49 votes

Portland protesters say federal officers in unmarked vans are detaining them

18 comments

  1. [7]
    spit-evil-olive-tips
    Link
    Coverage in the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/17/us/portland-protests.html Secret military police being deployed to "protect statues and monuments". At what point does this cross the...

    Coverage in the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/17/us/portland-protests.html

    The agents in Portland are part of “rapid deployment teams” put together by the Department of Homeland Security after Mr. Trump directed federal agencies to deploy additional personnel to protect statues, monuments and federal property during the continuing unrest.

    Secret military police being deployed to "protect statues and monuments".

    At what point does this cross the rubicon into Actual Fascism?

    Governor Brown said in an interview that she asked the acting homeland security secretary, Chad F. Wolf, to remove federal officials from the streets and that he refused.

    Something tells me I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for conservatives & libertarians who believe in "limited federal government" and "states' rights" to start condemning this.

    From a tweet thread, emphasis added:

    Folks snatched by Feds in unmarked vans seem to have a common experience. They're taken by un-ID'd men in fatigues, driven around blind and restrained for over an hour, coerced, photo'd, then released. Details+link in thread

    This is in Portland. Portland isn't that big, and the justice center they're being taken to is downtown, as are most of the protests.

    This is clearly driving people around blindfolded for an extended amount of time as a deliberate strategy to intimidate and terrorize.

    20 votes
    1. [4]
      Turtle
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      top of r/libertarian at time of posting (8k+ upvotes): You are not libertarian if you support secret federal police abducting people tons of other posts condemning it too. I think you meant "I...

      Something tells me I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for conservatives & libertarians who believe in "limited federal government" and "states' rights" to start condemning this.

      top of r/libertarian at time of posting (8k+ upvotes):
      You are not libertarian if you support secret federal police abducting people
      tons of other posts condemning it too.

      I think you meant "I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for my idea of what a libertarian is as presented by my media filter bubble ... to start condemning this".

      not a libertarian but jeez...

      14 votes
      1. [2]
        tlalexander
        Link Parent
        Yep. The more I learn about libertarianism from people who actually read the theory, the more I realize how often people straw man them and just don’t understand. I’m still surprised from when my...

        Yep. The more I learn about libertarianism from people who actually read the theory, the more I realize how often people straw man them and just don’t understand. I’m still surprised from when my libertarian roommate said federal hospitals should go to the workers because they’re the ones doing the work to keep them going. It’s like... okay you’re not what I thought.

        7 votes
        1. ohyran
          Link Parent
          Libertarianism is also extremely broad (the subreddit posted is right-libertarian for example) and like a lot of things it comes in grades and levels, with different motivations and ideological...

          Libertarianism is also extremely broad (the subreddit posted is right-libertarian for example) and like a lot of things it comes in grades and levels, with different motivations and ideological base ideals.

          Worth remembering

          5 votes
      2. JoylessAubergine
        Link Parent
        It's also the headline story on Reason.com a Libertarian magazine, along with a bunch of reports on police militarisation.

        It's also the headline story on Reason.com a Libertarian magazine, along with a bunch of reports on police militarisation.

        4 votes
    2. j3n
      Link Parent
      Huh? Where are you getting "military" from?

      Secret military police

      Huh? Where are you getting "military" from?

      1 vote
  2. [4]
    MonkeyPants
    Link
    I used to think warnings that Trump was an autocrat were exaggerations. "Land of the free" my ass.

    I used to think warnings that Trump was an autocrat were exaggerations.

    "Land of the free" my ass.

    14 votes
    1. [2]
      NaraVara
      Link Parent
      One of the problems with only defining fascism as the worst stuff the Nazis did was it cemented in people’s imaginations the idea that fascism is defined by its end-state instead of all the steps...

      One of the problems with only defining fascism as the worst stuff the Nazis did was it cemented in people’s imaginations the idea that fascism is defined by its end-state instead of all the steps it takes to get there. I can’t count the number of people I’ve had jumping down my throat about how calling him authoritarian or proto-fascist was being “alarmist.” It’s clear the worst things didn’t happen because of the alarmism and were still getting. . .this.

      19 votes
      1. patience_limited
        Link Parent
        The most horrible authoritarian states started with patient incrementalism while consolidating power. It helps if the originating systems of authority already had some bloat, overreach, and...

        The most horrible authoritarian states started with patient incrementalism while consolidating power. It helps if the originating systems of authority already had some bloat, overreach, and excessive impunity.

        All it takes is a few ambitious bastards to start tightening the screws in the interests of an authoritarian leader - Beria, Himmler, and a host of other secret police heads around the world.

        The evolution of the Nazi security apparatus from the Hindenburg system makes for interesting reading in this respect.

        10 votes
    2. Gaywallet
      Link Parent
      I figured that people in power would object on moral grounds to this kind of behavior. I thought we as a country had come further than this. I guess I should have known better because history has...

