26 votes

Manafort juror reveals lone holdout prevented Mueller team from winning conviction on all counts

19 comments

  1. [12]
    dubteedub Link
    Of course it was a Trump supporter who was the lone holdout Edit: It is also now being reported that Trump is considering pardoning Manafort...

    Of course it was a Trump supporter who was the lone holdout

    Duncan described herself as an avid supporter of President Trump, but said she was moved by four full boxes of exhibits provided by Mueller’s team – though she was skeptical about prosecutors' motives in the financial crimes case.

    “Certainly Mr. Manafort got caught breaking the law, but he wouldn’t have gotten caught if they weren’t after President Trump,” Duncan said of the special counsel’s case, which she separately described as a “witch hunt to try to find Russian collusion,” borrowing a phrase Trump has used in tweets more than 100 times.

    “Every day when I drove, I had my Make America Great Again hat in the backseat,” said Duncan, who said she plans to vote for Trump again in 2020. “Just as a reminder.”

    Edit: It is also now being reported that Trump is considering pardoning Manafort

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-manafort/trump-says-hes-considering-pardon-for-manafort-fox-news-reporter-idUSKCN1L806F?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social

    24 votes
    1. [4]
      nacho Link Parent
      This is what keeps striking me. Repeating something untrue over and over again works. Seeding that doubt is all you need on any issue before loads of people get confused or just "don't know"...

      “Certainly Mr. Manafort got caught breaking the law, but he wouldn’t have gotten caught if they weren’t after President Trump,” Duncan said of the special counsel’s case, which she separately described as a “witch hunt to try to find Russian collusion,” borrowing a phrase Trump has used in tweets more than 100 times.

      This is what keeps striking me.

      Repeating something untrue over and over again works. Seeding that doubt is all you need on any issue before loads of people get confused or just "don't know" what's right and wrong anymore.

      It's depressing to think about, but that's how intellectually capable or intellectually lazy or whatever you want to call it society is as a whole.

      13 votes
      1. [3]
        wise Link Parent
        I don't see how it's solvable though, it seems pretty much basic brain chemistry and we're all susceptible to it in a larger or smaller way. I kind of go crazy sometimes thinking about whether...

        I don't see how it's solvable though, it seems pretty much basic brain chemistry and we're all susceptible to it in a larger or smaller way. I kind of go crazy sometimes thinking about whether what I say and think are my own thoughts or it has been planted there via cultural memes and manipulation (benevolent or not). It's quite depressing honestly.

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          nacho Link Parent
          I'll give an example to describe why I think it's strange. In a right-angled triangle, the sum of the square of the two shorter sides equals the length of the hypotenuse squared. Simply stated the...

          I'll give an example to describe why I think it's strange.

          In a right-angled triangle, the sum of the square of the two shorter sides equals the length of the hypotenuse squared.

          Simply stated the Pythagorean theorem reads a^2 + b^2 = c^2


          This is a simple truth, the evidence is strikingly clear to give, there are scores of different ways of proving it. At the same time, the Pythagorean theorem is probably about at the threshold where many adults need help with the proofs.

          I'd suggest it's about at the level of difficulty of many of the basic political untruths being spread: Practically anyone can verify the truthiness of the claim for themselves with a little help or by watching a pedagogic youtube video.

          You could probably manage to deceive a lot of people into thinking the Pythagorean theorem is a lie, or that the world is flat.

          Or using a similar level of epistemological tools taught in high school, that vaccines are dangerous, or that something is a witch hunt although people keep pleading guilty.

          Or getting Americans so unsure that only 47% surveyed said Obama was definitely born in the US


          You can repeat something that contravenes basically anything you can easily demonstrate using skills taught in the last year or two of high school and sow so much doubt that people give up or no longer know what's true.

          3 votes
          1. MrGrey Link Parent
            That tends to occur most easily when people don't actually know how to derive the state of any given situation. They are totally reliant on knowledge proxies to tell them 'what is so' and continue...

            That tends to occur most easily when people don't actually know how to derive the state of any given situation. They are totally reliant on knowledge proxies to tell them 'what is so' and continue to use these as primary knowledge resources. The idea of being able to decode this information for themselves from primary evidence or just expending time/energy to verify that what you assume is true, actually is true, is simply out of phase with their thought process.

            That's not to say this is limited in any way to politics or conspiracy nonsense. In another context, most people have little to no grasp how most of the technology they use everyday actually works. A mechanic can easily tell someone they need a new engine because they parked their car on angle in the rain or a plumber that their sink needs replacing because the water gnomes are worn out. Having no grasp of the internals of a combustion engine or something as simple as a ball valve compresses the scope of realistic interpretation. The differences that are stark and obvious with specialized experience and insight become obtuse and greyed to those without it. Their world is filled with knowledge proxies.

