I mean, I guess nobody should be fucking shocked about this. In fact, I'm more surprised it's not worse. Although, who knows what may come out regarding this situation in the future. Still tho,...
I mean, I guess nobody should be fucking shocked about this. In fact, I'm more surprised it's not worse. Although, who knows what may come out regarding this situation in the future. Still tho, this is horrendous and sickening
With hindsight, I know that shit like this has been going on for a long time. Not just the American history with indigenous Americans, not just the history with Japanese Internment, or the host of...
With hindsight, I know that shit like this has been going on for a long time. Not just the American history with indigenous Americans, not just the history with Japanese Internment, or the host of other nightmares. I know that making these migrants's lives hell has been a product of immigration policy for a while and I was just blind to it.
It's just really disorientating to wake up and realize I live in Omelas.
Edit: One thing that comes to mind as being particularly shit and hellish is that one town hoping to rebuild its economy around a child detention center. Just, what is this world I find myself in -- and then I remember this shit has been going on for a long time.
Oh shit, Ursula my girl. Never heard of this story tho. I didn't want to read too much of the synopsis so I don't spoil it for myself, but based on that blurb it sounds pretty good
Oh shit, Ursula my girl. Never heard of this story tho. I didn't want to read too much of the synopsis so I don't spoil it for myself, but based on that blurb it sounds pretty good
See arghdos for Omelas reference. Now that I think about it, it's worse than Omelas because at least the ones who stayed in Omelas chose quiet acceptance of the misery that allows them to live....
See arghdos for Omelas reference.
Now that I think about it, it's worse than Omelas because at least the ones who stayed in Omelas chose quiet acceptance of the misery that allows them to live. Instead we get a subset of people decidedly jubilant about the suffering of other people -- even if it does nothing for them.
I am in no way a supporter of any of this, but I always wonder - Where do we draw the line? Everyone is up in arms about all of this, but where do we draw the line on America's responsibility?...
I am in no way a supporter of any of this, but I always wonder - Where do we draw the line? Everyone is up in arms about all of this, but where do we draw the line on America's responsibility? Where do we draw the line on, being shocked or appalled certain situations are how they are. Some things will just be less than good.
Migrants detained in recent months at the U.S.-Mexico border describe being held in Customs and Border Protection facilities that are unsanitary and overcrowded, receiving largely inedible food and being forced to drink foul-smelling drinking water.
I am all for human decency, but we do have to be realistic. We have all of these people trying to escape hard lives by illegally coming into the US. I understand, their lives are bad. But people act like America should take care of every single migrant and put them up in a 5 star hotel on the tax payer's dime.
Yes, that an incredibly rough / harsh stance. Yes, saying something like, "They knew the risks of coming here illegally." is a very rough stance knowing a lot of them are trying find a better life for their children..
But what did people expect these facilities were like? I mean it has to be hard to maintain these places with the massive over crowding, but no one is realistic in that way. People literally have an attitude of, "WHat these people aren't in a 5 star hotel! No way!" No one stops and addresses the fact that these facilities take a lot of money to run and man. And that we might not have enough money or man power..
Everyone wants to address 5 problems at once, and when anyone tries to address a single problem and get it 100% resolved to make addressing the other 4 easier, people freak out - What about 2, 3, and 4,! Why aren't you doing anything about 2, 3, and 4!
People just want to much at once and sitting from the sidelines thinks it makes no sense to establish a baseline first, then act..
Or Choose one. It is legally justifiable to imprison people who illegally entered the country. It is in no way morally justifiable to force these people to endure substandard conditions...
I am all for human decency
Or
receiving largely inedible food and being forced to drink foul-smelling drinking water.
I asked if I could clean her because her underwear [was] soiled... The guards said, 'No.' ... She remained in her dirty underwear until we arrived at Dilley [Texas] several days later.
"[T]he worst thing was the water," said Delmis V. of Honduras, the mother of a two-year-old boy. "I had to plug my nose to be able to drink it. It came out of the faucet and smelled terrible."
Mayra S., the mother of children aged 2 and 9 years, said she "begged for water" for her daughter but was refused. "My daughter started crying. The officers told me to shut up."
Iris A. was one of several who complained about getting "frozen" food that she said "smelled bad" and was "not fit for consumption." Another said lettuce was "black."
Karen B., who was detained with two children, ages 4 and 5, said "At the [CBP] facility it is very, very cold. Especially when we were wet from the river. There were no clean clothes or towels available."
Karen said she could not sleep because it was so cold. "[M]y children cry from fear and from the cold. I can only hold one at a time to keep them warm. Whoever I am not holding is cold," she said.
