This is pretty much where I stand. Without getting into too much of the grey area, I find it hard to define as "free speech" because it's a frustrated outlet and not constructive.
Speech doesn't have to be constructive to be "free". Ex: most of carlson's rants on liberal scapegoats, the pastor at my old college campus who yelled at strangers saying they were doomed to an...
Speech doesn't have to be constructive to be "free". Ex: most of carlson's rants on liberal scapegoats, the pastor at my old college campus who yelled at strangers saying they were doomed to an eternity in hell. The line is drawn (at least in the US) when you threaten real, physical violence and/or slander people with things that aren't true. Telling a shitty tv host "fuck you" does neither of those, and the morality of it isn't a legal matter whatsoever. If someone walked up to him at a restaurant and threatened to harm his and/or his family, that would be a different story.
I don't disagree, and honestly am not really looking to get into a debate about free speech (Tildes had more than a few of these and I'm honestly sort of done with them on this platform). I just...
Speech doesn't have to be constructive to be "free".
I don't disagree, and honestly am not really looking to get into a debate about free speech (Tildes had more than a few of these and I'm honestly sort of done with them on this platform).
If someone walked up to him at a restaurant and threatened to harm his and/or his family, that would be a different story.
I just think yelling f-you to someone having dinner, and not in debate with them, is harassment, and can definitely be intimidating and threatening. Did he feel any of that? I don't know. I'm not defending that he can't be told off. I just don't believe anyone should be scared to dine out.
I don't believe that. I believe that people who are decent members of society deserve such things. I don't believe that fascist agitators should be treated with all the deference in the world....
I just don't believe anyone should be scared to dine out.
I don't believe that. I believe that people who are decent members of society deserve such things. I don't believe that fascist agitators should be treated with all the deference in the world. Nobody has threatened him that I know of (yet), it has just been people expressing their opinion of him.
If I was as poisonous to society as he is, I would completely understand lots of insults hurled my way when I went out in public. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
You can intimidate people all you want, as long as it isn't threatening physical violence. And the entire reason people are harassing him is because he himself yells at scapegoats on live...
You can intimidate people all you want, as long as it isn't threatening physical violence. And the entire reason people are harassing him is because he himself yells at scapegoats on live television and spreads extremely harmful propaganda. If he spent his time doing literally anything else, he wouldn't be harassed. He should take it as a social cue as to what he's doing to impressionable minds.
I struggle with this a bit. Like at some point that's not acceptable behavior... on the other hand in some cases it would be. I mean say you had the worst person ever - known child rapist for...
I struggle with this a bit. Like at some point that's not acceptable behavior... on the other hand in some cases it would be. I mean say you had the worst person ever - known child rapist for example - would it be acceptable for patrons of a restaurant to heckle them? Probably pretty reasonable IMO.
What I've landed on, is that I'm pretty OK with it. It's simply the inversion of fame - they're infamous. They're media personalities and politicians and signed up for fame, or infamy, and whatever it entails.
That doesn't mean I'd jump to do the same, and likely I think in many situations the hecklers should be the ones leaving the restaurant. It's telling that the infamy is so much that the restaurant owner is more OK with the media person leaving than asking the hecklers to go (or maybe they're doing both?).
Nah, assuming what he is saying to be true--always a huge question mark with Tucker--he's just reaping the benefits of the hateful, white supremacist rhetoric he peddles on a nightly basis. Say...
Nah, assuming what he is saying to be true--always a huge question mark with Tucker--he's just reaping the benefits of the hateful, white supremacist rhetoric he peddles on a nightly basis.
What's to stop anyone from weaponizing this kind of speech? A bunch of rapists could make it their mission to find everyone who speaks out against rape and follow them around and yell "fuck you"...
What's to stop anyone from weaponizing this kind of speech? A bunch of rapists could make it their mission to find everyone who speaks out against rape and follow them around and yell "fuck you" at them at restaurants.
Or, more likely, a bunch of conservatives might start yelling "fuck you" to Elizabeth warren for claiming indian ancestry or whatever political flavor of the month catches the public's attention.
Nothing has stopped people from doing this when they've made the "free speech" argument. The slope is pretty well defined already. I present to you the "Westboro Baptist Church" who is well known...
Nothing has stopped people from doing this when they've made the "free speech" argument. The slope is pretty well defined already.
