37 votes

Live updates of day one executive orders / actions taken by US President Donald Trump

68 comments

  1. [8]
    DefinitelyNotAFae
    Link
    I honestly feel ill. Laken Riley passing is awful. I'm just already out of words. And I'm really scared for my students and my staff. And for me and my family - we're not married, he's disabled...

    I honestly feel ill. Laken Riley passing is awful. I'm just already out of words. And I'm really scared for my students and my staff.

    And for me and my family - we're not married, he's disabled and i'm visibly queer and I'm having to think real hard about that right now. Even here.

    32 votes
    1. [7]
      crulife
      Link Parent
      Are your students and staff illegal immigrants who have been or will be arrested for burglary or theft? I'm basing my knowledge of this law on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laken_Riley_Act so...

      Laken Riley passing is awful. I'm just already out of words. And I'm really scared for my students and my staff.

      Are your students and staff illegal immigrants who have been or will be arrested for burglary or theft? I'm basing my knowledge of this law on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laken_Riley_Act so please correct me and apologies if I interpreted it wrong.

      6 votes
      1. DefinitelyNotAFae
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        My students and staff fall into a number of categories, including highly empathetic because they're doing social work, that impact them from all of the days news. Because I do mental health work,...
        • Exemplary

        My students and staff fall into a number of categories, including highly empathetic because they're doing social work, that impact them from all of the days news.

        Because I do mental health work, I spend a decent amount of my time on days like this trying to keep some folks from despair and suicide.

        The immigration status of anyone but myself is none of my business and even if I knew about it, I wouldn't discuss it in an open, written, forum.

        ETA, my opinions on Laken Riley are here in excessive detail in multiple comments.

        25 votes
      2. [2]
        oliak
        Link Parent
        All it requires is being charged, not actually committing the crime. Can't imagine how that could be abused.

        All it requires is being charged, not actually committing the crime. Can't imagine how that could be abused.

        35 votes
        1. l_one
          Link Parent
          Yep, just a step towards getting rid of that pesky 'innocent until proven guilty' roadblock. It's just so much more convenient to be able to do anything you want to people you target if you don't...

          Yep, just a step towards getting rid of that pesky 'innocent until proven guilty' roadblock.

          It's just so much more convenient to be able to do anything you want to people you target if you don't need to follow due process.

          6 votes
      3. [3]
        Greg
        Link Parent
        The biggest problem is “arrested for” - that doesn’t mean you’ve done anything at all, either factually speaking or in a legal sense. It’s an incredibly low bar for serious consequences, and is...

        The biggest problem is “arrested for” - that doesn’t mean you’ve done anything at all, either factually speaking or in a legal sense. It’s an incredibly low bar for serious consequences, and is massively open to systemic abuse: a quite literal ability to round people up and put them in camps based on nothing more than “reasonable” suspicion, as defined by the people making the accusations. I’m fully aware of the weight of my phrasing it like that, and given the last six months in general and last two days specifically I don’t think it’s unwarranted exaggeration.

        There’s more to it, but that’s the core point. Stack that with attempts to revoke birthright citizenship and a realistic view of how the authorities under Trump are likely to decide who to target under this law, and hopefully the fear becomes a little more understandable.

        30 votes
        1. [2]
          NoblePath
          Link Parent
          Not that it matter much in a system hell bent on abuse, but arrest requires probable cause, a more involved standard than reasonable suspicion. The system has always had bias and abuse, mostly...

          Not that it matter much in a system hell bent on abuse, but arrest requires probable cause, a more involved standard than reasonable suspicion.

          The system has always had bias and abuse, mostly against black folks, but in saner times there was a reasonable correlation between arrest (as opposed to simply a stop) and guilt.

          9 votes
          1. Greg
            Link Parent
            I appreciate the correction - the hierarchy from stopped->arrested->charged->convicted is an important one and I'd shifted the burden of proof down a level. But as you rightly say, that's unlikely...

