Slightly off topic, but there are currently some E-6B Mercury planes in the air , which are command and control centers for launching nuclear strikes should ground centers become... inoperable. My...
Slightly off topic, but there are currently some E-6B Mercury planes in the air , which are command and control centers for launching nuclear strikes should ground centers become... inoperable. My understanding is that this isn’t too uncommon when there are turbulent events (assassination attempts, attacks, etc). It sends a message that, no matter how out of control things may seem, the US is prepared for nuclear war.
I bring this up to push back on the idea that this is a ploy to get sympathy votes, avoid debates, or any other reason to think Trump faked this. This is being taken very seriously, and I simply do not believe it is something that would be faked. There are so many reasons to think so.
Just a reminder that the 'Doomsday' planes fly extremely regularly already, this is business as usual. The US has been sending the message they're poised to wipe out significant quantities of life...
The US has been sending the message they're poised to wipe out significant quantities of life on earth for a very long time. That particular sabre barely stops rattling.
For anybody curious, this is what's going on My response: It sent a chill down my spine, but Cold War echoes do that to me. I get it's there to ensure the country can operate should the absolute...
My response: It sent a chill down my spine, but Cold War echoes do that to me. I get it's there to ensure the country can operate should the absolute worst happen, but it's still really grim.
(This is at least 70% tongue-in-cheek) Given how things have been going since ~2001, I'm willing to give our adversaries a chance at taking over our nation. Perhaps they can get COVID under control.
(This is at least 70% tongue-in-cheek)
Given how things have been going since ~2001, I'm willing to give our adversaries a chance at taking over our nation. Perhaps they can get COVID under control.
I dunno about that. Russia seems to be handling COVID rather poorly too, and that's even if you take their official numbers at face value... which you probably shouldn't given they claim to have...
I dunno about that. Russia seems to be handling COVID rather poorly too, and that's even if you take their official numbers at face value... which you probably shouldn't given they claim to have 1M people infected but somehow only 20k deaths so far. That and also given the fact a significant portion of COVID misinformation being spread throughout the world right now is known to be coming from proxies tied to the Kremlin.
This could be automatic military response to a president potentially being incapacitated. It could very well still be a ploy by his campaign and is need-to-know. The military would still have to...
This could be automatic military response to a president potentially being incapacitated. It could very well still be a ploy by his campaign and is need-to-know. The military would still have to put on the show per protocol.
The US military doesn't do this sort of thing for show, it would be an intelligence nightmare. These sorts of protocols are designed to trigger automatically, more or less, so that if the chain of...
The US military doesn't do this sort of thing for show, it would be an intelligence nightmare.
These sorts of protocols are designed to trigger automatically, more or less, so that if the chain of command deteriorates rapidly the nation can still function, it'll fall on somebody to take control immediately (and, relinquish that control should a missing person resurface). They're also very... pessimistic, and are designed to trigger well before the conclusion of such a nationally debilitating chain of events, which is to say they go off early. "You want the VP to have comms on those nuclear missile subs before his plane can get shot off the runway" sort of thinking.
Yes, it is possible that is the case. It would require a large number of people at the top of the administration to keep it a secret, which in this White House is no easy task. Not to mention the...
Yes, it is possible that is the case. It would require a large number of people at the top of the administration to keep it a secret, which in this White House is no easy task. Not to mention the fallout if it came out he faked it.
Or he could just have covid. The White House is a petri dish, Trump is literally the head honcho when it comes to poor covid practices, and he is exposed to countless people in non ideal settings on a day to day basis.
Perhaps this will spur a stronger federal response to COVID19? That's half in jest, but to be fair, Boris genuinely gave more of a shit after almost dying to it. I wonder if the next debate will...
Perhaps this will spur a stronger federal response to COVID19? That's half in jest, but to be fair, Boris genuinely gave more of a shit after almost dying to it.
I wonder if the next debate will even happen. And if it does, ho boy is this a zinger when the Coronavirus comes up.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/02/president-trump-being-taken-to-walter-reed-military-medical-center-as-a-precautionary-measure.html?__source=androidappshare Trump has been taking to the hospital as...
Trump has been taking to the hospital as a precautionary measure. No doubt the first thing that comes to mind is how that mirrors the Boris incident, but there genuinely are reasons to be there beyond have a life threatening COVID case, so it's not a clear sign of anything yet.
It was only a matter of time ... As an aside, it is so weird to get major breaking U.S. news at 1am on the east coast. I can't text any of my friends about it - they're all asleep!
It was only a matter of time ...
As an aside, it is so weird to get major breaking U.S. news at 1am on the east coast. I can't text any of my friends about it - they're all asleep!
Hah, this is my life living in Hawaii :) all of the news on the mainland happens overnight here, so we typically wake up with a huge torrent of stuff to catch up on, and then nothing happens...
Hah, this is my life living in Hawaii :) all of the news on the mainland happens overnight here, so we typically wake up with a huge torrent of stuff to catch up on, and then nothing happens throughout most of the day. I typically stop checking my email around 10 or 11, because if I don't, that's when all the morning newsletters start going out and it's too easy to get sucked into reading everything and still be up at 3AM.
Trump is on his way to Walter Reed hospital as a precautionary measure. Interesting to note this is almost exactly how Boris Johnson's admission was initially described.
Notre Dame President Fr. John Jenkins, who attended the Amy Coney Barrett SCOTUS announcement on Saturday, has tested positive for COVID. Pointing to the possibility that Trump was exposed on...
Pointing to the possibility that Trump was exposed on Saturday and not from Hope Hicks.
GOP senator on Judiciary Mike Lee also tested positive for Covid-19. He attended White House event to announce Amy Coney Barrett's nomination to SCOTUS. Mike lee is seen her giving out hugs
Trump's physician released an update with information about the test, treatment, and current status for both Donald and Melania. I'll re-type the main part of the statement here, since it's in an...
Following PCR-confirmation of the President's diagnosis, as a precautionary measure he received a single 8 gram dose of Regeneron's polyclonal antibody cocktail. He completed the infusion without incident. In additional to the polyclonal antibodies, the President has been taking zinc, vitamin D, famotidine, melatonin and a daily aspirin.
As of this afternoon the President remains fatigued but in good spirits. He's being evaluated by a team of experts, and together we'll be making recommendations to the President and First Lady in regard to next best steps.
First Lady Melania Trump remains well with only a mild cough and headache, and the remainder of the First Family are well and tested negative for SARS-CoV-2 today.
Reading between the lines, because naturally White House physicians are going to make it sounds as positive as possible, it does seem that Trump has a nontrivial case already, especially since...
Reading between the lines, because naturally White House physicians are going to make it sounds as positive as possible, it does seem that Trump has a nontrivial case already, especially since Melania seems to be doing much better in comparison. Age, hypotension, and weight does that to you, I suppose. A truly "mild" case would be treated like Melania is--bedrest, water, and so forth, not experimental drug cocktails.
It's probably unlikely he dies or it gets much worse, but I also certainly don't think he's asymptomatic or lying at this point.
I don't know, I could see Trump desperately demanding the newest and best treatments out there as soon as he can get them. It seems like the sort of selfishness he would display - he's the...
I don't know, I could see Trump desperately demanding the newest and best treatments out there as soon as he can get them. It seems like the sort of selfishness he would display - he's the President, why shouldn't he get the best care first? He's sure had no problem with embracing experimental 'silver bullet' treatments before. Like, it seems like his first reaction to this would be 'give me a drug that will cure it right away'.