I present to you the "Westboro Baptist Church" who is well known for protesting homosexuals at military funerals (for some reason).
To more seriously address your question, your hypothetical is mismatched with the reality of what's happening. These are NOT the same people following Tuckerson (or others around). These are randos that feel compelled to do these things. What you described is clearly defined as harassment.
Obviously, we're talking about two different sides of the political spectrum. Is it? I'm not keeping up with news enough to know for certain, but surely liberals are being harassed as well. And...
These are NOT the same people following Tuckerson (or others around).
Obviously, we're talking about two different sides of the political spectrum.
your hypothetical is mismatched with the reality of what's happening
Is it? I'm not keeping up with news enough to know for certain, but surely liberals are being harassed as well.
What you described is clearly defined as harassment.
And what transpired here is not? How do you know for certain it wasn't targeted?
I think you may have accidentally misread or misinterpreted what I wrote (or perhaps I was just very unclear). In your hypothetical it was the same people following someone around and heckling...
I think you may have accidentally misread or misinterpreted what I wrote (or perhaps I was just very unclear).
In your hypothetical it was the same people following someone around and heckling that person, which I think is pretty clearly harassment. In the news stories I've read, it's other patrons who happen to recognize the person, and then heckle them. No one is following Tucker from restaurant to restaurant to yell at him (that I know of). So my point was that the hypothetical is mismatched with the reality of what's happening in these situations.
How do you know for certain it wasn't targeted?
I don't of course. But it hasn't been reported as such that I'm aware of.
No I understood that you were talking about regular patrons versus targeted harassment, but it's not a huge jump to imagine that someone might weaponize this kind of behavior and do the latter. In...
No I understood that you were talking about regular patrons versus targeted harassment, but it's not a huge jump to imagine that someone might weaponize this kind of behavior and do the latter. In fact, you even provided an example of a group (WBC) where the reality does match the hypothetical.
It's not a slippery slope if it's already been figuratively slipped down. It's shitty behavior, but it's well-defined as being protected by the 1st amendment.
It's not a slippery slope if it's already been figuratively slipped down. It's shitty behavior, but it's well-defined as being protected by the 1st amendment.
Just because one person took the slide to the bottom doesn't mean we should push people towards the slide. It's shitty behavior and I'm not sure that we should be encouraging it. I never said...
Just because one person took the slide to the bottom doesn't mean we should push people towards the slide. It's shitty behavior and I'm not sure that we should be encouraging it.
That's been possible, and it hasn't happened. It's numbers. Rapists are terrible people and are far between. Even then most of them aren't open about it. If that happened there would be a bigger...
A bunch of rapists could make it their mission to find everyone who speaks out against rape and follow them around and yell "fuck you" at them at restaurants.
That's been possible, and it hasn't happened.
It's numbers. Rapists are terrible people and are far between. Even then most of them aren't open about it. If that happened there would be a bigger crowd calling them out.
On the other hand Tuckerson is a terrible person, so there are plenty of people willing to call him out on it and not expecting consequences for themselves because calling out an asshole isn't something socially ostracizing.
It's an extreme example meant to point out where this could head. More likely, conservatives might do the same to a liberal for a policy they don't agree with, like abortion.
That's been possible, and it hasn't happened.
It's an extreme example meant to point out where this could head. More likely, conservatives might do the same to a liberal for a policy they don't agree with, like abortion.
You mean like publishing the names, numbers, and home addresses of doctors who perform abortions and encouraging others to kill them? Because they already do that and 11 people have been murdered....
You mean like publishing the names, numbers, and home addresses of doctors who perform abortions and encouraging others to kill them? Because they already do that and 11 people have been murdered.
And how do you think people like this will react when an escalation like harassing them in public becomes more mainstream? As I said, it's a slippery slope.
And how do you think people like this will react when an escalation like harassing them in public becomes more mainstream?
yeah...I can see people feeling that way, I may, but ultimately I can't support it. I think we have to be careful on this line of thinking. If someone's a porn star, do they sign up for sexual...
yeah...I can see people feeling that way, I may, but ultimately I can't support it.
They're media personalities and politicians and signed up for fame, or infamy, and whatever it entails.
I think we have to be careful on this line of thinking. If someone's a porn star, do they sign up for sexual harassment/assault?