            I've never been overly convinced that blind faith in specialist economies/societies are a 'good' thing without considering the built-in assumption of good faith participation.

            1 vote
    2. [3]
      CALICO Link Parent
      The interesting thing here is that as the other 10 counts were mistrial, the Prosecution has a right to go after those again. If Trump does pardon Manafort, it will only be for the 8 counts he was...

      The interesting thing here is that as the other 10 counts were mistrial, the Prosecution has a right to go after those again. If Trump does pardon Manafort, it will only be for the 8 counts he was found guilty on, and he can be back in court to face those 10 charges.
      Additionally, Manafort still has his other trial next month which has twice the evidence as this one did.

      11 votes
      1. 39hp Link Parent
        There’s also the state of New York that is ready to put Manafort on trial for violations of NY state law. No President is allowed to pardon those. One cage or another, he’s going to prison.

        There’s also the state of New York that is ready to put Manafort on trial for violations of NY state law. No President is allowed to pardon those.

        One cage or another, he’s going to prison.

        8 votes
      2. MrGrey Link Parent
        Sounds like a useful public demonstration to me. Watch the president pardon a series of what could end up being 8-25 counts in chunked increments and then watch him go away on state charges. I'm...

        Sounds like a useful public demonstration to me. Watch the president pardon a series of what could end up being 8-25 counts in chunked increments and then watch him go away on state charges. I'm only disappointed the Ukraine investigation didn't end up bringing charges as well.

        2 votes
    3. [4]
      Fin Link Parent
      we all knew that pardon was coming.

      we all knew that pardon was coming.

      6 votes
      1. [3]
        teaearlgraycold Link Parent
        Wouldn't a pardon mean that Manafort will be sought after by New York for state-level crimes?

        Wouldn't a pardon mean that Manafort will be sought after by New York for state-level crimes?

        1. [2]
          Fin (edited ) Link Parent
          see this is what I thought and confused for cohen's case which DOES have state charges. I honestly don't know if state charges are on manafort's plate.

          see this is what I thought and confused for cohen's case which DOES have state charges. I honestly don't know if state charges are on manafort's plate.

          1. 39hp Link Parent
            I think they are. Both of the Dem candidates for NYSAG are running on trying Manafort for state crimes if Trump pardons him for federal crimes. Both of them are arguing that they are the most...

            I think they are. Both of the Dem candidates for NYSAG are running on trying Manafort for state crimes if Trump pardons him for federal crimes. Both of them are arguing that they are the most ready to try Manafort.

            I think the major wrinkle of a pardon is that a pardon comes with an admission of guilt for a crime. That will make any defense against prosecution by the state of NY that much more difficult.

            3 votes
  2. frickindeal Link
    A pardon for these convictions should kick Congress into action, but it won't. Here you have a man who was arrested, posted bail, and then had that bail revoked for obstruction, in what amounted...

    A pardon for these convictions should kick Congress into action, but it won't. Here you have a man who was arrested, posted bail, and then had that bail revoked for obstruction, in what amounted to witness tampering. He's then convicted by a jury of his peers, the very bedrock of our legal system; jurors who heard testimony and read exhibits and who included at least one admitted Trump supporter, and apparently carefully deliberated for days, asked questions of the judge, to ultimately reach the conclusion that he was guilty on eight counts. To pardon him would be an affront to those jurors, that court, the Special Counsel, and the entire justice system.

    I honestly think the whole idea of Presidential pardons could be due for a re-examination. It gives a sitting President powers more akin to exactly what the founding fathers sought to avoid: a King.

    13 votes
  3. [6]
    Fin Link
    Totally paid off.

    Totally paid off.

    2 votes
    1. [5]
      demifiend (edited ) Link Parent
      Trump doesn't need to pay off his useful idiots. They'll support him despite his abject failure to keep any of his campaign promises.

      Totally paid off.

      Trump doesn't need to pay off his useful idiots. They'll support him despite his abject failure to keep any of his campaign promises.

      15 votes
      1. [3]
        Fin Link Parent
        Very true and now I want to delete my comment.

        Very true and now I want to delete my comment.

        4 votes
        1. [2]
          demifiend Link Parent
          You can if you like.

          You can if you like.

          1 vote
          1. Fin Link Parent
            I'll leave my shame.

            I'll leave my shame.

            8 votes
      2. Fin Link Parent
        Build the wall! ..............(without mexico paying for it, they never were and was only a slogan that was easy to remember)

        Build the wall! ..............(without mexico paying for it, they never were and was only a slogan that was easy to remember)

        3 votes