Another student in the front row is making the O.K. sign with his right forefinger and thumb, a hand gesture that has been adopted by white nationalists.
I mean... it's not a white nationalist symbol by default. My mom has always done it when we're hanging out and being a Hispanic woman, I'm pretty sure she's not a white nationalist. Used in...
Exemplary
I mean... it's not a white nationalist symbol by default. My mom has always done it when we're hanging out and being a Hispanic woman, I'm pretty sure she's not a white nationalist. Used in certain contexts it can be, but the entire point of it was to turn an innocuous hand gesture into something controversial, to muddy the waters. The whole point of stuff like that is so that white nationalists can do the symbol in public to each other, and people in "the know" will realize what they mean. Normal people will just assume that they're doing the OK gesture, and leftists who are clued in will call it out. Once that happens, they just claim they were giving the OK gesture, and the leftists look like lunatics.
You can't definitively say 100% whether a given instance of someone flashing that gesture is using it in its white nationalist capacity or not, same goes for pepe. In this instance, you're probably safe to assume he is given the context of the photo, but you can never be sure. That's why it's effective.
You're right. It's not. But what matters is context. It's one thing to mess with your friends with the whole punch-them-in-the-arm-when-they-look-down thing, or to share it around as a meme...
it's not a white nationalist symbol by default.
You're right. It's not. But what matters is context. It's one thing to mess with your friends with the whole punch-them-in-the-arm-when-they-look-down thing, or to share it around as a meme related to the aforementioned, or to use it as a genuine "okay" when responding to someone. No one is going to think twice about those instances.
The issue is when you're e.g. in a Nazi rally or randomly flashing it for no reason whatsoever. The context completely changes.
It's analogous to the difference in your tone of voice when saying "you're such an idiot". That phrase can indicate anything from condescension, to exasperation, to anger, to endearment (e.g. jokingly calling your SO an idiot when they do something silly), all depending on the intonation you use.
You are of course almost certainly correct, but that tiny seed of doubt is what makes the thing so valuable. If you went to punish that kid, he would say "WHAT, SO THE OK SYMBOL IS RACIST NOW?"...
If some kid is in a crowd of people all doing nazi salutes and throws it up with a smirk, it is guaranteed he knows what it means and should be called out as such.
You are of course almost certainly correct, but that tiny seed of doubt is what makes the thing so valuable. If you went to punish that kid, he would say "WHAT, SO THE OK SYMBOL IS RACIST NOW?" and no, technically it isn't, and if you wanted to be totally fair to him and give him the complete benefit of the doubt, you couldn't for sure say if he meant it to be racist or not, even though he almost certainly did.
This is pretty much the entire reason it caught on. It's such a widespread, common, and innocuous symbol on its own that repurposing it makes it exceedingly easy to gaslight anyone who calls you...
This is pretty much the entire reason it caught on. It's such a widespread, common, and innocuous symbol on its own that repurposing it makes it exceedingly easy to gaslight anyone who calls you out on it. It's the whole "plausible deniability" angle.
This seems like a game the alt-right/neo-fascists love to play. It's even more insidious when they insinuate themselves with public figures, because it becomes impossible to know how much that...
This seems like a game the alt-right/neo-fascists love to play. It's even more insidious when they insinuate themselves with public figures, because it becomes impossible to know how much that person is actively appealing to fascists rather than being used by fascists. I have no doubt that Trump is winking and nodding at his racist followers (when he isn't calling them with a bullhorn), but when it comes to certain "public intellectuals" I'm not so sure. I think that some of them end up so identified with their followers that it's impossible to know where their beliefs end and their influence begins.
Oh, it's absolutely a game they like to play. If you're not aware of it already, look up the term "dog-whistle politics". Racism itself has gradually evolved from whipping enslaved people of color...
Oh, it's absolutely a game they like to play. If you're not aware of it already, look up the term "dog-whistle politics".
Racism itself has gradually evolved from whipping enslaved people of color to death, to segregation, to being denied the right to vote using methods that were technically legal (e.g. the "grandfather clause" and "literacy tests"), to what we've had for a while now with people crying "welfare!" and "war on terror!", and finally to our current regression back into outward, shameless, direct racist statements. Once the racists are forced back under their rocks, they'll go right back to their dog-whistling about welfare, crime, and terrorism.