You're jumping a bit too far. Nobody sexually harassed or assaulted Tucker, they just forcefully told him what they think of him and his propaganda and lies.
You're jumping a bit too far. Nobody sexually harassed or assaulted Tucker, they just forcefully told him what they think of him and his propaganda and lies.
I don't see where what you quoted implied anyone signed up for sexual assault/harassment. Fame or infamy often implies being the center of attention when out in public - famous people get endless...
I don't see where what you quoted implied anyone signed up for sexual assault/harassment. Fame or infamy often implies being the center of attention when out in public - famous people get endless requests for selfies and microphones/cameras pointed at them 24/7, infamous people get "fuck you, asshole" shouted at them 24/7.
I'm at work and not going to look it up, but there's an issue where women in porn who are recognized in public are sexually assaulted/harassed. They are often grant no sympathy based on the...
I'm at work and not going to look it up, but there's an issue where women in porn who are recognized in public are sexually assaulted/harassed. They are often grant no sympathy based on the profession they chose.
I interpret the quote as someone basically saying someone deserves to be treated a certain way in public because of the job they chose. I know it happens in reality, but I also don't believe a movie star should be endlessly harassed when in public.
I'm not sure we do. Both harassment and assault are well defined by the law. Know that I don't condone the behavior, but I don't think it's the moral quandary that it's made out to be.
I think we have to be careful on this line of thinking. If someone's a porn star, do they sign up for sexual harassment/assault?
I'm not sure we do. Both harassment and assault are well defined by the law. Know that I don't condone the behavior, but I don't think it's the moral quandary that it's made out to be.
I think I may be a bit lost on your point that they're media personalities and politicians... Are you more saying something like "it's wrong, but it's not a big deal"?
I think I may be a bit lost on your point that they're media personalities and politicians...
Are you more saying something like "it's wrong, but it's not a big deal"?
Sure, I could have been more clear. I'm saying I think it's shitty behavior, but I think it's one of the MANY shitty behaviors that's protected under the first amendment.
Sure, I could have been more clear.
I'm saying I think it's shitty behavior, but I think it's one of the MANY shitty behaviors that's protected under the first amendment.
Well hen, if that's the case Tucker has a lawsuit on his hands, and I'm sure the ruling will be found in his favor by newly minted Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh.
Well hen, if that's the case Tucker has a lawsuit on his hands, and I'm sure the ruling will be found in his favor by newly minted Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh.
Fox news constantly tries to fabricate controversies, and label their political opponents in order to motivate their base. They are not a reputable news source, they are an echo chamber for...
Fox news constantly tries to fabricate controversies, and label their political opponents in order to motivate their base. They are not a reputable news source, they are an echo chamber for conservative talking points.
Side note: When did liberals stop being "snow flakes" and start being "Anti-fa" and "an unruly mob?" Does that make me an unruly snowflake? And when did being Anti Fascist become a bad thing?
Minor Technicality: "Fuck you" is the very definition of free speech. It's obnoxious, there can be severe consequences, but it is not a criminal offense in the USA.
Being overly aggressive is harassment and I'm pretty sure that's illegal. Not that I expect anyone to be arrested for yelling f-you. We only have his side, so I can't say whether what happened to...
Minor Technicality: "Fuck you" is the very definition of free speech. It's obnoxious, there can be severe consequences, but it is not a criminal offense in the USA.
Being overly aggressive is harassment and I'm pretty sure that's illegal. Not that I expect anyone to be arrested for yelling f-you. We only have his side, so I can't say whether what happened to him is or isn't harassment.
There's a reddit meme account called "This_Is_Why_Trump_Won" that blank posts whenever something like this is posted. It feels like a very fitting response to the article (especially the original...
There's a reddit meme account called "This_Is_Why_Trump_Won" that blank posts whenever something like this is posted. It feels like a very fitting response to the article (especially the original topic log title) if this weren't Tildes. Outside of debating the validity/morality of the tactic, I think that politically speaking, harassing opposing media figures and politicians is a great way to drive moderates, independents and the right further away from the left. (And vice versa, when done by the right.) At best it earns clap emojis from blue checkmarks on twitter, at worst it gives republicans a shiny new attack ad to run alongside clips of Maxine Waters encouraging harassment.
Exactly. I think it's important to recognize why he was telling this story on a podcast. It's not something that just happened to casually come up, there's a specific message it's trying to get...
