17 votes

Owners of a US B&B have removed a Norwegian flag from outside their business after being accused of promoting racism from people who thought it was a Confederate flag

37 comments

  1. [2]
    Deimos
    (edited )
    Link
    I'm not actually going to remove this because it's Sunday (the least active day on Tildes), I'm not around much today, and it really doesn't matter anyway, but let's please try to avoid submitting...

    I'm not actually going to remove this because it's Sunday (the least active day on Tildes), I'm not around much today, and it really doesn't matter anyway, but let's please try to avoid submitting (or voting on and giving attention to) this kind of low-quality, outrage-bait content.

    This is a story based entirely around a Facebook post from a random B&B in a town with a population of about 8000. It's never going to impact anyone or anything significant, and the only reason anyone cares is because of the "lol, those people are dumb!" superiority/outrage aspects of stories like this.

    Euronews is probably rewriting this story from when it was in The Daily Mail the day before, which should be a hint of what type and quality of a story it is. The Daily Mail version could even be considered a better treatment with more info. It's embarrassing for something like this to be the post with the most votes and comments on the site today, and just shows that we're eager to fall into the same biases as everywhere else on the internet. Ideally we wouldn't need to rely on moderation to forcibly stop that from happening here too.

    41 votes
    1. ohyran
      Link Parent
      This is a fascinating comment and it's kept me thinking about this for two hours this morning about this second wave of new reporting in the age of social media - not gotten anywhere in my brain...

      This is a fascinating comment and it's kept me thinking about this for two hours this morning about this second wave of new reporting in the age of social media - not gotten anywhere in my brain though but damn fascinating mental rabbit hole to get in to.

      Just as an aside and a form of applause.

      6 votes
  2. [9]
    Loire
    Link
    Lest we think that ignorance is exclusive to the right in America, I suppose.

    Lest we think that ignorance is exclusive to the right in America, I suppose.

    11 votes
    1. [8]
      arp242
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      People are people; it's not like the left is immune to ignorance, fake news, bias, or anything like that. Unfortunately, it's easy to fool yourself in to thinking so when the other side is so...

      People are people; it's not like the left is immune to ignorance, fake news, bias, or anything like that. Unfortunately, it's easy to fool yourself in to thinking so when the other side is so unbelievably steeped in all of these things.

      Actually, one of my great fears of the Trump presidency is that it will radicalize the left, leaving no "cooler heads" in the debate. To some degree, we've already seen this happen unfortunately, and this incident is part of a pattern that's been developing for a few years.

      9 votes
      1. [7]
        Adys
        Link Parent
        I'm sure a lot of people here on Tildes will read your comment and nod, so I'd like to remind some of them that they will be the first ones to cry wolf and yell that "centrism is bad" and a...

        one of my great fears of the Trump presidency is that it will radicalize the left, leaving no "cooler heads" in the debate. To some degree, we've already seen this happen unfortunately, and this incident is part of a pattern that's been developing for a few years.

        I'm sure a lot of people here on Tildes will read your comment and nod, so I'd like to remind some of them that they will be the first ones to cry wolf and yell that "centrism is bad" and a variety of other debate-ending platitudes.

        Of course this particular headline is nothing I'd actually expect the people here on Tildes to fall for, but I feel like it's important to keep ourselves in check and remember that it's not just "yeah, there's crazies out there"; all types of extremism start small and begets escalation.

        6 votes
        1. [6]
          arp242
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Yeah, my comment was in no way supposed to be some sort of ENLIGHTENED CENTRISM, although re-reading it I can see how it can be interpreted as such. I posted on /r/FuckTheAltRight years ago; after...

          Yeah, my comment was in no way supposed to be some sort of ENLIGHTENED CENTRISM, although re-reading it I can see how it can be interpreted as such.

          I posted on /r/FuckTheAltRight years ago; after the Las Vegas shooting a lot of people were quick to assume it was some sort of extreme-right terror attack, in spite that there was no evidence for this – there still isn't, the motivations remain a mystery and will likely never be known – but people assumed anyway. When I pointed out the lack of evidence I mostly got hostile replies. I eventually got permanently banned (my only ban I ever received in my life) because people were saying "Trump is literally Hitler", and I said "well, not quite".

