19 votes

Stabbing attack at North York massage parlour was ‘incel’ terrorism, police say

17 comments

  1. dubteedub
    Link
    I am really glad to see that authorities are properly labeling the attacks by incels as domestic terrorism. The people on these online forums are radicalizing each other into a warped worldview...

    I am really glad to see that authorities are properly labeling the attacks by incels as domestic terrorism. The people on these online forums are radicalizing each other into a warped worldview where their view their lives as hopeless due to things they have no control over (mainly that they believe their facial features prevent them from every attaining a romantic partner). This ideology leaves these men with thinking that there are only two options are suicide or mass murder. Many of them go on attacks because they know at least then they will be praised on their incel forums like Elliot Rodger.

    For anyone who has not seen it yet, I really can't recommend Contrapoints video on Incels enough. She does an amazing job dissecting their views.

    17 votes
  2. [16]
    Rez
    Link
    What do you all think should be done about incels? Not the ones indoctrinated in the hateful ideology, just the literally involuntarily celibate ones that are ripe for recruitment. It's...

    What do you all think should be done about incels? Not the ones indoctrinated in the hateful ideology, just the literally involuntarily celibate ones that are ripe for recruitment. It's statistically supported that young American men are having notably less sex than they used to. Young women are affected to a lesser extent it seems but not nearly as much.

    10 votes
    1. [10]
      dubteedub
      Link Parent
      I think deplatforming the various incel forums is a great first start. If we make it more difficult for young, vulnerable men to find these forums in the first place, we can stop them from being...

      I think deplatforming the various incel forums is a great first start. If we make it more difficult for young, vulnerable men to find these forums in the first place, we can stop them from being radicalized. I think Reddit has been extremely slow in taking proactive measures in this regard and only banned /r/Braincels 7 months ago after it had initially banned /r/incels 2 years ago.

      We should not just deplatform these folks without giving them alternative outlets to discuss some of the real issues that affect them. One that I highly recommend on Reddit is /r/MensLib. It is a forum that discusses men's issues in a positive, action-oriented way from a feminist perspective. It highlights how issues of the patriarchy not only affect women, but ways it affects men as well. Things like masculinity, body image, mental health are all issues that need to be more openly discussed in a positive place and I think /r/Menslib does a great job of getting that movement started.

      In general, I think our society needs to be more open to discussing mental health. One way to do that from a policy perspective is providing more resources for accessing therapy for those in need.

      Finally, for those that are already radicalized and pose a threat to themselves and others, resources should be provided to federal law enforcement agencies to track these communities and stop acts of terrorism before they can be carried out. We should treat the worst incels like the actual domestic terror operations that they are.

      15 votes
      1. [9]
        Rez
        Link Parent
        How do you think therapy would help? What would the goal be there? Teaching them to be okay with being sexless? I assume you mean that as separate from seeing a psychiatrist for medication of some...

        How do you think therapy would help? What would the goal be there? Teaching them to be okay with being sexless? I assume you mean that as separate from seeing a psychiatrist for medication of some kind.

        6 votes
        1. [4]
          dubteedub
          Link Parent
          A lot of these guys just have an incredibly poor self image. They think that they are hideously ugly and because of that there is no hope for them to succeed in society. The crazy part is that...

          A lot of these guys just have an incredibly poor self image. They think that they are hideously ugly and because of that there is no hope for them to succeed in society. The crazy part is that most of them look entirely normal. Like you can look at the posts on /r/Incelselfie and they are all just literally normal guys that just have horrible self esteem. These guys mostly just need a shower, a haircut, and maybe a better diet / exercise.

          It is not about teaching them to be okay with being sexless, it is about teaching them that the black pill is not real, they have hope, they are mostly facing normal anxieties about dating and self image, and that support is available for them. And also that women are not to blame for whatever problems them have have.

          8 votes
          1. [2]
            Rez
            Link Parent
            Well, in terms of problem solving, what do you think the root cause is? Incels came before incels. You don't become blackpilled and then become an incel, you go from being an incel to blackpilled....

            Well, in terms of problem solving, what do you think the root cause is? Incels came before incels. You don't become blackpilled and then become an incel, you go from being an incel to blackpilled. I.e., I don't think a whole generation of men suddenly stopped showering and getting haircuts thereby making fixing the problem mostly as simple as that.

            3 votes
            1. CALICO
              Link Parent
              Just a total shot in the dark. I wonder if the lack of utilization of Third Places, combined with texting and the internet partially replacing real-life social gathering has something to do with...

              Just a total shot in the dark.

              I wonder if the lack of utilization of Third Places, combined with texting and the internet partially replacing real-life social gathering has something to do with it.

              Pre-(cell)phones, students would socialize in person. Interacting face-to-face builds social skills, and meeting potential partners is easier due to use of common areas and physical proximity.

              The internet, and namely social media in recent history, has in part—if not entirely for some—replaced just hanging out with a whole new space. A voyeuristic space. A space with new social rules and cues. A space that isn't intuitive, and doesn't lend itself to the same kind of socializing that happens in person over time. And if all your socializing happens over the wire, one is bound to be ill equipped to handle meatspace interaction.

              6 votes
          2. NaraVara
            Link Parent
            Even that's not really an impediment to barrier to getting laid though. Like, it probably doesn't help your odds but plenty of unwashed, smelly, chubsters are still managing to get it in.

