17 votes

Daily thread for news/updates/discussion of George Floyd protests - June 5

This thread is posted daily - please try to post relevant content in here, such as news, updates, opinion articles, etc. Especially significant updates may warrant a separate topic, but most should be posted here.

56 comments

  1. [13]
    Deimos
    Link
    All 57 of the members of the Buffalo Police Department's Emergency Response Team resigned from the unit today (but not from the police department), apparently in support of the two officers who...

    All 57 of the members of the Buffalo Police Department's Emergency Response Team resigned from the unit today (but not from the police department), apparently in support of the two officers who were suspended for pushing over and hospitalizing a 75-year-old man.

    @spit-evil-olive-tips and @Gaywallet were posting updates about that incident in yesterday's thread.

    17 votes
    1. [4]
      cfabbro
      Link Parent
      What the actual fuck... that video of the old man getting shoved and smacking his head was one of the worst things I have seen since the video of George Floyd's death, and these assholes have the...

      What the actual fuck... that video of the old man getting shoved and smacking his head was one of the worst things I have seen since the video of George Floyd's death, and these assholes have the gall to resign in protest over the suspending (not firing or even charging!) of the officers who almost killed the poor man? So much for "a few bad apples", because I count 59 in this instance alone, 60 if you count the union rep.

      20 votes
      1. [3]
        Deimos
        Link Parent
        Yeah, what a statement too: As though there wasn't any other method they could have used, and there wasn't an extremely widely-seen video showing exactly what happened.

        Yeah, what a statement too:

        "Our position is these officers were simply following orders from Deputy Police Commissioner Joseph Gramaglia to clear the square," said Buffalo Police Benevolent Association President John Evans. "It doesn't specify clear the square of men, 50 and under or 15 to 40. They were simply doing their job. I don't know how much contact was made. He did slip in my estimation. He fell backwards."

        As though there wasn't any other method they could have used, and there wasn't an extremely widely-seen video showing exactly what happened.

        12 votes
        1. [2]
          cfabbro
          Link Parent
          "simply following orders".... hmmmm where have I heard that before? Oh, right! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders#Nuremberg_Trials_after_World_War_II Well, at least it's crystal clear...

          "simply following orders".... hmmmm where have I heard that before? Oh, right!
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders#Nuremberg_Trials_after_World_War_II

          Well, at least it's crystal clear who they should be compared to now.

          15 votes
          1. patience_limited
            Link Parent
            Here's the better part - they didn't quit the police force, they just relinquished their "Emergency Response Team" role, and will continue their regular policing duties. A large fraction of the...

            Here's the better part - they didn't quit the police force, they just relinquished their "Emergency Response Team" role, and will continue their regular policing duties. A large fraction of the Buffalo PD participated, though the article doesn't mention whether they received extra compensation to play paramilitary. It's arguable this is already an improvement in the Buffalo police force, though it might be best for everyone if they resigned altogether.

            13 votes
    2. [4]
      cfabbro
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Update - So I don't know how much I believe this given it's coming in the face of huge backlash for their actions, but apparently a few of the officers who resigned have claimed (anonymously, of...

      Update - So I don't know how much I believe this given it's coming in the face of huge backlash for their actions, but apparently a few of the officers who resigned have claimed (anonymously, of course) that the union rep misrepresented why they resigned.

      https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/exclusive-two-buffalo-police-ert-members-say-resignation-was-not-in-solidarity-with-suspended-officers

      “I don’t understand why the union said it’s a thing of solidarity. I think it sends the wrong message that ‘we’re backing our own’ and that’s not the case,” said one officer with whom we spoke.

      “We quit because our union said [they] aren’t legally backing us anymore. So why would we stand on a line for the City with no legal backing if something [were to] happen? Has nothing to do with us supporting,” said another.

      7 votes
      1. [2]
        vektor
        Link Parent
        What the actual fuck? So the police union gets to pick and choose whether they legally back their members? No obligation? They can just stop? And then when you inevitably take a step back at work,...

        What the actual fuck? So the police union gets to pick and choose whether they legally back their members? No obligation? They can just stop? And then when you inevitably take a step back at work, the union gets to fill in why you resigned? That kinda sounds like the union forcing you to strike.

