What's also absurd is that there is no backup plan for this situation. It's "too big to fail" basically. It seems like there should be preference voting for the nomination process and a rule that...
What's also absurd is that there is no backup plan for this situation. It's "too big to fail" basically.
It seems like there should be preference voting for the nomination process and a rule that ranks the nominees? If the voters' first choice cannot serve (they die for example), then you would have a process for picking the next candidate that is arguably the will of the people.
I'm personally playing this all by ear. I acknowledge and take the allegations seriously, but he denied them without attacking the alleged victim and called for an investigation. Let there be an...
I'm personally playing this all by ear. I acknowledge and take the allegations seriously, but he denied them without attacking the alleged victim and called for an investigation. Let there be an investigation and if the accusations pan out then I'll be voting abstaining from the president vote (still voting senate/house and local races, of course).
Ohh boy. Either they're keeping that as a November surprise or they know it'll help Biden so they won't release it ever. Or worse, there's nothing in there and they release it in November anyway,...
Ohh boy. Either they're keeping that as a November surprise or they know it'll help Biden so they won't release it ever. Or worse, there's nothing in there and they release it in November anyway, and by the time people realize there's nothing bad in there, Trump has been elected.
Yeah that's pretty telling. Also I believe Reade recently said that the report she filled didn't mention assault either, even though she previous said it did. I know when you're dealing with...
Yeah that's pretty telling. Also I believe Reade recently said that the report she filled didn't mention assault either, even though she previous said it did. I know when you're dealing with something traumatic and something that took place years ago human memory is even worse than it usually is. But it does shed some doubt on things.
All the same we've got months to go before the election so I'll let it play out before I make any decisions.
I'm in the same spot, I'm waiting for an investigation. I honestly don't know if there will even be an investigation, I've seen many establishment democrats trying to dismiss this and sweep it...
I'm in the same spot, I'm waiting for an investigation. I honestly don't know if there will even be an investigation, I've seen many establishment democrats trying to dismiss this and sweep it under the rug. I've left the Democratic party after several election cycles of shenanigans and disenfranchisement, but if a good Democrat candidate was nominated, that's where my vote would go. That said, I don't think Joe Biden is a good candidate, and these allegations if they have substance will be the straw to break the camel's back. If that is the case, I may actually even vote 3rd party, rather than abstain.
I have the choice to write in Fuckstick McGee. Some choices have more impact than others. We should always make the choice that results in the most tangible good.
I have the choice to write in Fuckstick McGee.
Some choices have more impact than others. We should always make the choice that results in the most tangible good.
The most insane part of this is voting Biden is actually the more morally sound choice since Trump has more sexual assault allegations against him than Biden. As for 3rd parties, FPTP and the lack...
The most insane part of this is voting Biden is actually the more morally sound choice since Trump has more sexual assault allegations against him than Biden. As for 3rd parties, FPTP and the lack of a second round for president makes them nothing but a liability unless someone pulls a Ross Perot.
I don't think voting for Joe Biden and morally sound should be anywhere near each other right now. I'm not going to mention all of the other aspects of why I don't like Biden, because that's not...
I don't think voting for Joe Biden and morally sound should be anywhere near each other right now. I'm not going to mention all of the other aspects of why I don't like Biden, because that's not what this thread is about. To base a vote on "he's less of a rapist than the other guy" is not even close to OK. Trump is worse, but that doesn't make Joe good. Let me reiterate, none of this is OK!!!!!!
As for a third party candidate, I'm split on the idea (pun totally intended). I feel we need a thirds party, but a third party on the left seems like it would split the left vote and only cause us to lose elections. On the other hand, I do question if disenfranchised young people who don't vote at all would show up enough, to combine with current third party voters and DNC refugees, to make up the difference.
All that said, let's not jump the gun. We need to call for an outside investigation on the allegations against Joe Biden and go from there. To suggest we do otherwise as you have is simply trying to sweep it under the rug.
I think moral conundrums are quite common, damned if you do damned if you don't, ya know? Take medically necessary abortion for example. Some would argue abortion is murder, others would argue if...
I think moral conundrums are quite common, damned if you do damned if you don't, ya know? Take medically necessary abortion for example. Some would argue abortion is murder, others would argue if you didn't get the abortion and the mother was killed then that is at least equally immoral. The situation is the same here. Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing an evil. So no, the choice is not very clear. I think that the choice is difficult is actually an indicator that morality weighs more heavily on my decision making than it might with others'.
Well, I was thinking that this particular choice was pretty clear because one of them is Trump and the other isn't? There are tougher choices where it's genuinely unclear which is worse. I don't...
Well, I was thinking that this particular choice was pretty clear because one of them is Trump and the other isn't? There are tougher choices where it's genuinely unclear which is worse.
I don't really get why picking the lesser of two evils is supposed to be hard, if you're sure about which is lesser. But maybe the hard part is thinking that there might be a third choice, one you're missing?
