I don't even understand what the flight attendants where trying to achieve by double checking the id. I doubt their guidelines required verifying an id. It just comes off as racist. I'm also not...
I don't even understand what the flight attendants where trying to achieve by double checking the id. I doubt their guidelines required verifying an id. It just comes off as racist.
I'm also not sure that removing id checks was the right move, it's not really the reason they questioned this doctor and I don't see how not having that policy would have prevented them from questioning the doc.
Id check seem like a reasonable idea, you don't want someone stepping up to the doctor role if they are not qualified, if anything because it stops the search for someone that's actually qualified.
I don't totally disagree, but I'm just wondering, how often do doctors carry ID. She mentioned in the article that she specifically carries it for if someone questions her. Is it normal enough for...
Id check seem like a reasonable idea, you don't want someone stepping up to the doctor role if they are not qualified, if anything because it stops the search for someone that's actually qualified.
I don't totally disagree, but I'm just wondering, how often do doctors carry ID. She mentioned in the article that she specifically carries it for if someone questions her. Is it normal enough for most doctors to carry to begin with?
Yeah I've got no idea, though I imagine that kind of news would travel quickly in doctor email chains, also if they buy a ticket using Dr. as their title, the site could display a note reminding...
Yeah I've got no idea, though I imagine that kind of news would travel quickly in doctor email chains, also if they buy a ticket using Dr. as their title, the site could display a note reminding them.
I think worst case if the doctor looks like they know what they are doing and no one else is stepping up, then having an id check rule – it doesn't specify that they should not help or stop what they are doing – has done it's job, i.e. finding the most qualified person available.
Doctors are normally registered, and can provide details of the registration when asked. Here's one example of a UK doctor being asked for their GMC (general medical council) registration:...
Doctors are normally registered, and can provide details of the registration when asked.
There have been quite a few discussions over the years regarding differences in treatment between disadvantaged groups and their white male colleagues. A very simple example is the difference in...
Exemplary
There have been quite a few discussions over the years regarding differences in treatment between disadvantaged groups and their white male colleagues. A very simple example is the difference in perceptions of competence when an email is signed with a "female" name vs. a "male" name, and how the person on the other end responds to those perceptions.
In general, certain traits are often perceived (wrongly, of course) as being "inferior", and being under the umbrella of "not white" instantly thrusts you in that category. It's ridiculous, childish, and stupid, but unfortunately racism didn't suddenly die out with the civil rights act of 1964.
While I can understand where you're coming from, I think that with everything that has happened in U.S. politics over the last few years in particular, it's far safer to apply the principle of Occam's razor and realize that this really is racial profiling and is simply symptomatic of the racial tensions that have plagued this country for a very, very long time.
I would like to make it clear that I don't necessarily disagree with the argument that credentials should be provided as a general rule across all instances. I'm simply addressing what makes up...
I would like to make it clear that I don't necessarily disagree with the argument that credentials should be provided as a general rule across all instances. I'm simply addressing what makes up the bulk of your original comment, which is the concern over whether or not this is simply an anecdote or if white doctors generally avoid the scrutiny that non-white doctors are given, and my argument is that there is a general trend of racial profiling.
The two subjects have some overlap, but they're also completely separate, distinct issues. My addressing one does not mean that I've made an argument for or against the other :)
My original reply was meant to address those specific kinds of questions. As a general rule, if you're not a white male then you will have your credentials come into question. Your qualifications...
My original reply was meant to address those specific kinds of questions. As a general rule, if you're not a white male then you will have your credentials come into question. Your qualifications instantly fall under scrutiny. When you're a white male, however, the same (generally) cannot be said. This is the point that I wanted to make.
An important point to keep in mind is that data for these specific circumstances is often non-existent. Instead, you have to rely on either tangential data from a different situation, or anecdotes, or both. This makes it difficult to point to a nice, easy source and say "here's the data on airlines and whether or not their staff question doctors about their credentials, separated by race".
Given that limitation, we have to rely on a combination of historical (including present) data regarding discrimination in workplace environments and toward professionals on a racial profiling basis, and parallels derived from anecdotes in similar but not-quite-the-same situations. In other words, we need to be able to ask "is there a trend of racial profiling like this in general?" and "if so, does it appear that the same could be happening to doctors on airlines?".
Honestly, I don't have the energy or the inclination to dig up sources with specific figures to answer those questions. I'll let someone else do the leg work on that if they feel inclined to do so. Instead, I'm just going to refer back to my original comment regarding the political environment of the last few years in particular, the historical racism that has plagued this country, the existence of preexisting discussions regarding workplace discrimination, and the principle of Occam's razor: it's far more likely that a systemic, long-standing issue with workplace discrimination also affects non-white doctors on planes than it is that white doctors simply aren't speaking up.
The Devil's Advocate in me was considering something like this in the first couple of paragraphs of the article. When the second flight attendant also asked for ID, I was like, "Okay, this is at...
The Devil's Advocate in me was considering something like this in the first couple of paragraphs of the article. When the second flight attendant also asked for ID, I was like, "Okay, this is at best, a bad miscommunication."
When both flight attendants who had both been shown credentials came back and continued to ask a series of pointed and nonsensical questions, this becomes an exceptional anecdote regardless of race.
Anecdotally, I'm white, and no one has ever questioned me when I said I was an EMT back when I used to do that. I never intervened with anyone on a flight, however, and I can understand 9-11...
Anecdotally, I'm white, and no one has ever questioned me when I said I was an EMT back when I used to do that. I never intervened with anyone on a flight, however, and I can understand 9-11 paranoia leading to flight attendants and other workers to be more "careful" about potential impostors.
Honestly though, why would you even question whether someone was a doctor or not? No one else is stepping up to help out.