I agree with you that this seems to put the nail in the 'faking it for clout' coffin, though.
“This is insanity,” Dr. James P. Phillips, an attending physician at Walter Reed who is a critic of Trump and his handling of the pandemic. “Every single person in the vehicle during that completely unnecessary presidential ‘drive-by’ just now has to be quarantined for 14 days. They might get sick. They may die.”
"Contradictory reports" on his health according to The Guardian He is either only mildly symptomatic and recovering, or has worse symptoms which may or may not be getting worse, and he may or may...
"Contradictory reports" on his health according to The Guardian
He is either only mildly symptomatic and recovering, or has worse symptoms which may or may not be getting worse, and he may or may not have been on oxygen. According to White House chief of staff next 48 hours are "critical"
I'm legitimately surprised it didn't happen earlier, and was shocked it finally did happen. I'm somewhat concerned about the political ramifications of Trump getting no symptoms and a full...
I'm legitimately surprised it didn't happen earlier, and was shocked it finally did happen. I'm somewhat concerned about the political ramifications of Trump getting no symptoms and a full recovery, which is the only outcome I feel anybody can morally cheer for, or a bad/worst outcome. If he has no symptoms, he gets to talk about how it's "not that bad" when it's just chance, really. If the worst happens, I'm concerned about what his base will do, particularly the conspiracy nuts, but it may also strengthen the national response under a potentially better leader (not to say I agree with Pence on anything, but he's definitely more stable).
I think that's very unlikely. Hope hicks got it, Ronna got it, etc. It just makes more sense that someone got COVID around the time when they were doing debate prep and so now everyone has it.
I think that's very unlikely. Hope hicks got it, Ronna got it, etc.
It just makes more sense that someone got COVID around the time when they were doing debate prep and so now everyone has it.
I see where that makes a convenient sort of sense, but I’m not sure the message is worth the price of admitting he fell victim to the very thing he’s been trying so hard to suppress. He can fake...
I see where that makes a convenient sort of sense, but I’m not sure the message is worth the price of admitting he fell victim to the very thing he’s been trying so hard to suppress. He can fake surviving an illness but he can’t erase those that actually did not.
Still, I don’t trust the man in any capacity either.
Sadly I wouldn't be so sure. For some, he's already done that. My Facebook feed, it's been a few weeks now since I've checked, was littered with people claiming COVID-19 numbers were wildly...
he can’t erase those that actually did not.
Sadly I wouldn't be so sure. For some, he's already done that. My Facebook feed, it's been a few weeks now since I've checked, was littered with people claiming COVID-19 numbers were wildly inflated by the hospitals. People dying from any cause being listed as COVID-19 deaths. You can't convince them otherwise, either. Pointing to the fact that there are more than 200,000 actual excess deaths over what would be expected has no effect. You can't argue with those people. To many, the only thing Trump could do to drive them away would be to change his party.
If he has anything short of a severe case, I'll be convinced this was an October Surprise stunt. The timing is too perfect and his smug reaction makes this feel planned. Ten days from now he'll...
If he has anything short of a severe case, I'll be convinced this was an October Surprise stunt. The timing is too perfect and his smug reaction makes this feel planned.
Ten days from now he'll come out and say "see, I'm fine, it's all a big dem and liberal media hoax." All of his elderly followers will feel fine voting in person. As a bonus, he can point to those who hope he has a severe case and talk about how terrible people "the dems" are and win sympathy votes too. This feels like October Surprise #1 of many.
Jim Acosta: "Trump adviser said there is reason for concern about Trump's health tonight. "This is serious," the source said. The source went on to describe Trump as very tired, very fatigued, and...
Jim Acosta: "Trump adviser said there is reason for concern about Trump's health tonight. "This is serious," the source said. The source went on to describe Trump as very tired, very fatigued, and having some trouble breathing. WH officials continue to say Trump will be fine."
Very much looks pre-recorded. If Jim's sources are correct, that information is coming well after Trump was taken to hospital, in which case, that's a pretty serious deterioration in condition....
Very much looks pre-recorded. If Jim's sources are correct, that information is coming well after Trump was taken to hospital, in which case, that's a pretty serious deterioration in condition.
I'm sure this is on everyone's minds, but... if he does kick off, I would honestly say that's not good for Biden at all. Trump will become immortalised as a martyr by the right.
I wouldn't be so sure. Trump succumbing to coronavirus would reinforce Biden's message and probably convert at least a few COVID "skeptics". Plus there are the additional bureaucratic...
if he does kick off, I would honestly say that's not good for Biden at all.
I wouldn't be so sure. Trump succumbing to coronavirus would reinforce Biden's message and probably convert at least a few COVID "skeptics".
Plus there are the additional bureaucratic complications: Republicans would need to redo the ballots in every state, which might not even be possible at this point. And what would happen to votes already cast? And do enough people even care about Pence? There's certainly no cult of personality around him.
Voters prefer incumbents for their familiarity. No Trump means uncertainty. Voters don't like uncertainty.
Trump will become immortalised as a martyr by the right.
Martyrdom requires sacrifice. What sacrifice did Trump make? A random, meaningless death resists immortalization.
(Well, if you believe in facts, anyway. I can imagine QAnon folks weaving their own tales – no doubt they'd see it as a deep state conspiracy.)
The problem with Covid skeptics is that they’re already prone to believing in ridiculous conspiracies and they will likely be galvanized by the new theory that he was assassinated or some BS. I...
The problem with Covid skeptics is that they’re already prone to believing in ridiculous conspiracies and they will likely be galvanized by the new theory that he was assassinated or some BS.
I think you give someone willing to believe the entire world is conspiring together on a fake virus too much credit.
Same, the cynic in me immediately thought "Well, this would be a good excuse not to debate. Plus, he can 'come through it fine' and then go on to talk about how it's not actually that bad and...
Same, the cynic in me immediately thought "Well, this would be a good excuse not to debate. Plus, he can 'come through it fine' and then go on to talk about how it's not actually that bad and people are overreacting"
I truly hope that this administration wouldn't sink that low, but they've consistently disappointed.
If Trump and Melania truly do have COVID, I wish them the very best, I don't really want to imagine the chaos that would come if he were to die in the next month.
Yeah I had the same thought during this. It would address the immediate problems that America is facing, but if anything, could make the systemic ones even worse.
Yeah I had the same thought during this. It would address the immediate problems that America is facing, but if anything, could make the systemic ones even worse.
The president’s result came after he spent months playing down the severity of the outbreak that has killed more than 207,000 in the United States and hours after insisting that “the end of the pandemic is in sight.”
Edit:
While the coronavirus is much deadlier than the flu, the vast majority of people infected by it recover, especially if there is no underlying condition, but the threat climbs with age. If Mr. Trump becomes symptomatic, it could take him weeks to recover.
If either Trump or Biden were incapacitated, or died, voters would likely go to the polls or send in their mail ballots and use Trump’s or Biden’s name as a proxy for the vice presidential candidates, meaning to signal their support for Pence or Harris.
This isn't correct in the slightest. What happens depends on when the candidates/President-Elect die. Prior to November 3rd: The RNC/DNC elect a new candidate. RNC gathers its 168 members and...
This isn't correct in the slightest.
What happens depends on when the candidates/President-Elect die.
Prior to November 3rd: The RNC/DNC elect a new candidate. RNC gathers its 168 members and elects a new candidate. DNC Chairman meets with Democratic Governors Association and Democrats in Congress to discuss, then goes to the DNC to speak with the 447 DNC members and they elect a new candidate. Ballots get changed, life goes on.
