36
votes
‘Captain America: Brave New World’ insiders say ‘everyone knew this is probably not going to be a good film’
Link information
This data is scraped automatically and may be incorrect.
- Title
- 'I Think Everyone Knew This Is Probably Not Going to Be a Good Film'
- Authors
- Chris Lee
- Published
- Feb 13 2025
- Word count
- 1157 words
While I don't have high hopes for the film, I feel like some of the issues presented are a bit of a stretch. For example:
For one, Red Hulk is pretty clearly red. If he was a bright tangerine orange color then I could maybe see it, but the color is a furious red that isn't mistakable. For another thing, Trump isn't much of a military leader. Yes, he is Commander in Chief, but he has no military experience beyond that (that I'm aware of). Ross is a former general, secretary of state, and spearhead for the Sokovia Accords - he has plenty of military and political experience, and was part of a move that still divides the fanbase today. While there may be some parallels, I don't think that they're as strong as the article wants them to be.
For the rest, we'll see. It seems like Mackie got flak for basically saying what Evans did 14 years ago, and what was a central theme of The Winter Soldier. Captain America represents the ideals of freedom that America prides itself in, not just the word "America" or just us as a nation - especially if we have strayed from those ideals.
I'll be seeing it tomorrow evening, my wife is a bigger comic fan than I am so she's more enthusiastic than I am. I'll try to come back and give an honest review on its own merits after. Right now the most damning issues that have been brought up are ones that could apply to any film - reshot scenes, rewritten scenes (to avoid similarities with current events), and last-minute additions.
By far the biggest conceptual issue is no one wanted a falcon movie, and Mackie has proven time and time again that he isn’t a leading man. After ruining Altered Carbon season 2, it should have been clear that he works better in a supporting role. Asking him to carry one of the flagship characters of Marvel was always going to be too big of a job for a character without super soldier serum and an actor without any star power.
In the comics, Sam Wilson has held the mantle of Captain America much longer than Bucky did, IIRC. While they could have handed the role to Bucky first, I think it would have been too hard for casual audiences to accept that Captain America is a mantle that gets passed around, not just a singular person. Sticking with the people who filled the role the longest is the simplest option imo, which means Bucky gets skipped.
IMO, Sam has to be Captain America since he's the normal guy thrown into this crazy nonsense with nothing but his ideals and principles, just like Steve was. Bucky is good at what he does, and it's admirable what he's been through, but he's not the guy who could do this all day, and they work better as a foil for one another.
One could argue that's actually a reason to choose Bucky, however, as it would clearly set him apart from Steve Rogers' Captain America.
Personally, my lack of interest is far less to do with the choice of who gets the mantle; the lack of quality in writing and the overall boring-sounding premises to the latest Captain America stuff is what kept me from watching any of it. I loved Winter Soldier, and enjoyed Civil War, so all of these follow-ups have been quite disappointing.
Perhaps, but I'm of the belief that nobody wanted another solo Captain America movie anyways.
I don't know why it matters...? Some of the best stuff to come out from Marvel has been stuff that nobody asked for.
The problem isn't whether it's something people are asking for, it's whether or not it was made because there was a character story to tell or if it was made to advance the ongoing Phase plotline(s).
For example, WandaVision and Agatha All Along very much felt like they were made to tell those characters' stories.
While Quantumania and Multiverse of Madness felt very much like they were made to advance the Phase plotline.
I'm not yet sure where this movie is going to fit in, but unfortunately it feels a bit more like the latter.
For Altered Carbon they chopped up and added to the first book in ways that left them in a rough position going forward and then smashed pieces of the 2nd/3rd book together with the vaguest possible cheesy revolution plotline.
Complaining that Mackie was the lead is like complaining that Malfoy or Joffery were slappable.
This is the part that baffles me, as a casual viewer who lost (most) interest after Endgame. How can he be a superhero without having any superpowers? Hell, how can he even survive working alongside superheroes that actually have superpowers? I get the impression his gear/shield can protect him from a lot, but it seems like an ordinary person could easily be killed in one of the many huge battles.
Iron Man is in the same universe, so I don't understand this thought process. Black widow was also here. (And they only died because the plot said they had to, there's nothing inherent about it.) And Falcon was already doing superhero work before the mantle was passed to him.
Tony Stark is also a super genius. Who maintains Falcon's wings for him? How does he take more than one punch from a superpowered being without dying? At least with Iron Man, he's much more heavily armored. Why is he able to sling the shield so effectively without super strength and also so precisely? There was a training montage and then he gained the ability to do so.