          I mean, Hitler was a genocidal maniac who assassinated his political enemies, instituted racial laws, invaded several countries, caused a major war, and killed over 12 million people in an organised genocidal campaign. I don't like Trump one bit, but any comparisons to Hitler are disgustingly offensive and ignorant.

          Or take the whole Trump/Russia collusion investigation. I said for years that we need to be very careful with harsh accusations, because while I have no doubt that Trump would have no moral scrupulous in involving foreign agents to win the election, the evidence that he actually did so was never all that substantial; maybe there is evidence, but better to exercise caution. In general, few people seemed to agree with this take. And then Mueller Report came out and... yeah, I told you so. We all looked like fools, and it fed back in to the whole right-wing persecution complex. There are still people who insist Trump colluded with Russia. Does this remind you of Benghazi and "but her emails…"? Sure does to me (there are differences too, I'm sure Trump would have done so if he had the opportunity, but there is no evidence he did so in spite of an extensive investigation and beating the dead horse is achieving nothing of worth)

          And then there's the social issues, where if you don't 100% say the correct things you run the risk of getting bullied, attacked, harassed, and so forth. I mean, I'm all for calling out sexists, homophobes, racists, transphobes, and so forth, but not everyone who is a bit wrong or made an awkward joke is a terribly evil person, and they don't all deserve to lose their jobs or whatnot over it ... have some empathy.

          The last time I took the political compass I was in the bottom-left corner. This is a really crude test of course, but it goes to show that I don't have a lot of sympathies with right-wing politics. However, I'm also very much in favour of an empathic understanding that there are people with different world-views, priorities, and ideas. And that by and large, most people really want the same things: a happy life, health and financial security for themselves and their loved ones, and so forth. They just have some different ideas on how to achieve that. Fair enough.

          In spite of my strong left leanings, I've found myself increasingly at odds with fellow leftists over all sorts of issues in the last few years, often over matters where people are far too quick to jump to conclusions, assume malice, simply don't understand the opposing viewpoint, and so forth. Attempting to insert nuance is not infrequently met with strong hostility, to the point where I mostly stopped trying to do so. I'm not saying I'm always correct or anything (I'm not), but I usually do take effort to write things carefully and non-confrontational (not always succeeding though). I'll happily debate people of all political leanings – something I even enjoy doing – but what I don't enjoy is being insulted, shouted down, treated like an idiot, assumed to be a *-ist, and so forth. Yet increasingly, this is what's happening. I think this is a big problem, and I fear it's going to get (much) worse in the coming years.

          Many of the priorities seem ... just wrong to me. Impeaching Trump, trans-friendly bathrooms, bakers refusing to serve a gay couple, confederate statues ... I all more or less agree with it I guess, but it's really not all that important that a bunch of hilbillies in Mississippi are in a love-affair with their Robert E. Lee statue and don't like gay people. There are so many things we can do that will significantly improve the living standard of tens of millions of people and that will directly and meaningfully impact people. Let's do that, instead, and worry about those fairly minor things later, if we still need to. You can't legislate morality. Do you think Europe got to where it is by legislating morality? Fuck no. Basic needs like decent housing, income, health, and so forth have to come first. And when people are comfortable and secure instead of afraid and scared the social stuff will follow. Damn I hoped Bernie would win, because he definitely had it by the right end of the stick on that.

          Of course, those are also really hard problems so it's easy to call out some transphobic idiot and call Trump literally Hitler, so let's do that instead and pat ourselves on the back for being such a progressive! Well, at least people are focusing on the policing issue now, which is exactly the sort of thing people should be focusing on, so perhaps there is hope yet (although this debate, too, has happened with a disconcerting lack of nuance).


          I rather like the word "toxic" for, well, toxic people, because they bring down the quality of people around them and/or the entire conversation; it’s toxic in the sense that it spreads. Trump is deeply toxic because and has brought down the entire public debate. This was part of a pattern that has been going on for a while, but Trump really solidified it.

          At any rate, I didn't intend this to turn in to a long list of complaints about the left, but my disappointment with the left – and American liberals in particular – is quite large. People are throwing in their own windows (actually, they're my windows too!) and in denial about it.

          4 votes
          1. [5]
            Kuromantis
            Link Parent
            Hold on, what? But Trump has supported Putin by lifting sanctions on him, calling him a strong leader, letting them put bounties on American soldiers, etc. Do you mean he didn't collude with his...