"The only bathrooms were the small plastic bathrooms that do not flush," she said, apparently referring to portable toilets. "The officials told us that there were too many people and we could only shower after we had been there for five days."
Lidia S., 22, from El Salvador, and her 4-year-old son were apprehended by CBP on June 13 and taken to the South Texas Residential Center in Dilley. "[T]he only food we were given were sandwiches that were frozen and not able to be eaten," Lidia said.
Choose one.
It is legally justifiable to imprison people who illegally entered the country. It is in no way morally justifiable to force these people to endure substandard conditions (spoiled/inadequate food, bad water etc.) for months or years at a time while they await processing / legal proceedings. The idea that allowing (potential) permanent harm to occur on a systematic basis (disease, malnourishment, trauma of the separated children, etc.) because "we can't afford it" is laughably ill-concieved. Either change the system such that people are processed quicker (hiring more judges) to ease the strain on the detention system, be prepared to provide a basic level of human decency for months at a time (again this costs $), or reform the immigration system such that this artificial problem is no more.
What we have is a incompetent government incapable of any of these three options, and so morally bankrupt that they defend their decision to mistreat people because of the color of their skin (where are the camps for the illegal Canadian crossers? The visa overstayers?)
He said at the start he doesn't support it. I think he is more saying "this is terrible and needs to be done better but how much better do we want/ should we provide?"
He said at the start he doesn't support it. I think he is more saying "this is terrible and needs to be done better but how much better do we want/ should we provide?"
Is what the OP said. I'm not claiming you should put people in a 5-star hotel, what I'm saying is you if you imprison people, you are morally obligated to treat them humanely (and yes, this could...
But what did people expect these facilities were like? I mean it has to be hard to maintain these places with the massive over crowding, but no one is realistic in that way. People literally have an attitude of, "WHat these people aren't in a 5 star hotel! No way!" No one stops and addresses the fact that these facilities take a lot of money to run and man. And that we might not have enough money or man power..
Is what the OP said. I'm not claiming you should put people in a 5-star hotel, what I'm saying is you if you imprison people, you are morally obligated to treat them humanely (and yes, this could easily be extended to the prison system in America). The cost does not, and should never enter into this consideration; if for some reason it is too costly to imprison people such that the only way you can sustain them is via inhumane treatment, then you are morally obligated not to imprison them.
All persons deprived of their liberty shall be treated with
humanity and with respect for the inherent dignity of the
human person
All persons deprived of their liberty shall have the right to
an adequate standard of living, including adequate food,
drinking water, accommodation, clothing and bedding.
Adequate food and drinking water are human rights.
All prisoners shall be provided with wholesome and
adequate food at the usual hours and with drinking water
available whenever needed.
Clothing as a component of the right to an adequate
standard of living is a human right
All of which have been blatantly violated if the testimony of those interviewed is to be believed.
Redirecting this argument to the direction of "what should we provide them with?" does not absolve the moral responsibilities herein.
I'll take this opportunity to encourage everyone to read this essay from George J. Borjas (professor of economics and social policy at the Harvard Kennedy School) in which he argues that the...
This country is so big that you'd never really be affected by people migrating here
I'll take this opportunity to encourage everyone to read this essay from George J. Borjas (professor of economics and social policy at the Harvard Kennedy School) in which he argues that the detrimental effects of immigration are real, but narrowly focused; it simultaneously can increase the overall wealth of the nation, but often functions as mechanism to transfer wealth from native "losers" (people in trades heavily impacted by immigration) to native "winners" (their employers):
Trump might cite my work, but he overlooks my findings that the influx of immigrants can potentially be a net good for the nation, increasing the total wealth of the population. Clinton ignores the hard truth that not everyone benefits when immigrants arrive. For many Americans, the influx of immigrants hurts their prospects significantly.
In this case, immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer. And the additional profits are so large that the economic pie accruing to all natives actually grows. I estimate the current “immigration surplus”—the net increase in the total wealth of the native population—to be about $50 billion annually. But behind that calculation is a much larger shift from one group of Americans to another: The total wealth redistribution from the native losers to the native winners is enormous, roughly a half-trillion dollars a year. Immigrants, too, gain substantially; their total earnings far exceed what their income would have been had they not migrated.
Is there a potential immigration policy that considers the well-being of all native Americans? Maybe so. It’s not a ban on immigrants, or even on low-skilled immigrants. High-skilled immigration really can make America wealthier. The steady influx of legal immigrants also produces more taxpayers, who can assist financially as the native population ages. Then there’s the matter of principle: Many Americans feel that it is a good thing to judiciously give some of “your tired, your poor, your huddled masses” a chance.
But we’re worrying about the wrong things, with policy fights focused on how many and which immigrants to accept, and not enough on how to mitigate the harm they create along the way.