            I appreciate the correction - the hierarchy from stopped->arrested->charged->convicted is an important one and I'd shifted the burden of proof down a level. But as you rightly say, that's unlikely to be a significant shield in a system where abuse is the intent.

            11 votes
  2. [30]
    l_one
    (edited )
    Link
    There's a lot, and it keeps getting added to. Migrant detention bill passes final Senate approval, pardons for the Jan 6 Insurrectionists, countermanding a bunch of Biden-presidency executive...

    There's a lot, and it keeps getting added to.

    Migrant detention bill passes final Senate approval, pardons for the Jan 6 Insurrectionists, countermanding a bunch of Biden-presidency executive actions, blocking the issuing of any new regulation until the Trump administration 'has full control' of the government, withdrawal from the Paris Climate Treaty, renaming the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America, removing anti-discrimination protections for gender identity or sexual orientation from the Department of Education, declared a national emergency at the US/Mexico border and is sending military? (is sending or just talking about it - unclear yet as I read through this), declaring drug cartels as terrorist organizations, threatening tariffs on Canada and Mexico to start Feb 1, says he'll be talking with Putin soon, moving to withdraw the US from the World Health Organization AGAIN...

    Update edit: 90 day suspension for foreign assistance (so, Ukraine, Taiwan... everyone) 'pending reviews' or pending 'who bribes me the most' I suppose?, compelling attorney general to make sure states have lethal injection drugs, halts offshore wind lease sales / approvals / permits etc... (green energy bad, burn oil good), signs memorandum allowing security clearances (including the highest levels of clearances) for aides who are still waiting on background checks...

    31 votes
    1. [16]
      mild_takes
      Link Parent
      I hate to agree with him on something, but I don't think he's off base on this one. It just depends on how he goes forward dealing with it, which I assume will be all bluster. Stomping all over a...

      declaring drug cartels as terrorist organizations

      I hate to agree with him on something, but I don't think he's off base on this one. It just depends on how he goes forward dealing with it, which I assume will be all bluster.

      Trump says he could place 25% tariffs on Canada and Mexico starting Feb. 1. He declined to give a date on China tariffs.

      Stomping all over a close ally while cozying up to China sucks. As one of the many Canadians here on Tildes, I'm pretty concerned about our future.

      26 votes
      1. [10]
        Eji1700
        Link Parent
        I believe this might actually affect banking laws on the subject and make some of that come under higher scrutiny, which could help. I see basically no reason the US should be sending troops into...

        I hate to agree with him on something, but I don't think he's off base on this one. It just depends on how he goes forward dealing with it, which I assume will be all bluster.

        I believe this might actually affect banking laws on the subject and make some of that come under higher scrutiny, which could help. I see basically no reason the US should be sending troops into mexico though. There's likely no scenario where we somehow help the situation unless directly invited, and even then i'd say it's a risky thing.

        13 votes
        1. [9]
          Plik
          Link Parent
          Man, I really hope more banking laws don't get made. It's hard enough as it is to maintain a bank account as a non-resident US citizen.

          Man, I really hope more banking laws don't get made. It's hard enough as it is to maintain a bank account as a non-resident US citizen.

          8 votes
          1. [8]
            Eji1700
            Link Parent
            I don't think this admin is going to be that friendly in general to the desires of non us citizens or the issues they encounter.

            I don't think this admin is going to be that friendly in general to the desires of non us citizens or the issues they encounter.

            8 votes
            1. [6]
              DrStone
              Link Parent
              Non-resident US citizen, not non-citizen. There’s already so many rules and regulations and checks and reporting involved with financial and related accounts of US citizens living abroad. It’s...

              Non-resident US citizen, not non-citizen. There’s already so many rules and regulations and checks and reporting involved with financial and related accounts of US citizens living abroad. It’s difficult to get even basic things set up or done in that situation.

