10 votes

How ‘never Bernie’ voters threw in with Biden and changed the primary

22 comments

  1. [16]
    dubteedub
    Link
    I think this article does a good job of getting into the heads of the voters of the anti-Bernie bloc. Some of them dislike the man because they viewed his campaign as divisive in 2016 against...

    But beyond ideology, race and turnout, a chief reason for Mr. Biden’s success has little to do with his candidacy. He became a vehicle for Democrats like Ms. King who were supporting other candidates but found the prospect of Mr. Sanders and his calls for political revolution so distasteful that they put aside misgivings about Mr. Biden and backed him instead.

    I think this article does a good job of getting into the heads of the voters of the anti-Bernie bloc. Some of them dislike the man because they viewed his campaign as divisive in 2016 against Hillary that hurt her chances in the general election. Others believe that Biden would better appeal to the general electorate than Sanders. Others say that they accept his beliefs, but reject his political style.

    Personally, I think a lot of these issues stem from Bernie being particularly ill-served by a campaign staff that want to attack other Democrats and the party establishment, continuing to present Bernie as an indepent and aggressive outsider, rather than someone who could unite and lead the Democratic party.

    I think this section of the article lays it out well.

    Progressive groups have been left to lament what could have been, and some have openly questioned the outreach strategy of the Democrats’ left flank. Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York said recently that some on the left were too focused on “conflict.” Sean McElwee, a founder of the progressive think tank Data for Progress, said progressives must couple their desire to change the scope of the Democratic electorate with regular efforts at political persuasion.

    “It cannot be a hostile takeover,” Mr. McElwee said. “We have to persuade people in the Democratic Party that our ideas are good ones and we’ll make the world a better place.”

    10 votes
    1. [10]
      The_Fad
      Link Parent
      I don't believe it has as much to do with convincing centrist and center-left dems of the value of the "far" left's ideas as Mr. McElwee would imply. The majority of Dems already agree with many...

      I don't believe it has as much to do with convincing centrist and center-left dems of the value of the "far" left's ideas as Mr. McElwee would imply. The majority of Dems already agree with many (thought not all) of the policies Bernie touts as is evidenced by the shifting policy landscape of the party and the large amounts of support both Bernie and Warren were getting prior to the consolidation.

      The issue with Bernie specifically is they don't like that he comes off so aggressive in general, as the article mentioned. He could be preaching to their choir specifically and they would still avoid him because this isn't about choosing who would best help the American people anymore (if it ever really was), this is about what's going to make them feel the safest.

      Not that I can blame them. Times are rough; choosing the option you view as safest (whether it actually is the safest or not) during rough times is Humanity 101. Doesn't make it any less asinine though.

      11 votes
      1. [9]
        Loire
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I think you are on track but you miss some of the point by trying to narrow it down so far to a matter of "safety". Yes Bernie's ideas, for the most part, would be best for America but that is not...

        I think you are on track but you miss some of the point by trying to narrow it down so far to a matter of "safety". Yes Bernie's ideas, for the most part, would be best for America but that is not the be all and end all of the presidency. If Sanders was elected president tomorrow that wouldn't mean a single one of his ideas becomes effect. He could be given a Democratic Senate and there is still going to be an incredible uphill battle to get any major changes through the system.

        Voters still have to consider which candidate will be the most effective within the political system we have. Like it or not Sanders has not proven himself on that matter, Biden is the clear cut winner there.

        8 votes
        1. [5]
          nacho
          Link Parent
          I think you're 100% on the money here. I think many people go even further: The decades of voting history many Sanders' supporters tout as a strong and good record, unwavering principles and being...

          If Sanders was elected president tomorrow that wouldn't mean a single one of his ideas becomes effect. He could be given a Democratic Senate and there is still going to be an incredible uphill battle to get any major changes through the system.
          Voters still have to consider which candidate will be the most effective within the political system we have. Like it or not Sanders has not proven himself on that matter, Biden is the clear cut winner there.

          I think you're 100% on the money here. I think many people go even further:

          The decades of voting history many Sanders' supporters tout as a strong and good record, unwavering principles and being on the right side of history, betray his lack of political ability to get things done.

          Sanders has for decades showed he's unwilling to compromise to change the law for the better because those suggested compromises aren't perfectly in line with his primary political standpoint.

          Being president is all about brokering compromise to get laws enacted. Sanders has proven he's actively unwilling to do what it takes to be successful within the US political system. For decades. Why will this man in his late 70s suddenly change if he gets into office and become a master pragmatist? He won't.

          6 votes
          1. [4]
            Parliament
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            I would point to his vote on the ACA in response. When it mattered most, when Bernie was faced with the choice of idealism or a compromise for incremental change in the always-important healthcare...

