34 votes

Pittsburgh synagogue shooting leaves at least four dead, official says

27 comments

  1. Cosmos
    Link
    I lived in Pittsburgh for 5 years, about a mile away from Squirrel Hill. That neighborhood is THE community for Jews in Pittsburgh. Over 50% of Pittsburgh's Jewish population lives there. So the...
    • Exemplary

    I lived in Pittsburgh for 5 years, about a mile away from Squirrel Hill. That neighborhood is THE community for Jews in Pittsburgh. Over 50% of Pittsburgh's Jewish population lives there. So the second I heard that neighborhood's name, I knew what the motive was going to be. No way it could have been a coincidence.

    I cannot even imagine what is going to happen to that community after this. How is anyone who lives there going to be able to feel comfortable after such a vicious attack on their way of life? And some of those people already lived through this once.

    "If they had some kind of protection inside the temple, maybe it could have been a very much different situation."

    No. This psycho shot three cops. If there was security, they would have been the first ones dead. It would have changed nothing. And people shouldn't need protection simply going to pray and celebrate a newborn child. We shouldn't have to live in a society where we are constantly in fear. Trump clearly has no interest in solving this complex issue, is only interested in finding easy answers, and does not belong in his current position.

    28 votes
  2. [2]
    alyaza
    Link
    still a developing situation as i'm sure the more news-following of you are aware. at this point there are eight confirmed fatalities and something like twelve people shot. this is the third major...

    still a developing situation as i'm sure the more news-following of you are aware. at this point there are eight confirmed fatalities and something like twelve people shot. this is the third major apparent hate crime or politically motivated attack this week, following an attempted mass shooting at a black church that left two people nearby dead and the attempted pipe bombing campaign against democratic officials and trump critics.

    president trump has spoken briefly on this, saying among other things that "If they had some kind of protection inside the temple, maybe it could have been a very much different situation." and that the death penalty should be "stiffened up." for crimes like this.

    this has not officially been confirmed yet by law enforcement, but the shooter has been named by media, and he is apparently a user of the free-speech oriented gab; his postings there are markedly anti-semitic and anti-trump (he thinks trump was the puppet of the jews and ZOG). he appears to be of the white nationalist/white supremacist/neo-nazi bent, and seems to believe in the QAnon conspiracy theory. the former is not surprising, given that earlier he was reported as saying something like "death to all the jews!" as he was being taken into custody.


    EDIT: slightly better wording on some stuff.

    13 votes
    1. alyaza
      Link Parent
      the death toll has now risen to at least 10, per local station KDKA. it may be either 10 or 11 at this point. AP and apparently also CBS News is saying 10 at this point; KDKA is saying 11. 4...

      the death toll has now risen to at least 10, per local station KDKA. it may be either 10 or 11 at this point. AP and apparently also CBS News is saying 10 at this point; KDKA is saying 11. 4 police officers shot in either case, it seems.

      4 votes
  3. [8]
    pleure
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    God damn this has not been a good week. I fear for what's going to happen as we get closer to midterms.

    God damn this has not been a good week. I fear for what's going to happen as we get closer to midterms.

    7 votes
    1. [7]
      alyaza
      Link Parent
      honestly i'm a lot more concerned about what happens after the midterms. we never got to see how trump intended to respond to the 2016 elections if he lost, but it's almost a lock at this point...

      honestly i'm a lot more concerned about what happens after the midterms. we never got to see how trump intended to respond to the 2016 elections if he lost, but it's almost a lock at this point that he'll be severely hampered since the GOP is likely to lose one wing of congress. will we see cries of an illegitimate election and an uptick in political violence from the far-right as a consequence? going by the past week, the answer is going to be yes, and it's going to be shit.

      3 votes
      1. [6]
        Cosmos
        Link Parent
        No it's not. Don't believe the polls. They are exactly where they were in 2016. GO VOTE!

        it's almost a lock at this point

        No it's not. Don't believe the polls. They are exactly where they were in 2016. GO VOTE!

        9 votes
        1. [4]
          alyaza
          Link Parent
          i'll take my chances, to be honest. punditry got it wrong in 2016, not the polls. national polls were on target--the people saying shit weren't. the GOP this year has about half the chance (15%)...

          No it's not. Don't believe the polls. They are exactly where they were in 2016. GO VOTE!

          i'll take my chances, to be honest. punditry got it wrong in 2016, not the polls. national polls were on target--the people saying shit weren't. the GOP this year has about half the chance (15%) they did to win the presidency (30%) according to FiveThirtyEight, and given the nature of this year, it's more likely that the polls will be off in a way that favors the democrats than in a way that favors the republicans. it's not a "lock" but statistically speaking, in ten days you're almost certainly going to have a democratic house majority.

          (also, i've already voted. you're preaching to a choir.)

          3 votes
          1. [3]
            Cosmos
            Link Parent
            Where did you get 30% from? On this day in 2016 it was at 17.8% Nothing is over until it's over.
            5 votes
            1. [2]
              alyaza
              Link Parent
              this is probably because you're operating on a day-by-day basis, and i'm not. donald was at 28.6% on election day; GOP chances this year are significantly worse than that (a whopping 15.2% chance...