Put them on a bus and send them back then. People complain no matter what solution is proposed. Send them back, "No how cruel!" Hold them until processing, "No how cruel!"
Put them on a bus and send them back then. People complain no matter what solution is proposed. Send them back, "No how cruel!" Hold them until processing, "No how cruel!"
Over the past decade, the United States government has dramatically expanded
its use of a program called “stipulated removal” that has allowed
immigration officials to deport over 160,000 non-U.S. citizens without ever
giving them their day in court. This report synthesizes information obtained
from never-before-released U.S. government documents and data about stipulated
removal that became available for analysis as a result of a lawsuit
filed under the federal Freedom of Information Act (FOIA).
According to the previously unreleased data, the federal government has
used stipulated removal primarily on noncitizens in immigration detention
who lack lawyers and are facing deportation due to minor immigration violations.
These noncitizens were given a Hobson’s choice: Accept a stipulated
removal order and agree to your deportation, or stay in immigration
detention to fight your case.
Government records obtained through FOIA litigation suggest that government
officials offering stipulated removal to immigrant detainees routinely
provided them with inaccurate, misleading, and confusing information
about the law and removal process. For example, government agents overemphasized
the length of time detainees would spend in detention if they
chose to fight their cases and see a judge, yet failed to tell detainees that they
could secure release from detention on bond while fighting their cases, or
that some might win the right to remain legally in the country. In addition,
detainees often had no chance to understand the consequences of signing a
stipulated removal order due to systemic language barriers and the lack of
quality interpretation and translation that are known to plague many immigration
detention facilities.
Further:
People complain no matter what solution is proposed. Send them back, "No how cruel!" Hold them until processing, "No how cruel!"
Because all the "solutions" proposed are bullshit.
That's my point right there. There is no winning answer. We detain them until they can be processed / heard, or we send them back. One or the other. But people pick apart each side like we don't...
That's my point right there. There is no winning answer. We detain them until they can be processed / heard, or we send them back. One or the other. But people pick apart each side like we don't have to make a decision and take whatever fallout comes with the one we choose. People act like there should be zero fallout and that is my overall problem. No solution will be perfect, but people refuse to acknowledge that.
People act like detaining these people until they can be processed / get their due process is criminal... It's not, it's just what we have to do.
Doing so while denying them access to adequate water, food and clothing should be criminal, no matter the extenuating circumstances of $. Holding them alone is not.
People act like detaining these people until they can be processed / get their due process is criminal... It's not, it's just what we have to do.
Doing so while denying them access to adequate water, food and clothing should be criminal, no matter the extenuating circumstances of $. Holding them alone is not.
I guess, I just feel they spin the sob story. If people don't like it, send in money / food / bottled water, go down there and volunteer. Easy to shout from the sidelines miles away. I'll gladly...
I guess, I just feel they spin the sob story. If people don't like it, send in money / food / bottled water, go down there and volunteer. Easy to shout from the sidelines miles away. I'll gladly send in a dozen cases of bottled water if it helps.. But even that, people will say - That won't do anything! That's not enough for everyone!
Yeah fair, except for the fact ICE has been violating federal policy by restricting even NGOs access to the detention centres which has resulted in a recent lawsuit... so how exactly is one...
Yeah fair, except for the fact ICE has been violating federal policy by restricting even NGOs access to the detention centres which has resulted in a recent lawsuit... so how exactly is one supposed to volunteer to help make the conditions there better?
I honestly would be fine with just letting them come here and try to fucking live in America. I'm a native born citizen and I fuckin struggle to get by, and I make 19 dollars an hour. If they can...
I honestly would be fine with just letting them come here and try to fucking live in America. I'm a native born citizen and I fuckin struggle to get by, and I make 19 dollars an hour. If they can come here and live off of 7 dollars an hour then why are we stopping them? Mad props to anyone who can survive on next to nothing and provide for their family. Plus, it's not that easy to be here. The current climate is hostile as fuck to immigrants. It's possible they'd just want to leave eventually anyway. I really don't know why anyone cares about who comes here
People care ,because they don't all pay their fair share and refuse to learn things associated with living here, A lot of these people end up on welfare or using some form of aid / system tax...
I really don't know why anyone cares about who comes here
People care ,because they don't all pay their fair share and refuse to learn things associated with living here, A lot of these people end up on welfare or using some form of aid / system tax dollars fund. That's why a lot of people care. You see those stories all the time where someone was here illegally for 30 years who never once tried to get citizenship because they didn't want to pay taxes. People see that and think it's all cases. Which is obviously isn't.
You know that's mostly untrue right? And that, in fact, most citizens here illegally receive far less in terms of benefit that their legal or natural born counterparts. For one, they pay sales tax...
