13 votes

Global condemnation of 'appalling' coup in Bolivia as military forces socialist president Evo Morales to resign

35 comments

  1. [20]
    flip
    Link
    So no mention about his power grab, extending his tenure way longer than the Constitution allowed him? Funny how that works. I know a couple of people in Bolivia, none of them are "right wing",...

    So no mention about his power grab, extending his tenure way longer than the Constitution allowed him? Funny how that works.

    I know a couple of people in Bolivia, none of them are "right wing", and both joined in the protests and told me that, yes the army had to get involved to get this done, but this is not a 1960's CIA backed revolution.

    The mention of "politically motivated charges" against Lula perfectly illustrates the low quality of the article, among other insanely biased statements. Hearing him talk about "social inclusion of the poor" after flying home on a private jet has to be a joke.

    14 votes
    1. [17]
      determinism
      Link Parent
      https://theintercept.com/2018/10/02/lula-brazil-election-noam-chomsky/ https://theintercept.com/2019/06/09/brazil-lula-operation-car-wash-sergio-moro/

      The mention of "politically motivated charges" against Lula perfectly illustrates the low quality of the article

      https://theintercept.com/2018/10/02/lula-brazil-election-noam-chomsky/

      I Just Visited Lula, the World’s Most Prominent Political Prisoner. A “Soft Coup” in Brazil’s Election Will Have Global Consequences.

      https://theintercept.com/2019/06/09/brazil-lula-operation-car-wash-sergio-moro/

      Leaked Chats Between Brazilian Judge and Prosecutor Who Imprisoned Lula Reveal Prohibited Collaboration and Doubts Over Evidence

      6 votes
      1. [16]
        flip
        Link Parent
        I live in Brazil, please don't try to educate me on the history of my country. I live here, I am a lawyer and worked with government a lot during the PT time in government on behalf of my clients...

        I live in Brazil, please don't try to educate me on the history of my country. I live here, I am a lawyer and worked with government a lot during the PT time in government on behalf of my clients (none have been arrested so far, because we didn't sink into the corruption mud), I know perfectly well what happened.

        Saying it's politically motivated is beyond lack of information, it is borderline intellectual malfeasance.

        The Intercept has proven to be extremely biased (I had high hopes for it) and seriously lacking in judgment regarding their sources. It was a waste of a great opportunity for an opposition vehicle of information, but they fell into the party line and lost all credibility.

        Corruption here has no party line, no right or left (which are ridiculous terms to use these days, by the way). Defending Lula based on ideology is ridiculous, since he has none. All he cares about is his status, he will bulldoze anything in his path to get it (including blaming everything he was charged with on his recently decesead wife, because that's the type of person he is).

        10 votes
        1. [15]
          determinism
          Link Parent
          All of the evidence that I have points towards (at the very least) lack of consensus on that point. To call it intellectual malfeasance is incredibly disingenuous....

          Saying it's politically motivated is beyond lack of information, it is borderline intellectual malfeasance.

          All of the evidence that I have points towards (at the very least) lack of consensus on that point. To call it intellectual malfeasance is incredibly disingenuous.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Car_Wash#Leaked_Conversations

          In response to the leaks, several top jurisprudence authorities and experts in Europe and the Americas, such as Susan Rose-Ackerman (praised by Car Wash prosecutor Deltan Dallagnol as the world's top corruption expert), Bruce Ackerman, and Luigi Ferrajoli, voiced their shock at the conduct of the Brazilian authorities and described former President Lula as a political prisoner, calling for his release.[13][14]

          5 votes
          1. [14]
            flip
            Link Parent
            Believe whatever you like. I have read the leaked conversations, the judicial decisions, everything. I have talked to numerous judges and prosecutors over the course of my life, and reached my own...

            Believe whatever you like. I have read the leaked conversations, the judicial decisions, everything. I have talked to numerous judges and prosecutors over the course of my life, and reached my own conclusions based on more than 20 years of law education and practice in Brazil and abroad. You're free to reach your own conclusions, based on whatever sources you'd like to consume, it's just sad that the information exists and people still want to cling on to this idiotic ideological pattern of not believing what's right in front of their eyes.

            Just understand that Lula (and many others who were freed based on the same STF decision) did not have their convictions vacated, the evidence against them is overwhelming, and this was a huge step backwards for a country known for taking them. But this was probably the worst step back of the last 10 years.

