While this video has a lot of entertaining complaining about the live action remake, I found the most interesting part of the video is the history that led us here. Worth watching, considering the...
While this video has a lot of entertaining complaining about the live action remake, I found the most interesting part of the video is the history that led us here. Worth watching, considering the marketing for Dumbo is ramping up and there are five others on the horizon for the next year and a half.
I did find that she articulated really well my feelings on Disney's "no, she's feminist now!" version of Belle--that is, it's not to disparage strong female role models or anything, but rather Disney's rather patronizing way of "fixing" Belle. That bit starts here.
I enjoyed the history/behind the scenes look at Disney she did, particularly regarding Eisner vs. Iger's approaches. And while I totally get why the issues she covered regarding feminism as...
I enjoyed the history/behind the scenes look at Disney she did, particularly regarding Eisner vs. Iger's approaches. And while I totally get why the issues she covered regarding feminism as portrayed in Beauty and the Beast are important and problematic, and I fully support her criticism, especially regarding the patronizing and insanely superficial way they included it...
However, as shallow as this might make me seem, my biggest gripe with all these remakes has been them stripping out all or most of the Broadway musical songs and at least the Beauty and the Beast remake actually kept all that in, so it gets a thumbs up from me despite all the flaws she pointed out. Unlike Jungle Book, which stripped all but the 3 most popular songs, and Cinderella as well as Pete's Dragon which had no singing in them whatsoever. Pete's dragon especially peeved me off since it is my favorite Disney Soundtrack of...all...time...for...good...reason! And if they strip them out of the forthcoming The Lion King, Aladdin and Mulan remakes too, I am going to be pretty unhappy. :(
It's so hard for me to talk about the live action BatB soundtrack because on the one hand, I actually like some of the live action versions more and the new songs I think are all very good... on...
It's so hard for me to talk about the live action BatB soundtrack because on the one hand, I actually like some of the live action versions more and the new songs I think are all very good... on the other, the soundtrack is the same style of overproduced the rest of the movie is. By which I mean, the autotune. Evermore is a beautiful song, crippled by the weird hollow computerized "Beast" voice they put over the singer (in comparison, the Josh Groban version ends up shining). And... I mean I don't have to say anything about Emma Watson's singing that hasn't been said.
In an ideal world, we'd get a great soundtrack and a great movie, but I worry that these things can end up being incompatible because of why the movies are made like they are. That is, if the movie isn't made for its own merits, then it's going to end up being the overproduced mess that BatB was. If it is made for its own merits, then whether or not there's music is going to come down to whether they think that will serve the movie... and Disney seems more interested in hiring big name directors who aren't exactly interested in movie musicals.
I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who feels this way. It seems like it's everywhere now. I picked up the soundtrack to The Greatest Showman a while back because I really loved the music,...
... on the other, the soundtrack is the same style of overproduced the rest of the movie is. By which I mean, the autotune.
I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who feels this way. It seems like it's everywhere now. I picked up the soundtrack to The Greatest Showman a while back because I really loved the music, but there is so much production in it that it kind of ruins it. One of the songs had the singer's pitch so heavily manipulated that the little boy singing sounded like a deep-voiced robotic Rihanna. Another one had the levels so messed up that Hugh Jackman's voice was louder than a screaming choir when he was supposed to be whispering.
In my personal unsubstantiated opinion, the reason why the movie musical remains dead to this day is not because there is no good musicals to adapt, but because Hollywood has no producers who are remotely competent when it comes to music.
While I don't hate autotone on its own merits--sometimes styles that can only be produced through a computer sound great--I don't think BatB (or The Greatest Showman) were trying to go for that...
While I don't hate autotone on its own merits--sometimes styles that can only be produced through a computer sound great--I don't think BatB (or The Greatest Showman) were trying to go for that style. They were, as @cfabbro says, trying to compensate for hiring famous actors, not good singers.
In my personal unsubstantiated opinion, the reason why the movie musical remains dead to this day is not because there is no good musicals to adapt, but because Hollywood has no producers who are remotely competent when it comes to music.
Actually, it's funny you say that because I debated on whether to link the BatB video or this video on the death of Hollywood musicals. You should watch it, I actually think it's more interesting than the BatB one (just less topical).
Honestly... this might sound a bit much, but I do think part of the reason movie musicals are having trouble establishing themselves is because more and more we have been culturally stamping certain genres and ideas and tropes as being feminine and girly while at the same time continuing to pressure men and women to reject feminine things. Think about all the scorn and derision heaped on the Mamma Mia sequel.
But then again, another part of that is women are showing a more discriminating taste when it comes to genres that appeal to them, and those same genres are almost always produced without a lot of feminine input... that is, Hollywood makes movies for women that don't exactly appeal to women, leading Hollywood to read it as "wow women must not like movies".
Sorry, that's a bit of a tangent. Anyway, yes, I do love movie musicals, and it is certainly disappointing that the few we get somehow manage to miss the mark musically. Even La La Land, which has some great songs, is led by two people who can't sing.