            Take the whole Trump/Russia collusion investigation. I said for years that we need to be very careful with harsh accusations, because while I have no doubt that Trump would have no moral scrupulous in involving foreign agents to win the election, the evidence that he actually did so was never all that substantial; maybe there is evidence, but better to exercise caution. In general, few people seemed to agree with this take. And then Mueller Report came out and... yeah, I told you so. We all looked like fools, and it fed back in to the whole right-wing persecution complex. There are still people who insist Trump colluded with Russia. Does this remind you of Benghazi and "but her emails…"? Sure does to me (there are differences too, I'm sure Trump would have done so if he had the opportunity, but there is no evidence he did so in spite of an extensive investigation and beating the dead horse is achieving nothing of worth)

            Hold on, what? But Trump has supported Putin by lifting sanctions on him, calling him a strong leader, letting them put bounties on American soldiers, etc. Do you mean he didn't collude with his campaign? Which seems fair given a campaign can fail.

            5 votes
            1. [4]
              arp242
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              Trump says Trump things, and lifting the sanctions was probably unwise (maybe? Not sure how I feel about sanctions in the first place, but that's an entire different discussion) but none of that...

              Trump says Trump things, and lifting the sanctions was probably unwise (maybe? Not sure how I feel about sanctions in the first place, but that's an entire different discussion) but none of that is evidence of a conspiracy. As far as I know there is no strong evidence of conspiracy/collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. Not that several aspects aren't worrying about the entire affair, both the setup and the way Trump handled the investigation, but let's not jump the gun, either.

              4 votes
              1. [3]
                kfwyre
                Link Parent
                cc: @Kuromantis You might be interested in Matt Taibbi's take on the whole Trump/Russia collusion investigation where he widely condemns both the press and the public for jumping to conclusions.

                cc: @Kuromantis

                You might be interested in Matt Taibbi's take on the whole Trump/Russia collusion investigation where he widely condemns both the press and the public for jumping to conclusions.

                5 votes
                1. [2]
                  arp242
                  Link Parent
                  That's a pretty good article, thanks. My comment would probably have been a lot more appropriate as a comment under that story, but ah well. I don't quite agree with the author that the bad...

                  That's a pretty good article, thanks. My comment would probably have been a lot more appropriate as a comment under that story, but ah well.

                  I don't quite agree with the author that the bad reporting is ideologically motivated (not stated explicitly, but that's the impression I got). While there's plenty of that for sure – certainly on an individual reporter level – you have to remember that in the end newspapers are in the business of selling newspapers, and not selling truth, insight, democratic values, or anything else. They have strong incentives to print what sells. I don't think the frenzy is caused by the newspapers, but rather an effect, although the relationship between cause/effect here is not quite that simple, and there is a lot of feedback looping going on as well.

                  This is also hardly a phenomenon unique to our times. I'm reminded by British (and later, also American) press during the first world war, publishing wild tales about German corpse factories, impaling children, crucifying soldiers, nuns, and nurses, and a long list of similar completely outrageous nonsense. The public believed the press and when it later turned out it was all unsubstantiated rumours published as "truth" it massively discredited the press, and rightfully so. This fed back to the Nazi "German victim" propaganda and probably contributed to the German's disbelief of concentration camp rumours. There's a reason the Americans felt the need to show a great many Germans horrific footage of the concentration camps after the war.

                  Matt Taibbi seems to have some insightful stuff at a glance; I'll have to read some more of him. Aside: I wish to hell Christopher Hitchens was still alive.

                  Oh, one thing that stood out to me in particular:

                  Stories have been coming out for some time now hinting Mueller’s final report might leave audiences “disappointed,” as if a President not being a foreign spy could somehow be bad news.

                  Yeah, such a weird flex. I think a lot people really wanted Trump to be guilty as hell. I'm not going to lie; I kind of wanted it too, as I feel Trump is an absolute ... well, let's not go there. It's only human nature, but we should have our reason and rationality override to that, and not give in to our worst human impulses. So most of all what I wanted was ... the truth. And I'm fairly confident we got as close to that as reasonably possibly (there is always the possibility there is evidence that is not yet uncovered, you can't prove a negative after all, but as far as I know there are no real indications of this, and this way madness and unhinged conspiracy theories lie).