        Assuming those officers aren't just backpedaling because of the backlash, of course.

        4 votes
        1. cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          IKR. There sure are a lot of "what the actual fuck" moments happening these days, aren't there? :( If what those officers claim is true, it sounds very much like they were all just baited/forced...

          IKR. There sure are a lot of "what the actual fuck" moments happening these days, aren't there? :(

          If what those officers claim is true, it sounds very much like they were all just baited/forced into resigning to make a political point about solidarity by the union. As I said, I don't know if I totally believe them given all their actions (and inaction) with the old man, and refusal to attach their names to these new claims... but if true that is a pretty disgusting move by the union.

          2 votes
      2. MonkeyPants
        Link Parent
        "I get paid to lie, and I lie against those who trust me. I don't understand why those I trust, would lie to protect their pay."

        "I get paid to lie, and I lie against those who trust me. I don't understand why those I trust, would lie to protect their pay."

    3. [3]
      Amarok
      Link Parent
      Haha, things are getting interesting. Cuomo aired that clip today in his daily briefing, condemned it, and reiterated his support for the suspensions. My expectation is that union is going to get...

      Haha, things are getting interesting. Cuomo aired that clip today in his daily briefing, condemned it, and reiterated his support for the suspensions. My expectation is that union is going to get busted hard and fast in this environment.

      If the blue wall of silence crowd thinks that closing ranks is going to help them on this they are in for a rude surprise. Ask the air traffic controllers how that worked for them in the 80s. ;)

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        patience_limited
        Link Parent
        Attacks on unionization don't thrill me in general, but police unions in many locales are functioning more like gangs than instruments of labor solidarity. There should be no contractual immunity...

        Attacks on unionization don't thrill me in general, but police unions in many locales are functioning more like gangs than instruments of labor solidarity. There should be no contractual immunity from the laws and policies they're supposedly enforcing, or from civilian human rights oversight.

        6 votes
        1. Amarok
          Link Parent
          Exactly. I've learned with unions you have to take them each as individual entities. Plenty of great ones, plenty of terrible ones, just like businesses and any other institution.

          Exactly. I've learned with unions you have to take them each as individual entities. Plenty of great ones, plenty of terrible ones, just like businesses and any other institution.

          7 votes
    4. teaearlgraycold
      Link Parent
      The officers in that video show a complete lack of empathy. I hope they end up in prison.

      The officers in that video show a complete lack of empathy. I hope they end up in prison.

      4 votes
  2. [2]
    Deimos
    Link
    Seattle's mayor and police chief have agreed to ban use of tear gas for at least the next 30 days
    14 votes
    1. spit-evil-olive-tips
      Link Parent
      This is after (as I posted about in a previous one of these daily threads) Seattle police used so much tear gas on Capitol Hill (one of our most densely populated neighborhoods) that it seeped...

      This is after (as I posted about in a previous one of these daily threads) Seattle police used so much tear gas on Capitol Hill (one of our most densely populated neighborhoods) that it seeped into people's apartments.

      If I were a cynical asshole, and I am, I would read this as "we used up pretty much all our tear gas and there's a 30-day delay on getting more". Completely meaningless, paying lip service to reform.

      Also, since Seattle Times has a fairly hard paywall, here's an unpaywalled source about the 30 day ban.

      6 votes
  3. [4]
    Gaywallet
    Link
    Alexis Ohanian, co-founder of reddit, has resigned and pledged $1m to know your rights camp. As a part of his resignation he has urged the reddit board to fill his seat with a black candidate.

    Alexis Ohanian, co-founder of reddit, has resigned and pledged $1m to know your rights camp. As a part of his resignation he has urged the reddit board to fill his seat with a black candidate.

    11 votes
    1. [2]
      Deimos
      Link Parent
      Thread about this in ~tech as well: https://tild.es/pi2 (mention for @Autoxidation since you're obviously interested in the topic too)

      Thread about this in ~tech as well: https://tild.es/pi2

      (mention for @Autoxidation since you're obviously interested in the topic too)

      9 votes
      1. Autoxidation
        Link Parent
        I saw just after I posted that. Thanks!

        I saw just after I posted that. Thanks!

        4 votes
    2. Autoxidation
      Link Parent
      Wow, I'm impressed. Maybe there will be some real reform on reddit to combat hatred. I'm not counting on it through after the message from yesterday.

