31 votes

The path to autocracy; A second Trump term will leave America’s political system and culture looking even more like Orbán’s Hungary

44 comments

  1. [39]
    xnaas
    Link
    I wish I could force people to read sometimes...I try sharing information like this with my fellow Americans, but as always, they're absolutely apathetic. Not even actively hostile towards it,...
    • Exemplary

    I wish I could force people to read sometimes...I try sharing information like this with my fellow Americans, but as always, they're absolutely apathetic. Not even actively hostile towards it, just "meh it's not a big deal."

    I can only think back to the popular poem (which of course has been through many, many forms):

    First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

    A lot of Americans are finally starting to open their eyes and see the country around them for the mess it is, but I think it's far too little too late. I think Trump will win again due to all the apathy in this country and I think I can't get out soon enough. I'd love to be proven wrong, but something in my gut tells me he's going to win again (felt it the first time too and was unfortunately right).

    I'll vote against him yet again and continue my work towards leaving, just in case.

    And to anyone who thought the George Floyd protests and anything after them resembled anything like real riots, I think you're in for a huge shock either way when this election comes to pass. Expect horrifying quantities of senseless and incredibly sad bloodshed.

    17 votes
    1. [17]
      onyxleopard
      Link Parent
      A lot of Americans have had their eyes open for a while, we just can’t do more within our power. I’m from Massachusetts, and other than elect progressive representatives to congress (like...

      A lot of Americans have had their eyes open for a while, we just can’t do more within our power. I’m from Massachusetts, and other than elect progressive representatives to congress (like Elizabeth Warren, Ayanna Pressley, Barney Frank, Joe Kennedy III, etc.) what can we do? We can’t force regressive people in other states to turn around and vote in their best interests. Due to the nature of our government, short of a constitutional convention, Congress is basically stalemated, and the executive is running amok without the checks that ought to reign it in. And we have idiotic rulings from the SC like Citizens United. Basically, short of some sort of massive mobilization (think an order of magnitude larger than the BLM movement), I don’t see what could affect real systemic change.

      14 votes
      1. [16]
        xnaas
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I've said it before, but the Americans should learn from the French. They've had lots of successful (but very violent) revolutions. Not necessarily encouraging violence, but I'd say it's fairly...

        I've said it before, but the Americans should learn from the French. They've had lots of successful (but very violent) revolutions. Not necessarily encouraging violence, but I'd say it's fairly obvious at this point that non-violence is going to become increasingly ineffective. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        As stated above, I've accepted that my voice likely has no impact (sounds like we're on the same page there) and am choosing to work on just leaving instead.

        Edit: I misread.

        10 votes
        1. I_WANNA_DO_IT_AGAIN
          Link Parent
          Violence won't help anything. If you have the numbers to violently overthrow the US government with the weapons available to us, you have the numbers to do it without violence. Of all the...

          Violence won't help anything. If you have the numbers to violently overthrow the US government with the weapons available to us, you have the numbers to do it without violence. Of all the successful revolutions post-WWII with well-equipped, modern industrialized armies, all (or almost all, depending on interpretation) have been more or less nonviolent. You'll be horribly outgunned and at best can only engage in a war of attrition, unless you can get a significant portion of the military to defect, which is highly unlikely and might as well just be a coup.

          Our options, if voting him out proves impossible, are either a general strike or hope for principled military leaders to enact a coup. Bringing guns into it isn't going to help anything.

          9 votes
        2. [4]
          onyxleopard
          Link Parent
          I don’t believe that my voice has no impact, I just realize that my voice isn’t the only one that counts and that there is a lot of money to be made in the business of keeping the electorate...

          I don’t believe that my voice has no impact, I just realize that my voice isn’t the only one that counts and that there is a lot of money to be made in the business of keeping the electorate uninformed and even actively self-harmful. I think Biden has a real chance to win, but that is just one battle in a highly multifaceted war that most refuse to acknowledge is being waged, and even fewer have the appropriate weapons and wherewithal to participate.

          America is pretty young as far as nations go, and we’ve had some violent upheavals (including our birth), so I’m not sure what we need to learn from the French as far as revolutions go. The trouble with violent upheaval is that you can’t be sure the things that fill the power vacuum will be any better. While we still have a system that has a possibility of functioning I think it’s worth holding out hope that it can work again via normal transition of power.