I want to say, I'm not a Trump supporter, didn't vote for him and never will. That said, "a vote for anybody but Biden is a vote for Trump" is bullshit if you ask me. Not voting for somebody even...
I want to say, I'm not a Trump supporter, didn't vote for him and never will. That said, "a vote for anybody but Biden is a vote for Trump" is bullshit if you ask me. Not voting for somebody even though they are presented as your "only choice" is a form of protest. Now I'm not trying to grandstand with some glorious protest to express my views, my vote is for me personally, not to show off to others. So to address your point directly, picking the lesser of two evils for me isn't hard, it's immoral. Hard would imply there's an obstacle to overcome, there is no obstacle unless I were to consider compromising my morals. I did that with Clinton and look where it got us.
Well, calling it a vote for Trump is wrong on the math. A vote for a third-party candidate (or just staying home) is worth half as much as a vote for Trump, from the point of view of someone...
Well, calling it a vote for Trump is wrong on the math. A vote for a third-party candidate (or just staying home) is worth half as much as a vote for Trump, from the point of view of someone trying to get Trump elected. (It results in a one-vote difference instead of two.)
It also doesn't matter unless you're in a swing state.
And even then, a single vote is pretty insignificant, since it's the overall numbers that matter. If you don't vote but you convince others to vote the right way, that's better than voting yourself.
There are also many things more important in life than voting. We shouldn't be single-issue about this.
I still can't see any way that voting for Biden could possibly be immoral when it's the better choice. It seems like a logical contradiction? I'm reminded of an Asimov quote: "Never let your sense of morals keep you from doing what is right."
Problem is, after Bernie and any of the other moderates dropped out, what do we do next? What can we do next? Another primary, but nationally, vote by mail and RC/ preference voting? That would be...
Problem is, after Bernie and any of the other moderates dropped out, what do we do next? What can we do next? Another primary, but nationally, vote by mail and RC/ preference voting? That would be democratic but we would have to leave him in the ballot otherwise the people that voted Biden (read: 30% of the Democratic electorate ever since he announced his run, which appears to be highlycommitted to him) would be alienated like shit for something not yet clearly proven/rebutted. If we keep him in the ballot however this just feels like a superfluous exercise and nothing would guarantee the Democratic electorate would changed it's mind. If you vote 3rd party FPTP actively works against you.
I do question if disenfranchised young people who don't vote at all would show up enough, to combine with current third party voters and DNC refugees, to make up the difference.
That seems terribly unlikely. How would these people get enough votes to get over the FPTP mountain?
Not by any objective standard. The only reason this has legs is because the one-note Sanders brigading parts of the lefty media are teaming up with right wingers to push it. That didn’t happen...
seems fairly credible
Not by any objective standard. The only reason this has legs is because the one-note Sanders brigading parts of the lefty media are teaming up with right wingers to push it. That didn’t happen with Mueller.
That is a terrible backup plan. Voters won't rally behind a nominee they had no hand in choosing. You may as well run nobody if it comes to that and cede the election to the opposition.
That is a terrible backup plan. Voters won't rally behind a nominee they had no hand in choosing. You may as well run nobody if it comes to that and cede the election to the opposition.
It doesn't seem that simple, since it would not just be nominating someone else but getting the people in the party to accept it and work towards the same goal, even if they didn't get their way....
It doesn't seem that simple, since it would not just be nominating someone else but getting the people in the party to accept it and work towards the same goal, even if they didn't get their way. It's harder if some ad-hoc process is used that isn't seen as legitimate.
That's the bottom line for any democratic process, even if it's flawed: however grudgingly, do the losers accept the results?
What's also absurd is that there is no backup plan for this situation. It's "too big to fail" basically.
It seems like there should be preference voting for the nomination process and a rule that ranks the nominees? If the voters' first choice cannot serve (they die for example), then you would have a process for picking the next candidate that is arguably the will of the people.
I'm personally playing this all by ear. I acknowledge and take the allegations seriously, but he denied them without attacking the alleged victim and called for an investigation. Let there be an investigation and if the accusations pan out then I'll be voting abstaining from the president vote (still voting senate/house and local races, of course).
He called for the senate records she mentioned to be released. For some reason, the Republican-controlled senate declined to do so.
Ohh boy. Either they're keeping that as a November surprise or they know it'll help Biden so they won't release it ever. Or worse, there's nothing in there and they release it in November anyway, and by the time people realize there's nothing bad in there, Trump has been elected.
That's so fucking corrupt, any way you spin it.
Yeah that's pretty telling. Also I believe Reade recently said that the report she filled didn't mention assault either, even though she previous said it did. I know when you're dealing with something traumatic and something that took place years ago human memory is even worse than it usually is. But it does shed some doubt on things.
All the same we've got months to go before the election so I'll let it play out before I make any decisions.