Falcon the character went from relatively ordinary person that flies around with hit and run tactics to basically a superpowered human being while pretending like they're not. I gave up on the MCU around the end of the Falcon show so if they answered my questions above I'm not aware. I've also just forgotten a lot of post Endgame content given how boring it was.
So is it super powers or not that is the issue? Because Tony didn't have them, smarts or not.
The whole point of him is that he's the hero that worked hard for it and has the strong moral standards akin to Rogers. His issue was believing he was worthy. Which is why he's the better choice over Bucky whose issue is atoning for the harm he caused and having fewer moral qualms.
Who ever maintained the equipment of any of them besides Tony? Probably that's the same people maintaining it now. Falcon takes punches because that's how comics work, but also, as always, vibranium.
I'm not saying anyone has to enjoy Marvel, I'm also meh about a lot of it because I am meh about a lot of media in general. But I don't think Sam being Cap is the problem, it's just telling a story that people didn't expect but it's true to the spirit of Captain America IMO.
And him being Black adds a level of conflict to that story that is much more honest about America than Rogers's story was. It's not just that America has turned on its values, it's always been in conflict with its values. That's compelling to me when you put that in the hands of someone wearing the flag as a symbol, and relevant to many of my feelings about my country. Too deep for a marvel thread, maybe, but here we are.
In Sam's case, it's the lack of super powers because of the feats they have him doing. They don't match. Tony Stark (no powers) could tank hits because of his armor. Steve Rogers could throw the shield because he was superhuman. I look at the shield, the speed it's thrown at, and I inherently know a normal human like me could not do it. And I certainly couldn't catch it after it ricochets back. I watch Steve do it and subconsciously accept it because he's superhuman. I watch Falcon do it and I'm confused why he can do it. I can't suspend my disbelief. I watch Black Widow (no powers) and I can suspend my disbelief because she's not doing anything egregiously physics defying for a "normal" human.
Imo black widow was absolutely doing things that humans wouldn't be able to do successfully.
I don't have the issue you have suspending disbelief, it's a fantasy movie in a universe where power levels vary widely depending on writer and plot, and always have. Falcon is a hero, so he operates on hero rules. His fighting style matches being a human with tech, and the point of him is that he's the normal guy.
I don't watch Marvel for reality, I watch it to see heroes fighting against the darkness and, eventually, winning.
That's great it works for you, but it doesn't work for me and I gave it the whole series in an attempt to try. In the end the MCU just lost me as a viewer and I'm not alone here. It sounds like they could make movies that work for me and you since what they're losing me on isn't something you'd care if they changed.
Disney is lazy. Instead of taking the time to make a movie exploring the social elements you're interested in, in a setting that Sam can operate in "realistically" that would cater to me, they just stick him into cookie cutter scenarios.
Iron Man was the first movie and it had already proven you could have both a political message and suspend disbelief (for more people).
I would actually probably care at this point if they just gave Sam powers if after the whole show where that was the thing he didn't want. It'd be a bad plot move now, and IMO a bad plot move then given all the characterization he'd had so far. When they tell stories about other characters, sure, those characters should have powers.
I don't really agree that they're putting him in "cookie cutter" scenarios. So I don't think it's an issue of "they could satisfy us both" but a "we're looking for different things from our entertainment." Daredevil survives being hit by a bus, Natasha survives getting hit by Hulk and Bucky, and takes down alien hovercars. The Dora Milaje beat Bucky and Walker and they and fight aliens right along side the supers while Shuri fights Killmonger. This is just how the world works. I get you don't like that, but it's been this way throughout the MCU and in the comics too. Galactus sometimes gets beat by a girl with the power of squirrels and sometimes defeats Doom.
I don't love Disney, they suck sometimes, but since Captain Marvel gets the opposite complaints - she's OP and isn't normal enough and should smile more - I get frustrated with picking apart the characters that aren't the original white dudes (Natasha gets sidelined but sure her too), particularly when 1 guy with a bunch of fancy tech gets a pass, but the other guy in better shape with a bunch of (ultimately superior Wakandan) tech doesn't.
Giving him powers somehow would be an obvious natural progression from being falcon (b tier) to captain America (a tier). The character now needs to face bigger challenges and is more centre stage to the story so it makes sense.
It's an option but his progression was believing he was worthy of of the mantle and that he should take it, not just that he could.
Since the point of him is that he doesn't need it and he already rejected it as part of his development, it's not the reasonable next step for him
Fair points, though I would argue that Iron Man's suit effectively fills the role of "superpowers". Maybe I just missed something, but is there something that makes Falcon stand out a la Black Widow's upbringing/training?
