12 votes

Wondering if there is a good discussion or debate on if issues affecting under-privileged folks should be more racially based or socioeconomic based?

basically, there seem to be 2 competing narratives of "people of color/poor people of all color tend to have it worse so let's create social programs specifically targeting them to left them up"

and I am see pros and cons to both sides and am wondering what people well-researched and versed on either have to say to each other.

  1. I really prefer to see a long-form discussion but I am not opposed to a debate as long as its a debate with no audience. I've really grown to hate watching debate participants try to argue for claps or score cheap points with the audience.
  2. Very minimal shouting or yelling over each other and each side lets the other finish.
  3. I prefer if its not "dark web" folks like Sam Harris or Coleman Hughes who are involved in discussion but am not totally opposed.

An example of a debate I kinda liked (would have liked it more if Fridman hadn't invited a streamer and treated it like he had the same level of expertise as historians or analyst): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X_KdkoGxSs

26 comments

  1. krellor
    Link
    I don't have a ready resource to direct you to, at least online. That said, I'll give a personal experience that has shaped my thoughts over time. I do think that programs that are designed to...
    • Exemplary

    I don't have a ready resource to direct you to, at least online. That said, I'll give a personal experience that has shaped my thoughts over time.

    I do think that programs that are designed to help specific historically disadvantaged or exploited peoples are good and can be helpful, though they have their challenges, such as becoming diluted due to becoming a catch all for every redress. They also have challenges, often pragmatic in nature, and especially around perceptions.

    I grew up in a poor rural area. I dropped out of school, raised younger siblings while still a child myself, and dealt with the problems of separated parents with addictions and demons of their own. Eventually I managed to get into college, and though the road was winding, achieved a great deal of success in my life and career.

    As a young man I remember feeling an odd mixture of confusion and hurt when reading about an exciting scholarship opportunity, only to see at the bottom of the poster that it had demographic requirements that I, a young white man, didn't meet. This was before the Internet really became what it is today, so opportunities were what you could find on a cork board. Even being exempted from family contribution formulas was an uphill battle convincing the financial aid office to believe me that I had no way to get them information and get much needed help receiving Pell grants and subsidized loans.

    It wasn't until years later, removed from the days of literally going hungry to keep my kid siblings fed and housed, working split shifts as a dish washer, and getting myself in school, that I understood a few things. That, as hard as I had things, if I had been black or a woman, I would probably have had a harder road even starting with an identical circumstance. The subtle things that broke my way, such as when caught shoplifting food or Christmas presents for my siblings and the store looking the other way, may have been very different as a young black "youth" instead of a hungry "kid."

    It's not that I was privileged. Far from. Life was hard. It's that I wasn't structurally devalued on top of my difficult circumstance.

    The problem is that the perspective I gained came through years of contemplation, as is my nature, and was bolstered by success. I attained the privilege of being distanced from the fear of homelessness, hunger, and paying the bills with an overdrafted checking account.

    I don't think most people will gain the perspective that I have. They either lack the privilege of circumstance to be reflective, the priming to be reflective even when granted the chance, or simply not have it in their nature. It also doesn't help that affirmative action supporters are often their own worst enemies when it comes to messaging to the wider society and keeping focused on their starting goals. Getting the wider society, including lots of poor struggling white people to understand the need, let alone in the current language of "privilege" is an uphill battle.

    So all of that being said, I'm supportive of narrow affirmative action programs that can be measured, communicated, and defended, and broader needs-based assistance that have broader support and can raise all ships, knowing that some ships need more help than others.

    Not exactly to the subject, but books I've read and enjoyed that have given me some perspective includes "They can't kill is till they kill us" and "house on Mango Street" to make a few.

    I would would encourage you to evaluate arguments you might hear carefully, not rush to any one judgement, and make sure it is your own when you do come to a position. I hope my own example is helpful in some way. I rarely talk about my upbringing in candid terms.

    Take care and happy holidays!

    39 votes
  2. [18]
    boxer_dogs_dance
    Link
    I'm far from an expert but I have seen people who are more informed than I am using the term intersectionality to talk about how different forms of social disadvantage interact. When it comes to...