                  5 votes
                  1. kfwyre
                    Link Parent
                    This particular article is actually the culminating chapter in a book of essays he wrote on the press called Hate Inc., which very much addresses the financial incentives that you brought up. He's...

                    This particular article is actually the culminating chapter in a book of essays he wrote on the press called Hate Inc., which very much addresses the financial incentives that you brought up. He's a career journalist, so some of it is exposé and some of it is inside baseball, but it's altogether interesting, and he has a compelling and frank writing voice. If you liked this I think it's safe to say you'll like the book.

                    I can also recommend Griftopia which is about rampant fraud in the financial industry including a focus on the 2008 crash. His best book though (of the ones I've read), is The Divide, which is about the differences in perception and treatment of crime in America. High-level financial crime is not only not prosecuted to the same extent that lower-level crime is, but it's also not treated with the same level of social disdain, despite the fact that high-level financial crime often affects far more people with far worse effects.

                    5 votes
  3. [2]
    chas
    Link
    Sigh. This news item will probably result in the Norwegian flag becoming a new dog whistle for the American far right.

    Sigh. This news item will probably result in the Norwegian flag becoming a new dog whistle for the American far right.

    8 votes
    1. ThatFanficGuy
      Link Parent
      Trump did want people to come from those nice Scandinavian countries...

      Trump did want people to come from those nice Scandinavian countries...

      6 votes
  4. [20]
    Qis
    Link
    This happens because flags are dumb. I don't mean in the r/vexillology sense where it is imagined that "better flags" could communicate their symbols more potently, I mean that there is simply no...

    This happens because flags are dumb. I don't mean in the r/vexillology sense where it is imagined that "better flags" could communicate their symbols more potently, I mean that there is simply no expecting people to differentiate between x's and +'s on floppy signs.

    6 votes
    1. [19]
      Loire
      Link Parent
      Or... We could expect more of people since the difference between the Norwegian National Flag and the Confederate Battle Flag should be immediately noticable to anyone with a (non-American) third...

      Or... We could expect more of people since the difference between the Norwegian National Flag and the Confederate Battle Flag should be immediately noticable to anyone with a (non-American) third grade education. Besides the different colours, the different orientation of the crossing lines, the different length of each arm of the cross and the very noticable lack of clear as day stars?

      We don't need to remove everything the ignorant masses mix up. Perhaps we should strive for better education instead?

      20 votes
      1. [5]
        pallas
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I have to wonder whether, for all the general discussion here, the confusion was actually a consequence of the specific installation of the flag. I've been unable to find photographs for either...

        I have to wonder whether, for all the general discussion here, the confusion was actually a consequence of the specific installation of the flag. I've been unable to find photographs for either instance of this confusion in articles.

        As you note, when their designs are considered, the two flags are easily distinguishable, even to someone with no knowledge of either flag, or even no knowledge of the concept of flags in general. But that is when comparing the flag designs when they are fully visible.

        Yet if the Norwegian flag were on a vertical flagpole, in a position where there was usually no wind, and with no wiring to hold it up, I'm not convinced that it would be easily distinguishable from the US Confederate flag. In this case, one would see only slivers of the draped flag. The orientation of the lines, and arm lengths, would not be clear. The stars or lack of stars might be hidden between folds.

        Rather than assuming the worst of perhaps an entire population here, especially when it seems bafflingly bad, it might make sense to consider plausible explanations. Flags draped around vertical flagpoles are not easy to distinguish. I recall images of recent European Council video conferences, with a gallery of flags hung this way in the background of most of the video feeds, and they are not obviously recognizable without context and some consideration. In those cases, this subtlety is probably intentional, such that the flag reinforces the image of the country's PM without being glaringly distracting.

        With flags hung that way, context and knowledge is important to reconstruct what the viewer can't see, and that requires some level of assumption. Some blue and white squiggles in the background behind Mitsotakis, for example, could be safely assumed to be the Greek flag: the viewer could be forgiven for their mistake should it turn out to be a very oddly draped Finnish or Scottish flag. But a flag of some red and blue squiggles in the US could lead viewers to reconstruct the Confederate flag in their mind first, given the context.

