Once again, no one shot the man according to the headline he just got shot. "Police shoot and kill man who was the gunman in pizzagate conspiracy incident" could have worked. They could even...
Exemplary
Once again, no one shot the man according to the headline he just got shot. "Police shoot and kill man who was the gunman in pizzagate conspiracy incident" could have worked. They could even mention that he pulled a gun and then was shot and killed... by the police.
The police never kill anyone in headlines. But in this case it also makes it sound like a weird coincidence, not a case where the guy was allegedly trying to evade a warrant.
ABC has a better headline: 'Pizzagate' gunman killed by police during traffic stop in North Carolina Though that headline still sounds like they just offed him after pulling him over.
A man who opened fire on a pizza restaurant believing a child sex ring was operating there has been shot and killed nine years later.
...
the front seat passenger pulled a handgun from his jacket and pointed it in the direction of the officer. That officer and a second officer who was standing at the rear passenger side of the Yukon gave commands for the passenger to drop the gun
...
‘After the passenger failed to comply with their repeated requests, both officers fired their duty weapon at the passenger, striking him.’
So... he just pointed a gun at them and stood there, instead of attempting to de-escalate the situation they just killed him for not listening to them? I hope there's something missing here, like...
After the passenger failed to comply with their repeated requests, both officers fired their duty weapon at the passenger, striking him.
So... he just pointed a gun at them and stood there, instead of attempting to de-escalate the situation they just killed him for not listening to them? I hope there's something missing here, like he was waving the gun around or seemed like he would do more than point the gun. The guy's a nutjob, but he didn't actually hurt anyone at the pizza joint (physically anyway).
Look I'm absolutely on board with LOTS of police reform, but if someone points a gun at you, you assume they intend to kill you. You can't "wait until they shoot" or something because then yes,...
Look I'm absolutely on board with LOTS of police reform, but if someone points a gun at you, you assume they intend to kill you. You can't "wait until they shoot" or something because then yes, you are now dead. If I charge you with a knife but stop at the last moment, you're going to fire on me before you find out that I was just going to stand in front of you. Guns are lethal enough that the escalation is instant when you point it at someone.
This is why people are taught that you never, ever, point a gun at someone that you do not intend to kill.
Maybe the story is bullshit, maybe they escalated before that, maybe a million other dumb things that I can absolutely believe happened, but if it's actually as mentioned, then yeah he's lucky they supposedly asked him to comply after he pointed a gun at them.
One doesn’t point a gun at someone without intending to shoot them. The very first rule of gun safety is to never point them at people, even if it’s not loaded.
One doesn’t point a gun at someone without intending to shoot them. The very first rule of gun safety is to never point them at people, even if it’s not loaded.
For those who were also curious, the arrest warrant was for "felony probation violation" https://globalnews.ca/news/10952547/pizzagate-gunman-edgar-welch-killed-police-traffic-stop/
For those who were also curious, the arrest warrant was for "felony probation violation"
Edgar Maddison Welch was a passenger in a vehicle stopped by officers in Kannapolis on Saturday night, according to a Kannapolis Police Department news release. One of the officers recognized the car as the vehicle of someone he had arrested and who had an outstanding warrant for a felony probation violation — Welch, police said.
I can’t say I like that this happened - police killings have become an especially terrifying thing given the current political climate - but I can’t deny the poetry of it.
I can’t say I like that this happened - police killings have become an especially terrifying thing given the current political climate - but I can’t deny the poetry of it.
It bothers me that a routine traffic stop like this can escalate so brutally. I don’t want to defend the cops too much, but it must wear on them that every interaction with the public could be deadly.
It bothers me that a routine traffic stop like this can escalate so brutally. I don’t want to defend the cops too much, but it must wear on them that every interaction with the public could be deadly.
To be fair, it wasn’t the police who first escalated the situation in this case. They did when they fired their guns, but I don’t think it’s entirely reasonable to expect them to be calm when...
To be fair, it wasn’t the police who first escalated the situation in this case. They did when they fired their guns, but I don’t think it’s entirely reasonable to expect them to be calm when there’s someone pointing their gun at you and refusing to put it down. Especially when they know the person has a criminal history with guns.
It’s another problem entirely that the dude had a gun to begin with, but let’s not go there for now. That’s another can of worms.
Society is reaching some sort of nexus point I'm afraid we won't be able to turn back from. It's wearing on the public that an interaction with a cop could be deadly as well. Most of us don't have...
Society is reaching some sort of nexus point I'm afraid we won't be able to turn back from. It's wearing on the public that an interaction with a cop could be deadly as well. Most of us don't have guns, yet every police force in America has justified that they must act like we all do. I have no idea how to reach for my wallet in my back pocket if I ever get pulled over without them thinking I'm pulling a gun. Conversely, how do they know I'm not pulling a gun? It's a terrifying prospect we've reached where neither side trusts the other.