Exactly. I think it's important to recognize why he was telling this story on a podcast. It's not something that just happened to casually come up, there's a specific message it's trying to get across. It's not even necessarily a true story.
To be clear, he was sharing this story on the National Review podcast in an effort to garner sympathy from the Rich Lowery crowd and feed the "Democrats are a bunch of lawless Antifa thugs"...
To be clear, he was sharing this story on the National Review podcast in an effort to garner sympathy from the Rich Lowery crowd and feed the "Democrats are a bunch of lawless Antifa thugs" argument.
Consider: there has been no footage of Tucker being yelled at in public as were the heads of the EPA and DHS. The only proof we have that Tucker is being heckled or yelled at in public is that he said so. And considering the fact that he has a long record of being a proven liar, forgive me if I don't exactly take him at his word.
Which is why I altered the headline of my post to read that poor Tucker doesn't know the meaning of takeaway. If facing the consequences of his exercising fee speech is making him feel uncomfortable, well then that's too bad. He should just order his food to go, have a staffer pick it up and leave decent people alone to enjoy their meal without being bothered by his presence.
, I think that politically speaking, harassing opposing media figures and politicians is a great way to drive moderates, independents and the right further away from the left.
I couldn't disagree more. Where are these moderate voters? Why would they driven to the right, the side that for the past ten years has been defined by its lack of decorum, its unfactual attacks,...
I couldn't disagree more. Where are these moderate voters? Why would they driven to the right, the side that for the past ten years has been defined by its lack of decorum, its unfactual attacks, and its commitment to winning at any cost?
These moderate voters that are turned off by right wing figures being heckled at restaurants but just honky dory with Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer outright beating the shit out of protesters or...
These moderate voters that are turned off by right wing figures being heckled at restaurants but just honky dory with Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer outright beating the shit out of protesters or threatening them with guns don't sound so moderate or like anyone I want on my side.
They may not, but I think they do. I know plenty of people who voted Obama in 08 and Romney in 12. I have conservative friends that agree on many liberal points and vice versa.
They may not, but I think they do. I know plenty of people who voted Obama in 08 and Romney in 12. I have conservative friends that agree on many liberal points and vice versa.
Just as long as the right continues to point out that how the press is the enemy of the people. And call politicians such names as "Pocahontas" and "Crooked Hillary." My understanding from the...
Just as long as the right continues to point out that how the press is the enemy of the people.
And call politicians such names as "Pocahontas" and "Crooked Hillary."
My understanding from the argument stated here is that this is a recipe for electoral success this fall, correct? Such actions will result in a successful #walkaway movement and a #RedWave? Clearly, only conservatives can attack media figures and politicians without ny electoral consequences. Or something.
I think you're coming at this from a very partisan place. I didn't make any of the claims that you seem to think that I made. This type of heckling plays into a narrative the Right has been...
I think you're coming at this from a very partisan place. I didn't make any of the claims that you seem to think that I made.
This type of heckling plays into a narrative the Right has been weaving for a long, long time - that Democrats are rude, that they whine when they don't get their way, that protest is anti-American. That narrative motivates their base and dissuades them from drifting to a more moderate place (or from moderates from going left).
So the heckling helps the Right more than it does the Left I think.
I personally hope very much for a blue wave this fall.
I couldn't disagree more. Rolling over, playing nice, behaving like adults, courting moderates and independents, being bipartisan, etc. have been practiced by the Democrats my entire lifetime. And...
I couldn't disagree more.
Rolling over, playing nice, behaving like adults, courting moderates and independents, being bipartisan, etc. have been practiced by the Democrats my entire lifetime. And after every single incident/election/movement, the right/GOP get worse, the US gets dragged farther right to crazytown, and the mythical "moderates and independents" never appear.
I have exactly 0 appetite to continue this folly of appeasement.
to be honest i don't necessarily buy that anything of this sort is ever a big driver of people one way or another. the media might make it out that way, but generally speaking, the media is a...
