16 votes

Any Democrat Who Wants to Be President Should Reject War with Iran, Not Hide Behind Process Criticisms

10 comments

  1. [9]
    Loire Link
    Why do these progressive journalists bloggers expect politicians seeking to win the general election in America, to harshly denounce America while in the process of campaigning? Ah. Yes. What a...

    Why do these progressive journalists bloggers expect politicians seeking to win the general election in America, to harshly denounce America while in the process of campaigning?

    Here, Warren uses stronger language to denounce Trump’s actions, but still falls short of a moral denunciation of U.S. violence

    Ah. Yes. What a sound campaign strategy. Because morally denouncing the United States will certainly play well with moderates and gain Warren enough votes to take down Trump in 2020. The media won't twist that soundbite and play it on repeat over and over for days on end. Trump's administration definitely won't run "Democratic Candidate X hates America" attack ads throughout the general. Certainly such a denunciation will also fundamentally change American foreign policy for the better and prevent future war hawks from provoking unjust wars. Brilliant.

    It's so easy to be morally righteous when you have no skin in the game. Julianne Tveten doesn't have to win an election. She doesn't have to appeal to 70+ million Americans across culturally and morally distinct regions with varying opinions of what constitutes "right". She doesn't have to make an hard decisions. She can sit back and criticize as if the answer is so obvious and nobody can see it but her. It's one thing to criticize moderates like Harris and Buttigieg for equivocating on process, but to attack SocDems because they won't commit themselves to shooting their own foot is fatuous.

    11 votes
    1. [8]
      Dogyote Link Parent
      wtf? I'm not sure what you're trying to say, why you're so sarcastic, and why you're attacking the author. Are you saying that it isn't politically impracticable to denounce violence committed by...

      wtf? I'm not sure what you're trying to say, why you're so sarcastic, and why you're attacking the author. Are you saying that it isn't politically impracticable to denounce violence committed by your own country? There's a difference between morally denouncing the United States and denouncing violence committed by the United States. Right? Or has violence become integrated into the very soul of the United States that the two can't be separated? I don't think the SocDem candidates would be shooting themselves in the foot by saying they're flatly opposed to war with Iran. According to the article, Sanders "acknowledges U.S. provocation and rejects the notion that Iran is a true threat" and he's doing alright.

      4 votes
      1. [7]
        Loire Link Parent
        How can I make it more clear for you? I'm sure if you re-read it you will fine it's in ain english Attack is a strong work for a fairly typical critique. As to the why, that was explained second...

        I'm not sure what you're trying to say,

        How can I make it more clear for you? I'm sure if you re-read it you will fine it's in ain english

        why you're attacking the author

        Attack is a strong work for a fairly typical critique. As to the why, that was explained second paragraph.

        politically impracticable to denounce violence committed by your own country?

        For a presidential candidate in this political environment? No. I don't know if you've noticed, but American culture is famously militaristic and have no appreciation for candidates seen as "weak" or "anti-military" regardless of the veracity of those claims. Remember Obama's "apology tour"? Remember how "weak" Obama was? So much as questioning the American military juggernaut makes you a traitor.

        As I mentioned in the original comment denunciations of "American violence" will be twisted into attack ads, media vitriol from all the networks, numerous Trump tweets about how the Democrats are okay with Iran attacking oil tankers. It's simply not sound campaign strategy to hobble yourself like that.

        Sanders "acknowledges U.S. provocation and rejects the notion that Iran is a true threat" and he's doing alright.

        Sanders a d Warren effectively took the same stance and yet the author only seemed to criticize Warren for it. I wonder why that is?

        3 votes
        1. [4]
          alyaza Link Parent
          i really don't buy this premise as meaning anything considering that donald lost people whose top rated issue was foreign policy by 60-34 to hillary clinton, who didn't exactly have great foreign...

          As I mentioned in the original comment denunciations of "American violence" will be twisted into attack ads, media vitriol from all the networks, numerous Trump tweets about how the Democrats are okay with Iran attacking oil tankers. It's simply not sound campaign strategy to hobble yourself like that.

          i really don't buy this premise as meaning anything considering that donald lost people whose top rated issue was foreign policy by 60-34 to hillary clinton, who didn't exactly have great foreign policy herself and is probably going to be outdone in that front by anybody who is nominated in 2020 purely because the next nominee is going to be more likable to people than clinton ever was or will be. one of donald's weakest issues by far is foreign policy, and absolutely nobody is itching to do something like go to war with iran. he might pull some of his base along with him on an idea like that, but his base is nowhere near a majority or even a plurality of the country.