              15 votes
              1. [5]
                Eji1700
                Link Parent
                Ah my apologies I completely misread that. And hell I suspect the current admin isn't going to give a damn still unfortunately.

                Ah my apologies I completely misread that. And hell I suspect the current admin isn't going to give a damn still unfortunately.

                8 votes
                1. [4]
                  Odysseus
                  Link Parent
                  There's a lot of wealthy Americans with offshore bank accounts. At the very least, I remember reading an article in the national reporting that Trump is considering loosening regulations for US...

                  There's a lot of wealthy Americans with offshore bank accounts. At the very least, I remember reading an article in the national reporting that Trump is considering loosening regulations for US citizens overseas.

                  4 votes
                  1. [3]
                    RoyalHenOil
                    Link Parent
                    There is currently a bill in the works that would loosen tax reporting requirements for average US citizens who live permanently overseas. Such a bill has a lot of potential for unintended...

                    There is currently a bill in the works that would loosen tax reporting requirements for average US citizens who live permanently overseas. Such a bill has a lot of potential for unintended knock-on effects, so a bipartisan team of lawmakers have been working out the kinks for years. It is expected to come up for a vote soon, maybe even this year.

                    Trump caught wind of this and decided to add it to his platform so that he can claim credit, even though he has nothing to do with its existence. His only role is to sign it, which is something any other Democratic or Republican president would do; it's not in any meaningful way a controversial bill. It's just a tricky one to write.

                    9 votes
                    1. [2]
                      Odysseus
                      Link Parent
                      I really hope it comes to pass. Being a US citizen abroad is really annoying when it comes to anything banking related, and I really don't make that much money

                      I really hope it comes to pass. Being a US citizen abroad is really annoying when it comes to anything banking related, and I really don't make that much money

                      5 votes
                      1. RoyalHenOil
                        (edited )
                        Link Parent
                        Me too! I have been dutifully answering surveys, writing letters, etc., to try to encourage it along. Especially now that the US dollar is so strong against my own currency (Australian dollars),...

                        Me too! I have been dutifully answering surveys, writing letters, etc., to try to encourage it along.

                        Especially now that the US dollar is so strong against my own currency (Australian dollars), reporting my Australians assets and income to the IRS and FinCEN has become a bigger financial burden than ever.

                        I'm deeply grateful that I opened up my Australian bank account in 2012, just a few years before US reporting requirements ballooned out of control. I'm not even sure I would be able to open a new bank account today; American citizens are such a bureaucratic headache for foreign banks, and it's usually not worth it for them unless the customer is rich.

                        4 votes
            2. Plik
              Link Parent
              Non-resident, not non-citizen. Non-resident you get treated like a terrorist money laundering operation.

              Non-resident, not non-citizen.

              Non-resident you get treated like a terrorist money laundering operation.

              3 votes
      2. [3]
        vord
        Link Parent
        As I recall, harboring terrorist organizations qualifies your country to be declared an enemy of the state, which is in line with using the Alien Enemies act to deport all people of Mexican...

        As I recall, harboring terrorist organizations qualifies your country to be declared an enemy of the state, which is in line with using the Alien Enemies act to deport all people of Mexican descent.

        Also unilaterally declaring war on Mexico without congressional approval.

        7 votes
        1. [2]
          mild_takes
          Link Parent
          Are you meaning in terms of the use of force resolution (I thought it was a declaration of war but I guess not) from 2001? I don't think this would give him authority to just go in there just by...

          Also unilaterally declaring war on Mexico without congressional approval.

          Are you meaning in terms of the use of force resolution (I thought it was a declaration of war but I guess not) from 2001?

          “use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks” as well as against anyone who “harbored” them

          I don't think this would give him authority to just go in there just by declaring them "terrorists"

          Also, I wouldn't really say Mexico is harbouring the cartels. Certain elements are but I believe officially they're against the cartels?