I guess the reason this case stood out to me more was because the original Captain America did have superpowers. I have no problem with someone taking over the Captain America mantle, I just don't understand why they didn't give him superpowers in that case. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, of course, since I'm not at all up to date on the lore and haven't really seen any of the shows, bar Wandavision and Loki.
I am of the opinion that the point of choosing Sam was that he was the man without superpowers who would take the moral stance of what was right the way Rogers would rather than the super powered man atoning for his sins who has a much wobblier sense of morality.
Him training and working hard was the point!
Totally agreed. Nonetheless I’m still hoping for a way for him to get a super serum without undercutting the moral disparity between him and John Walker in FatWS. It just limits his matchups if he doesn’t have it. I’m still perplexed on how he’s going to hold his own against Red Hulk, but maybe it’s more of an evasion game a la Black Widow in Avengers.
Yeah idk, and I'm less familiar with Red Hulk specifically and have been avoiding spoilers so I don't know. I think I'd like to keep him serum free given the plot leading up to this point. It'd be hard not to undercut the choice of him over Bucky. I'm not speculating too much on the movie coming out, I probably won't manage to see it in theaters - it's hard with disability stuff for my partner - and I'm trying to avoid getting spoiled.
I wrote a longer bit in another subthread that I appreciated how Cap!Sam (And Isaiah Bradley in the show) adds a layer of complexity to the story. This isn't a country that lost its way, it's a country that has always failed to live up to its values, even during WWII. And that is a more interesting moral place to exist in, even if Rogers will always represent the "ideal" values of America. I think that's what I'm more interested in with this movie.
Yeah I like your read on it; FatWS wasn’t super popular amongst my friends but I really did like its themes even if it was an imperfect show. I do hope to see some good scenes with Isaiah Bradley. I really liked his story.
It was definitely imperfect (though some criticisms show a lack of knowledge about how writing works. If they were afraid the bad guys were too charismatic or persuasive they don't have to make them have a turn on Act 3, they can rewrite Act 1 if that's the concern) but I thought it was enjoyable.
I get the criticism, it was more the almost conspiracy theory level "they don't want us to like the antagonists so they just made them do something bad to keep us down!" rather than "the pacing was a mess so the character arc was more cardiac telemetry than a curve"
I see how they got there - power reveals but also once you choose to abuse it, it's easier to keep going than to change course. But I liked the show overall.
Yeah I love a good head canon. I'm sure there are a few fanfics out there that do a good twist on the story to make it work better
I think for me it was just the same complaint/conspiracy about Killmonger. Like no, he's the bad guy because he would always to that far for his goals. They didn't make him bad because he was too sympathetic. (He did at least kill his gf with zero compunction early on but people forget about that i suppose)
That was much better paced overall but I've been seeing the same vaguely conspiratorial fan theory for years now
I absolutely heard those complaints with him, though I'd agree it mostly started with him (Thanos and Magneto also stand out but idk if the Thanos was right people believe that as much as they claim)
There are people who feel, especially in the face of persistent racial injustice that violence in the effort of liberation is not just justifiable but necessary. I can even understand that. It's not that different from Magneto who does go back and forth depending on the writing for how reasonable he is.
Was there any meta reason? I figured thatt Johannsen simply didn't want to continue (I get it, being typecast to a role for a decade, and an archetype for even longer). But she did take the time to do
WandavisionBlack Widow (2021) later.Then again, RDJ very much said he was done, and given spoilers... IDK what the hecks going on now.
She was in WandaVision?
Given she came back for Black Widow - a movie she should have gotten earlier, I don't know if there were other motivations. I think she got shafted by the writing and the execs that didn't think women or POC could carry movies or sell toys (I bought every Captain Marvel Funko pop when it came out) but my point was that there wasn't a reason they couldn't have survived due to not having powers. Not in a Marvel world - Tony's sacrifice being the noble ending is one thing, Natasha sort of got lost because of it.
well that's an unfortunate flub. I don't know why my mind wandered to Wanavision when writing this. Yes, I did mean Black Widow
Yeah, I agree. It's all down to writing (and probably some politics behind the scenes as well. No matter how powerful, Loki's cheated death one too many times to convince me that they simply keep wanting Hiddleson back). Many factors goes into it, not all necessarily for the artistic vision of the director
It's a fantasy world and it's mostly consistent with its rules but part of the rules are that the rules are inconsistent. And that can be annoying or it can let them tell whatever stories they want.