You know that's mostly untrue right? And that, in fact, most citizens here illegally receive far less in terms of benefit that their legal or natural born counterparts. For one, they pay sales tax on everything they buy, just like everybody else. They frequently work jobs that are paid under the table or are paid low wages, and don't often receive the benefit of the societal safety net that the rest of us do. I've never heard of a single case where, when questioned, an illegal immigrant living here for decades stated that they actively decided not to be a citizen because of the taxes. Usually it's because they're afraid of being deported for coming forward in the first place. I'm not saying that it's totally untrue, but I'm of the mind that it's more false than true
But that creates a whole new wave of problems. I mean it sounds all well and good to just not detain them and let them all come into America, but that sets a very bad precedent. Why is it on...
But that creates a whole new wave of problems. I mean it sounds all well and good to just not detain them and let them all come into America, but that sets a very bad precedent. Why is it on America to support ever migrant of the world? Realistically, we can't do it, and people just need to see that. It isn't a matter of human decency or cruelty. We just don't have the means to do it. And we can't afford to let massive amounts of people come in that will eventually be supported by the tax payer. It would be great if the world was all sunshine and rainbows and money, but it isn't. And I just have a problem with people not seeing that. "Why don't we just do this, why don't we just do that..." Okay, but you'll fund it through more taxes. "No, I don't want to do it then."
I am just fed up with these people being blind to both sides of this thing and wanting to pull the rug out when they see they'll pay for it. Just like this whole detention facility thing. People want to say oh ho horrible but when taxes go up to make these places nicer they panic. Oh I don't like the situation, but I don't want to pay more taxes either.
And yes, these people have hard lives they want to escape. They still came here illegally. So this is a gray situation. Which I don't think people are looking at it like that.
We have Americans with problems very similar to these immigrants, but it isn't making front page headlines. Just disappointed in how blind these people upset with it all can be.
What precedent is that? Why does America deserve to bask in wealth while millions live in poverty, poverty often created as a result of imperialism? Why not? Immigrants are a net benefit to the...
but that sets a very bad precedent.
What precedent is that?
Why is it on America to support ever migrant of the world?
Why does America deserve to bask in wealth while millions live in poverty, poverty often created as a result of imperialism?
Realistically, we can't do it, and people just need to see that.
Why not?
And we can't afford to let massive amounts of people come in that will eventually be supported by the tax payer.
Immigrants are a net benefit to the economy, the US can easily afford to run a larger deficit, and we have a gigantic defense budget ripe for redistribution. We can manage it.
Okay, but you'll fund it through more taxes.
Sounds good to me, especially if it targets business and the financial sector.
Just like this whole detention facility thing. People want to say oh ho horrible but when taxes go up to make these places nicer they panic.
Even if you want to keep the immigrants out, you don't need to detain them. Put them on a bus and leave them on the other side of the border.
They still came here illegally. So this is a gray situation.
There is nothing wrong with breaking the law. The action the state says is illegal may be wrong, such as murdering someone, but merely breaking a law is not immoral.
We have Americans with problems very similar to these immigrants, but it isn't making front page headlines.
You're right, we ought to be outraged about homelessness, mass incarceration, and poverty too.
Outrage fatigue. When everything is an outrage, nothing is. When you have someone constantly pointing out every flaw of our system - while most people are just trying to live with some modicum of...
Outrage fatigue. When everything is an outrage, nothing is. When you have someone constantly pointing out every flaw of our system - while most people are just trying to live with some modicum of happiness and peace - you lose them. You end up looking like the tattle tale in class that the teacher rolls her eyes in response to. At some point you, personally, have to grips with the fact that the world is not perfect, that bad stuff happens. I urge you to consider how much progress humanity has made (you cited imperialism, so I assume you know some history). Are these issues important? People living in shitty detention facilities eating lousy food? For me, I can think of a lot of actual atrocities that are happening which demand my sympathy and attention.
That wasn't what I meant. I meant that is people's attitudes right now, and I have a problem with people looking at it that way because this just happens to be in the spotlight this month. People...
That wasn't what I meant. I meant that is people's attitudes right now, and I have a problem with people looking at it that way because this just happens to be in the spotlight this month. People don't care as much about the issues as they do about feeling like they care. It's why people aren't being practical. And that is my overall issue, people are not being practical or well reasoned. It's easy to say what sounds good, executing it is hard.
No one argues this. To even suggest this article, highlighting the fact that the food is inedible and the water is not potable, is a really shitty straw man argument. This whole situation makes me...