          7 votes
          1. [3]
            xnaas
            Link Parent
            Well you know what they say: hope in one hand and shit in the other... Sounds like you might be a bit more optimistic than me. Having lived in Austin most of life (I've lived elsewhere and...

            Well you know what they say: hope in one hand and shit in the other...

            Sounds like you might be a bit more optimistic than me. Having lived in Austin most of life (I've lived elsewhere and traveled some, but, admittedly, not as much as I would've liked), I'm used to the fact that Texas seems to exist solely to make anything we want to do illegal. That said, the last mid-terms made it pretty clear that Texas is closer to a blue shade of purple than it's been in a long time.

            So who knows.

            Maybe I'm overly pessimistic. I'd like to be in the reality where I'm just a drama queen or something, but my expectations are immeasurably low at this point.

            4 votes
            1. [2]
              suspended
              Link Parent
              I believe that the 'blue wave' will continue so I'm hopeful.

              I believe that the 'blue wave' will continue so I'm hopeful.

              1. xnaas
                Link Parent
                Hopefully you're right.

                Hopefully you're right.

                1 vote
        3. [5]
          Comment deleted by author
          Link Parent
          1. [4]
            spctrvl
            Link Parent
            While I agree the rest of your comment, I very strongly disagree with that assessment of cultural differences within America. For the size of the country, the place is remarkably culturally...

            While I agree the rest of your comment, I very strongly disagree with that assessment of cultural differences within America. For the size of the country, the place is remarkably culturally homogenous. It's strongly polarized along a rural-urban divide, but that's a divide that exists everywhere in the country. A rural reactionary in California is going to have much more in common with one in Texas than they are with a progressive Californian, and you could probably drop people from southern urban areas right in to California without them missing a beat.

            9 votes
            1. [3]
              viridian
              Link Parent
              I partially agree with this, partially disagree. I'd say rural areas do have sort of homogeneity to them (with some striking exceptions), but cities definitely do not. From my experiences living...

              I partially agree with this, partially disagree. I'd say rural areas do have sort of homogeneity to them (with some striking exceptions), but cities definitely do not. From my experiences living in both NYC and Columbus, the culture between the two is night and day, even if the politics end up being pretty similar. There's an extreme unease and unfriendliness in New York. People don't talk to each other without purpose, and the mays, pleases and thank yous are largely absent. The unwritten rules about what you don't or shouldn't say are very different there too, as well as the general attitudes towards authority, and common responsibility.

              5 votes
              1. [2]
                spctrvl
                Link Parent
                Personally, I didn't get that vibe from NYC, but I've only visited, never lived there. It's of course possible that I'm just too socially oblivious to notice that sort of thing, or haven't spent...

                Personally, I didn't get that vibe from NYC, but I've only visited, never lived there. It's of course possible that I'm just too socially oblivious to notice that sort of thing, or haven't spent enough time there to get an accurate read on it. I will say though that older cities, especially pre-car ones, and particularly NYC, definitely do have more distinct character than postwar developments. Still, I don't think that constitutes a massive cultural difference. Certainly not on the scale of different countries within the EU, and not remotely enough to make governing challenging absent the urban-rural divide.

                2 votes
                1. viridian
                  Link Parent
                  The more I think about it, the more I think I find a similar relationship in rural areas, actually. A frequent, and to my mind accurate comparison folks who study the history of Appalachia make,...

                  The more I think about it, the more I think I find a similar relationship in rural areas, actually. A frequent, and to my mind accurate comparison folks who study the history of Appalachia make, is comparing the relationship and cultural differences of Appalachia and South, to the Scottish lowlands and highlands. The geography even presents almost identical stratification both cultural and economic, in that in both the highlands and the Appalachian mountains, it's pretty damned hard to grow crops, develop property, and build vital infrastructure, versus the flatter, more temperate lowlands/American south. The cultural differences aren't as easy to point to with NYC versus a midwestern city, but they are certainly there.

                  3 votes
        4. [5]
          viridian
          Link Parent
          Coming from a place where violence is quite a bit more culturally accepted than the rest of America, the fundamental problem with this mentality is that the most capable purveyors of violence by...