            I thought the year couldn't get worse, after my fellow Brazilians decided that electing that pea-brained sack of dumb was a good idea, but apparently it can, now we can also return to the status quo ante in terms of corruption, under which Lula's party (and many others, because this is not just about PT) stole BILLIONS of dollars of taxpayer's money while our education, health, and all sort of public services go to (even worse than it already is) shit. Good times.

            5 votes
            1. [13]
              determinism
              Link Parent
              Yours is the first opinion that I've heard that has rejected the claim that the handling of Lula's case was politically motivated (I apologize if this is a misinterpretation of your position on...

              Yours is the first opinion that I've heard that has rejected the claim that the handling of Lula's case was politically motivated (I apologize if this is a misinterpretation of your position on that fact, I can't really parse it from what you've stated so far). The only opposition I've read so far is that the conversations were falsified. I've only heard this story from second hand sources (Greenwald's writing and sources on Wikipedia) and have not read the leaked conversations. I can't figure out if you are contradicting these interpretations or just trying to make a broader point about Lula's guilt and lamenting the handling of the case?

              4 votes
              1. [12]
                flip
                Link Parent
                No, the conversations were not falsified. They are real. However, the context matters. I'll try to condense things, because it's past bed time. I can feel a wall of text coming, though. So sorry...

                No, the conversations were not falsified. They are real. However, the context matters. I'll try to condense things, because it's past bed time. I can feel a wall of text coming, though. So sorry about that in advance.

                ---- x ---- x ----

                Although yes, those conversations are not supposed to happen, they do, all the time. Brazilian law, especially in terms of judicial proceedings, is one gigantic exercise of lack of boundaries. Judges talk to lawyers when they shouldn't, prosecutors tell judges things they shouldn't, lawyers have dinner with prosecutors and discuss their cases, it's an enormous mess of personal relations, looking the other way, and overall lack of professional ethics.

                Should it happen? No. Does it happen in almost all lawsuits? Yes. It wasn't outside the normal and, because it's such a complex case, as are all cases involving corruption, especially on a federal Govt level, it takes a lot of work to make it into something that makes sense. So should it be the basis for saying it was politically motivated and should be thrown out? Holy shit no.

                And, added that they were hacked by the most basic stuff you can imagine, like old "click here" level stuff (none of them had 2FA turned on, to make matters worse), it's really baffling that these people were/are handling one of the most complex and important cases in the history of the country (and probably the biggest corruption investigation in the world in terms of reach and money) and managed to get a lot of convictions out of it.

                Does it make it OK? No, probably not. Does it mean that they conspired to lock Lula up? No, it doesn't. Especially because there were conversations about all the other cases (I honestly have lost count at this point) and the leaked conversations were extremely selective of what they showed, displaying a pretty high level of editing to make the narrative go one way (more on this at the end).

                ---- x ---- x ----

                The entire proceeding (on a macro level) targeted people from across the political spectrum in Brazil. No party was left untouched, it was truly a national level task force, working across the board. Yes, Lula was a prime target, because he led Brazil for 8 years, electing his successor for another 8 (she was impeached in the last of those) and, under his watch, an enormous corruption scheme was created (expanding on stuff that was already there, but this was beyond anything the country had seen to that point), operated, turned into a political weapon.

                Was the case against him strong? No, not really. Did they manage to get enough evidence (based on people they arrested and cut deals with for smaller sentences)? Undoubtedly. Regarding Lula specifically, here are some of those: one construction company (the same embroiled in a ton of case across Latin America - read about Odebretch's corruption scandal in Peru for a good example) paid for a farm he owned through a friend (which was proved beyond reasonable doubt) to be remodelled. They gave him a beachside property (which is one of his convictions) in exchange for legislation passed at their request. His son, before dad became president, was a janitor in a zoo. He now is the largest landowner in Brazil, has one of the largest cattle farms in the country (the largest is another PT crony, who was also set free the other day). Another company donated a place in São Paulo for his "institute", free of charge and not against anything the Govt did for them (it has since emerged that they also had some tax breaks handed to them during that period). The list goes on.