I am all for human decency, but we do have to be realistic. We have all of these people trying to escape hard lives by illegally coming into the US. I understand, their lives are bad. But people act like America should take care of every single migrant and put them up in a 5 star hotel on the tax payer's dime.
No one argues this. To even suggest this article, highlighting the fact that the food is inedible and the water is not potable, is a really shitty straw man argument.
This whole situation makes me wonder, what water are the guards drinking? Is it the same water? Perhaps the infrastructure of this area is fucked and we need to fix it so our own citizens can live there.
Other have already covered most of what I would touch on in response to your comment, but I wanted to touch on this part in particular: Let's drop the subject of immigration for a moment and...
Other have already covered most of what I would touch on in response to your comment, but I wanted to touch on this part in particular:
But what did people expect these facilities were like?
Let's drop the subject of immigration for a moment and consider instead the subject of visiting a foreign country. Should someone who comes here legally from e.g. on vacation from England, but knowingly or unknowingly commits a crime, be forced into such substandard conditions just because they're from another country? Obviously not. We have a standard in our country that those who commit crimes receive due process and be kept in humane conditions until such time that they have gone through the process of having a fair trial. This is something that we typically guarantee to anyone who steps foot in this country, regardless of citizenship.
Thus, it doesn't matter that the specific issue at hand is immigration--we should be ensuring that everyone is receiving due process and being kept in humane conditions. If the state is funding these detention centers, then it's the responsibility of the state to fix the damn problem. If it's the federal government, then it's their responsibility to fix it. And whether it's a matter of increasing the facilities' sizes, increasing funding in general for the facilities, appointing more judges to take care of the backlog of cases, or whatever the hell it is we decide to do, it needs to be done. If it can't be done, then we shouldn't be detaining people, period.
Neither the nature of the crime, nor one's skin color, nor their national origin, nor their religion, nor their taste in coffee, nor any other factor--save for the fact that they're standing on American soil--have any bearing on the matter whatsoever. This is something that everyone should be outraged at because it stands in direct opposition to American principles.
That's the thing. I don't think it is as crowded as they make it out to be, and if it is, send them back to where they came from. We either process them or we send them back. People complain at...
That's the thing. I don't think it is as crowded as they make it out to be, and if it is, send them back to where they came from. We either process them or we send them back. People complain at either proposal.
I think they are more overcrowded than they should be, but I don't think they are as over crowded as the news makes them out to be. Either way, my point was people should stop and think about what...
I think they are more overcrowded than they should be, but I don't think they are as over crowded as the news makes them out to be. Either way, my point was people should stop and think about what factor being overcrowded plays.
I honestly don't give a fuck who crosses what border. Borders between nations are simply imaginary lines on a giant rock floating in the middle of infinite nothingness. Who gives a fuck. Let...
I honestly don't give a fuck who crosses what border. Borders between nations are simply imaginary lines on a giant rock floating in the middle of infinite nothingness. Who gives a fuck. Let people traverse nations and be free to move about the Earth. And before you say "well then I'll just come into your home since you don't like borders" let me stop you. There is a huge difference between a person's personal autonomy as expressed in the limits of their home and residence or property line, and crossing into a nation.
Like 70 years ago all you needed to get into America was to be dirty and poor and on a boat to Ellis island with twenty bucks in your pocket. They actually encouraged you to have a job lined up. They actually wanted you to steal our jobs back then
These migrants aren't wanting to freely traverse, they want a permanent home here in America. If they follow the right path, and pay their taxes when it comes to it, I will welcome them with open...
These migrants aren't wanting to freely traverse, they want a permanent home here in America. If they follow the right path, and pay their taxes when it comes to it, I will welcome them with open arms.
And I say, make "the right path" as easy as simply showing up. That's how it used to be, and it's how it should be again. I reiterate that a lot of these people move from places where our country...
And I say, make "the right path" as easy as simply showing up. That's how it used to be, and it's how it should be again. I reiterate that a lot of these people move from places where our country created the hostile conditions that they live in in the first place. Or didn't help those conditions. And don't forget, illegal immigrants pay sales tax on everything they buy, they aren't afforded the comfort of the social safety net that being a citizen allows, and they are often paid very low wages for jobs that you wouldn't even want to do in the first place. So I ask, again, why make it so fucking hard to be a citizen? I don't even care if they learn the language or the culture. It's not out like you know fuckin Cherokee or anything
I mean, I guess nobody should be fucking shocked about this. In fact, I'm more surprised it's not worse. Although, who knows what may come out regarding this situation in the future. Still tho, this is horrendous and sickening
With hindsight, I know that shit like this has been going on for a long time. Not just the American history with indigenous Americans, not just the history with Japanese Internment, or the host of other nightmares. I know that making these migrants's lives hell has been a product of immigration policy for a while and I was just blind to it.
