22 votes

US children joked about school shootings. Then the sheriff sent them to jail.

23 comments

  1. chocobean
    Link
    Mom. Mom. What are you doing. Police show up at 4am, you tell them to come back with a warrant in the morning and you call a lawyer, you don't wake up your kid and help the cops ask questions that...

    “Did you write a list down?” asked his mom, Jessica.

    “I didn’t, no,” he said, before acknowledging that wasn’t true. “I did, yes.” [...]

    Twelve minutes later, one of the detectives told Armando that they would have to arrest him.

    Mom. Mom. What are you doing. Police show up at 4am, you tell them to come back with a warrant in the morning and you call a lawyer, you don't wake up your kid and help the cops ask questions that get him arrested. The girl that threatened to kill your son was let go, but you kid got branded for life: that's cops and the "justice system" -- they're not here for fairness and restoration, they're here to make examples and keep the rest in line.

    “There is such a frustration — people are frustrated about not being able to just stop these once and for all,” said Kenneth Trump, the school security expert. “So it becomes, ‘We’re going to arrest everybody, whether they’re 18 or they’re 9.’”

    They can't punch up, so they're going to punch down. They're afraid of dying on the job so they're gonna take that fear and anger out on you, dear ex-citizen-now-perp.

    Though Armando has always denied threatening to shoot up a school, he confirmed to detectives that he’d written up a “hit list” as a joke. Now, four months later, Armando says he thinks the list was the other boy’s idea.

    He would never have been in if the mom knew enough to refuse to speak with detectives that night.

    “If you ever do a threat like this, or anything like this,” she recalled telling them, “I will let Sheriff Chitwood come over here. I will let him do it to you, too. You understand me?”

    People really don't know, do they, that cops aren't your co-parent, and they're not your friends.

    38 votes
  2. [6]
    Dr_Amazing
    Link
    This is glossed over pretty quickly in the article, but it's pretty nuts that: A: This is just a thing they're doing now B: You can be charged with issuing threats during a private conversation...

    “Me and my cousin were texting by ourselves,” she said.
    “When you use words like, ‘Ima shoot up the school,’ the FBI picks up on that,” he replied as she was led down the hallway.

    This is glossed over pretty quickly in the article, but it's pretty nuts that:

    A: This is just a thing they're doing now

    B: You can be charged with issuing threats during a private conversation where you never contact the victim or anyone not in on the joke.

    23 votes
    1. [5]
      chocobean
      Link Parent
      I re-read that part and hope they meant that they were texting each other via publicly viewable methods, not a wiretapped private snap

      I re-read that part and hope they meant that they were texting each other via publicly viewable methods, not a wiretapped private snap

      5 votes
      1. [3]
        papasquat
        Link Parent
        SMS (what most people mean when they say texting) shouldn't be publicly viewable. Yes, it's plaintext, but we shouldn't need to have all communication encrypted to feel safe that the government...

        SMS (what most people mean when they say texting) shouldn't be publicly viewable. Yes, it's plaintext, but we shouldn't need to have all communication encrypted to feel safe that the government isn't monitoring the communication of every single private citizens at all times. The premise is just absolutely absurd, but that's the world we live in I guess.

        7 votes
        1. [2]
          chocobean
          Link Parent
          I'm in complete agreement with you that plaintext SMS should still be private and not considered publicly viewable, and hence not easily readable by FBI/law enforcement without a warrant. My very...

          I'm in complete agreement with you that plaintext SMS should still be private and not considered publicly viewable, and hence not easily readable by FBI/law enforcement without a warrant. My very thin hope is that when kids say text they don't mean just SMS but categorically, for all kinds of digital communication. Sort of like how calling on someone used to mean visiting their house in person and then usually about telephone calls.

          It's a very thin hope. The far more likely scenario is that law enforcement is monitoring the private communications of citizens via plaintext over non public channels .....