          4 votes
          1. vord
            Link Parent
            Yes. W Bush also was seriously contemplating starting Iraq war without congress. And ultimately it doesn't matter if there is any truth to the allegation. He just needs a plausible-enough...

            Yes. W Bush also was seriously contemplating starting Iraq war without congress.

            And ultimately it doesn't matter if there is any truth to the allegation. He just needs a plausible-enough soundbite to rally base to justify war, regardless of reality so he can start pumping all the Hispanics into concentration camps.

            4 votes
      3. [2]
        snake_case
        Link Parent
        Depends on how he decides to define drug cartels I guess.

        Depends on how he decides to define drug cartels I guess.

        4 votes
        1. raze2012
          Link Parent
          Yeah. When's he declaring all of Nixon's conspirators as a drug cartel?

          Yeah. When's he declaring all of Nixon's conspirators as a drug cartel?

          3 votes
    2. [5]
      Zorind
      Link Parent
      The security clearance bit is worrying to me. Like it makes sense to want your aides that need a clearance to have one (so they can start working), but just granting them rather than expediting...

      The security clearance bit is worrying to me. Like it makes sense to want your aides that need a clearance to have one (so they can start working), but just granting them rather than expediting the review is…exactly what I would expect, but not a good thing.

      Also, I know that the US Gov has separation of powers and all that, but has there been something like the executive order for the TikTok ban at a national level where the President is explicitly informing a federal agency/the government to just…not enforce a law? Because that has worrying implications

      15 votes
      1. [4]
        l_one
        Link Parent
        I see the theme going forward as 'put as many loyalists in positions of power as possible, do stuff not allowed by law, have the loyalists blatantly lie saying illegal things X, Y, and Z are...

        I see the theme going forward as 'put as many loyalists in positions of power as possible, do stuff not allowed by law, have the loyalists blatantly lie saying illegal things X, Y, and Z are actually totally legal and always were'.

        They have the Supreme Court installed with a majority of loyalists.

        Things are going to get ugly.

        18 votes
        1. [3]
          Grumble4681
          Link Parent
          I read this article the other day. How Trump plans to cement control of government by dismantling the 'deep state' One of the things that came to mind is, is this a way to influence voters for...

          I read this article the other day.

          How Trump plans to cement control of government by dismantling the 'deep state'

          One of the things that came to mind is, is this a way to influence voters for Trump? Literally, your job is on the line unless you voted for Trump. I know the federal government employs a lot of people, but in the areas where it matters in the short term (anything that isn't solid or or maybe solid red), is it a significant number of voters? That's of course assuming it's influential enough to compel people to vote differently than they would otherwise. It's also assuming the opponent isn't running the same scheme, which to this point that has never been indicated to be the case. Trump is the only one indicating he's going to run this way, and I fear it's going to set a precedent where it compels everyone to act this way if influencing federal employees to vote for you is a relatively significant factor in voting outcomes.

          If one opponent is saying they'll fire everyone who isn't a loyalist and the other isn't making such threats, to prove you're a loyalist you might vote for the one making those threats, as at least it protects your job with limited to no personal consequences. If you're the opponent you're almost now compelled to make the same threat, as long as there's no clear front-runner then people might vote how they feel. Furthermore, once this cycle has happened once, and 'loyalists' have been installed, whether the 'deep state' existed before or not, it seemingly now does. Now you have to get rid of the 'loyalists' if you're the opposition and have won, because if you don't, you can assume that if they're really loyalists they will attempt to sabotage you. Now the cycle really won't stop, because if someone fires all those loyalists and replaces them, that will look like installing their own loyalists even if that's not the intention or the driving force of how they employ replacements. Now every election onwards will have to be a purge of 'loyalists'.

          4 votes
          1. [2]
            l_one
            Link Parent
            I genuinely don't think that is the purpose, or if it is, it's a very minor secondary bonus. My understanding is that this is not to get federal employees to vote for trump, but to get them to be...

            influencing federal employees to vote for you

            I genuinely don't think that is the purpose, or if it is, it's a very minor secondary bonus.

