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Benefit of not having downvotes: I can say that I enjoy The Phantom Menace
while its not the best star wars movie, it isn't the abomination that people make it out to be. its legitimately fun to watch and comfy with all its bad CGI.
Favorite star wars movies in order: IV, V, Solo, VII, I, VIII, VI, Rogue One, III, II
The best part about Episode I, in my opinion, is the end. It's similar to the end of Episode IV, it's a big celebration with a ceremony to honor the heroes. But it's completely subversive, because while it looks like another big time victory for the good guys, it's actually the catalyst that makes Palpatine's power move possible in episode III. The heroes succeed in advancing the goals of a dark lord of the Sith and celebrate it unknowingly. It's probably the most subversive thing in the whole series.
That said, it's very bad in numerous ways so many people have pointed out better than I ever could. Though, I admit, I found more respect for it after reading about the Star Wars ring theory.
Satan's balls, I've been writing for twenty years and this is the first I've heard about "ring theory". Thanks for posting this.
This was my introduction to ring poetry as well. Which I feel kind of sad about since I took two semesters of creative writing.
I studied computer science, and this never came up. :)
It's amazing how so much effort can be put into making a few poorly made films seem somehow artistic because they are poorly made. I wish I had enough respect for George Lucas to believe that he had some sort of actual grand design. In reality, everything we know about him leads me to believe that he was just shotgunning ideas from the original trilogy while relying on the ILM CGI crutch so he didn't have to do as much actual work.
The sad part is that the plot of the movies aren't even bad. In fact, they're more interesting than the original trilogy's. John Williams also made a fantastic new score. The issue is that the writing, acting, direction, special effects and filmography all suck.
I believe George Lucas has come out and pretty much said that was his vision for the prequels. Something about how they are suppose to rhyme with the original trilogy, and be sorta like the opposite direction of them.
Thing is, while it sounds great in theory, what he gave us certainly did not live up to it. Though that more has to do with Lucas being a terrible director and screen writer when he is surrounded by yes men. Apparently IV was a hot mess till his wife at the time edited the hell out of it.
The overall arch of the films is not only a very good layout for a trilogy, but oddly prescient. A decadent democratic society is, within a generation, swept up by fascism. Unlike the Order in the new sequels, the threat doesn't just appear ex-nihilo. Instead, it comes from the rot of the system itself, which is seized by a power hungry actor working within the system. The final turn comes from a confused young man that knows the society he lives in isn't equitable nor fair, but without a frame work on how to critique it, and being denied that framework by his peers by being sushed, he turns to the only person who welcomes him, a fascist.
It's a shame, like you said, the actual script writing, the acting (outside of McGregor and some of the voice actors giving life to the CG) and direction are all very bad. It feels much more like a Star Wars story than the current round of sequels do.
I like that ring theory brings up interesting parallels but doesn't seem to acknowledge that the grand vision it suggests Star Wars has could have been accomplished just as well with much better dialogue, a more compelling prequel Anakin, etc.
Yeah, he seems to purposefully stay away from criticism entirely. He doesn't even lampshade it. I guess he wants to try to remain "neutral" maybe? Regardless, it's tough not to admit just how bad the dialog is written, how stilted the direction is, etc.
It’s not really relevant to the point they’re trying to make. The author is discussing the structure of the series, not the quality of the individual movies.
I love ring theory. Though, personally, if you have to explain it - it's bad. Just like jokes.
This has got to be the most confusing ranking of the movies I've ever seen hahaha. I'm sure you have reasons but whew. Just funny seeing someone relatively opposite on the important movies.
I would probably say there are a few ties in my ranking but the best I can do is.
S tier - 5, (Clone wars animated series)
A - 4, Rogue one, 8
B - 6, Solo, (Rebels Animated)
C - 7, 3, 1
D - 2
Edit: Each tier can be read best > worst
S and A tier obviously really enjoy, B tier I still actively enjoy, C tier like parts of the movie/series and dislike others, D ranking is tough to watch.
You may be the only person who I've seen mention that they liked The Last Jedi.
That's odd considering it got almost universal critical acclaim and an excellent cinemascore. I guess if your main source of movie opinions is Reddit I can see how you would only have seen TLJ hate. They're pretty... vocal about it.
I've definitely heard a lot of people against it and I do think there are plenty of valid criticisms. But to me the big moments definitely overshadowed the parts I didn't like.
I thought the force awakens was worth of criticism, mostly from being almost copy pasted from A New Hope. But I actually like a lot of what they did with TLJ simply because they decided to be pretty bold with it.
I'm a huge fan of star wars for decades at this point and totally get why people could expect something different. I'm fairly well versed in the EU things (mostly love the older time periods like Bane and Old republic or even pre-republic) and I knew the new movies weren't required to take anything from that lineage. I feel like they have done a great job of at least trying though. Not with the new movies but acknowledging the favorite parts that got "legend"ed with Thrawn and How Chewie met Han. It feels like they are at least trying to pay homage while still writing their own stories.