It's just really disorientating to wake up and realize I live in Omelas.
Edit: One thing that comes to mind as being particularly shit and hellish is that one town hoping to rebuild its economy around a child detention center. Just, what is this world I find myself in -- and then I remember this shit has been going on for a long time.
Omelas?
But yeah, we've been basically Andrew Jacksoning this shit forever
Omelas, pretty sure
Oh shit, Ursula my girl. Never heard of this story tho. I didn't want to read too much of the synopsis so I don't spoil it for myself, but based on that blurb it sounds pretty good
See arghdos for Omelas reference.
Now that I think about it, it's worse than Omelas because at least the ones who stayed in Omelas chose quiet acceptance of the misery that allows them to live. Instead we get a subset of people decidedly jubilant about the suffering of other people -- even if it does nothing for them.
There is a kind of collective schadenfreude going on between the different political wings in this country lately.
I am in no way a supporter of any of this, but I always wonder - Where do we draw the line? Everyone is up in arms about all of this, but where do we draw the line on America's responsibility? Where do we draw the line on, being shocked or appalled certain situations are how they are. Some things will just be less than good.
I am all for human decency, but we do have to be realistic. We have all of these people trying to escape hard lives by illegally coming into the US. I understand, their lives are bad. But people act like America should take care of every single migrant and put them up in a 5 star hotel on the tax payer's dime.
Yes, that an incredibly rough / harsh stance. Yes, saying something like, "They knew the risks of coming here illegally." is a very rough stance knowing a lot of them are trying find a better life for their children..
But what did people expect these facilities were like? I mean it has to be hard to maintain these places with the massive over crowding, but no one is realistic in that way. People literally have an attitude of, "WHat these people aren't in a 5 star hotel! No way!" No one stops and addresses the fact that these facilities take a lot of money to run and man. And that we might not have enough money or man power..
Everyone wants to address 5 problems at once, and when anyone tries to address a single problem and get it 100% resolved to make addressing the other 4 easier, people freak out - What about 2, 3, and 4,! Why aren't you doing anything about 2, 3, and 4!
People just want to much at once and sitting from the sidelines thinks it makes no sense to establish a baseline first, then act..
Or
Choose one.
It is legally justifiable to imprison people who illegally entered the country. It is in no way morally justifiable to force these people to endure substandard conditions (spoiled/inadequate food, bad water etc.) for months or years at a time while they await processing / legal proceedings. The idea that allowing (potential) permanent harm to occur on a systematic basis (disease, malnourishment, trauma of the separated children, etc.) because "we can't afford it" is laughably ill-concieved. Either change the system such that people are processed quicker (hiring more judges) to ease the strain on the detention system, be prepared to provide a basic level of human decency for months at a time (again this costs $), or reform the immigration system such that this artificial problem is no more.
What we have is a incompetent government incapable of any of these three options, and so morally bankrupt that they defend their decision to mistreat people because of the color of their skin (where are the camps for the illegal Canadian crossers? The visa overstayers?)
Well said
He said at the start he doesn't support it. I think he is more saying "this is terrible and needs to be done better but how much better do we want/ should we provide?"
Is what the OP said. I'm not claiming you should put people in a 5-star hotel, what I'm saying is you if you imprison people, you are morally obligated to treat them humanely (and yes, this could easily be extended to the prison system in America). The cost does not, and should never enter into this consideration; if for some reason it is too costly to imprison people such that the only way you can sustain them is via inhumane treatment, then you are morally obligated not to imprison them.
The UN has a set of human rights standards for imprisonment, including Section 4, entitled "Right to an Adequate Standard of Living", which includes:
All of which have been blatantly violated if the testimony of those interviewed is to be believed.
Redirecting this argument to the direction of "what should we provide them with?" does not absolve the moral responsibilities herein.
Right. If you don't want it to cost money, don't fucking cage people
Yeah I agree
We could just stop worrying about people coming here. This country is so big that you'd never really be affected by people migrating here
I'll take this opportunity to encourage everyone to read this essay from George J. Borjas (professor of economics and social policy at the Harvard Kennedy School) in which he argues that the detrimental effects of immigration are real, but narrowly focused; it simultaneously can increase the overall wealth of the nation, but often functions as mechanism to transfer wealth from native "losers" (people in trades heavily impacted by immigration) to native "winners" (their employers):
Certainly an interesting read! Thanks for sharing
Put them on a bus and send them back then. People complain no matter what solution is proposed. Send them back, "No how cruel!" Hold them until processing, "No how cruel!"
I suppose we should remove their right to due process as well then?
Further:
Because all the "solutions" proposed are bullshit.
No..