          3 votes
          1. [3]
            Loire Link Parent
            I will be perfectly honest with you: My opinion is informed by past elections and everything may have changed. I'm still jaded by Swift boating during the first election I was aware of. Trump...

            I will be perfectly honest with you: My opinion is informed by past elections and everything may have changed. I'm still jaded by Swift boating during the first election I was aware of. Trump certainly is an aberation indicating a new political era/change electorate. If that is the case then predicating future elections upon past results will be completely wrong.

            With that said, you are equating the reality of Trump's poor foreign policy record with the perception. I can tell you, from working with a wide swathe of people both rural and urban. The perception of Trump with many disconnected electorate is that he is a strong President. And, anecdotal of course, I have had arguments with three people so far that believe going to war with Iran is a good idea. You are discounting how easily your countrymen are persuaded.

            1 vote
            1. [2]
              alyaza Link Parent
              i'm not really sure why it is you're generalizing, basing your opinions on where people stand through anecdotal evidence and a sample size of three, and trying to use that to talk down to people...

              With that said, you are equating the reality of Trump's poor foreign policy record with the perception. I can tell you, from working with a wide swathe of people both rural and urban. The perception of Trump with many disconnected electorate is that he is a strong President. I have had arguments with three people so far that believe going to war with Iran is a good idea. You are discounting how easily your countrymen are persuaded.

              i'm not really sure why it is you're generalizing, basing your opinions on where people stand through anecdotal evidence and a sample size of three, and trying to use that to talk down to people who both actually live in america and pay attention to where things stand but all the polling that gets conducted suggests the opposite of what conclusion you're drawing.

              gallup, as of march this year, put him at 42-56 approval with respect to foreign affairs, 35-55 with respect to syria, 38-59 with respect to russia, and 47-48 with respect to china. his best issue, north korea, gets him 51-45 nationally and 46% with independents. on no other foreign issue does he crack 45% with independents.

              AP/NORC found worse marks for him when they polled in january of this year and put him at 35-63.

              on iran specifically, yougov found his handling of iran at 40-44 and his foreign policy in general at 41-45 with the electorate in their june 16-18 polling. yougov's results tend to be on the "better" end of things for him (insofar as still being underwater by at least 4 points on most things is better).

              there is really nothing to suggest that it's anything more than a half and half issue with the electorate, much less the general public; there is considerably more evidence to suggest that donald's policies remain categorically unpopular--probably in the mid-50s disapproval, like his approval rating--with nearly everybody who's not already on his train, which is again nowhere near a majority or even plurality of the country.

              2 votes
              1. Loire Link Parent
                I apologize if it sounded like I was talking down to you, that wasn't at all the intention. I am, however, a resident in the U.S. and have been for years now so I'm not sure where that comment...

                I apologize if it sounded like I was talking down to you, that wasn't at all the intention.

                I am, however, a resident in the U.S. and have been for years now so I'm not sure where that comment comes from.

                Thank you for the polling numbers on the topic. It'll be interesting how those numbers play out once we move i to the general.

                4 votes
        2. [2]
          Dogyote Link Parent
          Wow, okay. I totally disagree with your opinion and I'm not going to engage with you anymore. You're far too angry.

          Wow, okay. I totally disagree with your opinion and I'm not going to engage with you anymore. You're far too angry.

          1. Loire Link Parent
            ... I am?

            You're far too angry.

            ... I am?

            5 votes
  2. Bullmaestro Link
    I really can't call who is going to win the Democrat nomination. All the candidates seem to be flawed in some manner and I'm not too sure if any of them will have what it takes to challenge Trump....

    I really can't call who is going to win the Democrat nomination. All the candidates seem to be flawed in some manner and I'm not too sure if any of them will have what it takes to challenge Trump.

    Don't get me wrong, Trump is the most controversial president that the US has ever elected, but the Democrats don't have anyone outstanding like Obama to run against him.

    1 vote