Between November 3rd and December 14th: The same as above occurs only it gets more complicated. The populace votes November 3rd, the Electoral College votes December 14th. In 48 states (plus DC) electors are pledged to vote for the winner of the plurality vote in that state. 33 states (plus DC) have laws against faithless electors, that is electors that do not vote for the candidate to which they are pledged; of note is that only half of those states have actual enforcement mechanisms for this. Electors cast two votes, one for President and one for Vice President. The vote for President in 33+DC have to go to the presidential candidate to which they were pledged by law. So they'd be voting for a dead guy. Dead guy can't become El Presidente. VPs don't automatically move up because electors make two votes, one for President and one for VP, VPs are still alive and so they'll elect as VP whichever got the most votes in their state. If there's no majority electoral votes for a living presidential candidate 12th amendment kicks in and the House chooses the next president of the three candidates that got the most popular votes with each state getting one vote.
Between December 14th and January 6th: One of two options is made by the newly elected congress...
Validate the Electoral College votes and the VP-Elect is now the President.
Invalidate the Presidential Electoral College votes and again the 12th Amendment kicks in and the House chooses the next president of the three candidates that got the most popular votes with each state getting one vote. - For my own entertainment.
This option is the most entertaining for me as it means that the House would choose between the independent parties that are running meaning we'd have a Green, Libertarian, or another independent party President and a VP from Repubs or Dems on the assumption that both Trump and Biden die.
After January 6th: Normal succession rules apply and VP-Elect becomes President.
I don't think they were saying the VP is the automatic nominee, just the likely nominee I don't think this is true. e.g. Missouri election law would not allow Carnahan's name to be removed from...
I don't think they were saying the VP is the automatic nominee, just the likely nominee
Ballots get changed, life goes on.
I don't think this is true.
The problem is that each state has already printed out its ballots, and in fact more than 2.2 million Americans have already voted.
Agreed that they'd be the likely candidates, but there is plenty to be said about whether or not Harris should be the selected candidate since she withdrew before the primaries even occurred and...
I don't think they were saying the VP is the automatic nominee, just the likely nominee
Agreed that they'd be the likely candidates, but there is plenty to be said about whether or not Harris should be the selected candidate since she withdrew before the primaries even occurred and so didn't get a single vote for the candidacy.
Ballots get changed, life goes on.
I don't think this is true.
The problem is that each state has already printed out its ballots, and in fact more than 2.2 million Americans have already voted.
e.g. Missouri election law would not allow Carnahan's name to be removed from the November 7, 2000, ballot
There are individual laws that would determine it, something far beyond the scope of the comment. The Missouri law doesn't mention if it's specific to the Senate seat election or covers all elections. None of the votes are counted yet as that doesn't occur until November 3rd and I'd say it's likely that if the ballots are changed any votes already submitted would be considered for the now dead candidate and however the dominoes may fall because of it.
It seems it’s already too late to change the ballots. They are already being mailed out and in some places, voting has already begun. The RNC could choose someone else and then it’s up to the...
It seems it’s already too late to change the ballots. They are already being mailed out and in some places, voting has already begun. The RNC could choose someone else and then it’s up to the electors to do that despite what the ballot says. They probably would since they are party loyalists.
I thought some electors were legally obliged to vote the ballot. Although I imagine the Supreme Court would step in if that meant the republican party would lose the election.
I thought some electors were legally obliged to vote the ballot.
Although I imagine the Supreme Court would step in if that meant the republican party would lose the election.
There are separate issues: exactly what do electors promise to do? If they break that promise, does their vote still count? And can they be punished? I didn’t find answers for all of that, but...
There are separate issues: exactly what do electors promise to do? If they break that promise, does their vote still count? And can they be punished?
I didn’t find answers for all of that, but here is something:
There are 33 states (plus the District of Columbia) that require electors to vote for a pledged candidate. Most of those states (16 plus DC) nonetheless do not provide for any penalty or any mechanism to prevent the deviant vote from counting as cast. Five states provide a penalty of some sort for a deviant vote, and 14 states provide for the vote to be canceled and the elector replaced (two states do both). The constitutionality of these laws was upheld by the Supreme Court in Chiafalo v. Washington on July 6, 2020.
Do you mean Biden or Trump? For the latter, I'm not sure getting COVID really helps your case as a president. At best Trump recovers quickly and can say "see, it's not that big of a deal!". For...
Do you mean Biden or Trump? For the latter, I'm not sure getting COVID really helps your case as a president. At best Trump recovers quickly and can say "see, it's not that big of a deal!".
For Biden, it's a good talking point, and if Trump either becomes severely hospitalized and/or dies, then that would be very good for him. If Trump dies, then the RNC will have to find another candidate, it'll probably be Pence, it'll be a huge mess, and Biden could likely win just by doing nothing at that point.
Don't forget we're dealing with 2020 here. Both may be pushing up daisies in two weeks, as if the election season couldn't take any more bizarre turns on the way to November. Can you imagine the...
Don't forget we're dealing with 2020 here. Both may be pushing up daisies in two weeks, as if the election season couldn't take any more bizarre turns on the way to November. Can you imagine the chaos?
Both US Presidential candidates dying right before the election from Coronavirus would be absolutely batshit insane... so I honestly wouldn't be surprised if whichever lunatic is behind this...
Both US Presidential candidates dying right before the election from Coronavirus would be absolutely batshit insane... so I honestly wouldn't be surprised if whichever lunatic is behind this fucked up alternate timeline universe simulation we seem to have found ourselves in has that in store for us. :(
After that point, they surely would have run out of ideas to make this year end even crazier, right? The only thing I can think of that could potentially top it is if aliens decided to finally make their first public appearance amidst all this madness.
The year is 2020. A divided congress elects Pence President, Harris Vice President. Pence takes off his mask. He is a lizardman. Harris takes off her mask. She is a lizard(wo)man. Congress members...
I honestly don’t think so. Candidate health issues are almost always a huge negative - see Bernie’s heart attack, Hillary’s pneumonia, or any other health issue in the history of modern...
I honestly don’t think so. Candidate health issues are almost always a huge negative - see Bernie’s heart attack, Hillary’s pneumonia, or any other health issue in the history of modern presidential elections. The only health related issues that can help someone are like assassination attempts or something and even then I’m not sure.
Useless he recovers within a week, then he's just indestructible... Idk I can see it as an insane idea, could even be a false positive, you'd get the same effect.
Useless he recovers within a week, then he's just indestructible... Idk I can see it as an insane idea, could even be a false positive, you'd get the same effect.
No, this wouldn't look good for any election campaign. He is 74, was not wearing masks and mocked others for wearing them. Trump is third country head who took Covid lightly initially and tested...
No, this wouldn't look good for any election campaign. He is 74, was not wearing masks and mocked others for wearing them. Trump is third country head who took Covid lightly initially and tested positive later. Next presidential debate is on 15th, right after the quarantine period is over. This is bad for him, good for Bidden.
Anyone else that posts a hot take that comes down to saying "good" will get a one-week temporary ban. It's not a clever thing to post and has no redeeming value.
Anyone else that posts a hot take that comes down to saying "good" will get a one-week temporary ban. It's not a clever thing to post and has no redeeming value.
There is also a worthwhile philosophical discussion as to whether this state of affairs could even possibly be good. If a poor health outcome led to a renewed bipartisan fight against COVID and...
There is also a worthwhile philosophical discussion as to whether this state of affairs could even possibly be good. If a poor health outcome led to a renewed bipartisan fight against COVID and lead to widespread adoption of the vaccine, then, if one has consequentialist or utilitarian inclinations, those individuals may be able to say that such a state of affairs would be unambiguously good.