          Coming from a place where violence is quite a bit more culturally accepted than the rest of America, the fundamental problem with this mentality is that the most capable purveyors of violence by and large are the regressives that @onyxleopard references. I know a couple handfuls of IDPA and USPSA rated shooters in my state, including a couple of grand masters. Not a single person there that leans left among them.

          Even the folks who are a natural fit, volunteers and school board chairs in liberal districts, have been inoculated by the one-two punch of toxic national Democrats and supportive local GOP politicians. It's a pretty sad state of affairs, but I don't see much change happening any time soon.

          And even outside of traditional arms, the majority of folks with any combat experience end up leaning conservative or libertarian a super-majority of the time. Comparisons to the French revolution aren't quite accurate in that regard, you'd look to look at anti-Napoleonic rebellions for a more accurate comparison. The problem which that is that each such rebellion ended in total failure.

          3 votes
          1. vord
            Link Parent
            This is true in the USA as well. But....they already will use violence (or at least threats of it). Practicing non-violence while one side is violent doesn't exactly work when the president is on...

            that the most capable purveyors of violence by and large are the regressives

            This is true in the USA as well. But....they already will use violence (or at least threats of it). Practicing non-violence while one side is violent doesn't exactly work when the president is on the side of the violent.

            We've reached a point where it takes prolonged multi-city protests, including burning a police station to the ground to accomplish even modest proposals for police reform.

            3 votes
          2. [3]
            onyxleopard
            Link Parent
            FWIW, I know several gun-toting liberals from the northeastern US. I know a local gun range has self-defense classes specially for LGBTQ+ persons and I’m aware that some gun rights activists...

            FWIW, I know several gun-toting liberals from the northeastern US. I know a local gun range has self-defense classes specially for LGBTQ+ persons and I’m aware that some gun rights activists actively promote concealed carry for such persons.

            1 vote
            1. [2]
              viridian
              Link Parent
              I'm aware, but the fundamental problem is that these folks just aren't shooting very much. I don't exactly live at the range myself, but I can take the dozens of folks I know with firearms, line...

              I'm aware, but the fundamental problem is that these folks just aren't shooting very much. I don't exactly live at the range myself, but I can take the dozens of folks I know with firearms, line their politics on the x axis, line time at range on the y axis, and I'd have an extremely strong positive correlation. I'm all for /r/socialistRA and similar movements, but at the end of the day if people aren't shooting with some regularity, they won't be reliable shots when they need to, especially when it comes to handguns, which are what most people actually have in the home and/or carry.

              2 votes
              1. onyxleopard
                Link Parent
                Oh, I don’t think you’d be able to stand up a militia with casual shooters. I’m just pointing out that even in gun-hating MA, there’s still plenty of people carrying. But, I also don’t think...

                Oh, I don’t think you’d be able to stand up a militia with casual shooters. I’m just pointing out that even in gun-hating MA, there’s still plenty of people carrying. But, I also don’t think there’s nearly enough motivation in MA right now to stand up a militia, period. People who own guns here do so for recreation or ostensibly personal defense—not because they are forming militias. Maybe if some of these nazi groups show up in MA it’ll be a different story. Like when the Westboro Baptist Church assholes came to protest at my high school graduation in Lexington, plenty of folks came to counter-protest. I could imagine you’d get a similar reaction if some Proud Boys showed up.

                1 vote
        5. moonbathers
          Link Parent
          The French Revolution didn't end well for a lot of people involved, and the instability ended with 15 years of another monarch. Any sort of civil war here that doesn't end with Biden "cleanly" and...

          The French Revolution didn't end well for a lot of people involved, and the instability ended with 15 years of another monarch. Any sort of civil war here that doesn't end with Biden "cleanly" and unambiguously installed as president followed by another Reconstruction is going to result in years of instability. I see a lot of people talk about getting guns but unless you're planning on going to protests I don't think it's going to help anything at all. The feds aren't going to disappear you unless you've been to a protest and at least so far the vigilantes aren't killing their neighbors, only people at protests. Carrying a gun on you everywhere you go isn't going to make a difference, they're not just going to randomly light up whatever store you're in and you shouldn't be thinking about playing good guy with a gun in that scenario anyway.

