19 votes

President Maduro (Venezuela): An open letter to the people of the United States

18 comments

  1. [16]
    Gaywallet
    Link
    It's concerning to me that my reaction to this letter is I used to be patriotic about my country despite it's fallacies. In my age I've lost that enthusiasm and it bothers me. If I'm so cynical...

    It's concerning to me that my reaction to this letter is

    Great, what new inane thing are we doing now? Our country is a gigantic mess and we're keen on destroying the world in every new way possible, let's just heap some more shit onto the pile of garbage we decided to light on fire and blame everyone else.

    I used to be patriotic about my country despite it's fallacies. In my age I've lost that enthusiasm and it bothers me. If I'm so cynical about the US, that is going to make me more wary and hesitant to adopt or even promote changes that might actually do some good.

    10 votes
    1. [14]
      babypuncher
      Link Parent
      If it makes you feel any better, our recognition of Juan Guaidó as interim president of Venezuela is a move supported by our European allies. For once, it's not Trump going batshit insane. His...

      If it makes you feel any better, our recognition of Juan Guaidó as interim president of Venezuela is a move supported by our European allies. For once, it's not Trump going batshit insane. His lack of commentary about it on Twitter tells me he probably doesn't even know it's happening.

      12 votes
      1. [13]
        alyaza
        Link Parent
        their recognition is kinda stupid, though. the smart idea with maduro would be to call elections instead of plunging the country into probable civil war. maduro barely won in 2013 in significantly...

        If it makes you feel any better, our recognition of Juan Guaidó as interim president of Venezuela is a move supported by our European allies.

        their recognition is kinda stupid, though. the smart idea with maduro would be to call elections instead of plunging the country into probable civil war. maduro barely won in 2013 in significantly more favourable conditions. if he's really that unpopular democratically toppling him should be easy, because Guaido has not been elected by anybody but himself, basically

        7 votes
        1. [6]
          my_mo_is_lurk
          Link Parent
          Their recognition of Guaidó is not stupid. Guaidó was initially recognized by the OSA which is primarily LatAm countries. The Lima group, also LatAm countries, came out itself, independent of the...
          • Exemplary

          Their recognition of Guaidó is not stupid. Guaidó was initially recognized by the OSA which is primarily LatAm countries. The Lima group, also LatAm countries, came out itself, independent of the OSA, backing Guaidó.. And all of this before the US joined in backing Guaidó. It wasn't until much later, and after deliberation, that the EU came out (mostly) in support of Guaidó. And EVEN THEN, several of the EU countries, like Austria WAITED before backing Guaidó to give Maduro a chance to call for elections. He didn't. So their recognition is anything but "kinda stupid."

          Secondly, regarding calling for elections...that is exactly what Guaidó's aim is. He isn't declaring himself president, but rather interim or "caretaker" President while Maduro steps down / is removed and new elections are called. It's kind of hard to find the actual source for Guaidós plans because there's so much noise around this subject, but here's France effectively saying that Guaidó has the power to call for such elections.

          Finally, it's disingenuous to say that Guaidó wasn't elected by anybody. He was elected to parliament by his constituents, and then parliament elected him to be president of that government body. Kind of analogous to, say, the Majority Leader in the House of representatives. Mind you, this is the same government body that Maduro tried to strip all power away from after he lost his majority in it. Furthermore, there is a legitimate claim for the president of parliament to assume this caretaker position as Maduro's past elections have been deemed as illegitimate by literally everybody who doesn't benefit from the narcostate.

          20 votes
          1. [4]
            alyaza
            Link Parent
            incredibly wild idea: this sounds like a problem you could solve by calling a democratic election between guaido and maduro as opposed to just recognising one of them on dubious grounds when it's...

            incredibly wild idea: this sounds like a problem you could solve by calling a democratic election between guaido and maduro as opposed to just recognising one of them on dubious grounds when it's not clear that anybody actually wants or wanted guaido (and he was virtually unknown to venezuelans until he declared himself president) and maduro allegedly rigged the last election

            plunging countries into likely civil warfare doesn't get less stupid because someone rigged an election and now someone else is claiming to be the legitimate president on dubious grounds

            3 votes
            1. my_mo_is_lurk
              Link Parent
              Incredibly good tip: don't use sass unless you have a solid argument that hasn't been proven wrong in the comment you're replying to. What part of "And EVEN THEN, several of the EU countries, like...

              Incredibly good tip: don't use sass unless you have a solid argument that hasn't been proven wrong in the comment you're replying to.

              this sounds like a problem you could solve by calling a democratic election between guaido and maduro as opposed to just recognising one of them on dubious grounds

              What part of "And EVEN THEN, several of the EU countries, like Austria WAITED before backing Guaidó to give Maduro a chance to call for elections. He didn't." did you not understand? Several countries literally gave Maduro a chance to call for elections before recognizing either man as legitimate ruler. Since he didn't, but Guaidó is, they're backing Guaidó in the hopes that if he succeeds there will be democratic elections.

              13 votes
            2. Tang_Un
              Link Parent
              Guaido has declared himself interim president with a goal of holding new elections, no ?

              Guaido has declared himself interim president with a goal of holding new elections, no ?