    I'm far from an expert but I have seen people who are more informed than I am using the term intersectionality to talk about how different forms of social disadvantage interact.

    When it comes to political action, I tend to favor focusing on building the biggest coalition possible.

    16 votes
    1. [17]
      b3_k1nd_rw1nd
      Link Parent
      I don't disagree but I believe there are some people who feel that the bigger issue is people of color or poor people and that both do not need to be addressed if you address just one, those are...

      I don't disagree but I believe there are some people who feel that the bigger issue is people of color or poor people and that both do not need to be addressed if you address just one, those are the kind of folks I am curious about.

      4 votes
      1. [16]
        DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        While many activists have their priorities - because they're part of a specific community or are particularly touched by a particular struggle, the overwhelming theme is that we serve no one but...
        • Exemplary

        While many activists have their priorities - because they're part of a specific community or are particularly touched by a particular struggle, the overwhelming theme is that we serve no one but the oppressors by arguing who has it worse, "Oppression Olympics" style. Especially with race and SES, there are deep overlaps there due to the history of the US and the destruction of Black wealth for example.

        I think your premise is inaccurate, there are not two competing narratives.

        24 votes
        1. [8]
          cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          Oh, there are most definitely competing narratives. But IMO they're almost entirely manufactured by right-wing demagogues and their followers in the same way "all lives matter" became their...

          I think your premise is inaccurate, there are not two competing narratives.

          Oh, there are most definitely competing narratives. But IMO they're almost entirely manufactured by right-wing demagogues and their followers in the same way "all lives matter" became their rallying cry when "black lives matter" came for the forefront. They're not using them to actually discuss the issues seriously, or in an attempt to solve any problems for anyone... they're just using them as wedge issues to sow division, further inflame racial tensions, and get ignorant "moderates" to side with them against minority and progressive activists.

          And that's something I would strongly encourage @b3_k1nd_rw1nd to be incredibly cautious of when looking for discussions on this topic, and similar ones like it. These sorts of racially charged wedge issues, like those surrounding affirmative action and "meritocracy", are fertile recruiting grounds for the online far right and white supremacists.

          13 votes
          1. Fiachra
            Link Parent
            They're only competing narratives if you consider them mutually exclusive. Otherwise they're just two valid but incomplete perspectives.

            They're only competing narratives if you consider them mutually exclusive. Otherwise they're just two valid but incomplete perspectives.

            4 votes
          2. [6]
            b3_k1nd_rw1nd
            Link Parent
            do you consider dissenters such as Sam Harris, Coleman Hughes and Bill Maher to be "right-wing demagogues"?

            do you consider dissenters such as Sam Harris, Coleman Hughes and Bill Maher to be "right-wing demagogues"?

            1. [4]
              cfabbro
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              That feels like an intentionally loaded question. I am not familiar with Coleman Hughes, but both Harris and Maher have expressed views that I personally consider "problematic" on a number of...

              That feels like an intentionally loaded question. I am not familiar with Coleman Hughes, but both Harris and Maher have expressed views that I personally consider "problematic" on a number of subjects... but especially on Islam. And Harris has espoused views that have come dangerously close to promoting scientific racism.

              So do I see them as "right-wing demagogues"? No. But I do view both as being prejudiced, and hilariously stereotypical members of the "skeptic" community... which is to say they act like they're always correct, and authoritative experts on every conceivable subject, even those well outside their respective wheelhouses. And a lot of people unfortunately believe everything they say simply because they debate things calmly, and seemingly "rationally" (by outwards appearances), even though they're not nearly as well informed or as unbiased on the subjects they discuss as they pretend to be.

              16 votes
              1. [3]
                unkz
                Link Parent
                I’m hesitant to label Harris as prejudiced. I would characterize him as having justifiable issues with a religion that has severely problematic beliefs and practices, especially in its most...

                I’m hesitant to label Harris as prejudiced. I would characterize him as having justifiable issues with a religion that has severely problematic beliefs and practices, especially in its most fundamental forms, and he generally has the same complaints with fundamentalist Christianity.