          That's not to say that we should lay down and take it by any means, but having random people on our side start shooting isn't going to help anything. Instead you should organize - build relationships with friends and family who are on our side, look into local political organizations and see what you can do there, do what you can to prepare in case supply chains start falling apart, that sort of thing. The last thing we need in this country is even more guns.

          2 votes
    2. [19]
      mono
      Link Parent
      I mean, even if he loses, not much is going to fundamentally change about the country. Trump supporters aren't going to just give up, and Trump himself is going to fight to find any reason to stay...

      I mean, even if he loses, not much is going to fundamentally change about the country. Trump supporters aren't going to just give up, and Trump himself is going to fight to find any reason to stay relevant. The federal government might take a step back from the brink, but state and local politics won't be affected. If the GOP maintains control of the Senate, they're going to obstruct anything and everything Dems try to do, like they did for Obama. Russia is still going to sow misinformation. It's been so successful, I doubt even sanctions will deter them at this point.

      I used to be an optimist about the direction America was going, but now, I don't see any likely path that doesn't end up in some sort of cataclysm. I don't believe that there's going to be an outright civil war, but the state of affairs is already starting to look a lot like the Northern Ireland conflict.

      10 votes
      1. [4]
        teaearlgraycold
        Link Parent
        If Biden wins it's nothing more than a 4 year lull. A brief period for anyone lucky enough to flee the country and re-settle elsewhere.

        If Biden wins it's nothing more than a 4 year lull. A brief period for anyone lucky enough to flee the country and re-settle elsewhere.

        7 votes
        1. [3]
          moonbathers
          Link Parent
          It gives us four more years to organize unhindered. Four more years for BLM and all the other movements out there to continue to gather momentum and build infrastructure and connections with...

          It gives us four more years to organize unhindered. Four more years for BLM and all the other movements out there to continue to gather momentum and build infrastructure and connections with people. That's valuable at the very least since that's not going to happen under Trump. Having Biden in office also makes for fairer elections which will help us.

          5 votes
          1. [2]
            vegai
            Link Parent
            That sounds weird. What are you organizing, a revolution? Who's "us"?

            That sounds weird. What are you organizing, a revolution? Who's "us"?

            4 votes
            1. moonbathers
              Link Parent
              In this case organize means building connections with people around you with similar goals to get people you like into office and get those already in office to do things you'd like them to do,...

              In this case organize means building connections with people around you with similar goals to get people you like into office and get those already in office to do things you'd like them to do, and if there ends up being a civil war it's people you can rely on and work together with to get necessities to live and keep each other safe. I don't want a revolution, but we might need some form of one (preferably as non-violent as possible) if the regime and its backers continue to escalate what they're doing (like approving of armed vigilantes killing protestors). "Us" in this case means anyone who doesn't support the regime. Whether you like Biden or not, if you're against Trump you're on the same side. This is not to excuse Republicans who only don't like Trump because he's doing things in a way that they don't like, like the Lincoln Project.

              4 votes
      2. [6]
        KapteinB
        Link Parent
        There's going to be record numbers of mail-in votes this year, which means it will likely take weeks to count them all and get the final election results. But we're used to knowing the winner...

        There's going to be record numbers of mail-in votes this year, which means it will likely take weeks to count them all and get the final election results. But we're used to knowing the winner already on election night. Excluding the various combination of house/senate control, there are four realistic outcomes:

        1. Trump leads on election night. Trump wins the election.
        2. Trump leads on election night. Biden wins the election.
        3. Biden leads on election night. Trump wins the election.
        4. Biden leads on election night. Biden wins the election.

        The mail-in votes will likely lean heavily towards Biden, meaning in-person votes will likely lean Trump, so I fear outcome 2 might be the most likely. If that happens, Trump will of course declare victory, citing widespread mail-in voter fraud. His heavily armed cultists are going to take him at his word. One America News will declare him the winner, and the Internet Research Agency will mobilise massively behind him on social media. The big wildcard here as I see it is Fox News; will they declare Trump the winner even though they know he's likely to lose when every vote is counted? If they declare him the winner prematurely, I think the entire Republican Party (more or less) will unite behind him and support him, leading to a highly uncertain situation in January. I think even the best case scenario 4 will get ugly, but scenario 2 might be disastrous, maybe even more so than scenario 1.