Outside of debating the validity/morality of the tactic, I think that politically speaking, harassing opposing media figures and politicians is a great way to drive moderates, independents and the right further away from the left. (And vice versa, when done by the right.) At best it earns clap emojis from blue checkmarks on twitter, at worst it gives republicans a shiny new attack ad to run alongside clips of Maxine Waters encouraging harassment.
to be honest i don't necessarily buy that anything of this sort is ever a big driver of people one way or another. the media might make it out that way, but generally speaking, the media is a pretty awful measure of what matters and what people actually care about. at most i could see a story like this pushing some people already leaning to a side further along--to most undecided people though, things like this seldom seem to register or matter, and most partisans will obviously never be swayed.
Wow the title of this post is derogative, and the white supremacist tag seems out of place. I can't say that I know all that much about Tucker Carlson as a person, but this article paints him as a...
Wow the title of this post is derogative, and the white supremacist tag seems out of place. I can't say that I know all that much about Tucker Carlson as a person, but this article paints him as a moderate conservative dealing with hate speech and open threats when appearing in public places, seemingly as a result of the ever increasing polarization of politics in the US.
OP, are you suggesting that he simply avoid the public and get his meals "to go" so he doesn't have to face harassment? Or is the harassment deserved in your opinion?
Agreed - I changed the title back to the article's, and removed the tag. Tempted to just remove the post entirely, doesn't seem like much of a story to me.
Agreed - I changed the title back to the article's, and removed the tag. Tempted to just remove the post entirely, doesn't seem like much of a story to me.
If I had lots of strangers yelling "fuck you" at me every time I went out in public, I might take that as an opportunity for self-reflection. Did I do something to piss them off? Is it possible that their anger at me is justified by something I did or said?
Humans are social animals. If a chimpanzee does something that violates the group dynamics of that troop, you can bet the other chimpanzees are going to yell at it.
incidentally related to your point here is that, while it's not exactly elegant, sometimes direct confrontation of this sort in public is the only real avenue by which you can challenge a viewpoint or speak your mind to someone. if, say, your congressmember isn't taking calls, won't do town halls, and refuses to meet with constituents, what else can you do but something like this to speak your mind? i think sometimes people gloss over or miss some of the factors which play into a confrontation of the sort Carlson describes.
Good point. My senator hasn't held townhalls since Trump was elected and only meets with prescreened constituents. Phone calls go to voicemail or interns (which is normal I think).
I don't believe anyone should be harassed. Having someone scream "F*** you!" while you're trying to eat is not free speech.
Tucker is a professional troll who uses the language of white supremacy to frame conservative talking points. That is his right, I suppose. I certainly won't shed a tear that he can't eat out anymore. Boohoo, the rich old white guy can't say whatever he wants with no consequences.
Tucker Carlson is a fascist and should be treated as such.
Liberals (in the "I don't like what you say but I'll defend your right to say it" way) are always undermined by the fascists because they assume the fascists hold their same values–they do not. Tucker Carlson may whine that he gets heckled in public, something liberals may find abhorrent, it's an affront to free speech! But Carlson does not care about free speech, he only cares that he is facing consequences for his speech. He would be the first to celebrate a Marxist being similarly heckled by conservatives.
I believe this kind of public humiliation is the only tool we really have to combat fascism while staying somewhat within the liberal framework the majority of the West is comfortable with–the alternatives are censoring them or allowing fascism to grow to a point where armed conflict becomes the only possible resolution.
Amen. It's time to stop being "good Germans"
It is exactly free speech, isn’t it? It might be very rude, and might make me cringe if I was a random patron at the same restaurant, but it is free speech. There is nothing illegal about it, correct?
Mr Carlson works for Fox News. His network has systemically destroyed our 4th estate, led America to believe that Iraq was responsible for 9/11, which led to hundreds of thousands of needless deaths, and ISIS. Fox has misinformed and scared the crap out of half of the USA to the point where we have a US president who brags that he does not read, and regards the information from Fox and Friends as that of higher value than that from his own advisors.
Fox News created Idiocracy IRL. None of their hosts and contributors should feel comfortable in public. Either that or the public is still too complacent. Fox folks should not feel physically threatened, but they also should not feel comfortable.
If the US public does not remove Fox News from the equation then there will never be any progress. Therefore, I fully support yelling Fuck You at Tucker Carlson at every given chance.
Edit: see downthread regarding my thoughts on the idea that there may be more stinging rebukes than: “fuck you!” to people like Tucker Carlson.
I honestly would consider it harassment and not free speech.
I'm aware American views/laws are different from Canada's, where I am. We don't have unrestricted free speech, so this maybe why my view is a bit different. I am not going to lose any sleep over this particular case, but I don't think it's right.