            My understanding is that this is not to get federal employees to vote for trump, but to get them to be obedient and loyal to trump.

            He wants to do a bunch of illegal stuff - in order to do that, he needs enough people in positions where they could say 'that is an illegal order and I won't follow it' to instead say 'well, that is an illegal order, but I can either follow it or lose my job' and then do what he orders, irrelevant if it is legal or not.

            Now the cycle really won't stop, because if someone fires all those loyalists and replaces them, that will look like installing their own loyalists even if that's not the intention or the driving force of how they employ replacements.

            This effect can be somewhat mitigated if a victorious opposition party re-hires a majority of those who originally had the positions, or at least makes a significant, publicly visible good-faith effort to do so.

            6 votes
            1. Grumble4681
              Link Parent
              Yeah I don't think it's the purpose either, but I do see it as a secondary effect that is concerning.

              I genuinely don't think that is the purpose, or if it is, it's a very minor secondary bonus.

              Yeah I don't think it's the purpose either, but I do see it as a secondary effect that is concerning.

              2 votes
    3. [8]
      raze2012
      Link Parent
      I can't believe this alone isn't just blowing up everywhere right now. The US spent years chasing these people down and Trump was in multiple court cases over it. And poof! All gone? What was even...

      pardons for the Jan 6 Insurrectionists,

      I can't believe this alone isn't just blowing up everywhere right now. The US spent years chasing these people down and Trump was in multiple court cases over it. And poof! All gone? What was even the point?

      10 votes
      1. [7]
        first-must-burn
        Link Parent
        While the justice department spent years chasing people down, the Fox news half of the country thinks it didn't even happen. Those of us that should be angry just watched the instigator get...

        While the justice department spent years chasing people down, the Fox news half of the country thinks it didn't even happen. Those of us that should be angry just watched the instigator get re-elected. The Democrats had four years to put him in jail and didn't. As far as I'm concerned, they failed me just as badly.

        I'm honestly numb. None of it surprised me anymore.

        16 votes
        1. [6]
          Minori
          Link Parent
          January 6th is the most important political event that has happened during my life, and I've been continuously disappointed Republicans in power did fuck all about it. I watched it happening live,...

          January 6th is the most important political event that has happened during my life, and I've been continuously disappointed Republicans in power did fuck all about it. I watched it happening live, and I thought it had to be a true turning point in American politics. Instead, Republicans refused to convict Trump because they figured he'd simply fade away to Florida.

          I really hoped we'd come out of it with a stronger national commitment to Democracy. Instead, Trump won a narrow majority. At this point, I can only hope we'll still have free and fair elections in four years. I'm concerned America is taking the path of Hungary.

          9 votes
          1. [3]
            first-must-burn
            Link Parent
            I agree wholeheartedly. I think my biggest disappointment is the realization that the elite (both corporate and political) will choose money/power over principle every time. I don't think anybody...

            I agree wholeheartedly. I think my biggest disappointment is the realization that the elite (both corporate and political) will choose money/power over principle every time.

            I don't think anybody was ready for the groundswell of popular support Trump tapped into in 2015. But instead of putting a stop to it, the Republicans party elite chose to ride the racism/nationalism/fascism/trump train down the rabbit hole rather than taking action to put a stop to it and risk undermining their power base.

            I don't really think the Democrats are any better, just that they can more easily and less obviously sit just left of center and use the party machine to fend off progressive challenges from further left.

            As someone here said the other day, "I don't know how we got here, but we sure are here."

            4 votes
            1. [2]
              Minori
              Link Parent
              The Democrats biggest problem at a federal level is that they're a gerontocracy. I've heard from multiple high level staffers that many of the old farts are just coasting and continue picking the...