        4 votes
        1. pvik
          Link Parent
          The Transition Integrity Project simulated various scenarios and here is their report. Tristan Wont Shut Up on youtube made a video about it as well.

          The Transition Integrity Project simulated various scenarios and here is their report.

          Tristan Wont Shut Up on youtube made a video about it as well.

          4 votes
        2. I_WANNA_DO_IT_AGAIN
          Link Parent
          It'll suck no matter what, but for a Biden win scenario 4 is far better than scenario 2. That's why I'm encouraging anyone who can to vote in person. People have risked their lives and died for...

          It'll suck no matter what, but for a Biden win scenario 4 is far better than scenario 2. That's why I'm encouraging anyone who can to vote in person. People have risked their lives and died for democracy- the miniscule risk involved in going to the polls wearing a mask, keeping distanced, and washing hands immediately afterward is really the least we can do.

          4 votes
        3. [3]
          vegai
          Link Parent
          Why does election night matter if everyone knows that most votes will fall later?

          Why does election night matter if everyone knows that most votes will fall later?

          1. Deimos
            Link Parent
            Everyone definitely doesn't seem to know that, at least not yet. Axios did a poll related to it recently - 36% of the people surveyed expect to know the result on election night, with the majority...

            Everyone definitely doesn't seem to know that, at least not yet. Axios did a poll related to it recently - 36% of the people surveyed expect to know the result on election night, with the majority (60%) thinking it will be no more than a couple of days. There wasn't a large difference between Democrats and Republicans in this belief.

            6 votes
      3. [8]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        It seems like Trump will always have some fans but he’s pretty much toast if he loses (in a clear way everyone accepts), and that would result in major upheaval in the Republican party as people...

        It seems like Trump will always have some fans but he’s pretty much toast if he loses (in a clear way everyone accepts), and that would result in major upheaval in the Republican party as people look for a new leader. Of course Trump supporters are still going to be watching Fox News and sharing memes owning the libs, but whether they stay unified and which politician(s) benefit most from this seems difficult to predict.

        1. [7]
          mono
          Link Parent
          One of his children or Kushner is going to run, mark my words.

          One of his children or Kushner is going to run, mark my words.

          1. [6]
            skybrian
            Link Parent
            Okay, but name recognition only gets you so far. They will have to compete with a bunch of other people.

            Okay, but name recognition only gets you so far. They will have to compete with a bunch of other people.

            1 vote
            1. Omnicrola
              Link Parent
              Listened to the NYT Daily Podcast last week on how Donald Jr has suddenly found himself a purpose in life being a part of his father's political career (also on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, etc)....

              Listened to the NYT Daily Podcast last week on how Donald Jr has suddenly found himself a purpose in life being a part of his father's political career (also on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, etc). After listening to that, I would bet hard money on him running in 2024. If he wins is entirely up to how the next 4 years go, who else is running, etc. Trump Sr is still trying to seek his own father's validation, and he's already dead. Imagine that effect magnified by Sr goading Jr into running. And Jr actually has some PR savvy to him.

              2 votes
            2. [4]
              mono
              Link Parent
              Tell that to Trump.

              Tell that to Trump.

              1 vote
              1. [3]
                skybrian
                Link Parent
                Who predicted Trump? It seems like predicting the next big populist candidate might be hard as well.

                Who predicted Trump? It seems like predicting the next big populist candidate might be hard as well.

                1. [2]
                  mono
                  Link Parent
                  My whole point is that who the candidate is doesn't really matter. Trump supporters aren't going to wake up after a Biden win and think, "Oh, I was completely wrong about everything." or even,...

                  My whole point is that who the candidate is doesn't really matter. Trump supporters aren't going to wake up after a Biden win and think, "Oh, I was completely wrong about everything." or even, "Well, Trump is gone so I just don't care about politics anymore." Besides the "ideology" they're going to continue to fight for, they're going to fight to keep Trumpism relevant because they're invested beyond their ears in it. They're not going to view a Trump loss as a failure of their movement or a sign to reevaluate their approach to politics, and I say that with confidence because nothing that has happened in the past four years has affected Trump's base. They're already seeding conspiracies about voter fraud to justify him losing. Trump literally said outright, if he loses, it's only because the other side cheated.