And redhead Elizabeth Olsen looks sort of Scarlet-esque so I can see it, I just had a whole moment of reviewing the show in my head for a flashback I forgot. 😅
Hmm, now that you mentioned it I would be a whole lot more invested in Marvel if someone died in combat instead of a heroic self-sacrifice, if for no reason other than a change of pace and reducing the strength of the concept of plot armor.
It certainly could happen, I think that's the interesting thing about Infinity War and Endgame...even if five minutes later when the movie was over I could say "oh yeah at least some of them come back"in the moment it was "oh shit he was NOT supposed to get the snap off.... Who's gonna go... Oh noooooo"
(I can usually separate the analysis part of things from my movie enjoyment in the moment. After the fact I may feel differently)
I can’t believe I completely forgot the snap.
Though the fact that they all got unsnapped might have weakened the impact in retrospect.
That's comics though. In the moment it was very effective. I knew they'd come back, but I figured they didn't all survive the fight (and tada) but that's analysis brain not movie enjoying brain.
My husband is addicted to watching those marvel speculation channels. This is probably the real reason why I don’t care much for Marvel stuff these days, honestly.
Now one of them is speculating on Severance and it’s driving me a bit crazy because he never even saw the first season. But at least he’s watching season 2 with me.
Oh I can watch reaction videos but not the "Easter eggs" or "marvel released a singular piece of news, let's do 3 hours on our guesses" sorts of shows. Especially as a captain Marvel fan
I just want to say I find it mildly hilarious that you managed to touch on this question without somehow bringing up hawkeye who is the poster child for this problem. To the point that even marvel has lampshaded it.
Tbh I forgot whether he had powers at the moment. He carried a whole show though just fine (and Kate Bishop and Yelena were also excellent and they all fought powered people).
I knew Daredevil's power set doesn't include strength and he handles heavy hits. I have no idea if Fisk has powers in this universe, I didn't enjoy the Marvel shows of that era
Ok no one else seems to have brought it up.
Did you mind hawkeye, because he was tromping around with a bow and a few never explained special arrows and did ok.
Honestly, I forgot he existed. I did always think he was a strange addition even though I like Jeremy Renner, and it felt like he randomly showed up one day and just kind of hung around - like they "included" him in the Avengers in the way an older sibling "includes" a younger sibling when they're hanging out with their friends, lol.
The super serum is already very underpowered for the marvels universe. It makes Cap the peak human, but that’s just… not very impressive, on a relative basis. In universe advance robotics can easily bridge the gap to peak human, and beyond (eg, iron man). Anything the original captain America could fight, I think falcon can easily fight. It’s just that neither makes all that much sense. If anything, the robotics are an easily cop out than “idk his muscles big strong suddenly”.
It does feel a little unoriginal, since he feels like Ironman but worse.
Honestly, as someone also bothered by Falcon "just" having wings, part of it was I thought the super serum was OP to the point of putting Cap on par with guys like Hulk or Thor (impossibly strong and could wipe out humanity if they wanted to, was also my assumption of their power level).
But what you're saying is that it basically just makes you a top olympic athelete and I "should" have been bothered by Cap this whole time?
I feel like that makes things make even less sense...which, to be fair, does make the suspension of disbelief easier lol. And to your point, of then filling that room of disbelief with "tech!" (eg, it's Cap's shield!)
I also was always bothered by Bucky being so weak and using guns as his main weapon...checks out
It also then makes me re-think Black Panther, as I thought thought he mostly got strength through the plant - not through the tech of his suit. But isn't the focus on him his "super serum"? Spent two movies focusing on it
Yeah pretty much. He's one of the biggest "uh, I'm supposed to pretend he's useful against thanos or ultron... how exactly?". A lot of powerlevel complaints were leveled against him in every avengers movie. Not the weakest, but certainly of people that get a lot of screentime, on the weaker side. Underselling him a little bit; he also has better senses than normal humans, better reaction time, trained in every martial art, can use every weapon, and has stamina far beyond humans.
I believe one of the movies lists it out pretty clearly, as there's a scene where the US government has a propanganda piece in-universe where they show his "insane" athletic ability in every category.
Would that change anything against Ultron, though? Not really?
He's also supposed to be super-intelligent, although the movies really don't show that well. That's the one X-factor, you can say his role in the avengers is a leadership one, but of course it's an action movie so he needs to be out on the field fighting against people who should be able to turn him into ground beef.
Which, to instill this point...he's one of the only ones to really getting a training montage right? When it's time to prepare for the fights, Tony's doing "science", Thor grips his hammer tighter, Hulk makes faces...and Cap trains
Thanks for the breakdown!