Saw the Wisconsin and High School tag and was worried it would have been my old highschool lol. Not surprising coming from Baraboo or any other Wisconsin highschool outside of...
Saw the Wisconsin and High School tag and was worried it would have been my old highschool lol.
Not surprising coming from Baraboo or any other Wisconsin highschool outside of Madison/Milwaukee/Green Bay metro areas, honestly the most of the people there have maybe one or two minorities in their school class and god knows what their parents teach them. Rural Wisconsin might as well be the old south... I live in South Carolina now and have seen less racism here, which surprised me.
Yeah, Wisconsin has a few pockets that seem to be a bit better, but we're just as racist and have just about as bad of a racial history as the rest of the country. Anyone from the upper Midwest...
Yeah, Wisconsin has a few pockets that seem to be a bit better, but we're just as racist and have just about as bad of a racial history as the rest of the country. Anyone from the upper Midwest not familiar with this history should really look up Sundown Towns...maybe see if your own community was one. It's nasty and still very much has an effect on how our region operates to this day.
The only reason I have any positivity about the region when it comes to race is that I feel like the racism that we have here has a much larger element of ignorance attached. There's a whole lot of white kids here who will say awful things about black people and haven't even met a black person before. I found that even getting exchange or transfer students who weren't white significantly changed how students thought and acted about other races. (Of course we're not immune or separate from the racism that exists throughout the country, but I think a lot more can be done simply with education and exposure than would work in the south or something)
I also think we're more likely to have the kind of thing you see here happen. On top of the actual racial hatred that I'm sure is part of this, I think the lack of experience people growing up here have with seeing others genuinely hurt or pushing back against awful things amplifies what they'll do just for the sake of an edgy joke. Even if you're not thinking about hate, it's easy to do what you think is funny if you've never even met a Jewish person and seen firsthand how that can hurt (and to be clear they know better, but there's a difference between knowing and feeling it in a way that guides action).
I kind of see these kids as victims of a school/administration, It's so easy to get influenced at such a young age and if it's your whole world: friends, teachers, probably parents, idk how easy...
With any luck, hopefully these nazi saluters all get rejected from college.
I kind of see these kids as victims of a school/administration, It's so easy to get influenced at such a young age and if it's your whole world: friends, teachers, probably parents, idk how easy it would be to stand up to it, especially if they are given strong one-sided arguments.
This tweet kind of shows an example with a kid not doing the salute and getting bullied by his community.
Not really sure what the response should be for collage admins, definitely not a blanket rejection, I would imagine a lot would depend on the personal letter. On the flip side, sadly there are probably collages where it would be a positive.
Well that's the test for me. If the history lesson is as brutal as it should be, and they still think it's funny, then these are terrible people. If the lessons are lacking, then it's a terrible...
Well that's the test for me. If the history lesson is as brutal as it should be, and they still think it's funny, then these are terrible people. If the lessons are lacking, then it's a terrible school/town. No matter what, the parents are the ones I blame much more than a bunch of teenagers.
This, from the bottom of the article is quite relevant. Probably should have the parents attend the lessons as well.
This, from the bottom of the article is quite relevant.
On Twitter, the Auschwitz-Birkenau Memorial and Museum in Poland responded to the controversy by directing the school district’s attention to its online lesson plans, which include resources on the consequences of normalizing symbols of hate.
Probably should have the parents attend the lessons as well.
I'm really not sure why it shouldn't be at most colleges. Honestly, all colleges. I get the argument about peer pressure, the community and school administration, but they're also practically...
Not really sure what the response should be for collage admins, definitely not a blanket rejection
I'm really not sure why it shouldn't be at most colleges. Honestly, all colleges.
I get the argument about peer pressure, the community and school administration, but they're also practically adults, these aren't children. The fact that one (sadly one), didn't give in, didn't give the salute, is kinda the perfect example that peer pressure does not absolve you of your choices.
Imagine a heartfelt personal letter that talks about the struggle of growing up in a school system that normalized that kind of behaviour. The obstacles faced when trying to voice counterpoint,...