I'm in the same spot, I'm waiting for an investigation. I honestly don't know if there will even be an investigation, I've seen many establishment democrats trying to dismiss this and sweep it under the rug. I've left the Democratic party after several election cycles of shenanigans and disenfranchisement, but if a good Democrat candidate was nominated, that's where my vote would go. That said, I don't think Joe Biden is a good candidate, and these allegations if they have substance will be the straw to break the camel's back. If that is the case, I may actually even vote 3rd party, rather than abstain.
I have the choice to write in Fuckstick McGee.
Some choices have more impact than others. We should always make the choice that results in the most tangible good.
The most insane part of this is voting Biden is actually the more morally sound choice since Trump has more sexual assault allegations against him than Biden. As for 3rd parties, FPTP and the lack of a second round for president makes them nothing but a liability unless someone pulls a Ross Perot.
I don't think voting for Joe Biden and morally sound should be anywhere near each other right now. I'm not going to mention all of the other aspects of why I don't like Biden, because that's not what this thread is about. To base a vote on "he's less of a rapist than the other guy" is not even close to OK. Trump is worse, but that doesn't make Joe good. Let me reiterate, none of this is OK!!!!!!
As for a third party candidate, I'm split on the idea (pun totally intended). I feel we need a thirds party, but a third party on the left seems like it would split the left vote and only cause us to lose elections. On the other hand, I do question if disenfranchised young people who don't vote at all would show up enough, to combine with current third party voters and DNC refugees, to make up the difference.
All that said, let's not jump the gun. We need to call for an outside investigation on the allegations against Joe Biden and go from there. To suggest we do otherwise as you have is simply trying to sweep it under the rug.
A morality that doesn't help you make tough decisions doesn't seem very useful? Yes, this situation sucks. The choice still seems pretty clear?
I think moral conundrums are quite common, damned if you do damned if you don't, ya know? Take medically necessary abortion for example. Some would argue abortion is murder, others would argue if you didn't get the abortion and the mother was killed then that is at least equally immoral. The situation is the same here. Choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing an evil. So no, the choice is not very clear. I think that the choice is difficult is actually an indicator that morality weighs more heavily on my decision making than it might with others'.
Well, I was thinking that this particular choice was pretty clear because one of them is Trump and the other isn't? There are tougher choices where it's genuinely unclear which is worse.
I don't really get why picking the lesser of two evils is supposed to be hard, if you're sure about which is lesser. But maybe the hard part is thinking that there might be a third choice, one you're missing?
I want to say, I'm not a Trump supporter, didn't vote for him and never will. That said, "a vote for anybody but Biden is a vote for Trump" is bullshit if you ask me. Not voting for somebody even though they are presented as your "only choice" is a form of protest. Now I'm not trying to grandstand with some glorious protest to express my views, my vote is for me personally, not to show off to others. So to address your point directly, picking the lesser of two evils for me isn't hard, it's immoral. Hard would imply there's an obstacle to overcome, there is no obstacle unless I were to consider compromising my morals. I did that with Clinton and look where it got us.
Well, calling it a vote for Trump is wrong on the math. A vote for a third-party candidate (or just staying home) is worth half as much as a vote for Trump, from the point of view of someone trying to get Trump elected. (It results in a one-vote difference instead of two.)
It also doesn't matter unless you're in a swing state.
And even then, a single vote is pretty insignificant, since it's the overall numbers that matter. If you don't vote but you convince others to vote the right way, that's better than voting yourself.
There are also many things more important in life than voting. We shouldn't be single-issue about this.
I still can't see any way that voting for Biden could possibly be immoral when it's the better choice. It seems like a logical contradiction? I'm reminded of an Asimov quote: "Never let your sense of morals keep you from doing what is right."
But I guess we'll have to leave it at that.
Problem is, after Bernie and any of the other moderates dropped out, what do we do next? What can we do next? Another primary, but nationally, vote by mail and RC/ preference voting? That would be democratic but we would have to leave him in the ballot otherwise the people that voted Biden (read: 30% of the Democratic electorate ever since he announced his run, which appears to be highly committed to him) would be alienated like shit for something not yet clearly proven/rebutted. If we keep him in the ballot however this just feels like a superfluous exercise and nothing would guarantee the Democratic electorate would changed it's mind. If you vote 3rd party FPTP actively works against you.
That seems terribly unlikely. How would these people get enough votes to get over the FPTP mountain?
Not by any objective standard. The only reason this has legs is because the one-note Sanders brigading parts of the lefty media are teaming up with right wingers to push it. That didn’t happen with Mueller.
That is a terrible backup plan. Voters won't rally behind a nominee they had no hand in choosing. You may as well run nobody if it comes to that and cede the election to the opposition.
It doesn't seem that simple, since it would not just be nominating someone else but getting the people in the party to accept it and work towards the same goal, even if they didn't get their way. It's harder if some ad-hoc process is used that isn't seen as legitimate.
That's the bottom line for any democratic process, even if it's flawed: however grudgingly, do the losers accept the results?