                Their corruption scheme was syphoning a % from Petrobras contracts off the top. In a multibillion dollar contract, as Oil & Gas tends to be, it's a massive amount of money. But they also sold laws and rules, paid for construction in countries they shouldn't have (money Brazil will never get back and derives no benefit from – the PT politicians did it because they syphoned money from these projects into their personal stashes). They benefited a few selected companies (rumour has it that many of these have PT people behind them, profiting from them), destroying a few industries in the process because these "national champions" bought the smaller players (not to mention the competition problems and the long list of labour shit that goes with it). The list of things that was done is immense, honestly it's too much to list in one go.

                ---- x ---- x ----

                Long story short, 100% of the politicians that were the beneficiaries of this frankly ridiculous decision by our supreme court (and it takes an extremely lousy reading of the Constitution to reach that decision, which the same court had ruled against a lot of times before) were found guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. One guy had more than 10 million dollars in cash in a flat. Another was getting paid a monthly stipend (his wife, mum, dad, sons, etc. as well) by one construction company. Odebretch had an entire Dept of the company tasked with keeping track of their corruption payment, they even had a proprietary software for controlling that (apparently they spent almost 1 billion dollars in kickbacks, while getting more than 30 billion in Govt contracts during the same period – I'm sure it's because of the competency, nothing to do with money being handed out).

                This has been an enormous setback for the fight against corruption in Brazil, a country where it is endemic and causes incalculable harm to millions of people each day. And it was done on the back not only of Lula being set free, but a host of other well-know politicians and business that had finally been asked to pay for their crimes and now they are all walking free. Without the threat of jail time, you can't get people to rat on others, so the crimes become much harder to prove and the fight against corruption suffers more and more.

                ---- x ---- x ----

                To make it even worse, Lula being free not only almost guarantees that Bolsonaro will be re-elected, because people see him as someone who will fight Lula, but this also guarantees that the country will be a slave to these bullshit political sideshows when we should be tackling corruption, inequality, health, education, etc. It's (yet another in a sea of them) lost chance of making the country better, but now it will be an afterthought in the fight by a lot of corrupt, incompetent, and frankly gigantic assholes who are only looking out for themselves.

                ---- x ---- x ----

                So yeah, I'm lamenting the handling of the case, because it showed the worst sides of the Brazilian legal system (especially how fucking disgusting our supreme court has become), it made corruption OK again, because there's no punishment for crimes that hurt society the most, by diverting resources from where it should go to go into slush funds and BVI bank accounts of assholes, and it will guarantee 3 years of the most idiotic political arguments and discussions, killing what little momentum we had built in repairing the terrible damage decades of corruption have done to it. And yeah, I'm contradicting those interpretations because they are intellectually shallow at best and criminally misleading on purpose most likely, because no one that has had access to all the publicly available material, who understands how corruption works, and has paid half a heart beat's attention to Brazilian politics cannot, in good faith, say this was a politically motivated sham.

                Lula and the others that had been sent to prison are all, without a shadow of a doubt, guilty of their crimes and much more. It is a shame that some of them are being hailed as heroes for withstanding their unjust prison time when they are simply grafters who took advantage of their positions to make money for themselves, no matter who got hurt in the process.

                This is money that could have gone to schools, hospitals, hell, just paying for infra-structure. But no, it went into $15,000 bottles of wine, trips abroad, buying of real estate, etc. And that is what hurts the most, the amount of citizens that suffered, who didn't get one service or another, of kids that went to shit schools, etc., because these assholes wanted to use the money to go to Miami and spend their ill-gotten money on crap.

                ---- x ---- x ----

                Also, just as an aside, when you are elected to Congress in Brazil, you have alternates, that take your job if you leave, become incapacitated, whatever.

                Greenwald's husband got his political gig by taking the place of a dude from Lula's party (whose claim to fame was to appear on Big Brother and parley that into a political gig and then fighting with Bolsonaro when they were both in Congress) and the husband's party was, throughout PT's Govt, part of their base (still is, now in the opposition). Funny how that rarely gets mentioned, no? Makes it harder to be impartial when publishing stuff, I'd say.

                ---- x ---- x ----

                So yeah, seeing people claim Lula was a political prisoner kinda pisses me off, sorry if anything I wrote came across as abrasive, it was not my intention.
                It just hurts to realise that being an upstanding and law-abiding citizen in my country is for suckers, since crime obviously pays and working and paying your taxes makes you an idiot.
                Despondent doesn't begin to describe the mood these days from anyone who isn't blinded by ideology and can still look at things critically in the country (an ever diminishing minority, I'm sad to see).