You know what, on the one hand I fear for Canada’s innocence between Doug Ford and Québécois nationalism... on the other hand, I love the civil attitude which the Canada I grew up knowing projects. Much like your comment.
Upon further reflection, yelling “Fuck You” at people like Carlson is barely productive. That gives the target an out. What would be much better is a stinging, thoughtful outburst. There should be an app for that. Maybe outfoxed.app or something. It shows you a list of Fox/rightwing a-holes, and the most most appropriate r/murderedbywords outburst. Lord knows I could use that type of thing, if I ever found myself in such a situation.
Edit: outfoxed.app should be a TelePrompTer/video recording app. The only question is where do you get the target-specific outburst data from?
Edit2: maybe the best TelePrompTer text would be the target’s own quote used against them? Like an Obama era quote simply repeated.
Like if you saw Mitch McConnell, you say: "One of my proudest moments was when I told Obama, 'You will not fill this Supreme Court vacancy,'"
While the app records his response?
This is pretty much where I stand. Without getting into too much of the grey area, I find it hard to define as "free speech" because it's a frustrated outlet and not constructive.
Speech doesn't have to be constructive to be "free". Ex: most of carlson's rants on liberal scapegoats, the pastor at my old college campus who yelled at strangers saying they were doomed to an eternity in hell. The line is drawn (at least in the US) when you threaten real, physical violence and/or slander people with things that aren't true. Telling a shitty tv host "fuck you" does neither of those, and the morality of it isn't a legal matter whatsoever. If someone walked up to him at a restaurant and threatened to harm his and/or his family, that would be a different story.
I don't disagree, and honestly am not really looking to get into a debate about free speech (Tildes had more than a few of these and I'm honestly sort of done with them on this platform).
I just think yelling f-you to someone having dinner, and not in debate with them, is harassment, and can definitely be intimidating and threatening. Did he feel any of that? I don't know. I'm not defending that he can't be told off. I just don't believe anyone should be scared to dine out.
I don't believe that. I believe that people who are decent members of society deserve such things. I don't believe that fascist agitators should be treated with all the deference in the world. Nobody has threatened him that I know of (yet), it has just been people expressing their opinion of him.
If I was as poisonous to society as he is, I would completely understand lots of insults hurled my way when I went out in public. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
You can intimidate people all you want, as long as it isn't threatening physical violence. And the entire reason people are harassing him is because he himself yells at scapegoats on live television and spreads extremely harmful propaganda. If he spent his time doing literally anything else, he wouldn't be harassed. He should take it as a social cue as to what he's doing to impressionable minds.
I struggle with this a bit. Like at some point that's not acceptable behavior... on the other hand in some cases it would be. I mean say you had the worst person ever - known child rapist for example - would it be acceptable for patrons of a restaurant to heckle them? Probably pretty reasonable IMO.
What I've landed on, is that I'm pretty OK with it. It's simply the inversion of fame - they're infamous. They're media personalities and politicians and signed up for fame, or infamy, and whatever it entails.
That doesn't mean I'd jump to do the same, and likely I think in many situations the hecklers should be the ones leaving the restaurant. It's telling that the infamy is so much that the restaurant owner is more OK with the media person leaving than asking the hecklers to go (or maybe they're doing both?).
Nah, assuming what he is saying to be true--always a huge question mark with Tucker--he's just reaping the benefits of the hateful, white supremacist rhetoric he peddles on a nightly basis.
Say stupid things, win stupid prizes.
What's to stop anyone from weaponizing this kind of speech? A bunch of rapists could make it their mission to find everyone who speaks out against rape and follow them around and yell "fuck you" at them at restaurants.
Or, more likely, a bunch of conservatives might start yelling "fuck you" to Elizabeth warren for claiming indian ancestry or whatever political flavor of the month catches the public's attention.
It's a slippery slope
Nothing has stopped people from doing this when they've made the "free speech" argument. The slope is pretty well defined already.
I present to you the "Westboro Baptist Church" who is well known for protesting homosexuals at military funerals (for some reason).
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
To more seriously address your question, your hypothetical is mismatched with the reality of what's happening. These are NOT the same people following Tuckerson (or others around). These are randos that feel compelled to do these things. What you described is clearly defined as harassment.