Imagine a heartfelt personal letter that talks about the struggle of growing up in a school system that normalized that kind of behaviour. The obstacles faced when trying to voice counterpoint, particularly bullying or threats of physical violence from your peers. A simple salute at a picture seems like a pretty small gesture to make if you're just trying to fit in. Not to mention what the realisation would have been like when you stop and learn about what actually happened, the horror of the whole thing. It's easy to say you would be brave when you're not faced with that kind of situation, going against your teacher, peers, and parents.
Something that showed growth, maturity and reflection on poor past decisions. Those kinds of qualities are rare in teenagers and frankly, that's someone you would want as part of your student body.
It absolutely is the administration's fault, the students should not get pushed by something so indiscriminate as a blanket ban. Especially when individual cases can be so varied.
As a bit of further reading check out this article on British expats living in Germany pre-war, it showcases all sorts of people making the decision to heil or not. This extract is of a young student driving in his car and saluting everyone in sight, like 'a game'. With the education these kids got at school it's likely they knew as little as the driver about what the Nazis were really about.
“I enjoyed it. It was a game. And the youths and children in the villages enjoyed it. They stood by the roads and in the fields with right arms solemnly stretched towards the enemy’s motor car and laughed when the enemy appeared a friend … My right arm grew stiff with replying. I prayed for a device like a direction indicator, which would flap aloft a metal hand while I got on with the job of driving.”
A good letter could definitely help and I get we're talking hypotheticals since at this time I don't think there's been punishments or decisions rendered, but I feel like you're not taking into...
A good letter could definitely help and I get we're talking hypotheticals since at this time I don't think there's been punishments or decisions rendered, but I feel like you're not taking into account that these are high school juniors, not kids.
A simple salute at a picture seems like a pretty small gesture to make if you're just trying to fit in. Not to mention what the realisation would have been like when you stop and learn about what actually happened,
There should be no way a high schooler would not know about the Nazis or WWII. In my schooling we covered it extensively in middle school, if not sooner (although if we did I don't remember). The fact that they're doing it at all seemingly precludes the idea that they don't know what it means.
This is also way different then someone in the 30s, years before the horrors of the Holocaust were well known.
And lets not forget that one student still chose not to do it. Because he knew. He did what was right, even though it wasn't easy. And colleges typically don't look for students choosing "easy" over "right."
Writing an admissions essay reflecting on poor past choices comes across less as mature and more as "I knowingly made a bad decision and hope that writing a cursory apology essay will mitigate the repercussions that I don't want to suffer."
I'll agree that maybe there shouldn't be an outright blanket ban. I concede peer-pressure is a powerful force. But I disagree with the idea that these students are ignorant of the significance of the salute, or that it excuses their behavior.
I used the 30s analogy because it was known the Nazis hated the Jews, Blacks, gays etc. their views were not a secret, they had concentration camps open and where even offering tours. My point...
I used the 30s analogy because it was known the Nazis hated the Jews, Blacks, gays etc. their views were not a secret, they had concentration camps open and where even offering tours. My point being just knowing the Nazi agenda is not enough. It's easy to imagine an apologetic history teacher crafting a lesson that completely flips the script, couple that with this age of 'fake news' and it's not hard to see how you could outright not believe what happened during the final years of the war, or be so misinformed as to not fully grasp it's consequences. 'one death is a tragedy, 1000 is a statistic', it's a grim quote but rings true, you need to spend time learning about the individual tragedies to even come close to grasping the magnitude of what happened, a biased teacher or parent has so much influence in this.
But as you say this is all so much supposition, I have no idea what their history lesson was like or what they do or don't know.
As kind of a meta point, the fact that the holocaust happened I think is enough proof that 'just be brave and stand up for your principles' is not enough. Things like the Stanford Prison Experiment and the vast research that happened after the war, trying to figure out just how the hell something like this could happen, seems like enough proof.
You can look at the fact that just one kid stood up as proof of just how difficult it is to do so, he was no doubt not the only one opposed to it, maybe I'm reading too much into it but just looking at their body language many of them seem hesitant.
In the end I'm not trying to excuse their behaviour, think up a get out a jail free card. Just that under certain circumstances I can understand it, especially if they show introspection and a willingness to change.
Do they really though? I can only imagine what dumbassery myself and everyone I knew was up to at age 17. Perhaps, just perhaps, we shouldn't ruin people's lives over a single poor decision, lest...
