4 votes

Israeli Defence Force takes responsibility for deaths of 17 militants and 6 civilians in recent operations in Gaza.

17 comments

  1. [9]
    alyaza Link
    i'm pretty uninterested in this as a whole so this is probably going to be my only comment here, but i'd just like to note, like in the original thread on recent israeli operations in gaza, that...

    i'm pretty uninterested in this as a whole so this is probably going to be my only comment here, but i'd just like to note, like in the original thread on recent israeli operations in gaza, that the IDF as a combatant in all of these exchanges will always have a vested interest in downplaying total civilian fatalities and potentially because of that fact, their numbers in this respect are pretty much always lower than any other estimate of fatalities (whether it be from palestinian organizations, international watchdogs, journalistic outlets, or supranational bodies like the UN). they also tend to make higher-end estimates of militant fatalities than these groups than any of those organizations.

    here are, for example, the estimates for the 2008-9 Gaza War:

    Total killed: 1,417 (PCHR), 1,391 (B'Tselem), 1,166 (IDF)
    Militants and police officers: 491* (255 police officers, 236 fighters) (PCHR); 600* (B'Tselem); 709 (IDF), 600–700 (Hamas)
    Civilians: 926 (PCHR); 759 (B'Tselem); 295 (IDF)

    the estimates for 2012's Operation Pillar of Defense:

    120 combatants killed
    101 combatants killed (ITIC claim)
    62 combatants killed (B'Tselem claim)
    Palestinian civilian losses:
    105 killed , 971 wounded (Palestinian claim)
    57 killed (Israeli claim)
    103 killed (UN preliminary estimate)
    68 killed (ITIC claim)
    87 killed (B'Tselem claim)

    and the estimates for the 2014 Gaza War:

    Hamas GHM: 2,310 killed, 10,626 wounded (70% civilians)
    UN HRC: 2,251 killed (65% civilians)
    Israel MFA: 2,125 killed (36% civilians, 44% combatants, 20% uncategorized males aged 16–50)

    notice the pattern. it's possible that in some of the smaller cases of conflict they are actually tracking with other estimates, but all of flareups i could find where militant deaths topped civilian deaths seem to only have one set of estimates so they're unable to be compared in this way (or their casualty figures aren't verified/sourceable). in general though, i think this suggests that the IDF's numbers should not be treated as some sort of gospel but more as a probable lower bound of conflict deaths, in the same way that palestinian estimates generally constitute an upper bound.

    5 votes
    1. [8]
      Nmg (edited ) Link Parent
      Hence you wrote a long text post as a response....;-) God fucking damn it, forget I even said anything... Most of which are also quite partial and have their own vested interests.... In this case...

      i'm pretty uninterested in this as a whole

      Hence you wrote a long text post as a response....;-) God fucking damn it, forget I even said anything...

      hether it be from palestinian organizations, international watchdogs, journalistic outlets, or supranational bodies like the UN

      Most of which are also quite partial and have their own vested interests....

      in general though, i think this suggests that the IDF's numbers should not be treated as some sort of gospel

      In this case they seem highly consistent with what Hamas itself says. Not to mention they have literal pictures and analyses of the people who were killed, particularly the terrorists in clothing that identifies them as terrorists.The difference is discussed in my top level comment. I haven't analyzed reports of previous operations, only this one.

      1 vote
      1. [7]
        alyaza Link Parent
        i wrote it because you pinged me in one of your comments. also, this is the lamest reply people always make to this point. me commenting here to point out that the IDF has its own vested interest...

        Hence you wrote a long text post as a response....;-)

        i wrote it because you pinged me in one of your comments. also, this is the lamest reply people always make to this point. me commenting here to point out that the IDF has its own vested interest in presenting casualty numbers and that they should be considered with that in mind does not mean i have an interest in some protracted discussion about the IDF. in fact really the only reason my comment is longer than "the IDF as a combatant in all of these exchanges will always have a vested interest in downplaying total civilian fatalities, so keep that in mind when you read their casualty figures" is because this is tildes, not reddit, and the standard for commenting here is generally higher than reddit.

        9 votes
        1. [6]
          Keegan Link Parent
          @Nmg is just trying to make a joke and start the comment on a light note...

          @Nmg is just trying to make a joke and start the comment on a light note...

          6 votes
          1. [5]
            alyaza Link Parent
            i've been dealing with comments and dumb snipes of the sort for literally 12 years of my 13 on the internet and not one time in my experience has it ever been used as a joke, so forgive me for not...

            i've been dealing with comments and dumb snipes of the sort for literally 12 years of my 13 on the internet and not one time in my experience has it ever been used as a joke, so forgive me for not wanting to prolong my stay in this thread trying to parse that out when my intent was literally to make one comment and leave.

            3 votes
            1. Loire Link Parent
              And you will deal with them for 60 more years. The internet has been this way since the Eternal September. You're approach to tone will also leave you a bit more open to a sniping. Which is not to...