And unlike most moral though experiments, this isn't a contrived trolley problem with a half dozen lives at stake, it isn't hyperbolic to say that millions of lives, and the lives of tens of millions of their loved ones are at stake.
This all to say that Tildes seems like the correct place for such discourse. I'm not sure where such a discussion would take place, if not Tildes.
I don’t understand why there’s a concerted online effort to make it a faux pas to even suggest ill will on a legitimately terrible person. I get that it’s a mild slippery slope but I mean, hell, I...
I don’t understand why there’s a concerted online effort to make it a faux pas to even suggest ill will on a legitimately terrible person.
I get that it’s a mild slippery slope but I mean, hell, I was permabanned from /r/news for wishing ill on Kim Jong-Un of all people during the news break that he might be in a coma.
I worry when we can’t even all agree that surely that guy sucks and bad things should happen to him. I feel like that’s taking online politeness and respect to an extreme.
Frankly I don’t wish Trump dead because that would be the easy way out. He should pay for all his crimes and a life of grifting everyone around him. I might hope that the stint of illness be rather unpleasant though as an appetizer to jail time.
This isn't what's in question. Everyone can agree KJU sucks and we'd be better off without him, without going as far as "I hope he dies". Please don't make the cheap implication "You don't want...
I worry when we can’t even all agree that surely that guy sucks
This isn't what's in question. Everyone can agree KJU sucks and we'd be better off without him, without going as far as "I hope he dies".
Please don't make the cheap implication "You don't want KJU to die? You mean you LIKE the guy?!".
I still don’t get it. We’re all thinking this guy is a mass-murdering horrible dictator, starves and tortures his people, and history will always remember as such but we can’t say it out loud that...
I still don’t get it. We’re all thinking this guy is a mass-murdering horrible dictator, starves and tortures his people, and history will always remember as such but we can’t say it out loud that we’d hope he’d be pushing up daises ASAP because it’s “oh that’s just too mean!”. I mean it’s like some cognitive dissonance or something.
But alright I’ll drop it. I’m clearly in the minority here and the admin has said his piece on it.
Perhaps you "still don't get it" because you aren't actually reading/comprehending what people on the other side of this issue are actually saying in response? As evidenced by the fact that you...
Perhaps you "still don't get it" because you aren't actually reading/comprehending what people on the other side of this issue are actually saying in response? As evidenced by the fact that you have once again utilized a strawman argument that completely misrepresents what others here have actually said about why such comments shouldn't be allowed.
Nobody has said it shouldn't be allowed because "that's just too mean!", nor is anyone suggesting Dictators (or would-be ones like Trump) aren't deserving of such scorn... The majority of arguments against allowing it are primarily about maintaining a higher quality standard for discussion here (which is one of the primary goals of the site), and preventing it from becoming just another bog-standard social media site where the majority of comments have very little substance to them and are just vitriolic hot takes or jokes.
"Good, I hope he dies" doesn't really add anything of value to a discussion, and when such comments are allowed they often come to drown out much higher quality ones due to them being so much easier/quick to write, read, vote on, and agree with at a visceral level, than something well crafted, in-depth, informative and/or thought provoking.
Well you’ve made your own straw man as I wasn’t advocating for such simple needless posts, just the sentiment of what was within them. Further, if we’re talking about the standard for value on...
Well you’ve made your own straw man as I wasn’t advocating for such simple needless posts, just the sentiment of what was within them.
Further, if we’re talking about the standard for value on comments, are the mods on Tildes going to be policing every post they deem to be valueless? Like bad jokes? Or just really simple comments? What constitutes value here? Because if it’s only a rule against “I’m glad x is dead” or whatever, that’s just strangely specific and it’s not like this site has the user base to suffer a flood of these “valueless” comments.
There may be a valid debate to be had about the morality/ethics of wishing someone ill, but all the top-level comments I saw removed were not that... they were just your typical reactionary,...
There may be a valid debate to be had about the morality/ethics of wishing someone ill, but all the top-level comments I saw removed were not that... they were just your typical reactionary, knee-jerk, vitriolic comments that didn't add anything of real substance to the discussion. And the distinct impression I got from them and the way they were written was the users who made them weren't interested in actually sparking any such rational debate either... they just wanted to vent their hatred/anger/frustration. And IMO Tildes isn't really the appropriate place for that, especially when expressed in such a malicious way, regardless of whether those feeling are justified or not.
Wishing ill on somebody else, even a political opponent is lacking any grace. I don't think that kind of attitude should be accepted here. From the docs: Limited tolerance, especially for assholes
Wishing ill on somebody else, even a political opponent is lacking any grace. I don't think that kind of attitude should be accepted here. From the docs:
Yes I think it’s interesting that this stance seems to be default everywhere these days. I was permabanned from /r/news for wishing ill of Kim Jong-Un of all people when that story of him being in...
Yes I think it’s interesting that this stance seems to be default everywhere these days. I was permabanned from /r/news for wishing ill of Kim Jong-Un of all people when that story of him being in a coma was going around.
What kind of world is it when you can’t even hope misfortune befalls one of the worst dictators of our time?
If there’s disagreements then let discussion be had, civilly.
From my perspective, it's more that it's such an utterly pointless sentiment to express. It adds nothing and affects nothing. The only thing it does is increase the ambient levels of smugness and...
From my perspective, it's more that it's such an utterly pointless sentiment to express. It adds nothing and affects nothing. The only thing it does is increase the ambient levels of smugness and negativity in places that are full of comments like that.
If anyone asks me about ways to improve the quality of online discussions, all of my suggestions will be about ways to reduce the number of useless negative comments, not allow even more of them.
It’s a world in which moderating online communities is hard enough already. Not making exceptions for this rule is easier than arguing over specific cases, and the discussion wouldn’t be all that...
It’s a world in which moderating online communities is hard enough already. Not making exceptions for this rule is easier than arguing over specific cases, and the discussion wouldn’t be all that interesting anyway? A permanent ban seems excessive, though.
That’s Reddit for you. Mods can pretty much do whatever they want in their little subreddit kingdoms and the admins give no oversight. I didn’t even get a warning, just an instant permaban. Also,...
That’s Reddit for you. Mods can pretty much do whatever they want in their little subreddit kingdoms and the admins give no oversight. I didn’t even get a warning, just an instant permaban. Also, a single message asking for an appeal was met with a prompt mute.
Well one where you have a few people trying to do moderation so simple blanket rules are easier to handle. I mean I agree with you, but not in the context of online communities with few admins....
Well one where you have a few people trying to do moderation so simple blanket rules are easier to handle. I mean I agree with you, but not in the context of online communities with few admins. Some rules will always feel off to some of us (you and me in this case) - but we need to see beyond the rules and the person behind it, in this case Deimos, and why they would pick the rules.
I get that it's basically a worthless contribution, but we have a lot of those in situations where emotion is justified. When there's a tragedy, we have no problem with comments that amount to "oh...
I get that it's basically a worthless contribution, but we have a lot of those in situations where emotion is justified. When there's a tragedy, we have no problem with comments that amount to "oh no!" Why is this any different?
This reads to me less as keeping Tildes high quality, and more like contributing to the failed response to evil like Trump the world over, where we try to take a false moral highground in order to look more respectable. It's an appeal that doesn't work and continues to not work, resulting in nothing but shaming the oppressed and letting evil use "civility" to guard its entirely un-civil actions.