                14 votes
                1. [9]
                  Death
                  Link Parent
                  Thank you for this long response, I'm happy to see some opinions on these things from somebody who actually lives the experiences of corruption in Brazil. All too often I see other European or US...

                  Thank you for this long response, I'm happy to see some opinions on these things from somebody who actually lives the experiences of corruption in Brazil. All too often I see other European or US leftists excuse Lula as some kind of misunderstood revolutionary or necessary evil in a fight against the far-right.

                  5 votes
                  1. [8]
                    flip
                    Link Parent
                    You are more than welcome, old friend (I love that username). Regrettably, the public discourse has been completely compromised here, so it's either "Lula didn't do anything wrong" or "Lula should...

                    You are more than welcome, old friend (I love that username).

                    Regrettably, the public discourse has been completely compromised here, so it's either "Lula didn't do anything wrong" or "Lula should be shot", same with Bolsonaro, either he's the second coming of Jesus or he's the second coming of Hitler. There is no grey, only black or white, 0 or 1.

                    It's really tiresome, but it's the world we live in now, apparently...

                    5 votes
                    1. [7]
                      moonbathers
                      Link Parent
                      When right-wing nationalism and fascism are as much of a problem as they're becoming, yes, it's closer to black and white. Taking a moderate position only enables them.

                      When right-wing nationalism and fascism are as much of a problem as they're becoming, yes, it's closer to black and white. Taking a moderate position only enables them.

                      5 votes
                      1. [6]
                        Loire
                        Link Parent
                        That is absolutely not the case. Was socialism the solution for fascist Germany/Italy/Arguably Japan? No. Only one communist nation took part in that solution. The situation isn't just two...

                        That is absolutely not the case.

                        Was socialism the solution for fascist Germany/Italy/Arguably Japan? No. Only one communist nation took part in that solution.

                        The situation isn't just two options, the only reason you think it is is because Reddit has convinced you that ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISTS are avtual moderates and not covert reactionaries.

                        1. [5]
                          moonbathers
                          Link Parent
                          I don't understand how your two paragraphs go together. I know enlightened centrists are covert reactionaries, my point is that saying "I hate that everything is so black and white these days"...

                          I don't understand how your two paragraphs go together. I know enlightened centrists are covert reactionaries, my point is that saying "I hate that everything is so black and white these days" while someone like Bolsonaro is in power enables him. We need to forcefully, unambiguously push back against people like him.

                          2 votes
                          1. [4]
                            Loire
                            Link Parent
                            Through the length of this thread, Flip, the original poster you are replying to is pointing out that Lula, the former socialist leader ran an extremely corrupt administration. He is pushing back...

                            Through the length of this thread, Flip, the original poster you are replying to is pointing out that Lula, the former socialist leader ran an extremely corrupt administration. He is pushing back against the general left wing concept that "socialist = good", against the idea that Lula was a good guy because he aligns politically with what the overwhelmingly socialist population of tilde agrees with. His earlier post was an explanation as to why Lula was not a political prisoner. He then compared the situation with Bolsonaro saying the guy is probably not literally Hitler.

                            Your reply, which I imagine keyed in on the Bolsonaro bit, within the context of the thread, indicated that the only way to fight back against growth of the fascist right is to support the progressive left. This was also a very common concept during the 1930's when moderates all over the world, including within America, were cannibalized by the fascist right and the socialist left.

                            The socialist left didn't win the last war against the fascists, with the exception of the Soviet Union. The socialist left was completely and utterly beaten by the fascists in almost every nation where the battle occurred. So to indicate that a moderate position is "wrong" and that the options are "black and white" is wholly incorrect.

                            1 vote
                            1. [3]
                              moonbathers
                              Link Parent
                              Socialism is good. I don't know enough about Lula to comment on him. Bolsonaro may not be literally Hitler, but he is a fascist and so many people (myself included) are screaming about him, Trump,...

                              Socialism is good. I don't know enough about Lula to comment on him. Bolsonaro may not be literally Hitler, but he is a fascist and so many people (myself included) are screaming about him, Trump, Orban, Le Pen, et al. because Hitler didn't start out by throwing everyone into concentration camps either.