          1 vote
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            Depending on age, a number of them mean Snapchat. Which will report people who make threats sometimes, because I've seen it happen. But idk their criteria.

            Depending on age, a number of them mean Snapchat. Which will report people who make threats sometimes, because I've seen it happen. But idk their criteria.

            3 votes
      2. Dr_Amazing
        Link Parent
        It says a little later it was a Snapchat direct message, but it looksnlike maybe it was posted in 2 places.

        The FBI, which has spent millions to monitor social media for potential danger, had detected a threat against Taylor, made minutes earlier by someone on campus.
        Newman radioed the principal, and the school was placed on a hold. The cellphone used to make the threat was traced to an address where four of Taylor’s students lived.

        It says a little later it was a Snapchat direct message, but it looksnlike maybe it was posted in 2 places.

        “Ima shoot up the school,” his cousin, the girl, had joked on Snapchat, sending him an identical note in a direct message.

        5 votes
  3. kfwyre
    (edited )
    Link
    I wish I had the time (and energy) to give the full response I want to for this article, but in the absence of those, I want to at least throw out what I consider to be some key considerations...

    I wish I had the time (and energy) to give the full response I want to for this article, but in the absence of those, I want to at least throw out what I consider to be some key considerations into the conversation:

    Kids have always used dark humor and made edgy, inappropriate comments. Kids today, however, live in a world where they are hooked into broadcast media all the time, which is very different from when many of us were young.

    Additionally, even nominally private communications between kids are more open than you’d think. It’s not uncommon for kids to screenshot texts from people and share them with others, or even take pics of snaps from someone else’s phone so those can be shared. A message can go from private (between two people) to uncomfortably public (say, thrown into a 50 person group chat) in seconds.

    Most of the time this happens it’s simply gossip-level stuff, but current kids have also been primed by social media to air anything that’s provocative or extreme or worrying — all in the interest of engagement. Something like a threat, even made as a joke, is highly provocative and thus is likely to “play well” (i.e get a lot of attention) if it’s shared elsewhere.

    Thus, even an empty threat made as a private joke in a small chat has a very high likelihood of “escaping containment.” Attention-seeking behaviors and context collapse are already bad enough problems for adults, but kids have far less inhibition and awareness of these issues by nature of their age and development (they’ve literally never known any different). Also, some people seeing it might not realize it’s a joke and escalate it for legitimate reasons.

    The cultural landscape has also drastically shifted. A school shooting threat before the Columbine shooting likely sounded so outlandish as to be absurd. Even after the Columbine shooting, it was likely to be seen as processing or riffing on a one-off tragedy. Worse, of course, but not necessarily credible or likely.

    Kids today, however, are making these “jokes” backed by over two full decades of continued school shootings. In the risk assessment for any given threat today, the likelihood of any of them being real is FAR higher than it used to be given just how many school shootings there have now been.

    I don’t agree with the sheriff’s actions here, and the public shaming angle is particularly egregious. I do, however, think that his actions are symptomatic of the fact that the buck has been passed on accountability for the issue of school shootings, such that he feels forced to act.

    Where are the changes to our gun laws? The prioritization of mental health issues? Where is ANY sort of action from the social media companies that are being used to broadcast these threats in the first place?

    An 11-year-old shouldn’t be arrested for making an idle threat, but that 11-year-old also shouldn’t be living in a world where that threat could be even considered credible in the first place.

    Nor should that 11-year-old be on platforms that can broadcast the threat (whether directly or secondhand) to his community instantaneously.

    Finally, jokes sometimes are just jokes. But also, and this is especially common with kids, bad behavior becomes a “joke” after the fact, once it becomes clear that the kid is facing actual consequences for their behavior. “It was just a joke!” is a VERY common attempt at accountability dodging. It’s also a way for a student to reframe themselves from being the villain (someone who said something legitimately awful) into being a victim (“I didn’t even do anything!”).

    12 votes
  4. [3]
    vord
    Link
    Well thank god they didn't have this in 2001 or I'd probably still be locked up. The authorities do not appreciate dark humor.