Alright, I'll do the comparison: If Tildes were around at the time, would a Jewish person commenting "yay!" on April 30, 1945 when Hitler died be temp ban-worthy? Are we that fucking heartless? At worst it should be noise at the bottom of the thread.
I think an indirect effect of the goals of Tildes can be that certain kinds of speech which are justified and not right to act against end up being deleted for not having much content or not being...
I think an indirect effect of the goals of Tildes can be that certain kinds of speech which are justified and not right to act against end up being deleted for not having much content or not being the most civil. (my point about evil was that Trump and the like have taken advantage of the similar standards that news orgs and such tend to have, where they criticize him with kid gloves on because being more harsh would seem unprofessional or uncivil, even when justifiedl)
To be clear with the Jewish comparison, I wasn't trying to compare the action of deleting those comments to the suppression of Jewish speech, I was comparing Trump to Hitler as a person who there are entirely legitimate reasons to wish bad things upon. As in, just like a Jewish person (or anyone) saying "I'm glad Hitler is dead" is a righteous release of anger where trying to police that would be petty or misguided, the same is true about comments wishing Trump's death. Like, Trump and the movement he stands at the front of actively harms many of the users here.
I'm sorry if my bad communication there made it come off any other way. I don't think you've done some atrocity here, but I do think this is a situation where we should look at our enforcement of civil discourse and consider what that's actually doing in this case. I appreciate what you're doing with Tildes, but as I've maintained the whole time I've been here, this kind of diehard approach to civility can easily end up reproducing the problems with respectability politics.
There is no way that with all his exposure that NOW he has it. He’s had way too many chances earlier when we didn’t know what we were dealing with. Not that I don’t fully believe his...
There is no way that with all his exposure that NOW he has it. He’s had way too many chances earlier when we didn’t know what we were dealing with. Not that I don’t fully believe his administration could still cock it up this late in the game but I have my doubts. This is too convenient and must be a cover for something, or maybe to garner sympathy or perhaps to get him out of the debates.
Sure he could. Despite what the White House says, we have no clue if they actually do daily tests for it. This virus is highly contagious and Trump works in an environment where he is indoors with...
Sure he could. Despite what the White House says, we have no clue if they actually do daily tests for it. This virus is highly contagious and Trump works in an environment where he is indoors with tons of different people, none of whom take it seriously. If anyone was going to get it, it was him. I recommend checking this article out.
Yeah, this makes sense. I was trying to think how 2021 could possibly be any worse and now I get it. Trump infects Biden in debate. Biden dies. Trump takes the presidency with no elections. Base...
Yeah, this makes sense. I was trying to think how 2021 could possibly be any worse and now I get it.
Trump infects Biden in debate. Biden dies. Trump takes the presidency with no elections. Base anoints him god emperor.
Fake News! Fake News! Could Trump be trying to avoid another disastrous debate performance? Is Trump going for the sympathy vote? What is going on in the heads of all the Republicans who thought...
Fake News! Fake News!
Could Trump be trying to avoid another disastrous debate performance?
Is Trump going for the sympathy vote?
What is going on in the heads of all the Republicans who thought the liberal media was overhyping COVID, and that wearing masks made you a liberal pussy? Are they going to flip out and angrily accuse the deep state of trying to kill Trump?
I'd fully expect them to. For months I've been fighting a desire for Trump to get terminally acquainted with poetic justice via COVID, and I've now reluctantly accepted that it probably won't...
Are they going to flip out and angrily accuse the deep state of trying to kill Trump?
I'd fully expect them to. For months I've been fighting a desire for Trump to get terminally acquainted with poetic justice via COVID, and I've now reluctantly accepted that it probably won't change anything at all in the eyes of deniers. For the vast majority, conceding anything is a slippery slope to reconsidering their values and inconvenient evidence is simply to be ignored. Just like global warming, just like systemic racism, etc. etc.
Edit: Took a look at The Donald to see what the reactions are like, and it's pretty much as expected. Thoughts and prayers, and the notion that "they" infected him at the debate.
Slightly off topic, but there are currently some E-6B Mercury planes in the air , which are command and control centers for launching nuclear strikes should ground centers become... inoperable. My understanding is that this isn’t too uncommon when there are turbulent events (assassination attempts, attacks, etc). It sends a message that, no matter how out of control things may seem, the US is prepared for nuclear war.
I bring this up to push back on the idea that this is a ploy to get sympathy votes, avoid debates, or any other reason to think Trump faked this. This is being taken very seriously, and I simply do not believe it is something that would be faked. There are so many reasons to think so.
Just a reminder that the 'Doomsday' planes fly extremely regularly already, this is business as usual.
The US has been sending the message they're poised to wipe out significant quantities of life on earth for a very long time. That particular sabre barely stops rattling.
For anybody curious, this is what's going on
My response: It sent a chill down my spine, but Cold War echoes do that to me. I get it's there to ensure the country can operate should the absolute worst happen, but it's still really grim.
Really good article about some of the potential national security implications:
The President Contracting COVID-19 Is A Major National Security Crisis
This was also a good read linked in that article, on the secure bunker under the Whitehouse and how it really wasn't good enough. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21026/white-house-sinkhole-is-a-reminder-of-the-bunkers-that-are-buried-beneath-it
(This is at least 70% tongue-in-cheek)
Given how things have been going since ~2001, I'm willing to give our adversaries a chance at taking over our nation. Perhaps they can get COVID under control.
I dunno about that. Russia seems to be handling COVID rather poorly too, and that's even if you take their official numbers at face value... which you probably shouldn't given they claim to have 1M people infected but somehow only 20k deaths so far. That and also given the fact a significant portion of COVID misinformation being spread throughout the world right now is known to be coming from proxies tied to the Kremlin.
This could be automatic military response to a president potentially being incapacitated. It could very well still be a ploy by his campaign and is need-to-know. The military would still have to put on the show per protocol.
I wouldn’t rule anything out.
The US military doesn't do this sort of thing for show, it would be an intelligence nightmare.
These sorts of protocols are designed to trigger automatically, more or less, so that if the chain of command deteriorates rapidly the nation can still function, it'll fall on somebody to take control immediately (and, relinquish that control should a missing person resurface). They're also very... pessimistic, and are designed to trigger well before the conclusion of such a nationally debilitating chain of events, which is to say they go off early. "You want the VP to have comms on those nuclear missile subs before his plane can get shot off the runway" sort of thinking.
Yes, it is possible that is the case. It would require a large number of people at the top of the administration to keep it a secret, which in this White House is no easy task. Not to mention the fallout if it came out he faked it.
Or he could just have covid. The White House is a petri dish, Trump is literally the head honcho when it comes to poor covid practices, and he is exposed to countless people in non ideal settings on a day to day basis.
And here I thought inconvenient truths were always "fake news."
Perhaps this will spur a stronger federal response to COVID19? That's half in jest, but to be fair, Boris genuinely gave more of a shit after almost dying to it.
I wonder if the next debate will even happen. And if it does, ho boy is this a zinger when the Coronavirus comes up.
Not that I necessarily wish that Trump would get hit hard by COVID, but if he doesn't, then I imagine he probably won't take it more seriously.
Melania Trump has also tested positive for Coronavirus. They updated the headline in article.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/02/president-trump-being-taken-to-walter-reed-military-medical-center-as-a-precautionary-measure.html?__source=androidappshare
Trump has been taking to the hospital as a precautionary measure. No doubt the first thing that comes to mind is how that mirrors the Boris incident, but there genuinely are reasons to be there beyond have a life threatening COVID case, so it's not a clear sign of anything yet.
