6 votes

Having doubled the amount of zones under their control in the last two months, even the Taliban are surprised at how fast they're advancing

7 comments

  1. [6]
    Comment deleted by author
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    1. [3]
      stu2b50
      Link Parent
      I don't see how any of that is mutually exclusive, though. This can simulatenously be the correct action for the US government, and also be one with serious consequences for the humans on the...

      I don't see how any of that is mutually exclusive, though. This can simulatenously be the correct action for the US government, and also be one with serious consequences for the humans on the ground that the US left behind.

      That isn't at odds with each other. Terrible things can happen when you do the correct decision, because sometimes all decisions are terrible.

      That doesn't mean you should just white wash the terrible aspects of the decision and pretend they don't exist. You should know that they exist, and accept them. Otherwise it's a terrible disservice to the people on the ground whom are living through those consequences.

      And, to be honest, I think you should care, inasmuch as it is possible to care about people you've never met thousands of miles away. Caring does not mean you think it was a bad decision.

      12 votes
      1. [3]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. stu2b50
          Link Parent
          But where are these appeals? This article is a straight forward reporting of the strategic overview of Afghanistan (i.e Afghan government's not doing great) plus some voices from the civilians on...

          But where are these appeals? This article is a straight forward reporting of the strategic overview of Afghanistan (i.e Afghan government's not doing great) plus some voices from the civilians on the ground. Nowhere does it plea for the US to stay longer, or call Biden a war criminal or something. The closest is the very last line

          The U.N. special envoy to Afghanistan, Deborah Lyons, told the U.N. Security Council on Tuesday that the Taliban appeared poised to seize provincial cities once U.S. and NATO forces leave, and painted a bleak picture. "The possible slide toward dire scenarios is undeniable," she said.

          But I think it'd be a stretch to really call that any kind of argument that the US should stay.

          If you do see people arguing that the US should stay elsewhere, I see no issue in representing your side but in the context of this thread it feels like fighting ghosts.


          They don’t need my American digital tears of sympathy that do nothing for them

          The world does need that, though. It's an important thing to actualize how shitty of a catch-22 you put US allies in Afghanistan when you dip on them. The lesson from US involvement in the middle east can't just leave out the ongoing impact it has on the people in the area to swoop in, half heartedly prop up a failing government, and then leave them to their fate decades later.

          I see these stories basically saying “look at this bad happening because we’re leaving” and not enough extolling the fact we’re finally leaving.

          For one, "Taliban taking ground" is actual world news the same way it would be if the US was never involved - of course it would have more coverage. Secondly, I think it's a huge disservice if any news outlet published a purely positive extolling of Biden leaving Afghanistan. That would be, to be frank, disgusting.

          The fears that negative news would somehow reverse the US's withdrawal is also somewhat absurd - for one, it's not a reversible action - once you abandon occupied land you can't just casually come back later, and secondly these decisions are by fiat from the current President, not the masses, and we have a president now who doesn't make all his decisions from Twitter and cable news.

          9 votes
        2. streblo
          Link Parent
          Shouldn't it be newsworthy? Shouldn't there be some self reflection involved? I think you're right -- staying indefinitely isn't tenable but that doesn't make it an easy decision. Occupying a...

          They don’t need my American digital tears of sympathy that do nothing for them and if anything only serve to support our continued action in some knucklehead way of “fixing” the situation when we only ultimately make it worse. This kind of misery and tragedy has been going on for years and years, only newly newsworthy in the context of our withdrawal.

          Shouldn't it be newsworthy? Shouldn't there be some self reflection involved? I think you're right -- staying indefinitely isn't tenable but that doesn't make it an easy decision.

          Occupying a country and manufacturing a new 'reality' for the people there only to pull the rug out is going to result in the murder and rape of some of these newfound allies when their reality implodes. Talking about that isn't an attempt to muddy the waters in favour of staying -- it's a necessary acknowledgement of the wanton destruction you're inflicting.

          5 votes
    2. Kuromantis
      Link Parent
      I agree but, honestly, the main reason I posted this other than showing that the Taliban will take over was so that we can feel at least a bit bad for it, given the Taliban will probably be worse...

      It seems like the Taliban would always gain ground when we left. So what of it? Are we to hold the Afghan government together forever? Clearly they aren't becoming stable or competent with our presence. This situation was always going to get worse before it got better, and now thankfully (or rather, hopefully) we're no longer a part of it.

      I agree but, honestly, the main reason I posted this other than showing that the Taliban will take over was so that we can feel at least a bit bad for it, given the Taliban will probably be worse for the people there than the US occupation and war. Clearly the occupation and war fixed nothing, and, given Bush, it definitely wasn't declared and waged with good intentions, but Afghanistan falling to the Taliban (well, falling back to where it was before the US involvement apparently, before their own attack got them invaded) seems like something worth mourning at least a little.

      4 votes
    3. vord
      Link Parent
      Keep in mind that one of the primary reasons stated for the 9/11 attack was for the USA to stop its imperialist meddling in the Middle East. Perhaps we'd be in a far different world if we had...

      Keep in mind that one of the primary reasons stated for the 9/11 attack was for the USA to stop its imperialist meddling in the Middle East.

      Perhaps we'd be in a far different world if we had listened in those decades past, before 9/11 and the foreverwar it kicked off.

      2 votes
  2. Kuromantis
    Link
    I'm not sure how this all will work out. Is this basically going to be a R.I.P for the Afghani government since it was nothing w/o the US or is there something I'm missing here concerning the...

    I'm not sure how this all will work out. Is this basically going to be a R.I.P for the Afghani government since it was nothing w/o the US or is there something I'm missing here concerning the historical context?

    WASHINGTON — The Taliban are advancing at lightning speed across Afghanistan as U.S. troops withdraw. They now control a third of the country, are fighting for control of 42 percent more — and may even be slowing their advance on purpose.

    A Taliban commander in Ghazni province told NBC News that he and fellow fighters were surprised at the speed of their advance and had avoided capturing some targets so as not to run afoul of the U.S.

    According to Afghan media reports, eyewitness accounts and statements from local Afghan officials, the Taliban are advancing in rural areas and near Kabul. They now hold almost twice as much of Afghanistan as they did just two months ago, raising fresh doubts about whether the Afghan government can survive once U.S. forces depart by Sept. 11.

    In a war that has often been a slow grind, the situation on the ground has changed on a daily — sometimes hourly basis — in recent weeks. Some Afghan government units have abandoned their weapons and vehicles without a major fight, as local officials reportedly negotiated surrender agreements with the Taliban.

    The Afghan military's retreat has prompted a revival of former anti-Soviet, anti-Taliban militias, with Afghan President Ghani and other officials embracing the groups and calling for a united resistance against the Taliban. The call to arms for local militias seemed to underscore the Afghan government's perilous position, and carried the risk that the rival groups could plunge the country back into a wider, anarchic civil war like the one that raged in the 1990s.

    1 vote
  3. bkimmel
    Link
    *Finally admits defeat in Afghanistan *National politics have become completely dysfunctional *Media is completely incapable of representing any kind of "truth": it's essentially just a big game...

    *Finally admits defeat in Afghanistan
    *National politics have become completely dysfunctional
    *Media is completely incapable of representing any kind of "truth": it's essentially just a big game of PR feudalism, parroting talking points and browbeating the relative "outgroup" as harmful.
    *Buildings and infrastructure, built in the halcyon days is beginning to collapse. Regular power and utility outages...Any project to "fix" it will just invite more corruption.

    Man, the last few years before the collapse of the Soviet Union were rough...

    2 votes