              Where did you get 30% from?

              this is probably because you're operating on a day-by-day basis, and i'm not. donald was at 28.6% on election day; GOP chances this year are significantly worse than that (a whopping 15.2% chance as of today) and have been more or less the same since the beginning of september, besides a brief uptick in mid october that's effectively evaporated. nothing is over until it's over, sure, but there's objectively not much to suggest the GOP is going to keep the house on election night. democrats aren't complacent, the news cycle is against them, and their message is garbage. that's not a winning combination.

              3 votes
              1. Adys
                Link Parent
                As Nate Silver says, any election where there's a true 5-10% chance for the other party to be elected is competitive. We'll see what happens. I'd like to believe at least the house will be won but...

                As Nate Silver says, any election where there's a true 5-10% chance for the other party to be elected is competitive.

                We'll see what happens. I'd like to believe at least the house will be won but I'm not so sure.

                8 votes
        2. patience_limited
          Link Parent
          And the polls are almost meaningless, given that many congressional districts are drawn and "packed" to the point that it requires a 5 - 8% supermajority of Democratic votes to secure a party...

          And the polls are almost meaningless, given that many congressional districts are drawn and "packed" to the point that it requires a 5 - 8% supermajority of Democratic votes to secure a party majority in Congress. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-congressional-map-is-historically-biased-toward-the-gop/

          2 votes
  4. [16]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [15]
      Cosmos
      Link Parent
      This is nothing new. I was in Pittsburgh pre-Trump. Worked and lived outside the city for a while. It was just as bad then. So many confederate flags. Racist attacks at Obama. Had many roommates...

      This is nothing new. I was in Pittsburgh pre-Trump. Worked and lived outside the city for a while. It was just as bad then. So many confederate flags. Racist attacks at Obama. Had many roommates in college go on drunken
      racist rants. PA turning red in 2016 was obvious if you knew where to look.

      I also do not agree that Antifa is the right answer to this. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. Nothing good will result from stooping to their level.

      5 votes
      1. [15]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. pleure
          Link Parent
          Additionally, who else is going to oppose the fascists if not the people at large? Certainly not the police, as we've seen time and time again. Direct action works.

          Additionally, who else is going to oppose the fascists if not the people at large? Certainly not the police, as we've seen time and time again. Direct action works.

          10 votes
        2. [13]
          Cosmos
          Link Parent
          This is a good read that explains exactly why they are the same. I think we are talking about two completely different things though. I agree that doxxing is fair game. No one should ever expect...

          This is a good read that explains exactly why they are the same.

          I think we are talking about two completely different things though. I agree that doxxing is fair game. No one should ever expect zero consequences for what they say online. That's exactly what got us into this mess. But what is not ok is responding to violence with more violence. That is the point I am making.

          time and again neo-nazis themselves admit that antifa is their most effective opposition

          Do you have a source for that? Because from what I've seen, neo-Nazis don't hate antifa, they love it. Those people have done more to legitimize their cause than anyone else ever could. It provides plenty of ammo for nazis to keep playing the victim and convince everyone this is a war and they are under attack. And that only makes them stronger.

          Look at Martin Luther King. How much he accomplished without ever resorting to hatred or violence. Or look at Darryl Davis

          3 votes
          1. [5]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. [4]
              Cosmos
              Link Parent
              But MLK himself never used that gun or threatened to use it. He carried it for his own protection and had people protecting him. That is completely different. He met Malcolm X once and that was...

              MLK carried a fucking gun, was protected by people with guns, and worked in tandem with people like Malcom X and the Deacons for Defense and Justice.

              But MLK himself never used that gun or threatened to use it. He carried it for his own protection and had people protecting him. That is completely different. He met Malcolm X once and that was it. To say they worked in tandem is flat out wrong.

              Man, I really thought tildes was better than reddit and would have more intelligent discussion. Guess not.

              3 votes
              1. [2]
                Algernon_Asimov
                Link Parent
                No, Tildes will have more civil discussion than Reddit. The opinions expressed on Tildes will still include some that you dislike, disapprove of, and disagree with - which does not automatically...

                Man, I really thought tildes was better than reddit and would have more intelligent discussion. Guess not.

                No, Tildes will have more civil discussion than Reddit.

                The opinions expressed on Tildes will still include some that you dislike, disapprove of, and disagree with - which does not automatically make them less intelligent. Just different to yours.

                11 votes
                1. Cosmos
                  Link Parent
                  The lack of intelligence I was referring to was the totally ridiculous version of history this guy was trying to pass off as fact. Not opinions I disagree with.

                  The lack of intelligence I was referring to was the totally ridiculous version of history this guy was trying to pass off as fact. Not opinions I disagree with.

              2. [2]
                Comment deleted by author
                Link Parent
                1. Cosmos
                  Link Parent
                  It's not. And that's not at all what is going on. If you read the article I linked you would understand that. Antifa has repeatedly acted violently towards people simply speaking peacefully. It...