I would argue the writing did all the heavy lifting there, much like I feel it's doing in most of his scenes and films.
Maybe that's because he's hard to work with or doesn't have the range, but I think it's there. He's just been given shit scripts in my eyes.
I'm no-one I guess. It worked for Odysseus.
I'm absolutely on board with a Sam as Cap movie from jump and think Mackie doesn't lack "leading man" status or capabilities.
Not to harp on about this but I think 9/10 focus group members would disagree here. He is not an A list actor and has been an actor for long enough that the reason is not that he’s still a rising star. He just doesn’t have it the same way a Tom Cruise or a Robert Downey Jr does. He’s fine in comedic roles and as a supporting character, but he doesn’t carry a movie.
I didn't say "star" or "A list" status. I said "leading man" . He's perfectly capable of leading a movie and is charming and a good actor IMO. Whether he's been given or been interested in those opportunities in the past, I don't know.
Tom Cruise has not been relevant to me in decades (emphasis mine and intentional so I don't have to hear about how he's still relevant to other people) and RDJ was not the "it" guy his whole career, and I don't care about the comparison. As I said, I'm noone. Idk why it's important to tell me other people you have definitely polled on the subject disagree with me.
Maaaaan altered carbon season 1 was so good! And then Mackie came in and had 0 charisma with anyone he shared the screen with.
Joel Kinnaman was top notch in the role.
hasn’t it felt like they thought they had the new Will Smith in him? I like the guy — but he doesn’t have a lot of range.
like you said, he can’t lead.
My general take is that the level of quality marvel put into the early films is just gone. They've supplanted their competition (the Michael Bay yearly blockbuster) and now are just coasting. The things that made them attractive as opposed to the alternative was the good character development and pacing, and now it feels like it's the same "oh we'll do this trope" slop you've seen everywhere else.
Yeah, it really does feel like they are coasting doesn’t it? I’ve never been super enthused about the MCU, but Winter Soldier ended up surprising me with how good it was and most of the Avengers ended up being good even though it seemed like it would have been so easy to drop the ball on those films.
Pivoting them to TV series seemed like it would have been a great fit for comic book adaptations because it allowed them more time to build on those more complex storylines. But more often than not they floundered and ended up making more plot holes and unexplained phenomenon than anything (I’m honestly still pissed off that Vision just yeeted himself out of the entire MCU in Wandavision after being resurrected). The only thing I have really liked since then was Agatha All Along.
I feel like some of this is just the inevitable entropy of movie/show production. It's already a hellishly chaotic environment to try and write and create for, and the fact they managed to wrangle soooo many resources in a coherent manner for any length of time will always be a wonder of the world in my eyes.
But, as with all things, even ignoring desires to have producers meddle in things, I feel like you just hit this point where it's got too many moving parts for even someone with a strong vision to manage. In endlessly expanding it they've lost control of the narrative, literally, and the kang issue was just the death knell of any real hope.
Recent films felt like someone serious wrote the "good parts", and then they just copy pasted like every other action film from the "plot adlibs" book for the rest of it, and that's actually so much worse than plot holes. What made those early movies good was they were legit good. That little scene with the avengers around the table and cap almost lifting the hammer is PHENOMENAL story telling on so many levels, and yet you just don't get anything near that level anymore.
And that's of course before we even consider the reality of a zillion leeches trying to get their cut, production issues, perceived and actual politics, focus groups, conflicting goals, and everything else that goes into these kinds of massive nightmare runaway money making projects.
The earlier films were run by Marvel mostly. When Disney bought them out, things did change. The level of drinking Tony does, for example. Share holders demand consistent rise.
I’m sure if Marvel were solely running things they would have had a better time trying to diversify more with their other generes. They’ve been a little luke warm in really trying to branch out since we saw the first attempts with winter solider and Guardians. Doctor Strange was probably the last successful attempt at adding a new genere, but it hasn’t felt like they have been devoted to magic since instead they started dropping them onto TV. This also likely had to do with the number of properties they were trying to do all at once.
Superheroes may be done. I think we’re going to head into the death of the super hero and give way to the rise of mutants.
Disney bought Marvel back in 2009, and they were fully integrated under Disney in 2015. As much as I deplore some of the decisions Disney has made lately, I'm not sure they can take the whole blame since a lot of great Marvel movies came out under their watch.