Most of my complaints are honestly just that I want more questions answered. Which I hear a lot of people saying. But if you look at the original movies we didn't know anymore about them in the moment then. We just had to wait. So I can't knock that.
Personally I loved the Yoda portion. Kylo feels like diet Vader, but since they are purposely aiming for that I believe it's intentional. The casino was essentially a waste, but so was going to Bespin in ESB. They didn't save anyone and almost got captured. Luke even lost a hand. I like the added force connection scenes even if the shirtless part was unnecessary. Adding depth to Kylo really makes you almost feel bad for him.
My main requirements are that they answer enough in 9 to not leave us still wondering wtf snoke came from, how did he just take over the remnants, and obviously end our story with Kylo.
The Last Jedi... I have a lot of things to say about this movie, but for both our sakes I’ll just mention one thing that irked me: the death of Luke Skywalker.
The idea of killing him is okay. Him sacrificing his life for the sake of the rebellion isn’t very original (it’s literally what obi-wan did), but I’ll give it a pass.
But why did they have to kill him twice? When the AT-ATs were blasting him and he was ignoring every shot, I had finally received the badass Luke moment I’ve been waiting for. When he begins to duel Kylo, I could see his death coming a mile away. Kylo would swing at his side, and his robe would collapse. A touching end to a beloved character. I was okay with his death. Then Kylo swings...
But wait!
He was a hologram the whole time! The perfect plan! He could stall, survive anything they throw at him, and continue to lead the rebellion! Brilliant!
But wait!
He dies anyway.
No dramatic battle, no epic sacrifice, he just passes out. I didn’t even fully realize he was dead until the body disappeared.
And why did he die? A fucking aneurism. Luke Skywalker, savior of the Star Wars universe, was killed because he was old and strained himself.
Whose idea was that? They already had a perfectly fine death scene in the movie. They even showed his X-wing in the water, so it wouldn’t have been unreasonable for him to fly there. It’s as if they had written two scenes for his death, couldn’t decide which to use, and said “fuck it let’s just do both”.
Just give Luke his green lightsaber back and have Kylo strike him down like Vader with Obi-Wan.
There was no need for his “grand reveal”. It just makes the preceding scenes worse once you realize that he didn’t actually meet Leah, he didn’t actually give her those dice (good thing she didn’t keep them), his appearance in the rear of the cave leading to the exit was just a coincidence, and he didn’t actually be a badass and block all of the AT-AT artillery.
He just projected himself and dies of the same disease his mother had, and the same disease that put his sister in a coma: shitty writerihg.
Yeah I can see that. I was also a little "uh why'd he die exactly?" but I think it was supposed to just be him fulfilling his mission in his body and moving into the force. Yoda died of just old age. Obi at least had a purpose to distract.
Honestly my overall opinion on it is going to depend heavily on the next movie and what they do with it/if they can make it important.
I think the big thing I disagree with is this
Luke didn't want to be a leader. He purposely secluded himself because he felt he was unfit to lead. He didn't want to teach Rey. He specifically tried to destroy everything about the jedi. At no point in the movie was he actually trying to lead or be a good leader. The last act there only shows him coming back to help his friends before going "I'm old and done with all this".
That's really why I think they did it. The only quip I have against that is that if Luke was this disgruntled and literally attempted to destroy the entire knowledge of the jedi, then how was he "one with the force" enough to do the ghost vanish.
I think it would have been a ok-bad movie if it was its own thing. But being part cannon of starwars added even more plot holes to a movie already full of them.
The Last Jedi is like a really great movie combined with a really mediocre movie in my opinion. I loved the Rey, Skywalker, Kylo, Snoke plot thread, it's some of my favorite Star Wars.
The second plot thread, with Finn and Rose, feels like an entirely different movie. It's great they went serious and subversive with the Rey and Kylo subplot, but it clashes tonally with the Finn and Rose casino plot, which felt like yet another standard big budget adventure romp (a la Valerian, Jurassic World, Ready Player 1, etc).
I like this description of it and can agree that the two felt very different. I don't know if it ruined anything personally for me being so different but I definitely know what you mean.
These would be my choices based off of your rating system. I haven't bothered to see Solo because I was so disappointed in The Last Jedi and heard bad reviews about it.
S tier - Empire Strikes Back; Clone Wars
A - A New Hope; Return of the Jedi;
B - The Force Awakens; Rebels
C - The Phantom Menace; Revenge of the Sith; Rogue One
D - Attack of the Clones; The Last Jedi
Z - Holiday Special; An Ewok Adventure
Interesting ones on your ranking to me were the Force Awakens being so high. The entire time I was watching I was like "I'm glad we have a new star wars but DAMN they ripped off a new hope." Also what did you dislike about the last jedi so badly?