I saw a crowd-work comedy bit once that involved a cop, and he mentioned how widespread steroid useage is on his and other police forces. I find it absolutely terrifying to think that even a slight majority of police forces out there are full of roid-raging juiceheads walking around with guns thinking we're all the enemy. I'm guilty of it too, I'm not a fan of police and view them as the enemy when I'm out in the world and not at home.
Let's remember that at large, it's more dangerous to be in logging, construction, agriculture, or a number of other professions than it is to be a cop. These people actually make society move, instead of simply being tools to control the masses for the state. Yet we perceive the risk a cop takes as the more valiant and dangerous. I wonder if it's because we don't ever hear news of a logger being killed by a falling tree or a lineman getting electrocuted. I suppose it doesn't make a good nationwide headline that spurs any sort of moral righteousness, thus we never hear those tragic stories.
Sorry I didn't mean to go off there, but I'm in too deep now to delete the comment. All that said, think the cops were well within their right to respond with force in this particular situation if we want to go by the details in the article.
I was with you until this. What? You keep your hands visible. When they ask for your ID, you say it’s in your pocket, and they tell you to get it out. It isn’t that hard.
I have no idea how to reach for my wallet in my back pocket if I ever get pulled over without them thinking I'm pulling a gun.
I was with you until this. What? You keep your hands visible. When they ask for your ID, you say it’s in your pocket, and they tell you to get it out. It isn’t that hard.
I take my wallet out of my pocket all the time. I just reach for it. It’s instinctive. The fact that this could get me killed, and that it might be blamed on me for not following your steps is...
I take my wallet out of my pocket all the time. I just reach for it. It’s instinctive. The fact that this could get me killed, and that it might be blamed on me for not following your steps is troubling.
Granted, I’m a respectable looking, well-dressed non-minority so it would probably go alright for me. Even so…
I love that you picked out the hypothetical scenario that normally only exists in my anxious head to pick apart, rather than me calling cops juiceheads or tools of the state that don't propel...
I love that you picked out the hypothetical scenario that normally only exists in my anxious head to pick apart, rather than me calling cops juiceheads or tools of the state that don't propel society forward in any way.
I'm sure there's more than one body cam video of a cop shooting someone after doing exactly as you described. There's one I can think of, and it's a shame I forget the victims name because I've seen so many similar examples of excessive force in the last decade.
You're right though, it's not hard. I've been in a traffic stop and got my wallet out without being shot. And it went even more casually than you described.
But in the moment, it's nigh impossible for the thought not to cross your mind. And for the cop too, he's likely got his hand on his holster already. He's got the thought in his mind about the potential danger he faces, catches a glimpse of your black metal ridge wallet when he was expecting a brown leather one and fear over reason might win.
Hypothetical example, but is it really entirely out of the realm of possibility as the general public and cops both escalate their fear of each other?
Philandro Castile was told to get his wallet, warned the police that he also had a firearm on him so they wouldn't see it, get jumpy and shoot him, and the police got jumpy and shot him without...
What? You keep your hands visible. When they ask for your ID, you say it’s in your pocket, and they tell you to get it out. It isn’t that hard.
Philandro Castile was told to get his wallet, warned the police that he also had a firearm on him so they wouldn't see it, get jumpy and shoot him, and the police got jumpy and shot him without ever seeing it.
PSA: I'm not watching again as I saw it when it came out but just like, this is explicitly a man being murdered with his girlfriend and 4 year old in the car. Don't feel the need to watch if that...
PSA: I'm not watching again as I saw it when it came out but just like, this is explicitly a man being murdered with his girlfriend and 4 year old in the car.
Don't feel the need to watch if that is going to fuck you up today. It's not going to make you feel better, and you don't need to harm yourself in the name of witnessing everything.
I just have the ID, Insurance and Registration ready when they get there since it takes a bit for them to walk up to you. When they're there, tell them your intentions before you reach for...
I just have the ID, Insurance and Registration ready when they get there since it takes a bit for them to walk up to you. When they're there, tell them your intentions before you reach for anything. Also, do as they say, you never know if you got one that's triggered by not listening to them. How careful you are is probably more determined by how intimidating you are. Women probably have nothing to fear while a big black guy would do best by not moving an inch.
Though the truth is most police are rather chill. You can usually tell when they walk up that they're just trying to get the stop over with (bored) or are wary of you for some reason.
I had one that freaked me out a bit though, his partner went to the other side of my car and when I looked over nearly shat myself when I saw him there, never had one do that before and I think I instinctively hate being surround. I kind of had my lights out so they probably thought I was up to no good, when really I just forgot to turn them back on since I turned them off a couple blocks away in a drive through to keep from blinding the short car in front of me. :/
Please do not actually do this. If you consider reaching for things during an interaction dangerous the most dangerous part is when they can just barely see you. That will set them on edge about...