                              Moderates may have been a major contributor to the war effort in World War 2, but they also appeased Hitler beforehand in hopes that he would be satisfied. I'd also be willing to bet there were a lot of socialists in the ranks of American soldiers during that war. Where did socialists lose and why?

                              Trump wouldn't be president if moderates hadn't appeased and enabled him. There have been plenty of Republicans with a reputation for being moderates who spoke out against Trump, but what did they actually do? Susan Collins made a whole big deal about being her own person and then voted for Kavanaugh when the chips were down. Corker and Flake didn't do anything of consequence and are now gone. McCain's one real moment was voting against the AHCA and that was about it. Outside of politics, how many Democratic moderates/center-left people have said that they'll vote for Trump or sit out if Sanders or Warren win the primary? If Donald Trump is running for president and you don't vote for the Democrat against him regardless of who they are, you're part of the problem. Yes, even if Biden gets the nomination.

                              The only way to fight back against fascists is to support left-wing causes and candidates because moderates don't do enough. Moderates didn't fight for women's suffrage or labor rights or civil rights. FDR didn't get us out of the Great Depression by making the New Deal a bunch of moderate policies (yes, I know suddenly having to make a ton of machinery for war contributed). Moderate policies haven't done enough to stop an ever-growing share of the economy's gains from going to the wealthiest people, and as long as people continue to needlessly suffer because the wealthy want to hoard that money, they're going to move either to the right or to the left because what we have now isn't working. Only one of those sides actually wants a better life for everyone.

                              2 votes
                              1. [2]
                                Loire
                                Link Parent
                                There are no moderate Republicans. There haven't been any for at least a decade.

                                There have been plenty of Republicans with a reputation for being moderates

                                There are no moderate Republicans. There haven't been any for at least a decade.

                                1. moonbathers
                                  Link Parent
                                  I agree. Some have a reputation for it but always fall in line at the end of the day. In a broader sense, you see wealthy center-left people (who we can all probably consider moderate Democrats)...

                                  I agree. Some have a reputation for it but always fall in line at the end of the day. In a broader sense, you see wealthy center-left people (who we can all probably consider moderate Democrats) sometimes write columns about how if Sanders or Warren win the nomination they'll sit the election out, which is actively helping Trump. They'd rather let the world burn and keep their wealth (fall in line) than face the fact that their policies aren't doing enough (and do the right thing).

                2. [2]
                  determinism
                  Link Parent
                  Thank you for the time and thought that you put into this response.

                  Thank you for the time and thought that you put into this response.

                  4 votes
                  1. flip
                    Link Parent
                    Don't mention it. It's the least I can do.

                    Don't mention it. It's the least I can do.

                    5 votes
    2. [2]
      kjhanonichi
      Link Parent
      it's not a power grab, he was legitimately voted in. the only other choice bolivia had is u.s. imperialist foreign policy. it's no coincidence that bolivia also has the largest deposit of lithium...

      it's not a power grab, he was legitimately voted in. the only other choice bolivia had is u.s. imperialist foreign policy. it's no coincidence that bolivia also has the largest deposit of lithium out of anywhere in the world rn and morales has been on cia target lists for years because he doesn't want u.s. intervention. it's a coup, there's nothing else to call it, and it's backed by the cia in yet another authoritarian regime change in south america

      3 votes
      1. flip
        Link Parent
        No, he was not legitimately voted in. He asked, in a referendum, if the population approved of him having another term. They voted no and he still did it. If anything, he did a power grab first....

        No, he was not legitimately voted in.

        He asked, in a referendum, if the population approved of him having another term. They voted no and he still did it. If anything, he did a power grab first. And the most recent election showed really good signs of being tampered with as well.

        That CIA backed regime change is such a tired trope. Should have been retired long ago. Please find another conspiracy theory to defend authoritarian leaders you like in order to assess blame onto people you don't.

        Not denying the CIA did that a lot back in the day. But this clearly is not the same as the stuff we went through in the 60's until the 80's.

        5 votes
  2. Leonidas
    (edited )
    Link
    Even if people here have differing opinions on the legality of Morales' tenure, that hardly excuses the rampant anti-indigenous violence which has erupted as a result of this "intervention." Not...
    9 votes
  3. [2]
    ibis
    Link
    In 2016 Morales held a referendum to change the constitution and remove limits on presidential terms so that he could continue as president. He lost the vote but stayed anyway. I think this result...