They are all ~17 years old and should absolutely know better than to do a nazi salute and cheer for it.
Do they really though? I can only imagine what dumbassery myself and everyone I knew was up to at age 17. Perhaps, just perhaps, we shouldn't ruin people's lives over a single poor decision, lest we ourselves make a bad decision and have that same judgement passed on us.
Maybe a more meaningful outcome would be for these students to spend some serious time studying the holocaust, visiting Jewish people in the area, and maybe doing a little community service.
Context is key. When almost 60 people around you are giving the Nazi salute, you're not going to get the benefit of the doubt for flipping the OK sign.
Context is key. When almost 60 people around you are giving the Nazi salute, you're not going to get the benefit of the doubt for flipping the OK sign.
but that's not the OK sign --- that's circle game. The OK sign is inverted with three fingers up to make a W I do think that the photo itself is in poor taste, but the photographer himself claims...
but that's not the OK sign --- that's circle game. The OK sign is inverted with three fingers up to make a W
I do think that the photo itself is in poor taste, but the photographer himself claims that it was not meant to be a nazi salute --- whether this is true or not, who knows, but his response seems logical unless the community is predominantly supportive of the white nationalist agenda.
ninja edit: I'm not defending anyone with this --- but this feels blown out of proportion.
my god... maybe I'm wrong about this one -- https://twitter.com/tannenbaumr/status/1062323141752561664 Overall, I think the media and internet is too quick to call people nazis. But yeah, in this...
Overall, I think the media and internet is too quick to call people nazis. But yeah, in this case it looks like some in this community may be on board with these twisted ideas. That kid doing the OK sign has it upside down, so if he does support those ideas, he's an idiot for getting their hand symbol wrong.
Well what do you think a kid getting bullied at that school would do when standing for a photo like this, it's gonna take some stones to not salute and fit in.
Well what do you think a kid getting bullied at that school would do when standing for a photo like this, it's gonna take some stones to not salute and fit in.
I thought that was just a joke made up by 4chan.
It got Poe's Law'd in real life.
I mean... it's not a white nationalist symbol by default. My mom has always done it when we're hanging out and being a Hispanic woman, I'm pretty sure she's not a white nationalist. Used in certain contexts it can be, but the entire point of it was to turn an innocuous hand gesture into something controversial, to muddy the waters. The whole point of stuff like that is so that white nationalists can do the symbol in public to each other, and people in "the know" will realize what they mean. Normal people will just assume that they're doing the OK gesture, and leftists who are clued in will call it out. Once that happens, they just claim they were giving the OK gesture, and the leftists look like lunatics.
You can't definitively say 100% whether a given instance of someone flashing that gesture is using it in its white nationalist capacity or not, same goes for pepe. In this instance, you're probably safe to assume he is given the context of the photo, but you can never be sure. That's why it's effective.
You're right. It's not. But what matters is context. It's one thing to mess with your friends with the whole punch-them-in-the-arm-when-they-look-down thing, or to share it around as a meme related to the aforementioned, or to use it as a genuine "okay" when responding to someone. No one is going to think twice about those instances.
The issue is when you're e.g. in a Nazi rally or randomly flashing it for no reason whatsoever. The context completely changes.
It's analogous to the difference in your tone of voice when saying "you're such an idiot". That phrase can indicate anything from condescension, to exasperation, to anger, to endearment (e.g. jokingly calling your SO an idiot when they do something silly), all depending on the intonation you use.
You are of course almost certainly correct, but that tiny seed of doubt is what makes the thing so valuable. If you went to punish that kid, he would say "WHAT, SO THE OK SYMBOL IS RACIST NOW?" and no, technically it isn't, and if you wanted to be totally fair to him and give him the complete benefit of the doubt, you couldn't for sure say if he meant it to be racist or not, even though he almost certainly did.
This is pretty much the entire reason it caught on. It's such a widespread, common, and innocuous symbol on its own that repurposing it makes it exceedingly easy to gaslight anyone who calls you out on it. It's the whole "plausible deniability" angle.
This seems like a game the alt-right/neo-fascists love to play. It's even more insidious when they insinuate themselves with public figures, because it becomes impossible to know how much that person is actively appealing to fascists rather than being used by fascists. I have no doubt that Trump is winking and nodding at his racist followers (when he isn't calling them with a bullhorn), but when it comes to certain "public intellectuals" I'm not so sure. I think that some of them end up so identified with their followers that it's impossible to know where their beliefs end and their influence begins.