As someone who's never really been a Marvel (or comic book, or superhero) fan, I found the earlier movies really entertaining. The characters were easy to care about and you felt there was real skin in the game in the challenges they faced. But there came a point where it just became too much for me. I believe it's not long after the Doctor Strange movie came out, and it definitely died after Avengers End Game. It felt like there were too many movies out in short succession, too many characters I was being asked to care about but no effort was made to make them compelling, and too many things to keep track of.
I'm sure Disney is partly to blame for this, but it seems to be an problem plaguing other franchises too - Jurassic Park, the Harry Potter adjacent movies, some of the DC movies (though they've been on point for some of the animation stuff). As someone who's not a fan of any of those franchises, it feels like they're not even interested in catering to wider audiences anymore, it's all about wringing money out of loyal fans. They stopped giving a crap about writing good stories or building characters we can care about.
It’s the same for my wife, she has fatigue and doesn’t care about the new characters. It’s also a common problem with Disney in general over the last decade. Star Wars is facing the same issues. The shows that are praised were the ones that were left alone to fly under the radar to do their own thing (Mandalorian S1, Andor and Skeleton Crew). The larger stuff like the new trilogy, Obi Wan, Boba Fett, Ahsoka and probably Acolyte had more meddling and very mixed reviews.
Yeah and let's not even get started on the live action remake insanity...
And it looks like even DreamWorks is going to follow suit with the live action remake of How to Train Your Dragon. They're really out to ruin childhood huh?
Mind clarifying what you mean here? Did he drink more in later movies, and I've just forgotten?
It was the opposite. The level of drinking went down. The third movie was supposed to be about the “Demon in a bottle” story line where he becomes an alcoholic and goes overboard. Instead Disney made them remove that so Marvel pivoted to Tony having a mental breakdown from the past events.
In Iron Man 2.
In the comics, in the '80s, Tony developed a deep and dangerous alcoholism. Rhodey started wearing the suit because someone had to be Iron Man.
I feel like this is something Disney will get around to when they're over their overarching MCU and get to what equals DC's Elseworlds thing.
I guess they kinda are there, but things like the upcoming Fantastic Four movie still apparently being tied to family friendly MCU multiverse (even though it's its own universe) they aren't really ready to revisit established characters with stories that parents might deem unfit for their kids. I don't think Deadpool fits this category because it's just more blood and "fucks" than your average MCU movie. We'll see if they ever get rid of the comedy angle with these popcorn movies.
I'd argue that the hype just isn't there anymore. The film's may not be as zazzy, but that's because we're hip to the tricks of wise cracks, layered plots and superheroes realized in 3D. It's just not novel
While sure there’s some level of burnout or getting over the novelty, I think you can objectively show that something like avengers is vastly better written than quantumania
I'd agree, but I'll also hold up Loki and Wandavision as great TV experiences with Agatha as a solid 'good' for what it is.
I feel like there's been 3 stages of Marvel movies.
The first was Phase 1-2, where they were generic super hero movies.
The second was Phase 2-3, where they started exploring more genres besides "super hero movie"; eg starting with GotG being a sci-fi adventure, new Caps being political thrillers, Thor being an outright comedy. I'm assuming this is the start of the Disney coming in part.
Now the third is everything post-Endgame, which is almost entirely a mess and feels very corelated to too many cooks in the kicthen. There's rarely coherency or congruency through the phases, rather mostly slop like you said.
I feel like if they went back to that first stage of just "generic super hero movie" they could bounce back. They wouldn't be as popular as the second strage, but frankly I don't think that second stage is sustainable - it's basically "release nothing but good movies until the end of time" to sustain. Getting more niche means less relying on being good to the general public, which I feel like is how Marvel got to that point anyway.
Like, I have to admit I'm not part of that niche and did not like early Marvel movies (Wakititi coming in was why I let myself get dragged to one again). But I saw just how many people did and I feel like that needs to be the focus. Maybe it builts up into something like Infinity War/End Game that brings people like me in, maybe it doesn't. But you can't force it to happen, and at least you have a consistent base if it doesn't.
Disney bought Marvel in Dec 2009. Iron Man had released, but Captain America, Thor and Hulk were well under way for Paramount Pictures by then, I’m not sure how much input they had for Iron Man 2, but people complained it felt like a filler movie trying to build up to Avengers. I think Phase 2 and Iron Man 3 was the first movie where Disney was fully involved. You can tell Phase 2 was about trying things out. I assumed Disney looked at what worked in Phase 2 and said “just do more of this please” for Phase 3 I remember there being push back to trying to get Black Panther and Captain Marvel made, since they were gambles.