    In 2016 Morales held a referendum to change the constitution and remove limits on presidential terms so that he could continue as president. He lost the vote but stayed anyway.

    I think this result was inevitable he should have stepped down years ago.

    5 votes
    1. flip
      Link Parent
      It's amazingly convenient for the author of the article to "forget" to mention these issues.

      It's amazingly convenient for the author of the article to "forget" to mention these issues.

      6 votes
  4. [2]
    Nexu
    Link
    This translated article of Maria Galindo (Bolivian feminist and founder of Mujeres Creando) offers some interesting perspective: I don't know much about the situation in Bolivia but I found this...

    This translated article of Maria Galindo (Bolivian feminist and founder of Mujeres Creando) offers some interesting perspective:

    It tires me to have to repeat that the Movement to Socialism (MAS) is exporting to the world the idea that what is happening in Bolivia is a popular progressive bloc against an extreme and fundamentalist right. The government of Evo Morales was for many years responsible for dismantling of popular organizations by dividing them, corrupting them and imposing clientelist leadership, making pacts with the most conservative sectors of society including fundamentalist Christian sects to which he granted the fascist illegal candidacy of a Korean evangelical pastor, who was endorsed with the approval of the MAS.

    Evo has denounced to the international community that it is a coup d’etat promoted by the CIA and the fascist landowning oligarchy of Santa Cruz, and that is partly true, but it is only half of the conflict.

    He has mistakenly converted himself into the sole figurehead, a symbol of the concentration of irreplaceable power. The figure bears the myth of the “Indigenous president” whose symbolic power is the color of his skin, which he carries with him, a government inhabited by a circle of corrupt of intellectuals and leaders who revere him because they need him as a mask, as Franz Fanon outlines in his book Black Skin, White Masks.

    Evo Morales decided to exalt racist acts to position himself as a victim, using these acts in perverse ways, to the point that acts of racism committed during the general strike became part of government propaganda, amplifying this speech and making racist acts useful for the government itself. Since the movements criticizing them was and is exclusively urban, the government also exploited urban-rural contradictions, as if the conflict was between the two. The intention was to use both contradictions to disqualify criticism and gain time. They did not care about the social cost.

    I don't know much about the situation in Bolivia but I found this article to be insightful as well as flip's comments in this thread.

    5 votes
    1. Leonidas
      Link Parent
      This is a very good point. There's a strong tendency in leftist struggle to glorify certain leaders and associate their rise and their power with that of the movement as a whole, but that only...

      This is a very good point. There's a strong tendency in leftist struggle to glorify certain leaders and associate their rise and their power with that of the movement as a whole, but that only sets people up for disappointment and failure. A central tenet of socialism is the importance of the people and our will over that of tyrants and oppression, so putting anyone on a pedestal runs counter to that. We should try to continue our criticisms of the coup and its far-right, anti-indigenous enablers without tying that criticism to the millstone of one flawed human.

      2 votes
  5. [8]
    determinism
    Link
    Other Articles on this topic Summary of yesterday's events. Live Updates from Sunday Tenuous evidence of plans for a right-wing coup with blessings from US congressmen. Audios linking Civic...

    Other Articles on this topic

    Summary of yesterday's events.
    Live Updates from Sunday

    Tenuous evidence of plans for a right-wing coup with blessings from US congressmen.
    Audios linking Civic Ex-Military and US in Coup Plans

    Contradiction of the mainstream narrative of election interference
    No Evidence That Bolivian Election Results Were Affected by Irregularities or Fraud, Statistical Analysis Shows

    Broader Media Criticism
    MSM Adamantly Avoids The Word “Coup” In Bolivia Reporting

    The New York Times' Attempt on the subject.
    Bolivian Leader Evo Morales Steps Down

    Final words in that article from the trustworthy lips of Jair Bolsanaro. The man who certainly hasn't himself engaged in the anti-democratic behavior of conspiring to jail a political rival and murder a journalist.

    “The word coup is used a lot when the left loses,” he told the newspaper O Globo. “When they win, it’s legitimate. When they lose it’s a coup.”

    4 votes
    1. [7]
      Loire
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Look, I understand due to America's previous activities on the continent, those further left than center would love to pin this on America. I would suggest some hesitation since a congressman has...