I think I really liked all of the characters they introduced in The Force Awakens and thought Han's death was very powerful as well as Kylo Ren's struggles. I agree that they really ripped off A New Hope and the attack on the Starkiller Base was pretty uninspired but overall I felt the movie was entertaining enough to dismiss that.
The Last Jedi felt extremely unfocused and there was a lot of unnecessary filler. Finn's entire side story seemed just tacked on and didn't really have any consequences beyond picking up the code breaker. I wanted to like Rose so bad but I feel like she was underutilized. There was a lot of oddball moments that made me cringe like Luke with the milk, Finn's goofy shenanigans after waking up from the cryo bed, half-naked Kylo, and Leia floating around. The fight where Kylo and Rey team up was so badly done both with choreography and cinematography. The whole plot point of Rey having a mysterious backstory set up in The Force Awakens and then being told it's actually really mundane felt cheap. Also I felt this movie would have been a great time to have the Knights of Ren actually show up or explained where they went to. And it went and did the same thing that The Force Awakens did and rehashed a lot of plot from Empire Strikes Back with the hopeless battle, the AT-AT's on an open field, the apprentice learning from the kooky old Jedi Master while their companions are in danger, etc.
What I did like was the relationship between Kylo Ren and Rey. Their connection is really interesting and how they share the same struggles with trying to understand themselves. I also liked the flashback with Luke almost killing Kylo and seeing how it went wrong.
Man there's a ton here that is almost opposite to my opinion so I'll hit what I agree with first.
Agree with these but I think we agree these are really not that big of a deal.
I also agree with your likes
This is my first disagreement
To me TFA was too much of a copy from ANH that it felt rehashed. With TLJ it felt like it paralleled it without ever being too derivative. Yes they have the young trainee find the old master to learn. This is a trope though basically. Who else do you learn from but a master? This has been in everything from Karate Kid to Kill Bill to the Matrix. Anything with combat almost.
Continuing with the rehashed discussion
This also mirrors ESB though. Luke went to Bespin and got nothing. He didn't save his friends, he didn't defeat Vader, and he lost a hand in the process. If you disliked it in TLJ did you also in ESB?
I really don't know how you didn't enjoy this one. Even excluding the twist that kicks it off, legitimately never heard anyone say they don't like this scene. Many putting it as their favorite part of the entire movie. I have to really disagree with not liking it but of course we're all just sharing opinions. The cap on it was the end where she actually considers taking his hand. That to me was so well done that Kylo finally has some form of companionship even briefly and then it's ripped away again. Of course that and the Snoke twist are not directly what you were complaining about but just the whole sandwich with (imo) a great fight scene between two key plot points is just tasty.
I actually like that it was just mundane. The entire time we're going... is she Ren's brother? Half brother? Is she Luke's kid? Obi-wan's kid?? WHO IS SHE. Then to have the whole mirror scene (which was also super cool how it was reminiscently done to mirror many other descriptions of force temples/nexuses (Double mirroring ESB and the cave on Degobah)) then to just reveal that she is no one. She doesn't need a lineage. She's just her.
To me that was super refreshing because it subverted your expectations. It differentiated itself from the ESB. TFA didn't actually set up her mysterious origins. People read into it that her family was actually some famous person just dropping her off to nobly storm back in and rescue her. In reality she was what we originally thought Luke was. In the start of ANH Luke was just a farmer. Then you hear his father was a warrior. You start to get the inlkings of greatness and then of course the reveal of Vader cements Luke's "celebrity status" in the star wars lore. Whereas with Rey it's the proof that Jedi can spring up ANYWHERE. And that's what makes them so powerful. This is doubly echoed by the slave kid with the broom at the very ending. Showing exactly that a spark of rebellion, both in reference to the old and new rebellions but also to the Jedi and the Sith simultaneously.
I thought it was very well woven together to hammer that point home.
Yeah the difference between whether it's easier to forgive The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi rehashing plots is probably entirely personal preference. I think though that I was willing to forgive The Force Awakens if The Last Jedi took a radical departure from the format of the original trilogy which I didn't think it was enough of a change.
I did enjoy the scene overall. It was well-written and acted. I just thought the actual fight looked pretty unpolished and looked like it was a set on a Hollywood stage. Which of course it was but it was messing with my immersion.
This is a great point and one I didn't really think of.
See I'm fine with the same pattern but not the same story. TFA felt like the same story. TLJ felt like the same format.
The biggest thing that changed my opinion of the sequels has been considering what we knew when watching the OT and comparing the sequels to that. It's impossible to remember exactly because when I see Luke now I already know him, his grandpa, his sister, his entire life from birth to death. It's really hard to remember that first scene he was just a boy wanting to get out into space.