As someone just getting into movies, can you recommend which older superhero movies are worth watching, and for which the plot will still make sense if I skip the bad ones?
It honestly depends on how many movies you want to watch, but if you have time, watch everything from Iron Man to Endgame. You’ll know where you want to continue, if you do.
If you don’t want to watch 22 movies. Then maybe
Iron Man
Captain America: The First Avenger
The Avengers
Guardians of the Galaxy
Captain America: Winter Solider
Avengers Age of Ultron
Captain America: Civil War
Doctor Strange
Ragnarok
Infinity War
Endgame
This gives you a good understanding of IronMan and Captain America (The two most important heroes), the politics and the origin of most of the infinity stones (to get a general understanding of why they are important)
You will probably not know some of the characters and some smaller events, but the Avengers movies do an okay job of summarizing relationships. One thing you have to understand about comic books is that there is decades of history and new readers all the time. They had to deal with this issue constantly in the comic books, so the writers had to kind of summarize things at the start of every new arc. The movies try to do the same within the limited time they have.
@Caleum gives a pretty good list for the MCU, maybe Thor Ragnarok as well, because it's pretty fun and introduces some secondary cast to the board that the Avengers and GotG Movies don't cover.
Outside of that, we have other Marvel franchises, like Spider-Man, X-Men and all of their reboots. The 2000's Spider-Man films were groundbreaking, but a lot of their ground was covered better in future movies. We also have DC, with their franchise universe and their previous movies. Their original Superman with Christopher Reeves is considered a classic, and both Nolan and Burton's Batman films changed the genre.
Outside of Marvel and DC adaptations, I like Megamind, Chronicle, and the 90's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which probably didn't age as well as I think it did. With cape stuff in movies though, you start to get into genre questions. If a superhero movie follows an empowered person doing incredible things, how is that separated from an action hero, a mythological hero, or a sports hero?
Pretty much everything going up to Endgame is worth watching. Even some of the weakest ones (e.g., Thor: Dark World) end up having enough relevance that I wouldn't suggest skipping.
Post-Endgame, though, that answer is still unclear and we probably won't be able to give a clear answer on what's relevant until after Avengers: Secret Wars, at the earliest.
Think other recs are fine, my personal "at least good enough to great" list and fine for plot is-
Films:
Phase One
Iron Man
Captain America
The Avengers
Phase Two
Iron Man 3
Captain America winter soldier
Guardians of the Galaxy
Avengers Age of Ultron
soooooorta Ant Man
Phase 3
Captain America Civil War
Doctor Strange
Guardians of the Galaxy 2
Spider Man homecoming
Thor Ragnarok
Black Panther
Infinity War
Ant-Man and the Wasp
maaaaaybe captain marvel
Avengers endgame
Spiderman far from home
Phase 4
Black Widow
Shang Chi
Spider Man No Way Home
Doctor Strange and the multiverse of madness
maaaaybe Thor love and thunder/Black Panther Wakanda Forever.
Phase 5
uhh....Gaurdians of the Galaxy
Dead pool and wolverine
Ant Man Quantumania is....there's something glorious in what they were going to do with Kang, but god it feels like a bog standard ad libs plot with moments of greatness (i love the literal last scene but it's not worth it for that, paul rudd is so wasted by marvel).
Shows
Pre Phase:
Daredevil (s1 is stellar, the rest.....are uhh....horrifically inconsistent)
Jessica Jones (similar)
Luke cage (like...the first half)
The Punisher
Phase 4
Loki
Wanda Vision
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
Hawkeye
Moon Knight
Phase 5
Literally haven't gotten around to any of these yet. Started Secret invasion and just...ugh. What a letdown/snoozefest/character assassination.
Anything not on this list I either found extremely bad with no redeeming plot information you can't quickly pick up (thor is a crappy romance and you'll figure him out in like 10 seconds), just got so many meh reviews from people who do like this stuff a ton that I decided I certainly wouldn't (The marvels/eternals), or I just haven't gotten around to seeing (wakanda forever)
Captain America has had the worst luck tackling contemporary issues post Endgame. Falcon's show was about how to navigate a bunch of racial tension and a protest movement in the wake of a global catastrophy, and was released during a time of racial tension and a protest movement in the wake of a global catastrophy. Now this movie has a whole lot issues that cropped up during production where a president character gets empowered far beyond what we believed what's possible, and after a fight with the good guys, they have to team up to fight some bad weirdo and shake hands afterwards like everythings cool.