      Tenuous evidence of plans for a right-wing coup with blessings from US congressmen.
      Audios linking Civic Ex-Military and US in Coup Plans

      Look, I understand due to America's previous activities on the continent, those further left than center would love to pin this on America. I would suggest some hesitation since a congressman has nearly zero power to cause a coup, a couple Americans supporting the ousting of left wing politician is not an American conspiracy. Right wing actors, especially militaries are capable of acting on their own accord.

      "The word coup is used a lot when the left loses,” he told the newspaper O Globo. “When they win, it’s legitimate. When they lose it’s a coup.”

      Or it's used when the military performs a coup?

      5 votes
      1. determinism
        Link Parent
        Yeah, this is why I qualified that with "tenuous". My understanding is that the recordings include mention of those politicians by name but that's the extent of the evidence of their involvement....

        Yeah, this is why I qualified that with "tenuous". My understanding is that the recordings include mention of those politicians by name but that's the extent of the evidence of their involvement. I fully recognize that the right wing in Bolivia is capable of acting on their own in this. However, my understanding of US covert involvement in Latin American regime change tells me to be skeptical. This is far from "pinning it on America". If these US politicians had prior knowledge of a planned coup against a democracy in South America and voiced support, I have a problem with that.

        4 votes
      2. [5]
        Leonidas
        Link Parent
        But on the other hand, there are certainly some interesting examples like this huge compendium of accounts tweeting the same copypasta that there was no coup going on, which, even if they aren't...

        But on the other hand, there are certainly some interesting examples like this huge compendium of accounts tweeting the same copypasta that there was no coup going on, which, even if they aren't directly illustrative of CIA involvement, certainly point to something.

        3 votes
        1. [4]
          Loire
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          There was fraud detected during the election, not to mention that Morales should not have been allowed to run for a 4th term by their constitution and then just did it anyway. The protests that...

          There was fraud detected during the election, not to mention that Morales should not have been allowed to run for a 4th term by their constitution and then just did it anyway. The protests that occurred as a result were organic responses to that fact. And then the military stepped in and asked him to resign turning the whole thing into a coup.

          But tildes is very left wing so regardless of the likely election fraud and corruption, despite the mass protests demanding it, a socialist president being ousted can only mean CIA plot.

          2 votes
          1. [2]
            moonbathers
            Link Parent
            Where are any of us saying it's a CIA plot?

            But tildes is very left wing so regardless of the likely election fraud and corruption, despite the mass protests demanding it, a socialist president being ousted can only mean CIA plot.

            Where are any of us saying it's a CIA plot?

            6 votes
            1. Leonidas
              Link Parent
              Not really something I've seen on here, but it's a very common sentiment on Twitter. There's plenty of reasons to hate the CIA, but in this case just blaming them paints a very simplistic view of...

              Not really something I've seen on here, but it's a very common sentiment on Twitter. There's plenty of reasons to hate the CIA, but in this case just blaming them paints a very simplistic view of the situation.

          2. Leonidas
            Link Parent
            I think one of the major messaging flaws of the left is promoting the assumption that every reactionary trend is the result of a CIA coup. Even if they've certainly had their fingers in the pot...

            I think one of the major messaging flaws of the left is promoting the assumption that every reactionary trend is the result of a CIA coup. Even if they've certainly had their fingers in the pot quite consistently in the past and there's a strong possibility they're backing the coup now, I think people underestimate the capability of the Bolivian elites to take these actions of their own accord.

            1 vote
  6. [2]
    nsa
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    I'm happy he's stepped down, but this is a very delicate situation. This could very easily go way worse; while coups aren't always bad (see Sudan) and in theory are the last line of defense...

    I'm happy he's stepped down, but this is a very delicate situation. This could very easily go way worse; while coups aren't always bad (see Sudan) and in theory are the last line of defense against authoritarianism, they have a habit of becoming military dictatorships, especially in Latin America where the military had wielded outsized political influence for decades. The military needs to stay out of the situation from now on and let the Congress and other state agencies arrange free and fair elections.

    3 votes
    1. Leonidas
      Link Parent
      The coup has already deposed the vice president and the president of the senate, the people next in the line of succession, and are now claiming opposition senator Jeanine Áñez is the new...

      The coup has already deposed the vice president and the president of the senate, the people next in the line of succession, and are now claiming opposition senator Jeanine Áñez is the new president. The mask is coming off in earnest now.

      3 votes
  7. Comment removed by site admin
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