Then how do you "put them on a bus and send them back" if need to be held until they are given a chance to argue their case in court?
That's my point right there. There is no winning answer. We detain them until they can be processed / heard, or we send them back. One or the other. But people pick apart each side like we don't have to make a decision and take whatever fallout comes with the one we choose. People act like there should be zero fallout and that is my overall problem. No solution will be perfect, but people refuse to acknowledge that.
People act like detaining these people until they can be processed / get their due process is criminal... It's not, it's just what we have to do.
Doing so while denying them access to adequate water, food and clothing should be criminal, no matter the extenuating circumstances of $. Holding them alone is not.
I guess, I just feel they spin the sob story. If people don't like it, send in money / food / bottled water, go down there and volunteer. Easy to shout from the sidelines miles away. I'll gladly send in a dozen cases of bottled water if it helps.. But even that, people will say - That won't do anything! That's not enough for everyone!
That's fair.
Yeah fair, except for the fact ICE has been violating federal policy by restricting even NGOs access to the detention centres which has resulted in a recent lawsuit... so how exactly is one supposed to volunteer to help make the conditions there better?
That's fine. If we had more socialist social policies we might have more people actually doing this
I honestly would be fine with just letting them come here and try to fucking live in America. I'm a native born citizen and I fuckin struggle to get by, and I make 19 dollars an hour. If they can come here and live off of 7 dollars an hour then why are we stopping them? Mad props to anyone who can survive on next to nothing and provide for their family. Plus, it's not that easy to be here. The current climate is hostile as fuck to immigrants. It's possible they'd just want to leave eventually anyway. I really don't know why anyone cares about who comes here
People care ,because they don't all pay their fair share and refuse to learn things associated with living here, A lot of these people end up on welfare or using some form of aid / system tax dollars fund. That's why a lot of people care. You see those stories all the time where someone was here illegally for 30 years who never once tried to get citizenship because they didn't want to pay taxes. People see that and think it's all cases. Which is obviously isn't.
You know that's mostly untrue right? And that, in fact, most citizens here illegally receive far less in terms of benefit that their legal or natural born counterparts. For one, they pay sales tax on everything they buy, just like everybody else. They frequently work jobs that are paid under the table or are paid low wages, and don't often receive the benefit of the societal safety net that the rest of us do. I've never heard of a single case where, when questioned, an illegal immigrant living here for decades stated that they actively decided not to be a citizen because of the taxes. Usually it's because they're afraid of being deported for coming forward in the first place. I'm not saying that it's totally untrue, but I'm of the mind that it's more false than true
We could stop detaining them, then the issue of giving them lodging becomes moot.
But that creates a whole new wave of problems. I mean it sounds all well and good to just not detain them and let them all come into America, but that sets a very bad precedent. Why is it on America to support ever migrant of the world? Realistically, we can't do it, and people just need to see that. It isn't a matter of human decency or cruelty. We just don't have the means to do it. And we can't afford to let massive amounts of people come in that will eventually be supported by the tax payer. It would be great if the world was all sunshine and rainbows and money, but it isn't. And I just have a problem with people not seeing that. "Why don't we just do this, why don't we just do that..." Okay, but you'll fund it through more taxes. "No, I don't want to do it then."
I am just fed up with these people being blind to both sides of this thing and wanting to pull the rug out when they see they'll pay for it. Just like this whole detention facility thing. People want to say oh ho horrible but when taxes go up to make these places nicer they panic. Oh I don't like the situation, but I don't want to pay more taxes either.
And yes, these people have hard lives they want to escape. They still came here illegally. So this is a gray situation. Which I don't think people are looking at it like that.
We have Americans with problems very similar to these immigrants, but it isn't making front page headlines. Just disappointed in how blind these people upset with it all can be.
What precedent is that?
Why does America deserve to bask in wealth while millions live in poverty, poverty often created as a result of imperialism?
Why not?
Immigrants are a net benefit to the economy, the US can easily afford to run a larger deficit, and we have a gigantic defense budget ripe for redistribution. We can manage it.
Sounds good to me, especially if it targets business and the financial sector.
Even if you want to keep the immigrants out, you don't need to detain them. Put them on a bus and leave them on the other side of the border.
There is nothing wrong with breaking the law. The action the state says is illegal may be wrong, such as murdering someone, but merely breaking a law is not immoral.
You're right, we ought to be outraged about homelessness, mass incarceration, and poverty too.
A lot of the time, our imperialism actually led to the conditions which require these immigrants to seek a better, safer life in the first place
I feel like you just keep saying things that sound good. Almost all of your questions were answered in my comment.