              7 votes
            3. psi
              Link Parent
              Guiado is the democratically elected president. At least, he is in the sense that his appointment by the parliament was constitutional, and the parliament was democratically elected. An election...
              1. Guiado is the democratically elected president. At least, he is in the sense that his appointment by the parliament was constitutional, and the parliament was democratically elected.

              2. An election happened just last year, but the opposition was banned from running. Calling for a democratic election between Guaido and Maduro seems rather daft given that Maduro is fine with subverting democracy.

              5 votes
          2. Filbert
            Link Parent
            That's the same line that has been used in the past. If that is truly his intent then he should be making those steps now. Instead he's executed a coup. I'll ask you how many coup's have lead to a...

            He isn't declaring himself president, but rather interim or "caretaker" President while Maduro steps down

            That's the same line that has been used in the past. If that is truly his intent then he should be making those steps now. Instead he's executed a coup. I'll ask you how many coup's have lead to a peaceful transition of power to a better democracy?

            2 votes
        2. [5]
          arghdos
          Link Parent
          Maduro did just win an election in 2018 that was boycotted by the opposition leaders (and as a result had ~46% turnout as opposed to ~80% turnout in the two elections before that).

          Maduro did just win an election in 2018 that was boycotted by the opposition leaders (and as a result had ~46% turnout as opposed to ~80% turnout in the two elections before that).

          4 votes
          1. [4]
            my_mo_is_lurk
            Link Parent
            The election has been called fraudulent both internally and by the international community because Maduro used all sorts of undemocratic, dictatorial hackery to make sure the opposition didn't...

            The election has been called fraudulent both internally and by the international community because Maduro used all sorts of undemocratic, dictatorial hackery to make sure the opposition didn't stand a chance. This is from your second link:

            The electoral authorities banned the largest opposition political parties from taking part in the election, and key politicians were barred from running. Brutal repression of anti-government protests, and the arrests of many activists and leaders also weakened the opposition.

            ...

            Electoral authorities also moved up the election to May, although it is traditionally held in December, allowing little time for the opposition to organize and campaign. They even eliminated the requirement that voters dip a finger in indelible ink, which is used to keep people from voting more than once.

            For more info on the political disqualifications, have a wiki link.

            11 votes
            1. [2]
              arghdos
              Link Parent
              I did try to indicate that the election was pretty widely questioned at the time, but thanks for doing a more thorough job!

              I did try to indicate that the election was pretty widely questioned at the time, but thanks for doing a more thorough job!

              6 votes
              1. my_mo_is_lurk
                Link Parent
                Ahh, I see! I read your comment as an indictment of the opposition. I mean, they are definitely not the brightest crayons in the box, but there's a lot of really shady shit that happened that...

                Ahh, I see! I read your comment as an indictment of the opposition. I mean, they are definitely not the brightest crayons in the box, but there's a lot of really shady shit that happened that does't really get brought up (heck, you have to read halfway into the article to even find any hint of it).

                6 votes
            2. harrygibus
              Link Parent
              I believe the opposition party that was banned was the one involved in the last coup attempt.

              I believe the opposition party that was banned was the one involved in the last coup attempt.

        3. babypuncher
          Link Parent
          That is more or less what they are doing. The problem is, who is going to run that election? Certainly not Maduro, he would just scoff at calls for a new election as the opposition being sore...

          That is more or less what they are doing. The problem is, who is going to run that election? Certainly not Maduro, he would just scoff at calls for a new election as the opposition being sore losers. Someone needs to be recognized as "in charge" who will actually run an election.

          We can't just march into Venezuela with our military and hold a new election for them.

          3 votes
    2. determinism
      Link Parent
      There was a pretty interesting AMA on the subreddit /r/BreadTube by Dr. Alan MacLeod a few weeks ago....

      There was a pretty interesting AMA on the subreddit /r/BreadTube by Dr. Alan MacLeod a few weeks ago.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/ak1wtu/hello_im_dr_alan_macleod_i_have_studied_venezuela/

      I felt like the responses in that thread contributed to my better understanding of the situation. I've also noticed that there is very little nuance coming out of the more prominent media sources. Even wikipedia seems to have a fairly liberal pro-Guiado bias. Most notably from the media, I don't hear any discussion about the role that US sanctions have played in the economic crisis or criticism of the obvious motives for US intervention.

      11 votes
  2. [2]
    arama
    Link
    Did I miss something big? As far as I remember no one has actually engaged Venezuela militarily. I remember there being talks about it being an option, but not that anyone actually did it.

    The political intolerance towards the Venezuelan Bolivarian model and the desires for our immense oil resources, minerals, and other great riches, has prompted an international coalition headed by the US government to commit the serious insanity of militarily attacking Venezuela under the false excuse of a non-existent humanitarian crisis.

    Did I miss something big? As far as I remember no one has actually engaged Venezuela militarily. I remember there being talks about it being an option, but not that anyone actually did it.

    4 votes
    1. Filbert
      Link Parent
      Guaidó claimed the Presidency, within minutes the US recognized his claim. The US has placed sanctions, frozen assets, even some claims about sending in arms, offered financial and food aid to...

      Guaidó claimed the Presidency, within minutes the US recognized his claim. The US has placed sanctions, frozen assets, even some claims about sending in arms, offered financial and food aid to Guaidó.

      So, currently no direct military involvement but soft support to undermine the government.

      4 votes