Please do not actually do this. If you consider reaching for things during an interaction dangerous the most dangerous part is when they can just barely see you. That will set them on edge about what they'll find when they get to your window far more than you reaching around when they ask for something specific.
I do not think this is a good thing, but just how it is. Police are trained to treat every interaction as potentially hostile toward them and seeing a shadow do who knows what can trigger the thoughts, "What'd they grab? What are they hiding? Could it be a weapon?"
Really? :( Maybe that's why that guy came around to the other side, I had moved quite a bit. I'll have to remember that, maybe try to keep things easier to get to. Thanks. I wonder if there's any...
Really? :( Maybe that's why that guy came around to the other side, I had moved quite a bit. I'll have to remember that, maybe try to keep things easier to get to. Thanks.
I wonder if there's any attempt to create a system where you don't need to reach for anything?
It seems like he was the passenger which means unless the car was registered to him the driver was pulled over for some other reason and then the passenger was identified as having the warrant. If...
It seems like he was the passenger which means unless the car was registered to him the driver was pulled over for some other reason and then the passenger was identified as having the warrant. If my understanding is right then it started as a "routine traffic stop" then turned into an attempted arrest and shooting.
Obviously the man (allegedly) escalated it. I don't like that this happens regardless of who escalates, personally, it sucks for everyone involved.
Once again, no one shot the man according to the headline he just got shot. "Police shoot and kill man who was the gunman in pizzagate conspiracy incident" could have worked. They could even mention that he pulled a gun and then was shot and killed... by the police.
The police never kill anyone in headlines. But in this case it also makes it sound like a weird coincidence, not a case where the guy was allegedly trying to evade a warrant.
ABC has a better headline: 'Pizzagate' gunman killed by police during traffic stop in North Carolina
Though that headline still sounds like they just offed him after pulling him over.
Yeah look I'll take the win of an active verb! Plus arguably he only allegedly instigated it so that makes some sense.
...
...
So... he just pointed a gun at them and stood there, instead of attempting to de-escalate the situation they just killed him for not listening to them? I hope there's something missing here, like he was waving the gun around or seemed like he would do more than point the gun. The guy's a nutjob, but he didn't actually hurt anyone at the pizza joint (physically anyway).
Look I'm absolutely on board with LOTS of police reform, but if someone points a gun at you, you assume they intend to kill you. You can't "wait until they shoot" or something because then yes, you are now dead. If I charge you with a knife but stop at the last moment, you're going to fire on me before you find out that I was just going to stand in front of you. Guns are lethal enough that the escalation is instant when you point it at someone.
This is why people are taught that you never, ever, point a gun at someone that you do not intend to kill.
Maybe the story is bullshit, maybe they escalated before that, maybe a million other dumb things that I can absolutely believe happened, but if it's actually as mentioned, then yeah he's lucky they supposedly asked him to comply after he pointed a gun at them.
More than point a gun? Pointing a gun is a pretty serious threat.
One doesn’t point a gun at someone without intending to shoot them. The very first rule of gun safety is to never point them at people, even if it’s not loaded.
For those who were also curious, the arrest warrant was for "felony probation violation"
https://globalnews.ca/news/10952547/pizzagate-gunman-edgar-welch-killed-police-traffic-stop/
I can’t say I like that this happened - police killings have become an especially terrifying thing given the current political climate - but I can’t deny the poetry of it.
He drew a gun on the police at a traffic stop.
It bothers me that a routine traffic stop like this can escalate so brutally. I don’t want to defend the cops too much, but it must wear on them that every interaction with the public could be deadly.
To be fair, it wasn’t the police who first escalated the situation in this case. They did when they fired their guns, but I don’t think it’s entirely reasonable to expect them to be calm when there’s someone pointing their gun at you and refusing to put it down. Especially when they know the person has a criminal history with guns.
It’s another problem entirely that the dude had a gun to begin with, but let’s not go there for now. That’s another can of worms.
Society is reaching some sort of nexus point I'm afraid we won't be able to turn back from. It's wearing on the public that an interaction with a cop could be deadly as well. Most of us don't have guns, yet every police force in America has justified that they must act like we all do. I have no idea how to reach for my wallet in my back pocket if I ever get pulled over without them thinking I'm pulling a gun. Conversely, how do they know I'm not pulling a gun? It's a terrifying prospect we've reached where neither side trusts the other.
I saw a crowd-work comedy bit once that involved a cop, and he mentioned how widespread steroid useage is on his and other police forces. I find it absolutely terrifying to think that even a slight majority of police forces out there are full of roid-raging juiceheads walking around with guns thinking we're all the enemy. I'm guilty of it too, I'm not a fan of police and view them as the enemy when I'm out in the world and not at home.