              And you will deal with them for 60 more years. The internet has been this way since the Eternal September.

              You're approach to tone will also leave you a bit more open to a sniping. Which is not to say , stop being you. I appreciate the difference in personality, but as I've said before you can't let it get to you.

              3 votes
            2. [3]
              Keegan Link Parent
              I was going to make a longer response than this but this is getting off topic. I just don't understand your view, which to me seems like you don't want any humor on Tildes. Also, saying is a...

              I was going to make a longer response than this but this is getting off topic.

              I just don't understand your view, which to me seems like you don't want any humor on Tildes.

              Also, saying

              because this is tildes, not reddit, and the standard for commenting here is generally higher than reddit.

              is a pretty good way to discourage people from commenting here.

              Please PM any response to keep this thread on topic.

              1. alyaza Link Parent
                trying to extrapolate my viewpoints on things from comments which have literally nothing to do with those viewpoints will do that. i've taken no stance on humor on tildes at all in this thread or...

                I just don't understand your view, which to me seems like you don't want any humor on Tildes.
                Also, saying "because this is tildes, not reddit, and the standard for commenting here is generally higher than reddit." is a pretty good way to discourage people from commenting here.

                trying to extrapolate my viewpoints on things from comments which have literally nothing to do with those viewpoints will do that. i've taken no stance on humor on tildes at all in this thread or on our standards of commenting, but you've somehow managed to spin me explaining why i wrote a comment in here (i was pinged) and why i didn't respond to the "YOU SAY YOU DON'T CARE YET YOU COMMENTED, CHECKMATE LIBERAL" snipe as a joke (because in 12 years i have never met someone who used it as a joke) into some position on humor on here and managed to spin why i didn't make the only comment i originally intended to make in here as short as i could have (because this website prioritizes discussion and encourages longer comments) into some statement in the affirmative on our community standards.

                also, tildes objectively has a higher expectation of commenting than reddit does. it's literally a part of tildes's mission, that's not just some shit i pulled out of my ass or which is my personal hot take. if that somehow scares people off, they were never fit to be here at all.

                6 votes
              2. diode Link Parent
                As far as I can tell, filtering out the type of low effort comments prevalent on Reddit seems to be one of the primary goal of Tildes, so in that sense it's a feature not a bug. I think @Nmg made...

                is a pretty good way to discourage people from commenting here.

                As far as I can tell, filtering out the type of low effort comments prevalent on Reddit seems to be one of the primary goal of Tildes, so in that sense it's a feature not a bug.

                I think @Nmg made his comment in good faith, but it is true that pointing out the length of a reply is often used as a type of disingenuous rhetorical device that I too would rather not see on Tildes.

                6 votes
  2. [8]
    Nmg (edited ) Link
    The ITIC (the post link) is effectively the english language mouthpiece of the IDF. ITIC Summary (some of the statistics are dated) [link] Casualties Israel 4 civilian casualties in Israel as a...

    The ITIC (the post link) is effectively the english language mouthpiece of the IDF.

    ITIC Summary (some of the statistics are dated) [link]

    On the morning of May 6, 2019 the eighth round of escalation, which had lasted for two days, came to an end. It began following Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) sniper fire targeting IDF soldiers. The IDF responded by attacking Hamas targets, killing two operatives of its military-terrorist wing. The following day a massive barrage of rockets and mortar shells began, which gradually expanded to cities up to 40 kilometers from the Gaza Strip, including Ashqelon, Ashdod, Qiryat Gat, Qiryat Malachi and Beersheba. During the round of escalation 690 rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israeli territory from the Gaza Strip. In response the IDF attacked more than 350 targets in the Gaza Strip, including targets of high value for the terrorist organizations.

    Casualties

    Israel

    4 civilian casualties in Israel as a result of Hamas and PIJ fire. Notably includes the literal shooting of an anti-tank missile against someone's car driving on the road on the Israeli side of the border. These anti-tank missiles are normally used against military targets (Hamas doesn't want to waste them on civilians).

    They also count 123 wounded.

    Gaza

    IDF takes responsibility for 23 casualties. 17 of those are militants.
    On civilian casualties, The ITIC says the following:

    Six of the Palestinians killed were apparently civilians (among them a child and infant) who were near terrorist targets and operatives when they were attacked. The ITIC examination relates exclusively to Palestinians killed by IDF attacks.

    This is consistent with both what I and @alyaza have said. The IDF does indeed take responsibility for the death of one pregnant woman and two children, as part of those civilian casualties:

    Amani al-Madhoun, 33, Sister-in-law of Abd al-Rahim al-Madhoun, PIJ terrorist operative in the northern Gaza Strip

    Maria Ahmed Ramadan al-Ghazali, four months old, killed in an attack in the northern Gaza Strip (Ashraf al-Qidra’s Facebook page, May 5, 2019). Her mother was Iman Abdallah Musa Asraf (an officer in the Hamas security forces). The attack that killed her was carried out by the IDF on the fourth and fifth stories of tower number 12 in the Sheikh Zaeid neighborhood in the northern Gaza Strip (Watan Agency, May 5, 2019). Her body was wrapped for burial in a Hamas flag (Palinfo Twitter account, May 6, 2019).