      Wow, I'm impressed. Maybe there will be some real reform on reddit to combat hatred. I'm not counting on it through after the message from yesterday.

      4 votes
  4. [2]
    spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    From the "you can't make this shit up" news dept: Family harassed in Forks after being accused of being members of Antifa Forks is a few hours outside Seattle (and probably most famous as the...

    From the "you can't make this shit up" news dept:

    Family harassed in Forks after being accused of being members of Antifa

    Forks is a few hours outside Seattle (and probably most famous as the setting for the Twilight books).

    Multi-racial family going camping in a converted school bus. Local citizens thought they were antifa members and felled trees to block the road to prevent them from escaping.

    11 votes
    1. thundergolfer
      Link Parent
      "Felled trees to block..." What! Incredible. Right-wing Americans are having their brains turned scrambled eggs that run on conspiracy theories and fear.

      "Felled trees to block..."

      What! Incredible. Right-wing Americans are having their brains turned scrambled eggs that run on conspiracy theories and fear.

      3 votes
  5. [3]
    spit-evil-olive-tips
    (edited )
    Link
    Columbus, OH: woman with asthma dies after police attacked protesters using tear gas her name was Sarah Grossman. rest in power. we need a nationwide ban on use of tear gas by police.

    Columbus, OH: woman with asthma dies after police attacked protesters using tear gas

    her name was Sarah Grossman. rest in power.

    we need a nationwide ban on use of tear gas by police.

    11 votes
    1. cfabbro
      Link Parent
      There was an /r/AskHistorians post yesterday asking why chemical weapons were banned in war, but not banned for use in riot control, that is worth reading:...

      There was an /r/AskHistorians post yesterday asking why chemical weapons were banned in war, but not banned for use in riot control, that is worth reading:
      https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/gwtj89/the_chemical_weapons_convention_1993_has/

      I don't agree with the justifications mentioned in there, but you can't fault the historians there for simply explaining the rationale.

      8 votes
    2. Omnicrola
      Link Parent
      This was a new phrase to me, I heard it multiple times earlier today when I was listening to a town hall type conversation on social change. So I googled around, found a good article outlining the...

      rest in power.

      This was a new phrase to me, I heard it multiple times earlier today when I was listening to a town hall type conversation on social change. So I googled around, found a good article outlining the history of the phrase : https://slate.com/culture/2019/09/rest-in-power-phrase-history-appropriation-black-activists.html

      5 votes
  6. [2]
    Deimos
    Link
    Negotiators for the city of Minneapolis agreed with the state Friday to ban the use of chokeholds by police and to require officers to report and intervene anytime they see an unauthorized use of...
    10 votes
    1. MonkeyPants
      Link Parent
      So... the police are required to uphold the law now? That is entirely underwhelming and disspiriting.

      So... the police are required to uphold the law now? That is entirely underwhelming and disspiriting.

      9 votes
  7. skybrian
    Link
    Why Ta-Nehisi Coates is hopeful

    Why Ta-Nehisi Coates is hopeful

    I can’t believe I’m gonna say this, but I see hope. I see progress right now, at this moment.

    I had an interesting call on Saturday with my dad, who was born in 1946, grew up dirt poor in Philadelphia, lived in a truck, went off to Vietnam, came back, joined the Panther Party, and was in Baltimore for the 1968 riots. Would’ve been about 22 at that time.

    I asked him if he could compare what he saw in 1968 to what he was seeing now. And what he said to me was there was no comparison — that this is much more sophisticated. And I say, well, what do you mean? He said it would have been like if somebody from the turn of the 20th century could see the March on Washington.

    The idea that black folks in their struggle against the way the law is enforced in their neighborhoods would resonate with white folks in Des Moines, Iowa, in Salt Lake City, in Berlin, in London — that was unfathomable to him in ‘68, when it was mostly black folks in their own communities registering their great anger and great pain.

    I don’t want to overstate this, but there are significant swaths of people and communities that are not black, that to some extent have some perception of what that pain and that suffering is. I think that’s different.