Outrage fatigue. When everything is an outrage, nothing is. When you have someone constantly pointing out every flaw of our system - while most people are just trying to live with some modicum of happiness and peace - you lose them. You end up looking like the tattle tale in class that the teacher rolls her eyes in response to. At some point you, personally, have to grips with the fact that the world is not perfect, that bad stuff happens. I urge you to consider how much progress humanity has made (you cited imperialism, so I assume you know some history). Are these issues important? People living in shitty detention facilities eating lousy food? For me, I can think of a lot of actual atrocities that are happening which demand my sympathy and attention.
Honestly, it's not healthy to get worked up over the injustices in this world, because it will never end. I'm not saying give up, just don't let it consume you completely.
That wasn't what I meant. I meant that is people's attitudes right now, and I have a problem with people looking at it that way because this just happens to be in the spotlight this month. People don't care as much about the issues as they do about feeling like they care. It's why people aren't being practical. And that is my overall issue, people are not being practical or well reasoned. It's easy to say what sounds good, executing it is hard.
It's really not every migrant in the world. People move across borders of all nations all over the planet. We really do need to stop caring about it
My point was, people are acting like America should right now, like that is realistic, and it's irritating.
Maybe we should right now. It would make up for literal centuries of imperialism and maliciousness, warfare and unwanted intervention at our hands
No one argues this. To even suggest this article, highlighting the fact that the food is inedible and the water is not potable, is a really shitty straw man argument.
This whole situation makes me wonder, what water are the guards drinking? Is it the same water? Perhaps the infrastructure of this area is fucked and we need to fix it so our own citizens can live there.
Exactly. You put it much better than I did.
Other have already covered most of what I would touch on in response to your comment, but I wanted to touch on this part in particular:
Let's drop the subject of immigration for a moment and consider instead the subject of visiting a foreign country. Should someone who comes here legally from e.g. on vacation from England, but knowingly or unknowingly commits a crime, be forced into such substandard conditions just because they're from another country? Obviously not. We have a standard in our country that those who commit crimes receive due process and be kept in humane conditions until such time that they have gone through the process of having a fair trial. This is something that we typically guarantee to anyone who steps foot in this country, regardless of citizenship.
Thus, it doesn't matter that the specific issue at hand is immigration--we should be ensuring that everyone is receiving due process and being kept in humane conditions. If the state is funding these detention centers, then it's the responsibility of the state to fix the damn problem. If it's the federal government, then it's their responsibility to fix it. And whether it's a matter of increasing the facilities' sizes, increasing funding in general for the facilities, appointing more judges to take care of the backlog of cases, or whatever the hell it is we decide to do, it needs to be done. If it can't be done, then we shouldn't be detaining people, period.
Neither the nature of the crime, nor one's skin color, nor their national origin, nor their religion, nor their taste in coffee, nor any other factor--save for the fact that they're standing on American soil--have any bearing on the matter whatsoever. This is something that everyone should be outraged at because it stands in direct opposition to American principles.
That's the thing. I don't think it is as crowded as they make it out to be, and if it is, send them back to where they came from. We either process them or we send them back. People complain at either proposal.
I think they are more overcrowded than they should be, but I don't think they are as over crowded as the news makes them out to be. Either way, my point was people should stop and think about what factor being overcrowded plays.
I honestly don't give a fuck who crosses what border. Borders between nations are simply imaginary lines on a giant rock floating in the middle of infinite nothingness. Who gives a fuck. Let people traverse nations and be free to move about the Earth. And before you say "well then I'll just come into your home since you don't like borders" let me stop you. There is a huge difference between a person's personal autonomy as expressed in the limits of their home and residence or property line, and crossing into a nation.
Like 70 years ago all you needed to get into America was to be dirty and poor and on a boat to Ellis island with twenty bucks in your pocket. They actually encouraged you to have a job lined up. They actually wanted you to steal our jobs back then
Times have changed and we have regulations in place for specific reasons though. We can;t just not document people in today's age.
There's a difference between documenting people, and having restrictions on who gets to traverse freely through the planet
These migrants aren't wanting to freely traverse, they want a permanent home here in America. If they follow the right path, and pay their taxes when it comes to it, I will welcome them with open arms.
And I say, make "the right path" as easy as simply showing up. That's how it used to be, and it's how it should be again. I reiterate that a lot of these people move from places where our country created the hostile conditions that they live in in the first place. Or didn't help those conditions. And don't forget, illegal immigrants pay sales tax on everything they buy, they aren't afforded the comfort of the social safety net that being a citizen allows, and they are often paid very low wages for jobs that you wouldn't even want to do in the first place. So I ask, again, why make it so fucking hard to be a citizen? I don't even care if they learn the language or the culture. It's not out like you know fuckin Cherokee or anything