        7 votes
        1. [3]
          Deimos
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Yes, this photo from the Daily Mail article I linked in my comment shows that it was on one of those diagonal, wall-mounted flagpoles. Flags on those are almost always hanging in an awkward,...

          Yes, this photo from the Daily Mail article I linked in my comment shows that it was on one of those diagonal, wall-mounted flagpoles. Flags on those are almost always hanging in an awkward, bunched-up way. You can even tell from that photo that it wouldn't always be obvious which of the flags it is.

          7 votes
          1. pallas
            Link Parent
            That photo actually changes my opinion somewhat: it's not just that there's a lack of context, but that the context is outright (if innocently) deceptive. With a house of that style, in that part...

            That photo actually changes my opinion somewhat: it's not just that there's a lack of context, but that the context is outright (if innocently) deceptive. With a house of that style, in that part of the US, with the flag displayed opposite the US flag in that way, and draped in that manner, it seems completely reasonable that someone seeing the house from a distance down its long, straight drive, or seeing a thumbnail online of what appears to have been one of their main photos, would not squint and look for stars before making what would seem like the obvious assumption. I actually might expect that this confusion might be more likely for people who are not American, who might not immediately recall details of a flag of a US rebellion, but are likely to know the general sense of the imagery around the Lost South narrative.

            Given their completely reasonable and unambiguous use of the Norwegian flag elsewhere, which I assume they are not removing (eg, on their sign, where it is printed), it seems odd that they would choose to take this down entirely, when just hanging it, and the American flag opposite, in almost any other way, or even using a photograph for marketing from almost any other angle, would make it obvious that it is the Norwegian flag. I have to wonder whether the truth behind this this outrage bait story is that the proprietors are just planning on rearranging that particular flag, or just completely reasonably decided to lessen ambiguity in this particular instance without actually removing the Norwegian flag motifs throughout their B&B: it seems that the story is actually about this one, specific flag.

            While I don't think that the proprietors here are acting in bad faith, it does somewhat remind me of the pdoc3 project's swastika problem: no, the swastikas used there are not of a Nazi design, but it seems unreasonable to suggest that it is entirely the fault of the viewer if they jump to assumptions about subtle swastikas added to a fork of a Python project, by a European developer, throughout English-language web pages and documentation. In that case, of course, the motivation was likely different, and I worry about the possiblity that @chas makes in that regard.

            7 votes
          2. Loire
            Link Parent
            You can very clearly see there are no stars on that flag. As I mentioned above the stars on the Confederate are obnoxiously obvious by design and cover nearly every inch of the bars. I can't...

            this photo from the Daily Mail article I linked in my comment

            You can very clearly see there are no stars on that flag. As I mentioned above the stars on the Confederate are obnoxiously obvious by design and cover nearly every inch of the bars.

            I can't imagine any angle where you couldn't see what flag it is. Perhaps the barest fold of the corner where only an inch or so of blue is revealed.

            As you mentioned in your other post this is useless outrage bait (that we all fell for) but it seems like people are.going out of their way to justify this. The flags are clearly different to anyone with knowledge of the Norwegian flag.

            3 votes
        2. Loire
          Link Parent
          Everything you typed out might be correct except for one thing: If you can't make out what the flag actually is for some convoluted reason, it is up to you to not jump to conclusions. "I couldn't...

          Everything you typed out might be correct except for one thing:

          If you can't make out what the flag actually is for some convoluted reason, it is up to you to not jump to conclusions. "I couldn't see the flag, but it looked very vaguely like the Confederate flag so I complained about it", is no better of an excuse than "I don't know the difference between the Norwegian National flag and the Confederate Battle flag.

          It's ignorance either way.

          3 votes
      2. ThatFanficGuy
        Link Parent
        Absolutely. It won't happen any time soon 'cause ignorance is a political platform rooted in American exceptionalism, but it's always an excellent goal to strive towards.

        Perhaps we should strive for better education instead?

        Absolutely.

        It won't happen any time soon 'cause ignorance is a political platform rooted in American exceptionalism, but it's always an excellent goal to strive towards.

        6 votes
      3. [12]
        Qis
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I certainly wouldn't advocate for blowing off anything with nuance but these cloths are undeniably extremely similar! They are the same colors and they flap around if it's windy. I insist: flags...