I'm not going to go off on you for going out on a tangent since I kind of did by bringing up The Greatest Showman to begin with.... I'm actually a big fan of Lindsay Ellis, and I thought of that...
I'm not going to go off on you for going out on a tangent since I kind of did by bringing up The Greatest Showman to begin with....
I'm actually a big fan of Lindsay Ellis, and I thought of that video when I made the comment on why the musical is still dead (even though there actually have been some major ones coming out the past few years, such as Les Mis).
I would like to try and refute what you said about masculinity limiting the popularity of musicals, but I honestly have nothing and I hate it.
I don't think any genre movies truly die. We still get the occasional western or noir movie after all, and the heyday of those films are well over. I think for me it sticks out more for musicals...
I don't think any genre movies truly die. We still get the occasional western or noir movie after all, and the heyday of those films are well over. I think for me it sticks out more for musicals because--well first because I like that genre a lot, but mostly because musicals are more flexible. You could do a superhero musical or a western musical or a historical drama musical, but that's where that pigeonholing comes in. Can't have people singing about their problems, that's for kids and also girls. Well I hate it and I want everyone to sing about their problems.
Sigh, I wish it didn't have to be an ideal world for that to be the case and you're probably right to worry about the root causes of why they do seem currently incompatible. I think the...
In an ideal world, we'd get a great soundtrack and a great movie, but I worry that these things can end up being incompatible because of why the movies are made like they are.
Sigh, I wish it didn't have to be an ideal world for that to be the case and you're probably right to worry about the root causes of why they do seem currently incompatible. I think the International market also plays a factor in that as well... it's reasonably cheap to dub movies in foreign languages, but converting songs is a whole 'nother beast entirely and usually much, much more expensive and fraught with risk... which big companies like Disney don't like to take.
By which I mean, the autotune ... and Disney seems more interested in hiring big name directors who aren't exactly interested in movie musicals.
And big name actors, regardless of if they can sing or not, which is why they are forced to rely on autotune so much to make them sound passable, e.g. the Les Mis movie, which while not Disney, was the worst offender I can think of there.
p.s. Don't get me wrong, BatB 2017 wasn't great by any means... but when it comes to musicals I will take what I can since they're my favorite movie genre and they're not even a dying breed, they're pretty much actually dead by this point. So even a kind of crappy, autotuned-to-hell remake is better than nothing. :(
Hm, I didn't think about the dubbing aspect. You're right, that's remarkably harder to adapt than spoken dialogue. I don't think it's too much of a concern, since Disney's animation branch is...
Hm, I didn't think about the dubbing aspect. You're right, that's remarkably harder to adapt than spoken dialogue. I don't think it's too much of a concern, since Disney's animation branch is still more than happy to produce musicals. But then, Disney attracts hordes of talent for people who specifically want to make musicals...
I shared this below, but you might want to watch the essayist of this post, Lindsay Ellis, talk about the death of the movie musical here.
Thanks, that was a great video too. I like her comparison to modern Superhero movies and the trend chasing that happened following Marry Poppins, My Fair Lady and The Sound of Music. I had also...
Thanks, that was a great video too. I like her comparison to modern Superhero movies and the trend chasing that happened following Marry Poppins, My Fair Lady and The Sound of Music. I had also never heard of road shows before but they sound like they would have been great. I almost feel that something similar is returning, in a way, with the modern dine-in and higher end theatre chains like Alamo Drafthouse. Now if only we could get the musicals to properly come back into fashion too. ;)
The blade runner ending was hilarious too... "all those moments will be lost in time... like turds in the wind." LOL
p.s. I really like that YouTube channel, she really knows her stuff. Thanks for making me aware of it.
While this video has a lot of entertaining complaining about the live action remake, I found the most interesting part of the video is the history that led us here. Worth watching, considering the marketing for Dumbo is ramping up and there are five others on the horizon for the next year and a half.
I did find that she articulated really well my feelings on Disney's "no, she's feminist now!" version of Belle--that is, it's not to disparage strong female role models or anything, but rather Disney's rather patronizing way of "fixing" Belle. That bit starts here.
I enjoyed the history/behind the scenes look at Disney she did, particularly regarding Eisner vs. Iger's approaches. And while I totally get why the issues she covered regarding feminism as portrayed in Beauty and the Beast are important and problematic, and I fully support her criticism, especially regarding the patronizing and insanely superficial way they included it...
However, as shallow as this might make me seem, my biggest gripe with all these remakes has been them stripping out all or most of the Broadway musical songs and at least the Beauty and the Beast remake actually kept all that in, so it gets a thumbs up from me despite all the flaws she pointed out. Unlike Jungle Book, which stripped all but the 3 most popular songs, and Cinderella as well as Pete's Dragon which had no singing in them whatsoever. Pete's dragon especially peeved me off since it is my favorite Disney Soundtrack of... all... time... for... good... reason! And if they strip them out of the forthcoming The Lion King, Aladdin and Mulan remakes too, I am going to be pretty unhappy. :(
It's so hard for me to talk about the live action BatB soundtrack because on the one hand, I actually like some of the live action versions more and the new songs I think are all very good... on the other, the soundtrack is the same style of overproduced the rest of the movie is. By which I mean, the autotune. Evermore is a beautiful song, crippled by the weird hollow computerized "Beast" voice they put over the singer (in comparison, the Josh Groban version ends up shining). And... I mean I don't have to say anything about Emma Watson's singing that hasn't been said.