The same theme kind of rolls over a lot of issues I see people bringing up (that I originally disliked too). This covers "the casino was actually pointless!" all the way to "where the hell did Snoke come from and who is he".
Bespin is just as useless and we never knew where Vader or the Emperor came from either. But with the hindsight of another trilogy we forget all that stuff we didn't know.
Right on!
I hate just listing them best to worst because I could totally see some people placing a few closely rated movies a little higher or lower.
Honestly I would really suggest them to anyone with the disclaimer that it takes a season or 2 to find their voice and writing style. After that it's alllllll gravy.
It actually made the prequels worth having to me because the clone wars was so amazing.
Clone Wars is fantastic but takes a little bit to get into. The first season or two they were largely focusing on younger audiences but the series noticeably matures over time. What's interesting about it is they often do story arcs that take place over several episodes which is where the real gems happen. It also has the benefit of resolving some questionable plot points and inconsistencies of the prequel trilogy.
Hands down my favorite Star Wars movie to date is Rogue One. I think it's criminally underrated and I really loved it. Even over the originals, although it is obviously more meaningful having seen and grown up with the original trilogy.
I know all the new movies get hate just for being new and different, but I really appreciated rogue one. Even just looking from the perspective of how much effort they really seemed to put into the syncing up of every character into the story.
From the callsigns that get blown up leaving room for Luke to take his spot in Gold Squad, to the Vader scene it all felt great. Both familiar and fresh establishing a new feel to the non-trilogy movies. You can watch some great breakdowns of the screenplay differences too.
My biggest gripe were the "don't choke on your ambitions"
I didn't mind it. Anakin was always full of jokes before his "fall". When he became Darth Vader he was certainly far more serious but I didn't mind a little bit of his old self showing.
Also I thought most of Rogue One was a convoluted slog but I absolutely loved the battle at the end.
Hahaha I laughed at it in the theater but it was like a "Oh god that was lame." It was just a little too on the nose for me. Nothing really clever about it, but it's not like 1 line ruined the movie for me.
This 100% Rouge one is 1,000,000 times better then all the other new ones. (Excluding solo because after how bad 8 was I'm just not going to star wars movies unless they get decent reviews) it was stealer all around and the female lead didn't seem as in your face about being female (maybe that was less the movie and more the marketing). Also the characters were all very relatable and they didn't have the marval style humor that the other new ones are using.
Dude rogue one was awesome! That bittersweet ending was just epic
The other benefit of not having downvotes is that I can say that Star Wars is lame. On another site I would get downvoted to oblivion for that :)
👎
what have you done
I have released a new trend on Tildes and I feel bad
Ctrl-F "holiday special"...nothing.
I'm not sure how we can rank Star Warses without a mention of the best one of them all.
If you've never seen it before I would...recommend would be a strong word. I would encourage you to sit through the entire thing.
The full special is on YouTube. It should not be watched alone, or sober. My favorite way to watch it involves having an unofficial office Christmas party on an afternoon in December and playing it in a conference room. It's a bit like the Rocky Horror Picture Show in that it's more fun to watch if you've seen it before and there are a few virgins who are along for the first time.
The best way to watch it, in my opinion, is with Rifftrax.
Now that I think about it, I sort of agree with you. I think it's real bad, but it has a naive sort of "swing for the fences" badness where I don't hate it, as it comes across that everyone involved was really going for it, even if they shouldn't have been. I also enjoy it from a meta perspective, where the ways in which it sucks are often ways in which the early production material from the original trilogy sucked, so you really get to see the effect that other staff had in taking Lucas's weirdo vision and making A New Hope.
With the new movies, I think they're unquestionably better , but I find them totally unmemorable, an effect strengthened by knowledge that there's going to be a new one every year until the Sun dies. There's just no risk, and no greatness. I haven't seen Solo, but my entire reaction was basically "OK, cool" to VII, "OK" to Rogue One, and "fuckin' what" to VIII. With I-III you could discuss the badness for ages, like peeling an onion.
@Heichou I really love that you added a "controversial" tag =D
Sshhhh don't tell nobody
hahahah 😂
Man, Tildes has gone to the Dark Side ;-)
I can also say this: I like the prequel trilogy more than the classic one.
I'll go ever further: I don't like Star Wars at all.
What people don't remember is that ALL of the prequels were crazy popular when they released. We lived and breathed these movies when I was a kid (in my teens when these came out). Promotions were everywhere. General consensus among everyone I knew was that Phantom Menace was amazing and OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE STAR WARS IS BACK.
Finally, a reasonable discussion about Stat Wars. It's lighthearted tone also doesn't seem to have triggered yet another meta post on how tildes is dying, so I guess I could say that this is a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one!