    Well thank god they didn't have this in 2001 or I'd probably still be locked up.

    The authorities do not appreciate dark humor.

    11 votes
    1. DefinitelyNotAFae
      Link Parent
      As someone whose boyfriend wore a trenchcoat before Columbine it was absolutely something that started happening after that shooting. Experiences will vary, there weren't the full drills and such...

      As someone whose boyfriend wore a trenchcoat before Columbine it was absolutely something that started happening after that shooting. Experiences will vary, there weren't the full drills and such at my school before I graduated but yeah, they started taking a lot of the Columbine myths as well as actual risk factors , seriously.

      12 votes
    2. chocobean
      Link Parent
      I am very fortunate to have an extremely reasonable kid. We talk about never making jokes at the airport esp though security: nothing about bombs, no complains about TSA security theatre, nothing...

      I am very fortunate to have an extremely reasonable kid.

      We talk about never making jokes at the airport esp though security: nothing about bombs, no complains about TSA security theatre, nothing about how the passport photo looks nothing like you, or how I'm not really a parent, nothing about how the other parent doesn't know about us travelling etc etc etc. All i had to explain was that they're on the look out for (1) terrorism threats and (2) human trafficking and (3) drugs / smuggling: jokes along those lines are right out.

      Myself as a kid with poor impulse control would have found the temptation too much to bear.

      5 votes
  5. [10]
    EgoEimi
    Link
    Hmm, I think there should be serious consequences for children who joke about shooting a school. It's really extremely not amusing? From my time living in different countries and cultures, I've...

    Hmm, I think there should be serious consequences for children who joke about shooting a school. It's really extremely not amusing?

    From my time living in different countries and cultures, I've found American culture to be uniquely... unserious. We teach children that their words, thoughts, and actions are whatevs. Everything is a joke lol: Trump's J6 is just a prank, bro.

    A bit of a leap but...
    Maybe that's why we have to rely on immigration to do so much difficult intellectual or manual labor that native-born Americans won't or can't do: our top STEM programs and farm fields are filled with immigrants. And maybe that's how Trump won the popular vote.

    10 votes
    1. chocobean
      Link Parent
      There's knock at 4am, having grown men encircle and speak down at you, being handcuffed and perp walked to the back of a wagon, taken "downtown" and sleep on the floor overnight serious. Then...

      There's knock at 4am, having grown men encircle and speak down at you, being handcuffed and perp walked to the back of a wagon, taken "downtown" and sleep on the floor overnight serious.

      Then there's plaster your name and face on official documents forever, use you as a public example, send you to jail where violence happens, and where you could face months in prison serious.

      There should be serious consequences, but for an 11 year old, the first night they visited was already enough to scare him straight. All that other stuff didn't prevent more jokes either.

      19 votes
    2. [2]
      sparksbet
      Link Parent
      I think some types of dark humor become more amusing when you're coping with the dark shit it's about. When you've had to do lockdown drills since Kindergarten because school shootings are so...

      I think some types of dark humor become more amusing when you're coping with the dark shit it's about. When you've had to do lockdown drills since Kindergarten because school shootings are so common, is it any surprise you start making jokes about them?

      Obviously it's difficult to tell how serious something is from the outside, and anything that looks like a threat or planning should be investigated to some degree. But I don't think there are many things that should result in such young children being sent to jail, especially without having actually harmed anyone.

      9 votes
      1. chocobean
        Link Parent
        How else are children supposed to cope with a world where they do lockdown drills, spend hundreds of millions, have school police, have alarm lights and locking doors, but won't reform gun laws?...

        How else are children supposed to cope with a world where they do lockdown drills, spend hundreds of millions, have school police, have alarm lights and locking doors, but won't reform gun laws? Gallows humour will continue because they live in an insane and absurdd world where only laughter make any sense

        7 votes
    3. [5]
      Macha
      Link Parent
      Would have arrested 25% of my school in the early 00s, and I don't live in America. Maybe it's the fact that I live in a country where children can't get access to guns that lets people joke about...