            The decades of voting history many Sanders' supporters tout as a strong and good record, unwavering principles and being on the right side of history, betray his lack of political ability to get things done.

            I would point to his vote on the ACA in response. When it mattered most, when Bernie was faced with the choice of idealism or a compromise for incremental change in the always-important healthcare debate, he cast the deciding vote for the ACA.

            So let’s contrast the centrist former-Democrat-turned-Independent with the progressive from that debate. Joe Lieberman refused to compromise on a public option and would not vote for the bill without removing it. Bernie Sanders compromised on his ideals—even though he wanted a public option—because he recognized the positive change that would come from passing the bill without a public option.

            The most useful data point for arguably the most important policy debate from his voting record proved his ability to be pragmatic and compromise. I have no reason to believe he wouldn’t compromise on his ideal of M4A if the binary choice is no change or incremental change.

            14 votes
            1. vord
              Link Parent
              Precisely. You don't start negotiations by putting forth a pre-compromised plan. You go in with a strong, bold policy and make bare minimum concessions until it is passed. When negotiating a...

              The most useful data point for arguably the most important policy debate from his voting record proved his ability to be pragmatic and compromise. I have no reason to believe he wouldn’t compromise on his ideal of M4A if the binary choice is no change or incremental change.

              Precisely. You don't start negotiations by putting forth a pre-compromised plan. You go in with a strong, bold policy and make bare minimum concessions until it is passed.

              When negotiating a salary for a new job, you don't make a low-ball offer to start with....a company will always pay you less if they can. You reach high and work your way down from there.

              8 votes
            2. [2]
              dubteedub
              Link Parent
              Just to point out, Liberman was an independent who had lost the Democratic primary because he was too far right and out of step with the party. He ran as a third party candidate and won over both...

              So let’s contrast the centrist Democrat with the progressive from that debate. Joe Lieberman refused to compromise on a public option and would not vote for the bill without removing it.

              Just to point out, Liberman was an independent who had lost the Democratic primary because he was too far right and out of step with the party. He ran as a third party candidate and won over both the D and R candidates that year.

              6 votes
              1. Parliament
                Link Parent
                I had forgotten that. Thanks for the correction. So it was the two independent Senators from that session at opposite ends of the Democratic Party spectrum. One compromising and one uncompromising.

                I had forgotten that. Thanks for the correction. So it was the two independent Senators from that session at opposite ends of the Democratic Party spectrum. One compromising and one uncompromising.

                3 votes
        2. [2]
          Kuromantis
          Link Parent
          Do you think someone like Elizabeth Warren stands a better chance at doing so then? I don't really think most Congresspeople would support progressive policy just because Warren is calmer than...

          If Sanders was elected president tomorrow that wouldn't mean a single one of his ideas becomes effect. He could be given a Democratic Senate and there is still going to be an incredible uphill battle to get any major changes through the system.

          Do you think someone like Elizabeth Warren stands a better chance at doing so then? I don't really think most Congresspeople would support progressive policy just because Warren is calmer than Sanders and a registered Democrat.

          6 votes
          1. Loire
            Link Parent
            I think Elizabeth Warren knows how to work the system to get the incremental changes through, which will eventually compound into the final policy. And that's the entire point. It's not a matter...

            I think Elizabeth Warren knows how to work the system to get the incremental changes through, which will eventually compound into the final policy.

            And that's the entire point. It's not a matter of "angry Bernie", it's a matter of principles preventing effective lawmaking. It's unlikely M4A will happen in one sweeping bill. When it comes down to making sacrifices on his signature policy to get something through congress will Sanders be willing to make those sacrifices? Or will he fight ineffectively with his peers pushing them further away?

            4 votes
        3. deciduous
          Link Parent
          This is just wrong. There are plenty of policies he had proposed that do not require anything from the legislative branch. Off the top of my head, end to the wars in the middle east, legalization...

          If Sanders was elected president tomorrow that wouldn't mean a single one of his ideas becomes effect. He could be given a Democratic Senate and there is still going to be an incredible uphill battle to get any major changes through the system.

          This is just wrong. There are plenty of policies he had proposed that do not require anything from the legislative branch. Off the top of my head, end to the wars in the middle east, legalization of marijuana, and end to the border camps are all policies he has proposed that can be done through a combination of appointments and executive orders. He has specifically stated his plan to legalize marijuana on day 1. The president cannot do everything on his own, but he can do a great deal.

          3 votes
    2. [5]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      I'm curious as to why we all seem to assume that it must be a devil whispering on his shoulder and not just an intrinsic part of the guy's personality.