      I figured that people in power would object on moral grounds to this kind of behavior. I thought we as a country had come further than this.

      I guess I should have known better because history has proven that there will always be other fascists to carry out fascist orders.

      11 votes
  3. [2]
    Douglas
    Link
    Our current mayor (PDXer here) has a reputation for being a lame duck/not doing anything progressive, and sadly hasn't changed at all since this kicked off. Thought I admit I do not know what is...

    Our current mayor (PDXer here) has a reputation for being a lame duck/not doing anything progressive, and sadly hasn't changed at all since this kicked off. Thought I admit I do not know what is within his power to do about it, I just want him to be a bit more.... firm, about his not liking the fed's presence here.

    It's bad enough where I have to assume he's more complicit than against it; I'm just done giving benefit of the doubt to politicians and have started paying more attention to their "non-speak" than what they do speak out against.

    As for the protests, my wife and I went to the George Floyd vigil last month and immediately quarantined (more hardcore than usual/no leaving the apt even for groceries) for two weeks since they did not socially distance, but have since wrestled with "should we go back out there/join them?' versus "but there's a pandemic!" -- so far we've settled on just donating to bailout funds and volunteering remotely where we can.

    9 votes
    1. Gaywallet
      Link Parent
      Because I see this a lot, and it was actually one of my major concerns when the protests started, I would like to share with you the following scientific paper: Black Lives Matter Protests, Social...

      Because I see this a lot, and it was actually one of my major concerns when the protests started, I would like to share with you the following scientific paper: Black Lives Matter Protests, Social Distancing, and COVID-19

      The abstract is as follows:

      Sparked by the killing of George Floyd in police custody, the 2020 Black Lives Matter protests have brought a new wave of attention to the issue of inequality within criminal justice. However, many public health officials have warned that mass protests could lead to a reduction in social distancing behavior, spurring a resurgence of COVID-19. This study uses newly collected data on protests in 315 of the largest U.S. cities to estimate the impacts of mass protests on social distancing and COVID-19 case growth. Event-study analyses provide strong evidence that net stay-at-home behavior increased following protest onset, consistent with the hypothesis that non-protesters’ behavior was substantially affected by urban protests. This effect was not fully explained by the imposition of city curfews. Estimated effects were generally larger for persistent protests and those accompanied by media reports of violence. Furthermore, we find no evidence that urban protests reignited COVID-19 case growth during the more than three weeks following protest onset. We conclude that predictions of broad negative public health consequences of Black Lives Matter protests were far too narrowly conceived.

      If you'd prefer to read an article on this study, I find vox's analysis to be a decent explanation.

      4 votes
  4. patience_limited
    Link
    Oh, cool, Geheime Staatspolitzei cosplayers! /s But seriously, these are incidents of state terror taken directly from the authoritarian playbook. The people who've been targeted this way are in...

    Oh, cool, Geheime Staatspolitzei cosplayers! /s

    But seriously, these are incidents of state terror taken directly from the authoritarian playbook. The people who've been targeted this way are in wholly justifiable fear for their lives. It's a very short step from being snatched off the streets in unmarked vehicles by unidentified authorities, to the kind of indefinite political imprisonment or permanent disappearance that have characterized authoritarian policing for the past century.

    5 votes
  5. Kuromantis
    Link
    From this comment So how's the "fully prepared" thing going? Because the increasingly desperate moves are following through like egg yolk thru a tube. Anyway I'm not sure how I slept last night.

    From this comment

    What we know about authoritarians is that they do not go gently into that good night. What we know about narcissists is that they cannot permit themselves to "lose" or be "slighted." Both of those mean that a cornered Trump will be more dangerous than ever. We should be fully prepared for increasingly desperate moves from him, and he will be enabled by Republicans who depend on a lot of these habits to stay in power.

    The Governor of George Georgia is already planning on cancelling an election and just appointing a judgeship himself. We should not take for granted that Trump will allow a fair election, that these elections will not have the Klan and ICE officers engaging in voter intimidation at polling stations, that ballots won't be stuffed, or that Trump will willingly relinquish power and respect the results of an election if he loses.

    So how's the "fully prepared" thing going? Because the increasingly desperate moves are following through like egg yolk thru a tube.

    Anyway I'm not sure how I slept last night.

    3 votes
  6. thundergolfer
    (edited )
    Link
    Is this the point at which everyone who isn't a hardline Trumpist realises that the Republican Party is now and for all time going forward an illegitimate institution? The party should not be...

    Is this the point at which everyone who isn't a hardline Trumpist realises that the Republican Party is now and for all time going forward an illegitimate institution? The party should not be reformed. It should be consigned to the history books to live in permanent disgrace.

    Now that Biden is looking very strong in the polls, liberals are already starting to explore the shape of a post-Trump Republican Party. Apparently, reform is in order, but given what we've seen reform is a frankly stupid thing to consider. Don't entertain the idea of giving would-be Fascists a second chance at power.

    3 votes