    10 votes
  8. [2]
    cfabbro
    Link
    George Floyd protests created a surge in voter registrations, groups say
    8 votes
    1. patience_limited
      Link Parent
      I'm really hopeful about this. In addition to voter registration and advocacy for voting following the George Floyd protests, the minuscule silver lining to COVID-19 has been the surge in mail-in...

      I'm really hopeful about this. In addition to voter registration and advocacy for voting following the George Floyd protests, the minuscule silver lining to COVID-19 has been the surge in mail-in ballot registration.

      Locally, there's an initiative to broadcast the opportunity to register for permanent absentee voting. Nationwide, there are multiple initiatives for mail-in voting that can help overcome racist ballot-box obstacles like this one, among many that defined Trump's "victory". Fingers-crossed that the U.S. has a more genuinely democratic election in November 2020.

      7 votes
  9. moocow1452
    Link
    Supreme Court asked to reconsider immunity available to police accused of brutality

    Supreme Court asked to reconsider immunity available to police accused of brutality

    The court could announce as soon as Monday whether it will accept for argument next term challenges to a doctrine called qualified immunity.
    ...

    An extraordinary coalition of organizations on the left, right and middle — one federal judge called it “perhaps the most diverse amici ever assembled” — has called on the court to revisit the issue.

    And so have two members of the court itself — Justices Clarence Thomas and Sonia Sotomayor, who represent opposite ideological wings of the court.

    6 votes
  10. cfabbro
    (edited )
    Link
    Trump invokes George Floyd's name while taking economic victory lap How dare he. What a massive piece of shit. I couldn't help but shout out loud, "Fuck you!" when I heard Trump say this, even...

    Trump invokes George Floyd's name while taking economic victory lap

    "We all saw what happened last week. We can't let that happen. Hopefully George is looking down and saying this is a great thing that's happening for our country. (It's) a great day for him. It's a great day for everybody," Trump said during a White House Rose Garden event before signing a piece of legislation devoted to small business loan flexibility.

    "This is a great, great day in terms of equality," Trump added.

    How dare he. What a massive piece of shit. I couldn't help but shout out loud, "Fuck you!" when I heard Trump say this, even though I was alone in my apartment.

    6 votes
  11. [4]
    cfabbro
    Link
    From yesterday, but still worth noting: Trump Agrees to Send Home Troops From Washington, Easing Tensions With the Pentagon

    From yesterday, but still worth noting:
    Trump Agrees to Send Home Troops From Washington, Easing Tensions With the Pentagon

    President Trump agreed on Thursday to begin sending home 82nd Airborne Division troops he had ordered to Washington, temporarily easing a contentious standoff with the Pentagon over the role of the armed forces in quelling protests that have broken out across the nation.

    None of the active-duty forces ever actually deployed in Washington, instead remaining on alert outside the city while National Guard troops took up position near the White House and elsewhere around town. But they became caught up in a confrontation pitting a commander in chief intent on demonstrating strength in the face of street demonstrations versus a military command resistant to being drawn into domestic law enforcement or election year politics.

    Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper initially tried to send home a small portion of the 1,600 active-duty troops on Wednesday, only to have Mr. Trump order him to reverse course during an angry meeting. The president finally acquiesced on Thursday, according to an administration official who asked not to be named discussing internal deliberations, but it did not appear the two men spoke directly.

    5 votes
    1. [3]
      patience_limited
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      That's not stopping the use of federal agents with police powers, from the DEA, Homeland Security (ICE and CBP), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, Bureau of Prisons, FBI, etc. There's way...

      That's not stopping the use of federal agents with police powers, from the DEA, Homeland Security (ICE and CBP), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, Bureau of Prisons, FBI, etc.

      There's way too much legally-authorized Executive branch control of militarized police powers, and way too many authoritarians in those agencies.

      Edit: Additional details here

      5 votes
      1. cfabbro
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        NYT did a story on all the unidentified police/soldiers being brought into Washington yesterday too, and apparently even the Democrats are largely in the dark about specifically who they all are:...

        NYT did a story on all the unidentified police/soldiers being brought into Washington yesterday too, and apparently even the Democrats are largely in the dark about specifically who they all are:
        https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/us/politics/unidentified-police-protests.html

        Congressional Democrats say the administration’s use of ambiguous tactical teams is infringing on the rights of the protesters. Senators Chuck Schumer of New York, the Democratic leader, and Christopher S. Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut, introduced legislation mandating that law enforcement officers and members of the armed forces identify themselves and their agency.