      Bernie being particularly ill-served by a campaign staff that want to attack other Democrats and the party establishment, continuing to present Bernie as an indepent and aggressive outside

      I'm curious as to why we all seem to assume that it must be a devil whispering on his shoulder and not just an intrinsic part of the guy's personality.

      7 votes
      1. Loire
        Link Parent
        Because expressing the problem that way becomes instinctual when expressing it the other way constantly brings out the chorus of no true Scotsman fallacies on left leaning forums. The conversation...

        I'm curious as to why we all seem to assume that it must be a devil whispering on his shoulder and not just an intrinsic part of the guy's personality.

        Because expressing the problem that way becomes instinctual when expressing it the other way constantly brings out the chorus of no true Scotsman fallacies on left leaning forums.

        The conversation flows a lot better this way.

        2 votes
      2. [3]
        Kuromantis
        Link Parent
        Because none of us has any personal experience with him personally and we can't truly know unless someone who actually has those credentials says so.

        Because none of us has any personal experience with him personally and we can't truly know unless someone who actually has those credentials says so.

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          NaraVara
          Link Parent
          I mean, you make an inference. We don't have any way to "truly know" that his staff are serving him poorly rather than just taking their cues from their leadership either. It just seems strange...

          I mean, you make an inference. We don't have any way to "truly know" that his staff are serving him poorly rather than just taking their cues from their leadership either. It just seems strange that we're willing to accept that tone-at-the-top matters when we ascribe Zuckerberg's general creepiness as an explanatory factor in Facebook being a creepy company that doesn't respect people's privacy but people won't do it here.

          4 votes
          1. dubteedub
            Link Parent
            That is a fair point. I remember reading a couple articles recently that talked about how his staff pushing him on messaging certain ways, positioning him as this outsider candidate still...

            That is a fair point. I remember reading a couple articles recently that talked about how his staff pushing him on messaging certain ways, positioning him as this outsider candidate still attacking the establishment, pressuring him to stay in the race rather than drop out, but I am having some trouble digging those back up at this point.

            It certainly could be that this is who Bernie is and those traits are just being amplified by his staff.

            1 vote
  2. [6]
    Kuromantis
    (edited )
    Link
    Related article about how the Biden 2020 compares with the Hillary 2016 map for the Democratic nomination. If Elizabeth Warren ran in 2016, she would have won and sanders wouldn't be anywhere near...

    Related article about how the Biden 2020 compares with the Hillary 2016 map for the Democratic nomination.

    If Elizabeth Warren ran in 2016, she would have won and sanders wouldn't be anywhere near national policy. 3 out of 5 of her supporters had moderates as their second choices. They want progressivism but they do not want Sanders anywhere near it. Also these people seem to Ironically be far more numerous and consequential than Bernie or bust-ers.

    7 votes
    1. [5]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      What I'm reading out of that map is that Bernie's Spanish language outreach people deserve a medal and the rest of his campaign people need to fuck right off forever. All his Clinton -> Sanders...

      What I'm reading out of that map is that Bernie's Spanish language outreach people deserve a medal and the rest of his campaign people need to fuck right off forever.

      All his Clinton -> Sanders gains were in heavily Hispanic regions. Evidently his worst supporters just don't speak Spanish.

      3 votes
      1. [4]
        Loire
        Link Parent
        Had Bernie's team done with Southern Black voters what he did with latinos he'd have been the presumptive nominee a month ago. I'm definitely interested in his poor performance with college...

        Had Bernie's team done with Southern Black voters what he did with latinos he'd have been the presumptive nominee a month ago.

        I'm definitely interested in his poor performance with college educated voters. My mind subconsciously equates redditors(/tildes) with college education as well as heavy Sanders support, so to seem him underperform with that demographic is surprising.

        3 votes
        1. [3]
          NaraVara
          Link Parent
          It's less mysterious when you consider that they're the ones most likely to be heavily exposed to Bernie Twitter.

          I'm definitely interested in his poor performance with college educated voters.

          It's less mysterious when you consider that they're the ones most likely to be heavily exposed to Bernie Twitter.

          6 votes
          1. [2]
            Kuromantis
            Link Parent
            Why would college educated people be more exposed to the dirtbag left? If anything I'd think they'd be the ones to take them the least seriously.

            Why would college educated people be more exposed to the dirtbag left? If anything I'd think they'd be the ones to take them the least seriously.

            1. NaraVara
              Link Parent
              The “dirtbag left” has been mostly Brooklyn hipsters, struggling writers and media types, and failed academics. The actual working class folks involved aren’t on twitter or writing...

              The “dirtbag left” has been mostly Brooklyn hipsters, struggling writers and media types, and failed academics. The actual working class folks involved aren’t on twitter or writing catastrophically bad takes in Jacobin. But they are specifically targeting people who mainline media coverage all day.

              2 votes