                  If Trump himself is no longer viable, for whatever reason, I think they're more than likely going to shift to someone closely within his orbit, of which is constituted mostly by his family, because that's who they trust the most and who has the most incentive to keep the Trump train going. The GOP establishment has no control over the situation -- they're not even relevant.

                  1 vote
                  1. skybrian
                    Link Parent
                    It’s plausible, but it’s only one scenario, and things are pretty weird so I think a lot of other things could happen. I’m sympathetic to the notion that a small but increasing percentage of the...

                    It’s plausible, but it’s only one scenario, and things are pretty weird so I think a lot of other things could happen.

                    I’m sympathetic to the notion that a small but increasing percentage of the electorate are basically trolls and conspiracy theorists. But trolls are kind of whimsical in what memes catch their fancy, and there are many possible conspiracy theories, so I think that makes fringe candidates a bit more likely and results less predictable.

                    Here’s a weird scenario for you: what if someone like Joe Rogan runs?

                    Elections aren’t predictable far in advance, neither the candidates nor the winner, so this doesn’t seem like the sort of thing it makes sense to talk confidently about. Though many will anyway.

    3. [2]
      xnaas
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      As a half-joking aside: if anyone wants an imported American husband, I'm not too picky. Preferred countries of residence (no particular order): Iceland Norway Sweden Germany Luxembourg...

      As a half-joking aside: if anyone wants an imported American husband, I'm not too picky. Preferred countries of residence (no particular order):

      • Iceland
      • Norway
      • Sweden
      • Germany
      • Luxembourg
      • Netherlands

      ...but I'm open to others. 😉

      Edit: Italy and Ireland are good options too. Not Interested in the UK though (RIP Scotland and Northern Ireland).

      11 votes
      1. ohyran
        Link Parent
        Ooooh a mail order husband! If I wasn't married already :) Sidenote about Sweden: Learn Qt and QML - apply for work with Volvo in Gothenburg. They have sucked the world dry of Qt and QML people...

        Ooooh a mail order husband! If I wasn't married already :)

        Sidenote about Sweden: Learn Qt and QML - apply for work with Volvo in Gothenburg. They have sucked the world dry of Qt and QML people and are still looking for more. Since its a "unique skill needed" its easy for them to move through immigration.
        Not joking. If you have some programming skills ask Volvo and check up their vacancies and needs. A lot of other people have done already (there are quite a lot of folks from the US too)

        Edit, upshot with the EU countries is that passports for one, is a passport for all.

        Edit 2, for those thinking about it Qt has its Qt convention during KDE Akademy right now so it might be worth checking that out too.

        2 votes
  2. [3]
    Kuromantis
    Link
    A very similar take to this article/op-ed posted there on how the creeping authoritarianism in the US will creep much further if Trump's reelected, but the way this post warns you about it is...

    A very similar take to this article/op-ed posted there on how the creeping authoritarianism in the US will creep much further if Trump's reelected, but the way this post warns you about it is quite different, and perhaps less emotional.

    5 votes
    1. vord
      Link Parent
      I think both are important in different ways. While intellectual pieces are important, so are emotional ones. If 100's of people are desperately crying out at every chance to get anybody to...

      I think both are important in different ways. While intellectual pieces are important, so are emotional ones. If 100's of people are desperately crying out at every chance to get anybody to listen....that holds a bit more weight for some than a (relatively dry) article.

      And in the end, I think the conclusion of both is the same:

      Orbán has shown that after winning an election, a leader and his party can dismantle democracy while offering the public a constant cocktail of nationalism and hatred.

      Everyone should be very, very worried. The rest of the world needs to be contemplating how to handle Nazi USA, especially given the military superiority of it.

      3 votes
    2. suspended
      Link Parent
      It still gets me in my feels real bad.

      It still gets me in my feels real bad.

      2 votes
  3. [2]
    Hypersapien
    Link
    If Trump has a second term, I'm not convinced there's even going to be a 2024 election.

    If Trump has a second term, I'm not convinced there's even going to be a 2024 election.

    1 vote
    1. skybrian
      Link Parent
      Why do you say that? Lots of authoritarian countries have elections. How fair they are is another story.

      Why do you say that? Lots of authoritarian countries have elections. How fair they are is another story.

      6 votes
  4. Removed by admin: 4 comments by 2 users
    Link