So I don't think that slope is all that slippery.
Obviously, we're talking about two different sides of the political spectrum.
Is it? I'm not keeping up with news enough to know for certain, but surely liberals are being harassed as well.
And what transpired here is not? How do you know for certain it wasn't targeted?
I think you may have accidentally misread or misinterpreted what I wrote (or perhaps I was just very unclear).
In your hypothetical it was the same people following someone around and heckling that person, which I think is pretty clearly harassment. In the news stories I've read, it's other patrons who happen to recognize the person, and then heckle them. No one is following Tucker from restaurant to restaurant to yell at him (that I know of). So my point was that the hypothetical is mismatched with the reality of what's happening in these situations.
I don't of course. But it hasn't been reported as such that I'm aware of.
No I understood that you were talking about regular patrons versus targeted harassment, but it's not a huge jump to imagine that someone might weaponize this kind of behavior and do the latter. In fact, you even provided an example of a group (WBC) where the reality does match the hypothetical.
It's not a slippery slope if it's already been figuratively slipped down. It's shitty behavior, but it's well-defined as being protected by the 1st amendment.
Just because one person took the slide to the bottom doesn't mean we should push people towards the slide. It's shitty behavior and I'm not sure that we should be encouraging it.
I never said anything about the 1st amendment.
Sorry. Getting my threads crossed.
Yes, we're in agreement on that.
That's been possible, and it hasn't happened.
It's numbers. Rapists are terrible people and are far between. Even then most of them aren't open about it. If that happened there would be a bigger crowd calling them out.
On the other hand Tuckerson is a terrible person, so there are plenty of people willing to call him out on it and not expecting consequences for themselves because calling out an asshole isn't something socially ostracizing.
It's an extreme example meant to point out where this could head. More likely, conservatives might do the same to a liberal for a policy they don't agree with, like abortion.
You mean like publishing the names, numbers, and home addresses of doctors who perform abortions and encouraging others to kill them? Because they already do that and 11 people have been murdered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_States
Scroll down to the "Physician "wanted" posters" section for more info directly related to my comment.
And how do you think people like this will react when an escalation like harassing them in public becomes more mainstream?
As I said, it's a slippery slope.
yeah...I can see people feeling that way, I may, but ultimately I can't support it.
I think we have to be careful on this line of thinking. If someone's a porn star, do they sign up for sexual harassment/assault?
You're jumping a bit too far. Nobody sexually harassed or assaulted Tucker, they just forcefully told him what they think of him and his propaganda and lies.
I didn't suggest someone did. My comment was in response to the part I quoted specifically.
I don't see where what you quoted implied anyone signed up for sexual assault/harassment. Fame or infamy often implies being the center of attention when out in public - famous people get endless requests for selfies and microphones/cameras pointed at them 24/7, infamous people get "fuck you, asshole" shouted at them 24/7.
I'm at work and not going to look it up, but there's an issue where women in porn who are recognized in public are sexually assaulted/harassed. They are often grant no sympathy based on the profession they chose.
I interpret the quote as someone basically saying someone deserves to be treated a certain way in public because of the job they chose. I know it happens in reality, but I also don't believe a movie star should be endlessly harassed when in public.
I'm not sure we do. Both harassment and assault are well defined by the law. Know that I don't condone the behavior, but I don't think it's the moral quandary that it's made out to be.
I think I may be a bit lost on your point that they're media personalities and politicians...
Are you more saying something like "it's wrong, but it's not a big deal"?
Sure, I could have been more clear.
I'm saying I think it's shitty behavior, but I think it's one of the MANY shitty behaviors that's protected under the first amendment.
Thanks for clarifying.
Well hen, if that's the case Tucker has a lawsuit on his hands, and I'm sure the ruling will be found in his favor by newly minted Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh.
Fox news constantly tries to fabricate controversies, and label their political opponents in order to motivate their base. They are not a reputable news source, they are an echo chamber for conservative talking points.
Side note: When did liberals stop being "snow flakes" and start being "Anti-fa" and "an unruly mob?" Does that make me an unruly snowflake? And when did being Anti Fascist become a bad thing?
Minor Technicality: "Fuck you" is the very definition of free speech. It's obnoxious, there can be severe consequences, but it is not a criminal offense in the USA.