    Abd al-Rahman Talal Atiya Abu al-Jadyan, 12, killed in an attack in the northern Gaza Strip (Ashraf al-Qidra’s Facebook page, May 5, 2019). Son of Talal Atiya Muhammad Abu al-Jadyan, PFLP member, who was also killed.

    This leaves a difference of 4 casualties between Gazan Health Ministry and IDF. The Gazan health ministry claims that an additional pregnant woman and child were killed, while IDF says that it was a missile that was launched from Gaza and landed in Gaza (as some do).

    ITIC:

    Ashraf al-Qidra, spokesman for the ministry of health, included a pregnant woman and her child in the list of Palestinians killed in IDF attacks. The IDF spokesman reported that the woman and her child were killed in the misfiring of a rocket launched from Gaza City by the terrorist organizations (IDF spokesman, May 5, 2019).

    I previously posted an article that analyzed a Gaza news agency tweet that was later removed which supports the IDFs claim.

    I haven't looked into the the additional 2 casualties that the Gaza Health ministry counts and the IDF doesn't. They might be counting fetuses, but please don't quote me on that.

    I couldn't find statistics about the number wounded in Gaza.

    Meta

    I am making no claims about whether or not the recent IDF operations were justified, or under what conditions they were, in this post.

    Feel free to respectfully discuss how you feel about it, now that we have all this data available. Please don't let this devolve into tangential topics, such as [Long ago] Israeli or Palestinian history, or the merits or flaws of BDS. Of course I can't tell you, this isn't my site, but I can ask.

    Most mainstream media sources are not going to be posting these statistics because the fighting is over and they don't care to clarify the record.

    1 vote
    1. [7]
      spit-evil-olive-tips Link Parent
      As long as we're going meta...I think this isn't the best way to try to discuss a complicated topic like this. History is not a tangent, and can never be ignored. In a complicated geopolitical...

      Please don't let this devolve into tangential topics, such as Israeli or Palestinian history

      As long as we're going meta...I think this isn't the best way to try to discuss a complicated topic like this. History is not a tangent, and can never be ignored.

      In a complicated geopolitical situation like Israel & Palestine, everything is path dependent. You can't understand what's happening in the present, or what could / should happen in the future, without understanding the events that led up to now.

      8 votes
      1. [6]
        Nmg (edited ) Link Parent
        I am fine with discussions of the immediate history that relates to this topic, but if you start discussing Kfar Etsion or Deir Yassin or the Balfour Declaration or what Yasser Arafat ate for...

        I am fine with discussions of the immediate history that relates to this topic, but if you start discussing Kfar Etsion or Deir Yassin or the Balfour Declaration or what Yasser Arafat ate for breakfast, then I think you are getting off topic. All I am saying is keep it relevant. I would pretty please like it if you kept it relevant.

        1 vote
        1. [5]
          MimicSquid Link Parent
          Who determines relevance in a situation like this?

          Who determines relevance in a situation like this?

          6 votes
          1. [3]
            Nmg Link Parent
            You do. I can't stop you from posting anything you want.

            You do. I can't stop you from posting anything you want.

            1. [2]
              MimicSquid Link Parent
              You say that, but you also say: and So it seems like you've taken a distinct stance on what is and is not relevant to this thread, even as you're saying that people can say whatever they want. And...

              You say that, but you also say:

              Please don't let this devolve into tangential topics, such as Israeli or Palestinian history, or the merits or flaws of BDS.

              and

              I am fine with discussions of the immediate history that relates to this topic, but if you start discussing Kfar Etsion or Deir Yassin or the Balfour Declaration or what Yasser Arafat ate for breakfast, then I think you are getting off topic. All I am saying is keep it relevant.

              So it seems like you've taken a distinct stance on what is and is not relevant to this thread, even as you're saying that people can say whatever they want. And indeed they can, but you've set what you consider the acceptable terms of the discussion ahead of time. Do you see how that might limit the discussion?

              4 votes
              1. Nmg (edited ) Link Parent
                ... In my experiences, strangers on the internet have never listened to me before, I do not seriously expect anyone to take my request seriously now. I just didn't want the thread to be locked...

                ...

                In my experiences, strangers on the internet have never listened to me before, I do not seriously expect anyone to take my request seriously now. I just didn't want the thread to be locked from heated debate.

                I am indicating my personal preference in defining what I think is on and off-topic yes, but I am also saying I am not going to police anyone and tell them what I think of the appropriateness of their message.

                Aaaand of course meta-discussion gets more attention than the actual post topic...

                TL;DR You have the right to tell me I am full of shit and discuss 19th century Zionism and the BDS movement and I can't do anything about it. So if you're going to do it, just bloody do it so we can stop talking about whether or not you can do it...