Although it's clear it's not that minor.
Democratic nominee Joe Biden tests negative for coronavirus after potential exposure
They gotta keep Joe in a bunker
No, that's Donald's go to move, not Joe.
God, I forgot about bunker boy already
It was only a matter of time ...
As an aside, it is so weird to get major breaking U.S. news at 1am on the east coast. I can't text any of my friends about it - they're all asleep!
Hah, this is my life living in Hawaii :) all of the news on the mainland happens overnight here, so we typically wake up with a huge torrent of stuff to catch up on, and then nothing happens throughout most of the day. I typically stop checking my email around 10 or 11, because if I don't, that's when all the morning newsletters start going out and it's too easy to get sucked into reading everything and still be up at 3AM.
Trump is on his way to Walter Reed hospital as a precautionary measure. Interesting to note this is almost exactly how Boris Johnson's admission was initially described.
I think your second link is broken? I'm getting taken to a broken Facebook Messenger page.
Probably not the same as what @gpl intended to link to, but from the CBC:
U.K. PM Boris Johnson admitted to hospital as 'precautionary step'
Thanks, IDK why that happened but @cfabbro's link is pretty close to what I meant to link to.
Notre Dame President Fr. John Jenkins, who attended the Amy Coney Barrett SCOTUS announcement on Saturday, has tested positive for COVID.
Pointing to the possibility that Trump was exposed on Saturday and not from Hope Hicks.
GOP senator on Judiciary Mike Lee also tested positive for Covid-19. He attended White House event to announce Amy Coney Barrett's nomination to SCOTUS. Mike lee is seen her giving out hugs
These plague rats are disgusting.
Trump's physician released an update with information about the test, treatment, and current status for both Donald and Melania. I'll re-type the main part of the statement here, since it's in an embedded PDF at the bottom:
Reading between the lines, because naturally White House physicians are going to make it sounds as positive as possible, it does seem that Trump has a nontrivial case already, especially since Melania seems to be doing much better in comparison. Age, hypotension, and weight does that to you, I suppose. A truly "mild" case would be treated like Melania is--bedrest, water, and so forth, not experimental drug cocktails.
It's probably unlikely he dies or it gets much worse, but I also certainly don't think he's asymptomatic or lying at this point.
I don't know, I could see Trump desperately demanding the newest and best treatments out there as soon as he can get them. It seems like the sort of selfishness he would display - he's the President, why shouldn't he get the best care first? He's sure had no problem with embracing experimental 'silver bullet' treatments before. Like, it seems like his first reaction to this would be 'give me a drug that will cure it right away'.
I agree with you that this seems to put the nail in the 'faking it for clout' coffin, though.
Trump greets supporters following new details of his illness.
"Contradictory reports" on his health according to The Guardian
He is either only mildly symptomatic and recovering, or has worse symptoms which may or may not be getting worse, and he may or may not have been on oxygen. According to White House chief of staff next 48 hours are "critical"
Kellyanne Conway announces she tested positive for coronavirus
I'm legitimately surprised it didn't happen earlier, and was shocked it finally did happen. I'm somewhat concerned about the political ramifications of Trump getting no symptoms and a full recovery, which is the only outcome I feel anybody can morally cheer for, or a bad/worst outcome. If he has no symptoms, he gets to talk about how it's "not that bad" when it's just chance, really. If the worst happens, I'm concerned about what his base will do, particularly the conspiracy nuts, but it may also strengthen the national response under a potentially better leader (not to say I agree with Pence on anything, but he's definitely more stable).
"The president has a fever, congestion and a cough, people close to him say, and he is expected at Walter Reed."
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/02/world/covid-19-coronavirus#the-president-has-a-fever-congestion-and-a-cough-people-close-to-him-say-and-he-is-expected-at-walter-reed
I think that's very unlikely. Hope hicks got it, Ronna got it, etc.
It just makes more sense that someone got COVID around the time when they were doing debate prep and so now everyone has it.
Given that we're all well aware of the rising death toll, I'm not sure what the benefit of such a story would be.
Getting his elderly voters to feel confident going out and voting in person.
I see where that makes a convenient sort of sense, but I’m not sure the message is worth the price of admitting he fell victim to the very thing he’s been trying so hard to suppress. He can fake surviving an illness but he can’t erase those that actually did not.
Still, I don’t trust the man in any capacity either.
Sadly I wouldn't be so sure. For some, he's already done that. My Facebook feed, it's been a few weeks now since I've checked, was littered with people claiming COVID-19 numbers were wildly inflated by the hospitals. People dying from any cause being listed as COVID-19 deaths. You can't convince them otherwise, either. Pointing to the fact that there are more than 200,000 actual excess deaths over what would be expected has no effect. You can't argue with those people. To many, the only thing Trump could do to drive them away would be to change his party.
If he has anything short of a severe case, I'll be convinced this was an October Surprise stunt. The timing is too perfect and his smug reaction makes this feel planned.
Ten days from now he'll come out and say "see, I'm fine, it's all a big dem and liberal media hoax." All of his elderly followers will feel fine voting in person. As a bonus, he can point to those who hope he has a severe case and talk about how terrible people "the dems" are and win sympathy votes too. This feels like October Surprise #1 of many.
Jim Acosta: "Trump adviser said there is reason for concern about Trump's health tonight. "This is serious," the source said. The source went on to describe Trump as very tired, very fatigued, and having some trouble breathing. WH officials continue to say Trump will be fine."
He posted this video
Very much looks pre-recorded. If Jim's sources are correct, that information is coming well after Trump was taken to hospital, in which case, that's a pretty serious deterioration in condition.
I'm sure this is on everyone's minds, but... if he does kick off, I would honestly say that's not good for Biden at all. Trump will become immortalised as a martyr by the right.
I wouldn't be so sure. Trump succumbing to coronavirus would reinforce Biden's message and probably convert at least a few COVID "skeptics".
Plus there are the additional bureaucratic complications: Republicans would need to redo the ballots in every state, which might not even be possible at this point. And what would happen to votes already cast? And do enough people even care about Pence? There's certainly no cult of personality around him.
Voters prefer incumbents for their familiarity. No Trump means uncertainty. Voters don't like uncertainty.
Martyrdom requires sacrifice. What sacrifice did Trump make? A random, meaningless death resists immortalization.
(Well, if you believe in facts, anyway. I can imagine QAnon folks weaving their own tales – no doubt they'd see it as a deep state conspiracy.)
The problem with Covid skeptics is that they’re already prone to believing in ridiculous conspiracies and they will likely be galvanized by the new theory that he was assassinated or some BS.
I think you give someone willing to believe the entire world is conspiring together on a fake virus too much credit.
He should be out in 3-10 days if he is not admitted to the ICU, or 6-19 days if he is admitted to the ICU. Source is the CDC.
Same, the cynic in me immediately thought "Well, this would be a good excuse not to debate. Plus, he can 'come through it fine' and then go on to talk about how it's not actually that bad and people are overreacting"
I truly hope that this administration wouldn't sink that low, but they've consistently disappointed.
If Trump and Melania truly do have COVID, I wish them the very best, I don't really want to imagine the chaos that would come if he were to die in the next month.
Yeah I had the same thought during this. It would address the immediate problems that America is facing, but if anything, could make the systemic ones even worse.
From the NY Times:
Trump Tests Positive for the Coronavirus
Edit:
What happens to the election if Trump is on a ventilator? Just when you thought 2020 could not get any crazier.