Oh, it's absolutely a game they like to play. If you're not aware of it already, look up the term "dog-whistle politics".
Racism itself has gradually evolved from whipping enslaved people of color to death, to segregation, to being denied the right to vote using methods that were technically legal (e.g. the "grandfather clause" and "literacy tests"), to what we've had for a while now with people crying "welfare!" and "war on terror!", and finally to our current regression back into outward, shameless, direct racist statements. Once the racists are forced back under their rocks, they'll go right back to their dog-whistling about welfare, crime, and terrorism.
Saw the Wisconsin and High School tag and was worried it would have been my old highschool lol.
Not surprising coming from Baraboo or any other Wisconsin highschool outside of Madison/Milwaukee/Green Bay metro areas, honestly the most of the people there have maybe one or two minorities in their school class and god knows what their parents teach them. Rural Wisconsin might as well be the old south... I live in South Carolina now and have seen less racism here, which surprised me.
Yeah, Wisconsin has a few pockets that seem to be a bit better, but we're just as racist and have just about as bad of a racial history as the rest of the country. Anyone from the upper Midwest not familiar with this history should really look up Sundown Towns...maybe see if your own community was one. It's nasty and still very much has an effect on how our region operates to this day.
The only reason I have any positivity about the region when it comes to race is that I feel like the racism that we have here has a much larger element of ignorance attached. There's a whole lot of white kids here who will say awful things about black people and haven't even met a black person before. I found that even getting exchange or transfer students who weren't white significantly changed how students thought and acted about other races. (Of course we're not immune or separate from the racism that exists throughout the country, but I think a lot more can be done simply with education and exposure than would work in the south or something)
I also think we're more likely to have the kind of thing you see here happen. On top of the actual racial hatred that I'm sure is part of this, I think the lack of experience people growing up here have with seeing others genuinely hurt or pushing back against awful things amplifies what they'll do just for the sake of an edgy joke. Even if you're not thinking about hate, it's easy to do what you think is funny if you've never even met a Jewish person and seen firsthand how that can hurt (and to be clear they know better, but there's a difference between knowing and feeling it in a way that guides action).
I kind of see these kids as victims of a school/administration, It's so easy to get influenced at such a young age and if it's your whole world: friends, teachers, probably parents, idk how easy it would be to stand up to it, especially if they are given strong one-sided arguments.
This tweet kind of shows an example with a kid not doing the salute and getting bullied by his community.
Not really sure what the response should be for collage admins, definitely not a blanket rejection, I would imagine a lot would depend on the personal letter. On the flip side, sadly there are probably collages where it would be a positive.
I would love to know what the history curriculum on WWII is in that school.
Yeah it's gotta be all kinds of twisted.
Well that's the test for me. If the history lesson is as brutal as it should be, and they still think it's funny, then these are terrible people. If the lessons are lacking, then it's a terrible school/town. No matter what, the parents are the ones I blame much more than a bunch of teenagers.
This, from the bottom of the article is quite relevant.
Probably should have the parents attend the lessons as well.
I'm really not sure why it shouldn't be at most colleges. Honestly, all colleges.
I get the argument about peer pressure, the community and school administration, but they're also practically adults, these aren't children. The fact that one (sadly one), didn't give in, didn't give the salute, is kinda the perfect example that peer pressure does not absolve you of your choices.
Imagine a heartfelt personal letter that talks about the struggle of growing up in a school system that normalized that kind of behaviour. The obstacles faced when trying to voice counterpoint, particularly bullying or threats of physical violence from your peers. A simple salute at a picture seems like a pretty small gesture to make if you're just trying to fit in. Not to mention what the realisation would have been like when you stop and learn about what actually happened, the horror of the whole thing. It's easy to say you would be brave when you're not faced with that kind of situation, going against your teacher, peers, and parents.
Something that showed growth, maturity and reflection on poor past decisions. Those kinds of qualities are rare in teenagers and frankly, that's someone you would want as part of your student body.
It absolutely is the administration's fault, the students should not get pushed by something so indiscriminate as a blanket ban. Especially when individual cases can be so varied.