                Consider the book “Islam and the future of tolerance” which he wrote with Maajid Nawaz, a former radical. I don’t think that’s the mark of a bigot, even if his views are expressed directly and without compromise.

                2 votes
                1. [2]
                  cfabbro
                  (edited )
                  Link Parent
                  If it was just that one thing I might agree with you. However: Charles Murray is once again peddling junk science about race and IQ. Podcaster and author Sam Harris is the latest to fall for it....

                  If it was just that one thing I might agree with you. However:

                  Charles Murray is once again peddling junk science about race and IQ. Podcaster and author Sam Harris is the latest to fall for it.

                  But IMO the real damning part is the follow up article by Ezra Klein, Vox's cofounder/editor-in-chief (at the time), about his correspondence with Harris after the original article's publication, which makes it pretty clear that Harris didn't "fall" for anything. Harris is still convinced he's right about race and IQ, refuses to acknowledge that Murray is a peddler of racist junk science (which Harris helped promote), and refuses to debate the three academic psychologists who specialize in studying intelligence, who wrote the original article criticizing him and Murray.

                  p.s. It was that series of events that made me lose all respect for Harris, BTW. I was actually genuinely a fan of his before then.

                  11 votes
                  1. unkz
                    Link Parent
                    Heh I feel like the suite of disclaimers required to fruitfully discuss genetic intelligence are so long and fraught with danger that I don’t know if it’s possible to do without making somebody angry.

                    Heh I feel like the suite of disclaimers required to fruitfully discuss genetic intelligence are so long and fraught with danger that I don’t know if it’s possible to do without making somebody angry.

                    1 vote
            2. kovboydan
              Link Parent
              A neuroscientist, a random with an undergraduate philosophy degree, and…. a stand up comedian walk into a bar. The comedian says “Want to talk about the interplay between class struggle and racism...

              A neuroscientist, a random with an undergraduate philosophy degree, and…. a stand up comedian walk into a bar. The comedian says “Want to talk about the interplay between class struggle and racism before debating which one to prioritize?”

              10 votes
        2. [7]
          kovboydan
          Link Parent
          I think the premise is inaccurate if you’re relatively well informed. You’d point to things like Clinton’s first term executive order - this one - to show recognizing the overlap in impact and...

          I think the premise is inaccurate if you’re relatively well informed. You’d point to things like Clinton’s first term executive order - this one - to show recognizing the overlap in impact and similarity in marginalization isn’t novel.

          I think the premise is accurate if you’re not well informed, get your news from some guy named Joe Pags, or you’re trying to make money off “manufacturing consent” / promoting division.

          5 votes
          1. [3]
            DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            Which is why I don't know of anything that matches the OP's needs. Because most of the people framing things in this way are in those spaces and aren't the academic or experienced experts.

            Which is why I don't know of anything that matches the OP's needs. Because most of the people framing things in this way are in those spaces and aren't the academic or experienced experts.

            7 votes
            1. [2]
              kovboydan
              Link Parent
              I don’t know where the syndicalists hangout post World War 2, but maybe OP would find answers in an anarcho-syndicalist or socialist libertarian space?

              I don’t know where the syndicalists hangout post World War 2, but maybe OP would find answers in an anarcho-syndicalist or socialist libertarian space?

              6 votes
              1. b3_k1nd_rw1nd
                Link Parent
                I don't know what kind of space that is referring to :sweat_smile:

                anarcho-syndicalist or socialist libertarian space

                I don't know what kind of space that is referring to :sweat_smile:

                1 vote
          2. [3]
            b3_k1nd_rw1nd
            Link Parent
            there are people who I think are reasonably well-informed who think socioeconomic status should be the aspect targeted rather than race.

            I think the premise is accurate if you’re not well informed

            there are people who I think are reasonably well-informed who think socioeconomic status should be the aspect targeted rather than race.

            2 votes
            1. unkz
              Link Parent
              I think in this sort of discussion, "well-informed" can be considered to be interchangeable with "agrees with me".

              I think in this sort of discussion, "well-informed" can be considered to be interchangeable with "agrees with me".