              The Democrats biggest problem at a federal level is that they're a gerontocracy. I've heard from multiple high level staffers that many of the old farts are just coasting and continue picking the same friends and allies they had decades ago. While the Republicans have many many problems, their party has clearly gone through more radical shifts to heed the winds of change.

              I don't even think that many of the old guard are all that conservative. Nancy Pelosi has been a proud supporter of LGBTQ rights for many decades as a representative from San Francisco. Dems are largely failing to promote new talent and turn over the reigns (with some exceptions like Pelosi passing the speakership).

              I don't think term limits are the answer as this hasn't been a problem with Congress historically. My gut feeling is that uncompetitive, gerrymandered districts have made incumbents stronger. Potentially coupled with the decreased interest in local news?

              1 vote
              1. first-must-burn
                Link Parent
                That's a good point, and I do think it's a factor. But I think it's also a preference for establishment / business friendly candidates. Bernie Sanders is an old dude, but he is a true progressive...

                That's a good point, and I do think it's a factor. But I think it's also a preference for establishment / business friendly candidates.

                Bernie Sanders is an old dude, but he is a true progressive with receipts, and he got pushed out in favor of Hilary in 2016. Can you imagine if we'd had a Sanders/Warren vs Trump/Pence election? I'd pick that timeline over the current one any day, age notwithstanding.

          2. [2]
            l_one
            Link Parent
            I can darn near guarantee trump does not intend for that to happen.

            At this point, I can only hope we'll still have free and fair elections in four years.

            I can darn near guarantee trump does not intend for that to happen.

            2 votes
            1. Minori
              Link Parent
              I'm not sure. Trump's only upsides are that he's old and in poor health. Americans can always be trusted to be mercurial with their politics. If Trump does crash the economy, I have no clue how...

              I'm not sure. Trump's only upsides are that he's old and in poor health. Americans can always be trusted to be mercurial with their politics. If Trump does crash the economy, I have no clue how any MAGA successors could successfully run on his legacy. None of his sycophants have been popular at the national level.

              4 votes
  3. [2]
    Greg
    Link
    He’s revoked a huge number of Biden’s executive actions, including: Executive Order 13986 of January 20, 2021 (Ensuring a Lawful and Accurate Enumeration and Apportionment Pursuant to the...

    He’s revoked a huge number of Biden’s executive actions, including:

    • Executive Order 13986 of January 20, 2021 (Ensuring a Lawful and Accurate Enumeration and Apportionment Pursuant to the Decennial Census)

    • Executive Order 13989 of January 20, 2021 (Ethics Commitments by Executive Branch Personnel)

    • Executive Order 13990 of January 20, 2021 (Protecting Public Health and the Environment and Restoring Science To Tackle the Climate Crisis)

    • Executive Order 13999 of January 21, 2021 (Protecting Worker Health and Safety)

    • Executive Order 14006 of January 26, 2021 (Reforming Our Incarceration System To Eliminate the Use of Privately Operated Criminal Detention Facilities)

    • Executive Order 14008 of January 27, 2021 (Tackling the Climate Crisis at Home and Abroad)

    • Executive Order 14009 of January 28, 2021 (Strengthening Medicaid and the Affordable Care Act)

    • Executive Order 14011 of February 2, 2021 (Establishment of Interagency Task Force on the Reunification of Families)

    • Executive Order 14087 of October 14, 2022 (Lowering Prescription Drug Costs for Americans)

    Obviously I understand that the titles are marketing and don’t necessarily mean what they say, and I’ve absolutely editorialised in the ones I highlighted (although I got too depressed to keep going pretty quickly, so I’m sure there are plenty more to be found), but yeah. The tone of his presidency starts with that as the list of things he’s against. It’s transparently, unashamedly evil to a degree even I wasn’t expecting.