Maybe the US will have its next presidential debate over Twitter?
Biden will finally get a word in?
Against God-emperor "Burning Thumbs" Trump? I think not.
From Yahoo News
This isn't correct in the slightest.
What happens depends on when the candidates/President-Elect die.
Prior to November 3rd: The RNC/DNC elect a new candidate. RNC gathers its 168 members and elects a new candidate. DNC Chairman meets with Democratic Governors Association and Democrats in Congress to discuss, then goes to the DNC to speak with the 447 DNC members and they elect a new candidate. Ballots get changed, life goes on.
Between November 3rd and December 14th: The same as above occurs only it gets more complicated. The populace votes November 3rd, the Electoral College votes December 14th. In 48 states (plus DC) electors are pledged to vote for the winner of the plurality vote in that state. 33 states (plus DC) have laws against faithless electors, that is electors that do not vote for the candidate to which they are pledged; of note is that only half of those states have actual enforcement mechanisms for this. Electors cast two votes, one for President and one for Vice President. The vote for President in 33+DC have to go to the presidential candidate to which they were pledged by law. So they'd be voting for a dead guy. Dead guy can't become El Presidente. VPs don't automatically move up because electors make two votes, one for President and one for VP, VPs are still alive and so they'll elect as VP whichever got the most votes in their state. If there's no majority electoral votes for a living presidential candidate 12th amendment kicks in and the House chooses the next president of the three candidates that got the most popular votes with each state getting one vote.
Between December 14th and January 6th: One of two options is made by the newly elected congress...
For my own entertainment.
This option is the most entertaining for me as it means that the House would choose between the independent parties that are running meaning we'd have a Green, Libertarian, or another independent party President and a VP from Repubs or Dems on the assumption that both Trump and Biden die.
After January 6th: Normal succession rules apply and VP-Elect becomes President.
edit: formatting
I don't think they were saying the VP is the automatic nominee, just the likely nominee
I don't think this is true.
e.g. Missouri election law would not allow Carnahan's name to be removed from the November 7, 2000, ballot
Agreed that they'd be the likely candidates, but there is plenty to be said about whether or not Harris should be the selected candidate since she withdrew before the primaries even occurred and so didn't get a single vote for the candidacy.
There are individual laws that would determine it, something far beyond the scope of the comment. The Missouri law doesn't mention if it's specific to the Senate seat election or covers all elections. None of the votes are counted yet as that doesn't occur until November 3rd and I'd say it's likely that if the ballots are changed any votes already submitted would be considered for the now dead candidate and however the dominoes may fall because of it.
It seems it’s already too late to change the ballots. They are already being mailed out and in some places, voting has already begun. The RNC could choose someone else and then it’s up to the electors to do that despite what the ballot says. They probably would since they are party loyalists.
Based on:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/rules-exist-what-could-come-next-they-wont-prevent-total-chaos/616586/
I thought some electors were legally obliged to vote the ballot.
Although I imagine the Supreme Court would step in if that meant the republican party would lose the election.
There are separate issues: exactly what do electors promise to do? If they break that promise, does their vote still count? And can they be punished?
I didn’t find answers for all of that, but here is something:
https://www.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws
Pelosi: Trump Flouting COVID-19 Guidelines Was 'A Brazen Invitation For This To Happen'
It would appear that he's also getting dosed with an experimental drug. Who knows how that will affect anything.
I don't mean to be insensitive but this right here could win him the election, no?
Do you mean Biden or Trump? For the latter, I'm not sure getting COVID really helps your case as a president. At best Trump recovers quickly and can say "see, it's not that big of a deal!".
For Biden, it's a good talking point, and if Trump either becomes severely hospitalized and/or dies, then that would be very good for him. If Trump dies, then the RNC will have to find another candidate, it'll probably be Pence, it'll be a huge mess, and Biden could likely win just by doing nothing at that point.
Don't forget we're dealing with 2020 here. Both may be pushing up daisies in two weeks, as if the election season couldn't take any more bizarre turns on the way to November. Can you imagine the chaos?
Both US Presidential candidates dying right before the election from Coronavirus would be absolutely batshit insane... so I honestly wouldn't be surprised if whichever lunatic is behind this fucked up alternate timeline universe simulation we seem to have found ourselves in has that in store for us. :(
After that point, they surely would have run out of ideas to make this year end even crazier, right? The only thing I can think of that could potentially top it is if aliens decided to finally make their first public appearance amidst all this madness.
The year is 2020. A divided congress elects Pence President, Harris Vice President.
Pence takes off his mask. He is a lizardman.
Harris takes off her mask. She is a lizard(wo)man.
Congress members takes off their masks. Yup -- lizards.
Befuddled, I take off my mask. Turns out we were lizardfolk the whole time.
I will give you $20 to make this movie. 😂
I honestly don’t think so. Candidate health issues are almost always a huge negative - see Bernie’s heart attack, Hillary’s pneumonia, or any other health issue in the history of modern presidential elections. The only health related issues that can help someone are like assassination attempts or something and even then I’m not sure.
I would be shocked if this helps him.
Useless he recovers within a week, then he's just indestructible... Idk I can see it as an insane idea, could even be a false positive, you'd get the same effect.
No, this wouldn't look good for any election campaign. He is 74, was not wearing masks and mocked others for wearing them. Trump is third country head who took Covid lightly initially and tested positive later. Next presidential debate is on 15th, right after the quarantine period is over. This is bad for him, good for Bidden.
Social media companies go into fire-alarm mode over Trump diagnosis
Anyone else that posts a hot take that comes down to saying "good" will get a one-week temporary ban. It's not a clever thing to post and has no redeeming value.
That is reasonable. I believe the punishment is a bit excessive, though.
I personally don't feel it's excessive at all. Most of the news and politics subreddits are instantly permabanning anyone that celebrates this news.
In that case I might say both are excessive. I also might say that Tildes community is distinct from others both in size and in quality.
There is also a worthwhile philosophical discussion as to whether this state of affairs could even possibly be good. If a poor health outcome led to a renewed bipartisan fight against COVID and lead to widespread adoption of the vaccine, then, if one has consequentialist or utilitarian inclinations, those individuals may be able to say that such a state of affairs would be unambiguously good.
And unlike most moral though experiments, this isn't a contrived trolley problem with a half dozen lives at stake, it isn't hyperbolic to say that millions of lives, and the lives of tens of millions of their loved ones are at stake.
This all to say that Tildes seems like the correct place for such discourse. I'm not sure where such a discussion would take place, if not Tildes.
I don’t understand why there’s a concerted online effort to make it a faux pas to even suggest ill will on a legitimately terrible person.
I get that it’s a mild slippery slope but I mean, hell, I was permabanned from /r/news for wishing ill on Kim Jong-Un of all people during the news break that he might be in a coma.
I worry when we can’t even all agree that surely that guy sucks and bad things should happen to him. I feel like that’s taking online politeness and respect to an extreme.
Frankly I don’t wish Trump dead because that would be the easy way out. He should pay for all his crimes and a life of grifting everyone around him. I might hope that the stint of illness be rather unpleasant though as an appetizer to jail time.
This isn't what's in question. Everyone can agree KJU sucks and we'd be better off without him, without going as far as "I hope he dies".
Please don't make the cheap implication "You don't want KJU to die? You mean you LIKE the guy?!".
I still don’t get it. We’re all thinking this guy is a mass-murdering horrible dictator, starves and tortures his people, and history will always remember as such but we can’t say it out loud that we’d hope he’d be pushing up daises ASAP because it’s “oh that’s just too mean!”. I mean it’s like some cognitive dissonance or something.