In an ideal world, we'd get a great soundtrack and a great movie, but I worry that these things can end up being incompatible because of why the movies are made like they are. That is, if the movie isn't made for its own merits, then it's going to end up being the overproduced mess that BatB was. If it is made for its own merits, then whether or not there's music is going to come down to whether they think that will serve the movie... and Disney seems more interested in hiring big name directors who aren't exactly interested in movie musicals.
I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who feels this way. It seems like it's everywhere now. I picked up the soundtrack to The Greatest Showman a while back because I really loved the music, but there is so much production in it that it kind of ruins it. One of the songs had the singer's pitch so heavily manipulated that the little boy singing sounded like a deep-voiced robotic Rihanna. Another one had the levels so messed up that Hugh Jackman's voice was louder than a screaming choir when he was supposed to be whispering.
In my personal unsubstantiated opinion, the reason why the movie musical remains dead to this day is not because there is no good musicals to adapt, but because Hollywood has no producers who are remotely competent when it comes to music.
While I don't hate autotone on its own merits--sometimes styles that can only be produced through a computer sound great--I don't think BatB (or The Greatest Showman) were trying to go for that style. They were, as @cfabbro says, trying to compensate for hiring famous actors, not good singers.
Actually, it's funny you say that because I debated on whether to link the BatB video or this video on the death of Hollywood musicals. You should watch it, I actually think it's more interesting than the BatB one (just less topical).
Honestly... this might sound a bit much, but I do think part of the reason movie musicals are having trouble establishing themselves is because more and more we have been culturally stamping certain genres and ideas and tropes as being feminine and girly while at the same time continuing to pressure men and women to reject feminine things. Think about all the scorn and derision heaped on the Mamma Mia sequel.
But then again, another part of that is women are showing a more discriminating taste when it comes to genres that appeal to them, and those same genres are almost always produced without a lot of feminine input... that is, Hollywood makes movies for women that don't exactly appeal to women, leading Hollywood to read it as "wow women must not like movies".
Sorry, that's a bit of a tangent. Anyway, yes, I do love movie musicals, and it is certainly disappointing that the few we get somehow manage to miss the mark musically. Even La La Land, which has some great songs, is led by two people who can't sing.
I'm not going to go off on you for going out on a tangent since I kind of did by bringing up The Greatest Showman to begin with....
I'm actually a big fan of Lindsay Ellis, and I thought of that video when I made the comment on why the musical is still dead (even though there actually have been some major ones coming out the past few years, such as Les Mis).
I would like to try and refute what you said about masculinity limiting the popularity of musicals, but I honestly have nothing and I hate it.
I don't think any genre movies truly die. We still get the occasional western or noir movie after all, and the heyday of those films are well over. I think for me it sticks out more for musicals because--well first because I like that genre a lot, but mostly because musicals are more flexible. You could do a superhero musical or a western musical or a historical drama musical, but that's where that pigeonholing comes in. Can't have people singing about their problems, that's for kids and also girls. Well I hate it and I want everyone to sing about their problems.
Sigh, I wish it didn't have to be an ideal world for that to be the case and you're probably right to worry about the root causes of why they do seem currently incompatible. I think the International market also plays a factor in that as well... it's reasonably cheap to dub movies in foreign languages, but converting songs is a whole 'nother beast entirely and usually much, much more expensive and fraught with risk... which big companies like Disney don't like to take.
And big name actors, regardless of if they can sing or not, which is why they are forced to rely on autotune so much to make them sound passable, e.g. the Les Mis movie, which while not Disney, was the worst offender I can think of there.
p.s. Don't get me wrong, BatB 2017 wasn't great by any means... but when it comes to musicals I will take what I can since they're my favorite movie genre and they're not even a dying breed, they're pretty much actually dead by this point. So even a kind of crappy, autotuned-to-hell remake is better than nothing. :(
Hm, I didn't think about the dubbing aspect. You're right, that's remarkably harder to adapt than spoken dialogue. I don't think it's too much of a concern, since Disney's animation branch is still more than happy to produce musicals. But then, Disney attracts hordes of talent for people who specifically want to make musicals...
I shared this below, but you might want to watch the essayist of this post, Lindsay Ellis, talk about the death of the movie musical here.
Thanks, that was a great video too. I like her comparison to modern Superhero movies and the trend chasing that happened following Marry Poppins, My Fair Lady and The Sound of Music. I had also never heard of road shows before but they sound like they would have been great. I almost feel that something similar is returning, in a way, with the modern dine-in and higher end theatre chains like Alamo Drafthouse. Now if only we could get the musicals to properly come back into fashion too. ;)
The blade runner ending was hilarious too... "all those moments will be lost in time... like turds in the wind." LOL
p.s. I really like that YouTube channel, she really knows her stuff. Thanks for making me aware of it.