    23 votes
    1. [2]
      Comment deleted by author
      Link Parent
      1. l_one
        Link Parent
        A big part of Project 2025, a Mandate to Dictatorial Fascism is the installation of a loyalist government that will put obedience to trump over obedience to the Constitution. So, yes. In part...

        A big part of Project 2025, a Mandate to Dictatorial Fascism is the installation of a loyalist government that will put obedience to trump over obedience to the Constitution.

        So, yes. In part anyway. Part of it is also just 'destroy the legacies of anyone who came before me since I am the greatest and I have to make sure everyone knows all the other presidents who came before ME were terrible and horrible at their job and only I'm the best' ramble ramble ramble...

        8 votes
  4. [3]
    Dr_Amazing
    Link
    renaming the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America I know this is pretty benign compared to everything else in there, but this really jumped out to me as an especially pointless dumb one.

    renaming the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America

    I know this is pretty benign compared to everything else in there, but this really jumped out to me as an especially pointless dumb one.

    22 votes
    1. [2]
      hobbes64
      Link Parent
      In a month or two lets check back to see if this is in the top ten pointless dumb things he does. I think it won't be.

      In a month or two lets check back to see if this is in the top ten pointless dumb things he does. I think it won't be.

      10 votes
      1. DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        I'm afraid it won't be, because it's the iceberg tip of the US going for Panama and Greenland, and not because it's stupid

        I'm afraid it won't be, because it's the iceberg tip of the US going for Panama and Greenland, and not because it's stupid

        6 votes
  5. [23]
    winther
    Link
    And Musk is making Nazi-salutes ... Since 2016 I have heard that it was an over-reaction to call them nazis. What about now?

    And Musk is making Nazi-salutes ...

    Since 2016 I have heard that it was an over-reaction to call them nazis. What about now?

    23 votes
    1. [20]
      TheRtRevKaiser
      Link Parent
      Oh there are plenty of folks wringing their hands about "oh it's just an awkward gesture, he said 'my heart goes out to you'" or "it was just a Roman salute". Lots of folks who are weirdly willing...

      Oh there are plenty of folks wringing their hands about "oh it's just an awkward gesture, he said 'my heart goes out to you'" or "it was just a Roman salute". Lots of folks who are weirdly willing to carry water for these fucking fascists.

      18 votes
      1. [3]
        DefinitelyNotAFae
        Link Parent
        And to clarify since the other thread is frozen, a Roman Salute is just what Mussolini and his era of Italians made up based on absolutely vague descriptions of what Romans did. Doing a "Roman...

        And to clarify since the other thread is frozen, a Roman Salute is just what Mussolini and his era of Italians made up based on absolutely vague descriptions of what Romans did. Doing a "Roman Salute" today is engaging with the fascist fantasies of the Roman Empire and 1920s-40s Europe.

        It's literally called the fascist salute on Wikipedia. And not for other references to fasces. Those falling back on "Roman salute" aren't absolving him the way they think they are.

        21 votes
        1. [2]
          TheRtRevKaiser
          Link Parent
          Yeah it's definitely obfuscation. People pulled this kind of shit all the time during the first Trump admin, they'd try to muddy the waters just enough to let "moderates" ignore all the bigoted...

          Yeah it's definitely obfuscation. People pulled this kind of shit all the time during the first Trump admin, they'd try to muddy the waters just enough to let "moderates" ignore all the bigoted dogwhistles coming out of the admin, until the next thing came along a day or two later.

          10 votes
          1. kingofsnake
            Link Parent
            I'm leaning toward this. Do the wildest, most offensive thing and keep them guessing. It's right from Vince McMahon's Attitude era wrestling playbook. 'Heat' they call it. You want plenty of heat...

            I'm leaning toward this.

            Do the wildest, most offensive thing and keep them guessing. It's right from Vince McMahon's Attitude era wrestling playbook.

            'Heat' they call it. You want plenty of heat so that you're #1 in the ratings.

            I'm not about to say it's not a bunch of fascists, but I would definitely lean on it being the cast of Jackass, but the billionaire version.