Given that medical emergencies are often life or death where seconds count, I personally don't want a doctor to have to stop giving me CPR to show off his license to someone else just because...
Given that medical emergencies are often life or death where seconds count, I personally don't want a doctor to have to stop giving me CPR to show off his license to someone else just because there's an infinitesimal chance he's impersonating a doctor.
I feel like you missed the part of the article where Delta said they changed their policies two years ago and now people claiming to be doctors are not asked to provide ID. I think you're also...
I feel like you missed the part of the article where Delta said they changed their policies two years ago and now people claiming to be doctors are not asked to provide ID.
I think you're also missing the enhanced scrutiny this doctor faced. She did provide her ID, and she still wasn't believed.
I don't even understand what the flight attendants where trying to achieve by double checking the id. I doubt their guidelines required verifying an id. It just comes off as racist.
I'm also not sure that removing id checks was the right move, it's not really the reason they questioned this doctor and I don't see how not having that policy would have prevented them from questioning the doc.
Id check seem like a reasonable idea, you don't want someone stepping up to the doctor role if they are not qualified, if anything because it stops the search for someone that's actually qualified.
I don't totally disagree, but I'm just wondering, how often do doctors carry ID. She mentioned in the article that she specifically carries it for if someone questions her. Is it normal enough for most doctors to carry to begin with?
Yeah I've got no idea, though I imagine that kind of news would travel quickly in doctor email chains, also if they buy a ticket using Dr. as their title, the site could display a note reminding them.
I think worst case if the doctor looks like they know what they are doing and no one else is stepping up, then having an id check rule – it doesn't specify that they should not help or stop what they are doing – has done it's job, i.e. finding the most qualified person available.
Doctors are normally registered, and can provide details of the registration when asked.
Here's one example of a UK doctor being asked for their GMC (general medical council) registration: https://twitter.com/c_johnstone1980/status/1058052572727164929
There have been quite a few discussions over the years regarding differences in treatment between disadvantaged groups and their white male colleagues. A very simple example is the difference in perceptions of competence when an email is signed with a "female" name vs. a "male" name, and how the person on the other end responds to those perceptions.
In general, certain traits are often perceived (wrongly, of course) as being "inferior", and being under the umbrella of "not white" instantly thrusts you in that category. It's ridiculous, childish, and stupid, but unfortunately racism didn't suddenly die out with the civil rights act of 1964.
While I can understand where you're coming from, I think that with everything that has happened in U.S. politics over the last few years in particular, it's far safer to apply the principle of Occam's razor and realize that this really is racial profiling and is simply symptomatic of the racial tensions that have plagued this country for a very, very long time.
I would like to make it clear that I don't necessarily disagree with the argument that credentials should be provided as a general rule across all instances. I'm simply addressing what makes up the bulk of your original comment, which is the concern over whether or not this is simply an anecdote or if white doctors generally avoid the scrutiny that non-white doctors are given, and my argument is that there is a general trend of racial profiling.
The two subjects have some overlap, but they're also completely separate, distinct issues. My addressing one does not mean that I've made an argument for or against the other :)
My original reply was meant to address those specific kinds of questions. As a general rule, if you're not a white male then you will have your credentials come into question. Your qualifications instantly fall under scrutiny. When you're a white male, however, the same (generally) cannot be said. This is the point that I wanted to make.
An important point to keep in mind is that data for these specific circumstances is often non-existent. Instead, you have to rely on either tangential data from a different situation, or anecdotes, or both. This makes it difficult to point to a nice, easy source and say "here's the data on airlines and whether or not their staff question doctors about their credentials, separated by race".
Given that limitation, we have to rely on a combination of historical (including present) data regarding discrimination in workplace environments and toward professionals on a racial profiling basis, and parallels derived from anecdotes in similar but not-quite-the-same situations. In other words, we need to be able to ask "is there a trend of racial profiling like this in general?" and "if so, does it appear that the same could be happening to doctors on airlines?".
Honestly, I don't have the energy or the inclination to dig up sources with specific figures to answer those questions. I'll let someone else do the leg work on that if they feel inclined to do so. Instead, I'm just going to refer back to my original comment regarding the political environment of the last few years in particular, the historical racism that has plagued this country, the existence of preexisting discussions regarding workplace discrimination, and the principle of Occam's razor: it's far more likely that a systemic, long-standing issue with workplace discrimination also affects non-white doctors on planes than it is that white doctors simply aren't speaking up.
The Devil's Advocate in me was considering something like this in the first couple of paragraphs of the article. When the second flight attendant also asked for ID, I was like, "Okay, this is at best, a bad miscommunication."
When both flight attendants who had both been shown credentials came back and continued to ask a series of pointed and nonsensical questions, this becomes an exceptional anecdote regardless of race.
Anecdotally, I'm white, and no one has ever questioned me when I said I was an EMT back when I used to do that. I never intervened with anyone on a flight, however, and I can understand 9-11 paranoia leading to flight attendants and other workers to be more "careful" about potential impostors.
Honestly though, why would you even question whether someone was a doctor or not? No one else is stepping up to help out.
I think you're imagining a problem that doesn't exist or is so rare that you're more likely for your plane to crash than for it to happen to you.
Given that medical emergencies are often life or death where seconds count, I personally don't want a doctor to have to stop giving me CPR to show off his license to someone else just because there's an infinitesimal chance he's impersonating a doctor.
While I agree, I feel like I've never seen such a common sense policy anywhere.
I feel like you missed the part of the article where Delta said they changed their policies two years ago and now people claiming to be doctors are not asked to provide ID.
I think you're also missing the enhanced scrutiny this doctor faced. She did provide her ID, and she still wasn't believed.