Being overly aggressive is harassment and I'm pretty sure that's illegal. Not that I expect anyone to be arrested for yelling f-you. We only have his side, so I can't say whether what happened to him is or isn't harassment.
There's a reddit meme account called "This_Is_Why_Trump_Won" that blank posts whenever something like this is posted. It feels like a very fitting response to the article (especially the original topic log title) if this weren't Tildes. Outside of debating the validity/morality of the tactic, I think that politically speaking, harassing opposing media figures and politicians is a great way to drive moderates, independents and the right further away from the left. (And vice versa, when done by the right.) At best it earns clap emojis from blue checkmarks on twitter, at worst it gives republicans a shiny new attack ad to run alongside clips of Maxine Waters encouraging harassment.
Exactly. I think it's important to recognize why he was telling this story on a podcast. It's not something that just happened to casually come up, there's a specific message it's trying to get across. It's not even necessarily a true story.
To be clear, he was sharing this story on the National Review podcast in an effort to garner sympathy from the Rich Lowery crowd and feed the "Democrats are a bunch of lawless Antifa thugs" argument.
Consider: there has been no footage of Tucker being yelled at in public as were the heads of the EPA and DHS. The only proof we have that Tucker is being heckled or yelled at in public is that he said so. And considering the fact that he has a long record of being a proven liar, forgive me if I don't exactly take him at his word.
Which is why I altered the headline of my post to read that poor Tucker doesn't know the meaning of takeaway. If facing the consequences of his exercising fee speech is making him feel uncomfortable, well then that's too bad. He should just order his food to go, have a staffer pick it up and leave decent people alone to enjoy their meal without being bothered by his presence.
I couldn't agree more.
I couldn't disagree more. Where are these moderate voters? Why would they driven to the right, the side that for the past ten years has been defined by its lack of decorum, its unfactual attacks, and its commitment to winning at any cost?
I don't think they exist.
These moderate voters that are turned off by right wing figures being heckled at restaurants but just honky dory with Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer outright beating the shit out of protesters or threatening them with guns don't sound so moderate or like anyone I want on my side.
They may not, but I think they do. I know plenty of people who voted Obama in 08 and Romney in 12. I have conservative friends that agree on many liberal points and vice versa.
Just as long as the right continues to point out that how the press is the enemy of the people.
And call politicians such names as "Pocahontas" and "Crooked Hillary."
My understanding from the argument stated here is that this is a recipe for electoral success this fall, correct? Such actions will result in a successful #walkaway movement and a #RedWave? Clearly, only conservatives can attack media figures and politicians without ny electoral consequences. Or something.
I think you're coming at this from a very partisan place. I didn't make any of the claims that you seem to think that I made.
This type of heckling plays into a narrative the Right has been weaving for a long, long time - that Democrats are rude, that they whine when they don't get their way, that protest is anti-American. That narrative motivates their base and dissuades them from drifting to a more moderate place (or from moderates from going left).
So the heckling helps the Right more than it does the Left I think.
I personally hope very much for a blue wave this fall.
I couldn't disagree more.
Rolling over, playing nice, behaving like adults, courting moderates and independents, being bipartisan, etc. have been practiced by the Democrats my entire lifetime. And after every single incident/election/movement, the right/GOP get worse, the US gets dragged farther right to crazytown, and the mythical "moderates and independents" never appear.
I have exactly 0 appetite to continue this folly of appeasement.
to be honest i don't necessarily buy that anything of this sort is ever a big driver of people one way or another. the media might make it out that way, but generally speaking, the media is a pretty awful measure of what matters and what people actually care about. at most i could see a story like this pushing some people already leaning to a side further along--to most undecided people though, things like this seldom seem to register or matter, and most partisans will obviously never be swayed.
Wow the title of this post is derogative, and the white supremacist tag seems out of place. I can't say that I know all that much about Tucker Carlson as a person, but this article paints him as a moderate conservative dealing with hate speech and open threats when appearing in public places, seemingly as a result of the ever increasing polarization of politics in the US.
OP, are you suggesting that he simply avoid the public and get his meals "to go" so he doesn't have to face harassment? Or is the harassment deserved in your opinion?
Agreed - I changed the title back to the article's, and removed the tag. Tempted to just remove the post entirely, doesn't seem like much of a story to me.
I love that they're being harassed. I find some of the opinions expressed here as to why it's a good thing stupid, though.