        In a letter to Mr. Trump on Thursday, Ms. Pelosi asked for details identifying the law enforcement and military agencies that had been deployed across the capital to police the protests.

        8 votes
      2. MonkeyPants
        Link Parent
        I haven't heard anything about unmasking lately. Silver lining to some very dark clouds?

        I haven't heard anything about unmasking lately. Silver lining to some very dark clouds?

  12. patience_limited
    Link
    Pointed commentary on policing here: https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2020/06/04/policing-wont-solve-our-problems/ While the immediate outcome of the George Floyd protests may be some police...

    Pointed commentary on policing here: https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2020/06/04/policing-wont-solve-our-problems/

    While the immediate outcome of the George Floyd protests may be some police oversight and training reform, we need to pay attention to the broader picture in the U.S. and elsewhere. It's not just the U.S. that has color and economic class hierarchy problems, aggravated by public disinvestment and deregulation.

    It's fair to say that police have taken much of the burden of impoverished mental health, education, recreation, and other public services; geographical and racial poverty from deindustrialization; and in the U.S., ubiquitous guns.

    It's astonishing what a microscopic investment in mental health alone could achieve. In my very brief service with Crisis Text Line, a charity with a $37 million (2018) annual budget, I've already had the opportunity to talk down someone desiring to act in a way likely to result in suicide-by-cop. As recent stories of police killings in Canada illustrate, these deaths are too common, predictable, and preventable.

    In other news, for those not able to participate in the protests, Rep. Stacey Abrams had some choice words for action in her New York Times essay yesterday.

    5 votes
  13. [2]
    Gaywallet
    Link
    Found the full speech by someone I posted yesterday; definitely worth a listen if you have concerns about looting
    5 votes
  14. [6]
    NaraVara
    Link
    Is the meltdown within the NY Times in scope for this thread or should it just be its own thing? It's related to the topic but kind of tangential and more about the extreme slide in quality and...

    Is the meltdown within the NY Times in scope for this thread or should it just be its own thing? It's related to the topic but kind of tangential and more about the extreme slide in quality and responsibility of the Times Opinion page. That manifested recently as a result of the protests, but it'll be a story long after as well.

    5 votes
    1. [2]
      Deimos
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Hard to say—I thought it was significant enough that I posted a separate thread about it yesterday too: https://tild.es/ph2 Comments in there (or here) with follow-ups/more info would be great...

      Hard to say—I thought it was significant enough that I posted a separate thread about it yesterday too: https://tild.es/ph2

      Comments in there (or here) with follow-ups/more info would be great too, I'm definitely interested in the situation myself.

      4 votes
      1. NaraVara
        Link Parent
        What I find interesting about this one is Bennet trying to back pedal by saying he didn't actually read or review the article before publishing it. I don't understand how this guy still has a job.

        What I find interesting about this one is Bennet trying to back pedal by saying he didn't actually read or review the article before publishing it. I don't understand how this guy still has a job.

        4 votes
    2. [3]
      patience_limited
      Link Parent
      I ran across some backstory on Senator Cotton, which incidentally mentions how his network of right-wing connections via Bill Krystol got his op-ed piece in The New York Times:

      I ran across some backstory on Senator Cotton, which incidentally mentions how his network of right-wing connections via Bill Krystol got his op-ed piece in The New York Times:

      The Weekly Standard connection helped Cotton with the latest caper: publishing an op-ed in The New York Times on Wednesday calling for the use of the American military to quell rioters against police violence. The column was shepherded into print by Adam Rubenstein, a 25-year-old editor who previously worked at The Weekly Standard.

      3 votes
      1. [2]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        Tom Cotton is definitely running for the Republican nomination in 2024, mark my words.

        Tom Cotton is definitely running for the Republican nomination in 2024, mark my words.

        5 votes
        1. thundergolfer
          Link Parent
          Him and Senator Josh Hawley appear to be the 'young' stars of the Republican Party, ready to lead white supremacist America once Trump and McConnell bite it.

          Him and Senator Josh Hawley appear to be the 'young' stars of the Republican Party, ready to lead white supremacist America once Trump and McConnell bite it.