              12 votes
            2. kovboydan
              Link Parent
              If these are the people listed in your other comment, my response would be the same here.

              If these are the people listed in your other comment, my response would be the same here.

              6 votes
  3. [4]
    Minori
    (edited )
    Link
    This probably belongs in ~society considering it's literally tagged society (u/cfabbro for review). I'm generally iffy on enshrining affirmative action problems along social/racial/ethnic lines...

    This probably belongs in ~society considering it's literally tagged society (u/cfabbro for review).

    I'm generally iffy on enshrining affirmative action problems along social/racial/ethnic lines because they can further entrance divisions which are harmful to long-term social health. I think the best example of this is India's whole mess around caste with specific quotas for lower castes, and the fact that every major religious group has their own civil code. These have served to drive separatism, discrimination, and resentment in India rather than driving any sense of national identity and unity.

    In general, it's good for people to identify with and unite across diverse groups under a shared identity which they can opt into (compare American and European immigrant identity for example). It's hard to legally entrench racial support without also laying the groundwork for future divisions, so I'd rather focus on economic redistributive policies. Intersectionality is still worth reading about as others mentioned.

    8 votes
    1. [3]
      cfabbro
      Link Parent
      I actually assumed it already was in ~society, but didn't notice it wasn't. Moved.

      I actually assumed it already was in ~society, but didn't notice it wasn't. Moved.

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        b3_k1nd_rw1nd
        Link Parent
        i figured it belonged there but I also saw my post about DEI ended up in life originally and to me, those are speaking to the same thoughts so I assumed there was something about categorization I...

        i figured it belonged there but I also saw my post about DEI ended up in life originally and to me, those are speaking to the same thoughts so I assumed there was something about categorization I am missing :shrug:

        2 votes
        1. cfabbro
          Link Parent
          From the ~life description: And the ~society one: So even though DEI as a whole touches on issues related to society, your topic was mostly work related. Whereas this "race vs SES" topic is way...

          From the ~life description:

          Topics related to our personal (and professional) lives - work, school, families, relationships, parenting, etc.

          And the ~society one:

          Politics, law, policies, and similar societal-level subjects

          So even though DEI as a whole touches on issues related to society, your topic was mostly work related. Whereas this "race vs SES" topic is way more about society, social policies, and political in nature.

          4 votes
  4. post_below
    Link
    There aren't two competing narratives in my view. Being poor and undereducated impacts people in all demographics so in that sense it's sort of a universal problem. Because of that, solutions...

    There aren't two competing narratives in my view. Being poor and undereducated impacts people in all demographics so in that sense it's sort of a universal problem. Because of that, solutions which decrease poverty and increase education will lift up people regardless of race or identity.

    But it won't magically solve bigotry. Using systemic racism as an example, a universal program to address poverty is going to end up lifting up a higher percentage of white people because they won't have to deal with all the ways our customs and systems make it harder for brown people (and women and so on).

    There's no reason not to do both? Just asking the question seems to me to be leaning in a particular direction. Similar vibe with your recent DEI post. I could be wrong, but I feel like you're soft playing viewpoints which you think wouldn't land well if presented directly.

    7 votes
  5. [2]
    boxer_dogs_dance
    Link
    I guess I wonder why this question is important to you? Do you doubt that race discrimination is real and harmful? Do you believe that it has been solved and is now an issue best described in the...

    I guess I wonder why this question is important to you?

    Do you doubt that race discrimination is real and harmful? Do you believe that it has been solved and is now an issue best described in the past tense? Do you think more important groups and issues are being overlooked because of focus on race in the US?

    5 votes
    1. vord
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      For anyone in this camp, I would like to direct you to this segment of The Cost Of Doing Business. I do suggest watching the whole video, but I linked in at that timestamp because it really hits...

      Do you believe that it has been solved and is now an issue best described in the past tense?

      For anyone in this camp, I would like to direct you to this segment of The Cost Of Doing Business. I do suggest watching the whole video, but I linked in at that timestamp because it really hits the concept of White Privilege squarely on the head. Which is the topic that I've found to be most contentious with the 'racism is solved' crowd.

      2 votes