                  Why is violence unacceptable when it's in the form of community self-defense by people directly threatened by neo-nazis

                  It's not. And that's not at all what is going on. If you read the article I linked you would understand that. Antifa has repeatedly acted violently towards people simply speaking peacefully. It was not in self defense.

          2. [8]
            alyaza
            Link Parent
            well, earlier this year richard spencer literally ended his college speaking career because of anti-fascist and anti-racist demonstrations continually disrupting his events to the point where he...

            Do you have a source for that? Because from what I've seen, neo-Nazis don't hate antifa, they love it. Those people have done more to legitimize their cause than anyone else ever could. It provides plenty of ammo for nazis to keep playing the victim and convince everyone this is a war and they are under attack. And that only makes them stronger.

            well, earlier this year richard spencer literally ended his college speaking career because of anti-fascist and anti-racist demonstrations continually disrupting his events to the point where he needed right-wing militias or constant police presence to actually do anything, for one thing.

            5 votes
            1. [7]
              Cosmos
              Link Parent
              But he's still speaking, right? Just not at colleges. I fail to see how that accomplished anything. He probably only did those anyway to troll you guys.

              But he's still speaking, right? Just not at colleges. I fail to see how that accomplished anything. He probably only did those anyway to troll you guys.

              1. [6]
                alyaza
                Link Parent
                no, he's not. the bottom has actually fallen out for spencer since this happened. he's done almost nothing since he hung up his hat besides fall by the wayside and lose people. in may he was...

                no, he's not. the bottom has actually fallen out for spencer since this happened. he's done almost nothing since he hung up his hat besides fall by the wayside and lose people. in may he was begging for money and in august, he lost one of his closer followers to a resignation. he was also accused of assault earlier this week by his wife. deplatforming him has actually basically killed his brand and, given his legal disputes and general collapse in publicity, it will be probably years before he recovers from this, if he recovers at all.

                5 votes
                1. [5]
                  Cosmos
                  Link Parent
                  So then why hasn't the movement died with him? Seems like this will be nothing but a martyr among his followers.

                  So then why hasn't the movement died with him? Seems like this will be nothing but a martyr among his followers.

                  1. [4]
                    alyaza
                    Link Parent
                    because the far-right is amorphous and fairly well organized and spencer is just one highly expendable dude. if he goes down there are dozens of organizations which can take his organization's...

                    because the far-right is amorphous and fairly well organized and spencer is just one highly expendable dude. if he goes down there are dozens of organizations which can take his organization's place, dozens of people who can spout his talking points, and dozens of organizations for his followers to join which do the same things as his. expecting his movement to vanish just because of his own stupid actions feels like a naive assumption on your part.

                    6 votes
                    1. [3]
                      Cosmos
                      Link Parent
                      I don't expect that. This was my point. All the hatred, violence, and harassment directed at him accomplished absolutely nothing.

                      I don't expect that. This was my point. All the hatred, violence, and harassment directed at him accomplished absolutely nothing.

                      1 vote
                      1. alyaza
                        Link Parent
                        ...you mean other than shutting his platform down and putting him on a spiral to irrelevance, thereby preventing him from radicalizing other people? because if you think these measures are an...

                        ...you mean other than shutting his platform down and putting him on a spiral to irrelevance, thereby preventing him from radicalizing other people? because if you think these measures are an effort to de-convert people who are already white nationalists, white supremacists, and fascists, like you seem to be implying here then you're largely missing the point of them.

                        11 votes
                      2. Pugilistic
                        Link Parent
                        Coming from someone who shares your school of thought but is also having my mind slowly changed on the subject; it seems like Antifa is at least effective at breaking up nazi rhetoric and...

                        Coming from someone who shares your school of thought but is also having my mind slowly changed on the subject; it seems like Antifa is at least effective at breaking up nazi rhetoric and propaganda. This stops the spread of radical ideas, but fails to get to the level of someone like MLK or Darryl Davis where the extremists are actually giving up on violence and altering their own views.

                        I still think we need to be very careful with Antifa as many of them have a political agenda that goes beyond pure anti fascism, but if they are effective at stifling this neo-nazi flame then so be it. Let them roam the streets. We just need to watch what happens after the fact because historically the radical left has been just as dangerous as the radical right.

                        However in Antifa's defense they are a pretty diverse group with different methods of thinking. I feel comfortable knowing it's not a single ideology but rather a bunch of different ideologues coming together to fight a common enemy. Surely the anarchists and communists can't agree on too much more other than the fact that nazis are evil right? I don't know if we need to fear a hostile takeover by the left as they haven't committed the same atrocities we've seen committed by white nationalists. At least not yet.

                        3 votes
  5. HutchinsonianDemon
    Link
    I've got two friends who are Jewish and they have a lot of friends in this area so let me tell you yesterday was really tense for us waiting to hear from his friends. I only got the worry...

    I've got two friends who are Jewish and they have a lot of friends in this area so let me tell you yesterday was really tense for us waiting to hear from his friends. I only got the worry second-hand; I can't imagine what it'd be like if this sort of thing happened to me.

    2 votes