        I certainly wouldn't advocate for blowing off anything with nuance but these cloths are undeniably extremely similar! They are the same colors and they flap around if it's windy. I insist: flags are weird and archaically simplistic, especially in the context of modern visual cultures. As is often the case in problems of communication design, the issue isn't the people who read the signs but the shape of the medium.

        I am for the scrubbing off of the so-called confederate battle flags, of course, but I can't read this story as especially emblematic of American geographical ignorance when it's also so clearly a case of pointlessly homomorphic symbolism... Down with flags!!

        4 votes
        1. [5]
          ThatFanficGuy
          Link Parent
          Are you referring to the idea of a flag or the the shapes flags are generally want to include?

          archaically simplistic

          Are you referring to the idea of a flag or the the shapes flags are generally want to include?

          2 votes
          1. [4]
            Qis
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Both, sure! Not only are color fields and simple shapes nearly vacant as symbolic vehicles ("what does blue mean to you?") but I think flags are usually an extremely dull concept for expressing...

            Both, sure! Not only are color fields and simple shapes nearly vacant as symbolic vehicles ("what does blue mean to you?") but I think flags are usually an extremely dull concept for expressing national affinities. The practice of flag-flying is so often trite and one-note -- actually, it's almost an anti-symbol sometimes. Here's a thought experiment: which is more remarkable? That it is distasteful that someone flies the confederate flag or that it is affirming that someone flies the regular stars-and-stripes?

            (edit per weldawadyathink, tyvm :-D)

            3 votes
            1. Weldawadyathink
              Link Parent
              Are you referring to the current USA flag as the stars and bars? The Stars and Bars is the actual confederate flag. The flag in question is the confederate battle flag.

              Are you referring to the current USA flag as the stars and bars? The Stars and Bars is the actual confederate flag. The flag in question is the confederate battle flag.

              3 votes
            2. [2]
              ThatFanficGuy
              Link Parent
              You seem to be taking the notion solely within the confines of the way flags are being used for political reasons in the US. It's fair, but it's much to narrow to qualify discussion flags in...

              You seem to be taking the notion solely within the confines of the way flags are being used for political reasons in the US. It's fair, but it's much to narrow to qualify discussion flags in general, wouldn't you think?

              The practices about flags differ around the world. It's particularly self-indulgent in the US, but that by no means says anything about other countries, or the way they use theirs.

              What things do you think an item should have to better represent a nation? Would you consider coats of arms a better symbol?

              1 vote
              1. Qis
                Link Parent
                Probably, yes, coats of arms are much more distinctive in my opinion. Any banner which is less uniformly rectangular/symmetric than these two examples would have more mnemonic suggestive power.

                Probably, yes, coats of arms are much more distinctive in my opinion. Any banner which is less uniformly rectangular/symmetric than these two examples would have more mnemonic suggestive power.

                1 vote
        2. [6]
          culturedleftfoot
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          It's extremely hard to look past this being very much what the justification of someone coming from American geographical ignorance would sound like. Of course there's a need for good design but...

          It's extremely hard to look past this being very much what the justification of someone coming from American geographical ignorance would sound like. Of course there's a need for good design but the reason flags have been used for thousands of years is because they work rather reliably. This specific mix-up would be a regular occurrence if differentiating the two flags in question were as tricky as you make out.

          Edit: I should ask, were you familiar with the Norwegian flag before this story? Did you think the two flags were similar?

          2 votes
          1. [5]
            Qis
            Link Parent
            Wait, am I really the only person in this thread who thinks the fact that they have the approximately the same color palette is the most significant aspect of the flag's appearance? If so then...

            Wait, am I really the only person in this thread who thinks the fact that they have the approximately the same color palette is the most significant aspect of the flag's appearance? If so then it's possible my argument is based on a general experience of flags mediated by my near-sightedness. I certainly didn't join this thread to defend ignorance, but if the question is at all whether those two designs are constitutionally visually similar then my answer is that they definitely are.

            Your suggestion is correct, though. While I am sure I could have told you that it wasn't actually the confederate flag, I probably would not have been able to label it as the Norwegian national flag. If I was perhaps ever drilled on these images, I have had no reason to maintain that visual lexicon.

            3 votes
            1. [4]
              culturedleftfoot
              Link Parent
              You might be. I'd wager that most people who have more experience than you (or most Americans do) have learned that 'approximately the same color palette' is not a sufficient standard to identify...