I can't hold the movie at fault for the circumstance, but I have to wonder if there is X-Men activity on the horizon, how does the Walt Disney Company release a four quadrant crowd pleaser about a group of people who are, through the circumstances of their innate nature, being feared and hated for living their lives openly, and not put out the press release that this doesn't have to do with current events, no siree Bob?
I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's hard to please everyone, and in trying to appeal to everyone they may please no-one. Old superhero faithfuls like Superman and Captain America were famous in part for fervently supporting American ideals and opposing discrimination during WW2.
Watering down the films and refusing to take any stance makes them boring movies with nothing to say. Maybe the explosions and CGI draw some diehards into theatres, but they aren't starting or furthering any conversations. As has been repeatedly shown in the age of social media, any attention is good attention.
I mentioned that I was going to see this film, and that I'd come back to review it. I'm a few days late, but here's as spoiler-free of a review as I can give:
Overall, it's much better than critical scores claim it is. It is far from the worst of the MCU, and despite multiple writer changes it has a cohesive plot and mostly decent dialogue. The villain monologues are the worst of the writing, but Sam's lines were pretty solid and lacked a lot of the MCU "quippiness" that I've come to expect. Sam came across as thoughtful and conflicted, as he had personal loyalties and patriotic duties pulling him in seemingly opposite directions. I'm not a very critical viewer, but as a lead I thought that Anthony Mackie did just fine.
As for connections to the rest of the MCU, it definitely seems like one of those films that has a bunch of important details that will come up later. You don't have to watch Falcon & Winter Soldier to understand the characters' backgrounds and moral conflicts, as each character is introduced in turn and their background is explained without making it seem like they're talking down to the audience. It has a surprising connection to the Eternals, and it potentially sets the stage for several characters to return to come back within the MCU. There's also the obvious connections back to earlier Captain America films, as well as the end of Endgame with the passing of the torch.
I particularly enjoyed how they showed how Sam is able to fill the shoes of Captain America without being a super-soldier, and the first 5 minutes or so was a fantastic introduction to the new Cap. From the start to the end, Sam shined whenever combat involved the use of his wings. I could constantly spot technical advancements from within the MCU related to other characters, such as jets that looked like they used Iron Man's repulsor tech.
Overall, I think this is a very enjoyable film, and I think it got too much heat before it even came out. Yes, there are weak points with the villain's plot and dialogue, but the leads were solid and the new characters were fun. If you're worried about the critical response, I'd say it's overblown, and it's much more likely that people are just more critical of MCU films as superhero fatigue gets worse. Granted, I've only seen a few MCU films since Endgame, but I still think this one deserves a positive reception.
Yeah I'm with you on this. I went to see it and came away thinking it was actually pretty decent? Not the best they've churned out, but far from the worst. Aside from the bits where it assumes you've seen other Marvel media I quite enjoyed it.
I'm not American, but I don't understand the complaints about it in regard to modern politics. It seemed pretty unrelated to me.
Well, darn it. I’m going to have to rewatch it when it’s on streaming now because you have me wondering if my negative impression is valid or if I’m resisting changes to how the franchise is adapting. Or something else. Something about the writing or delivery or tone or story rubbed me wrong. It’s possible that my personal state regarding real world politics has interfered with my ability to just enjoy this flick.
I’m curious to revisit now at least. Not in a theater though. It will take a rather large reassessment for me to move off the idea that the story was butchered because of current US politics - but I’m open to the possibility.
Mirror: https://archive.is/syqZF
Oof. Just got out of it. It’s got issues. What a confused movie.
Is it a spoiler if I say that the title card didn’t even say “Captain America”?
I kinda feel like this was a good movie that got eviscerated for all the reasons. I wonder if there’s an edit that doesn’t throw nonsense lines in the air with terrible exposition every seven minutes.
Oh, and those were satellite dishes, not telescopes. Yes. It was that dumb.
What a bummer.
Satellite dishes can be made into a telescope. There's no real distinction between the two, except in how they're used.
Should we make a discussion thread for the movie now that it's out? I saw it, though it was okay for what it was. I'm a little overexposed on politics right now, so I had little patience for everything going to shit geopolitically but wrapping up nicely in a couple hours with people who've learned lessons. I also had some issues with the marketing selling the movie as something it wasn't, without too much spoilers.
Without spoiling anything, this feels like it had Marvel Studios intervention. There was a solid and good movie here, but then the Execs needed all this other stuff added in. Suffice it to say the actual problem is that this is two movies trying to be one.
It's so sad because this used to be the thing DC kept fucking up and marvel managed to be decent about.
Someone needs to go up to the Marvel executives and hit em with the old "YOU need to do better, producer"