            These guys mostly just need a shower, a haircut, and maybe a better diet / exercise.

            Even that's not really an impediment to barrier to getting laid though. Like, it probably doesn't help your odds but plenty of unwashed, smelly, chubsters are still managing to get it in.

            3 votes
        2. [4]
          streblo
          Link Parent
          You seem to be under the assumption that sexlessness is outside the ability of these young men to change. Young men are fascinated and enthralled by sex. Once you're in a serious long-term...

          You seem to be under the assumption that sexlessness is outside the ability of these young men to change.

          Young men are fascinated and enthralled by sex. Once you're in a serious long-term relationship with a healthy sex life, sex becomes like 10% of the relationship or less. Contrary to incel-belief, most women aren't out trying to get laid by good-looking men, they are looking for that other 90% of a relationship.

          This is somewhere that with some inward focus and self-improvment, even someone not great on the eyes can out-compete someone who is just looking for sex.

          6 votes
          1. [3]
            Rez
            Link Parent
            Isn't that self-evidently true? Or are we saying that ~10% of young men lost their sex drive in the last 10 years? I would hazard that the infamous incel crowd makes up only a small fraction of...

            You seem to be under the assumption that sexlessness is outside the ability of these young men to change.

            Isn't that self-evidently true? Or are we saying that ~10% of young men lost their sex drive in the last 10 years? I would hazard that the infamous incel crowd makes up only a small fraction of these statistically seen celibate men, otherwise the internet would be absolutely flooded with incel rhetoric.

            Keep in mind I'm trying to focus on the fact that a huge number of young men are now sexless as compared to the recent past. "Incels" are recruited from this crowd, they do not constitute that crowd. Unless you're saying that all of these young men subscribe to incel rhetoric and that's the cause for their celibacy, then it definitely does seem like they're unable to change it by themselves and they need some kind of help that they aren't getting that only the alt-right is providing.

            2 votes
            1. NaraVara
              Link Parent
              Not implausible. Look at what's happening to drivers licenses. Kids just aren't going out as much as they used to, which means they're having less face-to-face interaction. On top of that, there's...

              Or are we saying that ~10% of young men lost their sex drive in the last 10 years?

              Not implausible. Look at what's happening to drivers licenses. Kids just aren't going out as much as they used to, which means they're having less face-to-face interaction.

              On top of that, there's more non-sex things to occupy them than ever before. Plus, you can't underrate changes in reporting bias. For example, is it possible that people are less likely to count blowjobs or dry humping as "sex" than they used to be?

              4 votes
            2. streblo
              Link Parent
              How so? If men are having less sex than they did 10 years ago that could indicate less time, desire, or knowledge. It could also be from a huge range of societal changes. It's certainly not...

              Isn't that self-evidently true?

              How so? If men are having less sex than they did 10 years ago that could indicate less time, desire, or knowledge. It could also be from a huge range of societal changes. It's certainly not self-evident.

              Also, your source seems somewhat contrived. Only 4% more men are having no sex compared to 1989 -- I would like to see the whole dataset because it seems somewhat dishonest on their part otherwise.

              4 votes
    2. MimicSquid
      Link Parent
      Honestly, a high school class that talks about citizenship and how to be an adult. Having a governmental national consensus on what we expect a citizen to do and how they should act is probably...

      Honestly, a high school class that talks about citizenship and how to be an adult. Having a governmental national consensus on what we expect a citizen to do and how they should act is probably better than offloading that duty onto talk show hosts and self-help coaches.

      4 votes
    3. [3]
      Litmus2336
      Link Parent
      I don't really think this is a policy problem, I don't think there's one thing that can be "done".

      I don't really think this is a policy problem, I don't think there's one thing that can be "done".

      3 votes
      1. Rez
        Link Parent
        I ask because if we're at the point (Canada at least) of officially labeling it terrorism, then some idea of how to solve the problem at its root is probably merited. Especially since it's...

        I ask because if we're at the point (Canada at least) of officially labeling it terrorism, then some idea of how to solve the problem at its root is probably merited. Especially since it's home-grown. I'm not asking for a silver bullet, just thoughts.

        8 votes
      2. ohyran
        Link Parent
        I guess maybe better economy since that seems to be linked to it, would be one idea? Its way easier to radicalize people who have no trust in the future and who will risk any failure as they lack...

        I guess maybe better economy since that seems to be linked to it, would be one idea? Its way easier to radicalize people who have no trust in the future and who will risk any failure as they lack good safety nets.

        1 vote
    4. Kuromantis
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I'm a 14 year old who doesn't really understand relationships or intimacy (I even tried NNN the year I learned to fap) so I guess I'll pretend authority and project my wishes. Some form of social...

      I'm a 14 year old who doesn't really understand relationships or intimacy (I even tried NNN the year I learned to fap) so I guess I'll pretend authority and project my wishes.

      Some form of social education might be nice. (Albeit carrying this out before the wholesale destruction of religion or at least it's disembodiment from any sort of book and reducing it into a set of values is a damn risky bet) Hygienic education would be a must. Open sourcing the algorithms used in dating apps would certainly be helpful to enforce (or destroy) trust and accountability in these now-paramount apps. A lot more free time would be nice.

      3 votes