              Wait, am I really the only person in this thread who thinks the fact that they have the approximately the same color palette is the most significant aspect of the flag's appearance?

              You might be. I'd wager that most people who have more experience than you (or most Americans do) have learned that 'approximately the same color palette' is not a sufficient standard to identify flags. It might interest you to know that the Norwegian flag is probably more recognized around the world than the Confederate flag.

              I certainly didn't join this thread to defend ignorance, but if the question is at all whether those two designs are constitutionally visually similar then my answer is that they definitely are.

              No one disputes that they have some similarity, but again, that's not the standard. The first thing to do in this situation should be to go, "Wait, is that really the Confederate flag?" and then confirm whether or not it actually is. That's something that anyone can do, near-sighted or not... bonus points for then finding out who it in fact belongs to. The reasons for thinking you don't need to do that (or worse, try to justify it) are ultimately rooted in general US indifference to/ignorance of the rest of the world, there's no getting around it.

              2 votes
              1. [3]
                Qis
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                Now I'm frustrated. I never said it was alright to do anything rash or bigoted based on first glance assumptions of what-is-that-blur. How has it come off like I think indifference or ignorance is...

                Now I'm frustrated. I never said it was alright to do anything rash or bigoted based on first glance assumptions of what-is-that-blur. How has it come off like I think indifference or ignorance is even a little bit reasonable? Of course the Norwegian flag should be assumed more globally recognizable than the confederate one! I am not actually proposing this cartoonishly obstinate standard for recognition you seem to be ascribing to me. My extremely correct opinion is that flags are dull and samey. Is there someone here who feels otherwise, or feels strongly that flag communication is especially important as a bastion of international diplomatic nuance? Send them forth so I can chase them up a pole!!

                2 votes
                1. [2]
                  culturedleftfoot
                  Link Parent
                  Lol. I'm sympathetic to criticism of flag standardization, designs, etc. but I don't see how you can criticize a subject well when you don't know/understand it well... which is where it seems like...

                  Lol. I'm sympathetic to criticism of flag standardization, designs, etc. but I don't see how you can criticize a subject well when you don't know/understand it well... which is where it seems like you're essentially excusing ignorance. How seriously would you take my extremely correct opinions on music if all I've listened to in my life is whatever I've been subjected to on the car radio?

                  1 vote
                  1. Qis
                    Link Parent
                    I'm not sure I follow that analogy. There's a lot of music on the car radio and I have no doubt that one could synthesize some coherent thoughts out of that experience. Similarly I am pretty sure...

                    I'm not sure I follow that analogy. There's a lot of music on the car radio and I have no doubt that one could synthesize some coherent thoughts out of that experience. Similarly I am pretty sure I've got a sufficient understanding of the subject of flags to conclude that they are largely trivial, all things considered. Go ahead and fly whatever you've got lying around if it makes you feel special...

                    1 vote
  5. [3]
    Kuromantis
    (edited )
    Link
    The worst part is, whoever though this was a confederate flag probably didn't know the confederate flag popularized to the mass public isn't the confederate flag either.

    The worst part is, whoever though this was a confederate flag probably didn't know the confederate flag popularized to the mass public isn't the confederate flag either.

    4 votes
    1. [2]
      Grzmot
      Link Parent
      While that point is funny, by now it's rendered moot because the popular "confederate flag" by now represents it.

      While that point is funny, by now it's rendered moot because the popular "confederate flag" by now represents it.

      11 votes
      1. arp242
        Link Parent
        One thing that video doesn't mention is that the white in the 2nd and 3rd flags represents the superiority of the white race; it was also known as the "The White Man's Flag" and to quote the...

        One thing that video doesn't mention is that the white in the 2nd and 3rd flags represents the superiority of the white race; it was also known as the "The White Man's Flag" and to quote the designer:

        As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause

        But yeah, heritage not hate, right? 😒

        I'm hardly in favour of "but actually…" pedantic points, but I wish the history of "the confederate flag" would be better known just because of this, and I don't think it's entirely a moot point.

        As an aside, I find it a very concerning affair that someone from the Netherlands who never set foot in the US knows this (hardly obscure knowledge), but that many Americans don't :-/

        3 votes