As a bit of further reading check out this article on British expats living in Germany pre-war, it showcases all sorts of people making the decision to heil or not. This extract is of a young student driving in his car and saluting everyone in sight, like 'a game'. With the education these kids got at school it's likely they knew as little as the driver about what the Nazis were really about.
A good letter could definitely help and I get we're talking hypotheticals since at this time I don't think there's been punishments or decisions rendered, but I feel like you're not taking into account that these are high school juniors, not kids.
There should be no way a high schooler would not know about the Nazis or WWII. In my schooling we covered it extensively in middle school, if not sooner (although if we did I don't remember). The fact that they're doing it at all seemingly precludes the idea that they don't know what it means.
This is also way different then someone in the 30s, years before the horrors of the Holocaust were well known.
And lets not forget that one student still chose not to do it. Because he knew. He did what was right, even though it wasn't easy. And colleges typically don't look for students choosing "easy" over "right."
Writing an admissions essay reflecting on poor past choices comes across less as mature and more as "I knowingly made a bad decision and hope that writing a cursory apology essay will mitigate the repercussions that I don't want to suffer."
I'll agree that maybe there shouldn't be an outright blanket ban. I concede peer-pressure is a powerful force. But I disagree with the idea that these students are ignorant of the significance of the salute, or that it excuses their behavior.
I used the 30s analogy because it was known the Nazis hated the Jews, Blacks, gays etc. their views were not a secret, they had concentration camps open and where even offering tours. My point being just knowing the Nazi agenda is not enough. It's easy to imagine an apologetic history teacher crafting a lesson that completely flips the script, couple that with this age of 'fake news' and it's not hard to see how you could outright not believe what happened during the final years of the war, or be so misinformed as to not fully grasp it's consequences. 'one death is a tragedy, 1000 is a statistic', it's a grim quote but rings true, you need to spend time learning about the individual tragedies to even come close to grasping the magnitude of what happened, a biased teacher or parent has so much influence in this.
But as you say this is all so much supposition, I have no idea what their history lesson was like or what they do or don't know.
As kind of a meta point, the fact that the holocaust happened I think is enough proof that 'just be brave and stand up for your principles' is not enough. Things like the Stanford Prison Experiment and the vast research that happened after the war, trying to figure out just how the hell something like this could happen, seems like enough proof.
You can look at the fact that just one kid stood up as proof of just how difficult it is to do so, he was no doubt not the only one opposed to it, maybe I'm reading too much into it but just looking at their body language many of them seem hesitant.
In the end I'm not trying to excuse their behaviour, think up a get out a jail free card. Just that under certain circumstances I can understand it, especially if they show introspection and a willingness to change.
Do they really though? I can only imagine what dumbassery myself and everyone I knew was up to at age 17. Perhaps, just perhaps, we shouldn't ruin people's lives over a single poor decision, lest we ourselves make a bad decision and have that same judgement passed on us.
Maybe a more meaningful outcome would be for these students to spend some serious time studying the holocaust, visiting Jewish people in the area, and maybe doing a little community service.
I’m not defending anyone with this — but it looks more like the kid is doing the circle game than some white supremacy hand sign.
Context is key. When almost 60 people around you are giving the Nazi salute, you're not going to get the benefit of the doubt for flipping the OK sign.
but that's not the OK sign --- that's circle game. The OK sign is inverted with three fingers up to make a
WI do think that the photo itself is in poor taste, but the photographer himself claims that it was not meant to be a nazi salute --- whether this is true or not, who knows, but his response seems logical unless the community is predominantly supportive of the white nationalist agenda.
ninja edit: I'm not defending anyone with this --- but this feels blown out of proportion.
my god... maybe I'm wrong about this one -- https://twitter.com/tannenbaumr/status/1062323141752561664
Overall, I think the media and internet is too quick to call people nazis. But yeah, in this case it looks like some in this community may be on board with these twisted ideas. That kid doing the OK sign has it upside down, so if he does support those ideas, he's an idiot for getting their hand symbol wrong.
For the girls' photo, the caption says they got 3rd in their competition, so I'm willing to let that one slide ha.
Well what do you think a kid getting bullied at that school would do when standing for a photo like this, it's gonna take some stones to not salute and fit in.