Let's remember that at large, it's more dangerous to be in logging, construction, agriculture, or a number of other professions than it is to be a cop. These people actually make society move, instead of simply being tools to control the masses for the state. Yet we perceive the risk a cop takes as the more valiant and dangerous. I wonder if it's because we don't ever hear news of a logger being killed by a falling tree or a lineman getting electrocuted. I suppose it doesn't make a good nationwide headline that spurs any sort of moral righteousness, thus we never hear those tragic stories.
Sorry I didn't mean to go off there, but I'm in too deep now to delete the comment. All that said, think the cops were well within their right to respond with force in this particular situation if we want to go by the details in the article.
I was with you until this. What? You keep your hands visible. When they ask for your ID, you say it’s in your pocket, and they tell you to get it out. It isn’t that hard.
I take my wallet out of my pocket all the time. I just reach for it. It’s instinctive. The fact that this could get me killed, and that it might be blamed on me for not following your steps is troubling.
Granted, I’m a respectable looking, well-dressed non-minority so it would probably go alright for me. Even so…
I love that you picked out the hypothetical scenario that normally only exists in my anxious head to pick apart, rather than me calling cops juiceheads or tools of the state that don't propel society forward in any way.
I'm sure there's more than one body cam video of a cop shooting someone after doing exactly as you described. There's one I can think of, and it's a shame I forget the victims name because I've seen so many similar examples of excessive force in the last decade.
You're right though, it's not hard. I've been in a traffic stop and got my wallet out without being shot. And it went even more casually than you described.
But in the moment, it's nigh impossible for the thought not to cross your mind. And for the cop too, he's likely got his hand on his holster already. He's got the thought in his mind about the potential danger he faces, catches a glimpse of your black metal ridge wallet when he was expecting a brown leather one and fear over reason might win.
Hypothetical example, but is it really entirely out of the realm of possibility as the general public and cops both escalate their fear of each other?
edit: wording
Philandro Castile was told to get his wallet, warned the police that he also had a firearm on him so they wouldn't see it, get jumpy and shoot him, and the police got jumpy and shot him without ever seeing it.
I'm not American but I definitely wouldn't think of all this if I got pulled over. I'd just reach on back and die.
Here’s the dashcam footage of Philando Castile being murdered by Minneapolis PD.
https://youtu.be/rfprJGiPViY
This exact situation plays out here.
PSA: I'm not watching again as I saw it when it came out but just like, this is explicitly a man being murdered with his girlfriend and 4 year old in the car.
Don't feel the need to watch if that is going to fuck you up today. It's not going to make you feel better, and you don't need to harm yourself in the name of witnessing everything.
I just have the ID, Insurance and Registration ready when they get there since it takes a bit for them to walk up to you. When they're there, tell them your intentions before you reach for anything. Also, do as they say, you never know if you got one that's triggered by not listening to them. How careful you are is probably more determined by how intimidating you are. Women probably have nothing to fear while a big black guy would do best by not moving an inch.
Though the truth is most police are rather chill. You can usually tell when they walk up that they're just trying to get the stop over with (bored) or are wary of you for some reason.
I had one that freaked me out a bit though, his partner went to the other side of my car and when I looked over nearly shat myself when I saw him there, never had one do that before and I think I instinctively hate being surround. I kind of had my lights out so they probably thought I was up to no good, when really I just forgot to turn them back on since I turned them off a couple blocks away in a drive through to keep from blinding the short car in front of me. :/
Please do not actually do this. If you consider reaching for things during an interaction dangerous the most dangerous part is when they can just barely see you. That will set them on edge about what they'll find when they get to your window far more than you reaching around when they ask for something specific.
I do not think this is a good thing, but just how it is. Police are trained to treat every interaction as potentially hostile toward them and seeing a shadow do who knows what can trigger the thoughts, "What'd they grab? What are they hiding? Could it be a weapon?"
Really? :( Maybe that's why that guy came around to the other side, I had moved quite a bit. I'll have to remember that, maybe try to keep things easier to get to. Thanks.
I wonder if there's any attempt to create a system where you don't need to reach for anything?
Defend people who deserve defending, which 100% includes cops (or anybody else) who have guns pulled on them, and act in defense of themselves.
According to the article it was not a routine traffic stop. There was a warrant for his arrest.
It seems like he was the passenger which means unless the car was registered to him the driver was pulled over for some other reason and then the passenger was identified as having the warrant. If my understanding is right then it started as a "routine traffic stop" then turned into an attempted arrest and shooting.
Obviously the man (allegedly) escalated it. I don't like that this happens regardless of who escalates, personally, it sucks for everyone involved.