          2 votes
  15. Autoxidation
    Link
    Attended the protest in my city today. It felt good and was entirely peaceful. Surprisingly well run and coordinated in a very short period of time, as I saw the invite go up on social media on...

    Attended the protest in my city today. It felt good and was entirely peaceful. Surprisingly well run and coordinated in a very short period of time, as I saw the invite go up on social media on Wednesday. There were people handing out masks and water along the path through the street, people on bikes stopping traffic for the protest march, 99% of people that attended were wearing masks despite the 86 F/30 C weather. The police didn't interfere at all, didn't even see them until the end when they were blocking traffic on one of the larger streets.

    5 votes
  16. skybrian
    Link
    Here's an argument that health officials have lost all authority, regardless of what happens: From: Social distancing is over

    Here's an argument that health officials have lost all authority, regardless of what happens:

    It may seem obvious to you that ending police brutality rises to a level of importance that, say, church services don’t. But the impossibility of rank-ordering competing ideas about what is “most important” is the reason liberal democracy had to be invented. If you were a religious believer, you might rank church higher; if you were about to lose your house unless your business reopened, you might put nail salons high up on the list.

    As individuals, we can make those distinctions. But our authorities may not except on broadly neutral terms. Some public officials seem to imagine that if they can distinguish between selling food and offering Communion, they must also have the authority to make even finer distinctions: allowing people to exercise their First Amendment right to protest police brutality, while circumscribing their First Amendment right to worship in public. Legally, I doubt it, but I’m quite positive that courts won’t let governments distinguish between assembling to protest police brutality and assembling to protest public health policy.

    From: Social distancing is over

    5 votes
  17. [2]
    cfabbro
    Link
    https://twitter.com/MayorBowser/status/1268928589975695361 (has video showing street sign being put up) Another great tweet from her too: https://twitter.com/MayorBowser/status/1269121684268818438

    Mayor Muriel Bowser - The section of 16th street in front of the White House is now officially “Black Lives Matter Plaza”.

    https://twitter.com/MayorBowser/status/1268928589975695361
    (has video showing street sign being put up)

    Another great tweet from her too:
    https://twitter.com/MayorBowser/status/1269121684268818438

    4 votes
  18. [2]
    Autoxidation
    (edited )
    Link
    There's a pretty great post about the failure of Reddit to address hatred on the website, as a response to the Reddit statement about ongoing events. If you didn't read it, I'd recommend doing so.

    There's a pretty great post about the failure of Reddit to address hatred on the website, as a response to the Reddit statement about ongoing events. If you didn't read it, I'd recommend doing so.

    2 votes
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. Autoxidation
        Link Parent
        Whoops, fixed. Thanks for catching that.

        Whoops, fixed. Thanks for catching that.

        2 votes
  19. [3]
    skybrian
    Link
    Pentagon disarms National Guard activated in D.C., sends active-duty forces home [...]

    Pentagon disarms National Guard activated in D.C., sends active-duty forces home

    The White House was not involved in the decision to disarm the Guard, said the two senior officials, who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations. The order from the Pentagon comes as federal and district officials prepare for an estimated 100,000 to 200,000 protesters in Washington on Saturday and as the Pentagon looks to dial back the militarization of the response.

    [...]

    A senior U.S. defense official said Esper communicated the order to disarm to the D.C. Guard and other guardsmen earlier in the week through McCarthy and Gen. Joseph L. Lengyel, the head of the National Guard. The order affected only about 10 guardsmen who had been out on patrol with firearms that weren’t loaded but who had ammunition in their packs, the senior defense official said.

    2 votes
    1. [2]
      Amarok
      Link Parent
      Good to see we still have some adults in charge somewhere in DC.

      Good to see we still have some adults in charge somewhere in DC.

      1 vote
      1. cfabbro
        Link Parent
        Yeah, and given how vindictive Trump is to anyone who defies him, and how much he has tried to stack the deck with "yes men" over the years, that there are still some people in charge under him...

        Yeah, and given how vindictive Trump is to anyone who defies him, and how much he has tried to stack the deck with "yes men" over the years, that there are still some people in charge under him who are willing to break ranks with him, has restored some of my faith in the US.

        1 vote