      Would have arrested 25% of my school in the early 00s, and I don't live in America. Maybe it's the fact that I live in a country where children can't get access to guns that lets people joke about that.

      7 votes
      1. [4]
        DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        In a lot of ways it's like joking about suicide. From the outside, without more conversation you don't know if someone means it or not. Even joking is often used as testing the waters and seeing...

        In a lot of ways it's like joking about suicide. From the outside, without more conversation you don't know if someone means it or not. Even joking is often used as testing the waters and seeing if people care.

        For homicide, the comments can reflect an actual plan or be complete bullshit.

        But for either you're faced with the option of doing something or not. And if you're wrong in the direction of "not acting" and something happening, can you live with yourself and/or are you liable?

        I don't agree with arresting an 11 year old without some sort of threat assessment by actual trained professionals, not regular cops, but I understand why schools and even police departments feel compelled to in our current system. And with parents who don't always take the threats seriously. If we don't have the support to sort out mental health, and we don't know who has access to a gun to follow through on the "joke" you take extreme action to ensure the safety of the many.

        10 votes
        1. [3]
          Macha
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I live in the EU. There have been, what, 10 school shootings in a decade? In my particular country, there have been none, ever. In comparison, there have been millions of suicides in the EU,...

          I live in the EU. There have been, what, 10 school shootings in a decade? In my particular country, there have been none, ever. In comparison, there have been millions of suicides in the EU, especially among the 16-25 age group. By 25, the percentage of people who were in my high school class that had committed suicide had reached double digits. People treat events with a 15% likelihood differently than a 0.00002%.

          Is it tasteless, sure. Should it be actionable? I don't think so. The problem is the guns, not the tasteless jokes

          2 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            As I said, this was in reference to the system folks are in - in the US, in these school systems, that's the paradigm that the people making these decisions are operating in and that I was trying...

            As I said, this was in reference to the system folks are in - in the US, in these school systems, that's the paradigm that the people making these decisions are operating in and that I was trying to explain with empathy even when I don't agree with it.

            I understand your system, your paradigm was different. But if I'm responsible for the safety of others and one of my college students makes an off hand joke about shooting their class, I'd have to report it. Because I have no way to know if they do in fact have a gun. So the odds are certainly different in your experience versus here as well.

            I'm also stunned at a >10% death by suicide rate and it absolutely sounds like not enough was being done to support students and young adults. Too many people blow off threats of violence, of all sorts.

            6 votes
          2. Habituallytired
            Link Parent
            At my partner's former high school district (mostly from his school) were committing suicide because the pressure they felt from school, friends, and parents was too much. It made national news,...

            At my partner's former high school district (mostly from his school) were committing suicide because the pressure they felt from school, friends, and parents was too much. It made national news, and it happened less than the double-digit percentages, maybe 10-20 total in about 5 years, but it was enough that the city did something about it and there were 24/7 guards posted at each railroad crossing, counseling in schools, work done to lessen the mental load on these kids.

            The pressure was because of our proximity to Stanford, and the want of every parent to send their kids to the "Ivy League School of the West." More kids cheated at his high school to get better grades than were caught, and plenty were caught.

            3 votes
  6. skybrian
    Link
    From the article: …

    From the article:

    [A ninth-grader] opened Instagram and, over a hot pink background, began to type: “Blowing the skl up tmr... .”

    It was Sept. 10, six days after another 14-year-old was accused of gunning down two students and a pair of teachers at Apalachee High in Georgia.

    More threats would rapidly follow, in Volusia County and across the country, as if a pathogen had been set loose. An analysis of news reports by The Washington Post found that at least 477 people — 90 percent of them students — were arrested in the two weeks after the Georgia massacre. That’s nearly 100 more than in the aftermaths of the three previous mass school shootings combined.

    4 votes