But alright I’ll drop it. I’m clearly in the minority here and the admin has said his piece on it.
Perhaps you "still don't get it" because you aren't actually reading/comprehending what people on the other side of this issue are actually saying in response? As evidenced by the fact that you have once again utilized a strawman argument that completely misrepresents what others here have actually said about why such comments shouldn't be allowed.
Nobody has said it shouldn't be allowed because "that's just too mean!", nor is anyone suggesting Dictators (or would-be ones like Trump) aren't deserving of such scorn... The majority of arguments against allowing it are primarily about maintaining a higher quality standard for discussion here (which is one of the primary goals of the site), and preventing it from becoming just another bog-standard social media site where the majority of comments have very little substance to them and are just vitriolic hot takes or jokes.
"Good, I hope he dies" doesn't really add anything of value to a discussion, and when such comments are allowed they often come to drown out much higher quality ones due to them being so much easier/quick to write, read, vote on, and agree with at a visceral level, than something well crafted, in-depth, informative and/or thought provoking.
Well you’ve made your own straw man as I wasn’t advocating for such simple needless posts, just the sentiment of what was within them.
Further, if we’re talking about the standard for value on comments, are the mods on Tildes going to be policing every post they deem to be valueless? Like bad jokes? Or just really simple comments? What constitutes value here? Because if it’s only a rule against “I’m glad x is dead” or whatever, that’s just strangely specific and it’s not like this site has the user base to suffer a flood of these “valueless” comments.
Not moderators - you can do this yourself with the 'Noise', 'Offtopic' and 'Joke' labels.
There may be a valid debate to be had about the morality/ethics of wishing someone ill, but all the top-level comments I saw removed were not that... they were just your typical reactionary, knee-jerk, vitriolic comments that didn't add anything of real substance to the discussion. And the distinct impression I got from them and the way they were written was the users who made them weren't interested in actually sparking any such rational debate either... they just wanted to vent their hatred/anger/frustration. And IMO Tildes isn't really the appropriate place for that, especially when expressed in such a malicious way, regardless of whether those feeling are justified or not.
CC: @Loire, too.
Wishing ill on somebody else, even a political opponent is lacking any grace. I don't think that kind of attitude should be accepted here. From the docs:
Limited tolerance, especially for assholes
Yes I think it’s interesting that this stance seems to be default everywhere these days. I was permabanned from /r/news for wishing ill of Kim Jong-Un of all people when that story of him being in a coma was going around.
What kind of world is it when you can’t even hope misfortune befalls one of the worst dictators of our time?
If there’s disagreements then let discussion be had, civilly.
From my perspective, it's more that it's such an utterly pointless sentiment to express. It adds nothing and affects nothing. The only thing it does is increase the ambient levels of smugness and negativity in places that are full of comments like that.
If anyone asks me about ways to improve the quality of online discussions, all of my suggestions will be about ways to reduce the number of useless negative comments, not allow even more of them.
It’s a world in which moderating online communities is hard enough already. Not making exceptions for this rule is easier than arguing over specific cases, and the discussion wouldn’t be all that interesting anyway? A permanent ban seems excessive, though.
That’s Reddit for you. Mods can pretty much do whatever they want in their little subreddit kingdoms and the admins give no oversight. I didn’t even get a warning, just an instant permaban. Also, a single message asking for an appeal was met with a prompt mute.
Is what it is I guess.
Well one where you have a few people trying to do moderation so simple blanket rules are easier to handle. I mean I agree with you, but not in the context of online communities with few admins. Some rules will always feel off to some of us (you and me in this case) - but we need to see beyond the rules and the person behind it, in this case Deimos, and why they would pick the rules.
Plus there is always DM's.
I never said it should be accepted. I merely stated that I believe the penalty is excessive.
What would be a fitting response in your opinion?
24 to 48 hours.
A week seems more like a second offense kind of ban. Or you have to be particularly nasty.
I get that it's basically a worthless contribution, but we have a lot of those in situations where emotion is justified. When there's a tragedy, we have no problem with comments that amount to "oh no!" Why is this any different?
This reads to me less as keeping Tildes high quality, and more like contributing to the failed response to evil like Trump the world over, where we try to take a false moral highground in order to look more respectable. It's an appeal that doesn't work and continues to not work, resulting in nothing but shaming the oppressed and letting evil use "civility" to guard its entirely un-civil actions.
Alright, I'll do the comparison: If Tildes were around at the time, would a Jewish person commenting "yay!" on April 30, 1945 when Hitler died be temp ban-worthy? Are we that fucking heartless? At worst it should be noise at the bottom of the thread.
I think an indirect effect of the goals of Tildes can be that certain kinds of speech which are justified and not right to act against end up being deleted for not having much content or not being the most civil. (my point about evil was that Trump and the like have taken advantage of the similar standards that news orgs and such tend to have, where they criticize him with kid gloves on because being more harsh would seem unprofessional or uncivil, even when justifiedl)
To be clear with the Jewish comparison, I wasn't trying to compare the action of deleting those comments to the suppression of Jewish speech, I was comparing Trump to Hitler as a person who there are entirely legitimate reasons to wish bad things upon. As in, just like a Jewish person (or anyone) saying "I'm glad Hitler is dead" is a righteous release of anger where trying to police that would be petty or misguided, the same is true about comments wishing Trump's death. Like, Trump and the movement he stands at the front of actively harms many of the users here.
I'm sorry if my bad communication there made it come off any other way. I don't think you've done some atrocity here, but I do think this is a situation where we should look at our enforcement of civil discourse and consider what that's actually doing in this case. I appreciate what you're doing with Tildes, but as I've maintained the whole time I've been here, this kind of diehard approach to civility can easily end up reproducing the problems with respectability politics.
There is no way that with all his exposure that NOW he has it. He’s had way too many chances earlier when we didn’t know what we were dealing with. Not that I don’t fully believe his administration could still cock it up this late in the game but I have my doubts. This is too convenient and must be a cover for something, or maybe to garner sympathy or perhaps to get him out of the debates.
Sure he could. Despite what the White House says, we have no clue if they actually do daily tests for it. This virus is highly contagious and Trump works in an environment where he is indoors with tons of different people, none of whom take it seriously. If anyone was going to get it, it was him. I recommend checking this article out.
I heard the music in my head as I was reading the news : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SwKGJDwStQ
Yeah, this makes sense. I was trying to think how 2021 could possibly be any worse and now I get it.
Trump infects Biden in debate. Biden dies. Trump takes the presidency with no elections. Base anoints him god emperor.
Fake News! Fake News!
Could Trump be trying to avoid another disastrous debate performance?
Is Trump going for the sympathy vote?
What is going on in the heads of all the Republicans who thought the liberal media was overhyping COVID, and that wearing masks made you a liberal pussy? Are they going to flip out and angrily accuse the deep state of trying to kill Trump?
I'd fully expect them to. For months I've been fighting a desire for Trump to get terminally acquainted with poetic justice via COVID, and I've now reluctantly accepted that it probably won't change anything at all in the eyes of deniers. For the vast majority, conceding anything is a slippery slope to reconsidering their values and inconvenient evidence is simply to be ignored. Just like global warming, just like systemic racism, etc. etc.
Edit: Took a look at The Donald to see what the reactions are like, and it's pretty much as expected. Thoughts and prayers, and the notion that "they" infected him at the debate.
My neighbors think the deep state is holding back the cure until after Trump is defeated.
October surprise delivers