            3 votes
      2. [2]
        winther
        Link Parent
        Yeah, it is really kinda disconcerting how much even mainstream media, also here in Europe, is trying to downplay this, with weird headlines like "Musk is making a strange gesture". Same media...

        Yeah, it is really kinda disconcerting how much even mainstream media, also here in Europe, is trying to downplay this, with weird headlines like "Musk is making a strange gesture". Same media that call scandal against other politicians for minor mishaps.

        10 votes
        1. Minori
          Link Parent
          They're sanewashing his blatant Nazi signalling. You don't "accidentally" give a "Roman salute" three times. I no longer have a NYT subscription because they're rolling over for the new...

          They're sanewashing his blatant Nazi signalling. You don't "accidentally" give a "Roman salute" three times. I no longer have a NYT subscription because they're rolling over for the new administration.

          4 votes
      3. [14]
        Greg
        Link Parent
        The fucking ADL are covering for him. That's the one that truly caught me off guard here.

        The fucking ADL are covering for him. That's the one that truly caught me off guard here.

        9 votes
        1. [2]
          winther
          Link Parent
          If he made the okay hand gesture I could understand that line of reasoning, but this way of doing a Nazi-salute is hardly anything ambiguous or something that can be misunderstood. Of course,...

          If he made the okay hand gesture I could understand that line of reasoning, but this way of doing a Nazi-salute is hardly anything ambiguous or something that can be misunderstood. Of course, neo-Nazis are cheering.

          IF Musk actually didn't mean anything by this, then he could have made a statement saying so, but he hasn't, so clearly he knows what he is doing. He is knowingly riling up the neo-Nazi crowd.

          11 votes
          1. Grumble4681
            Link Parent
            I don't give Elon the benefit of the doubt on anything anymore. I would expect he did this intentionally, whether he personally sympathizes with neo-Nazis or he is one or not. He seems to operate...

            I don't give Elon the benefit of the doubt on anything anymore. I would expect he did this intentionally, whether he personally sympathizes with neo-Nazis or he is one or not. He seems to operate under any headline is a good headline, he seems to intentionally want to ruffle feathers and I think he's even said that posting on Twitter is his job now. To me, a lot of what he's doing is to try to drive traffic back to Twitter. Basically the more 'news' he can drum up, the more likely it is that some of the 'engagement' that occurs from it will occur on Twitter.

            Look at this thread for example. There's a link to twitter and ADL's statement on the matter. That's clicks to his site, and possibly he's counting on people making links like that and people clicking through, getting into the discussion, then getting pulled into other areas on the platform as well. As a general rule, I do not click on these links. Sometimes I'll go out of my way to find a source that isn't on twitter, or if I can't easily find one, I'll go to the twitter link and get the source material and take it off there and put it somewhere else and link to that to make it so others don't have to go there to see the post.

            Having said all that, I could believe someone, not Elon, but someone, could make an accidental Nazi salute. I'll be honest, without looking it up, I don't even know how to do whatever a normal salute might be, like the ones the military does or such, and if I try to act it out as I think it is, I almost feel like I'm making a Nazi salute. So I guess I don't know how to do a non-Nazi salute without looking it up.

            7 votes
        2. [6]
          l_one
          Link Parent
          Ok, I'm going to put on a bit of a conspiracy theorist hat here. That post is on X / Twitter, which Musk owns and controls. I don't (currently) see a post on this topic on the ADL's website - now,...

          Ok, I'm going to put on a bit of a conspiracy theorist hat here.

          That post is on X / Twitter, which Musk owns and controls.

          I don't (currently) see a post on this topic on the ADL's website - now, I would agree this would be unlikely to be faked just by how blatant it is and how easy it would be for the ADL to make a statement about it on their site, but I would like to see something from a non-compromised source if such is available.

          6 votes
          1. [5]
            Greg
            Link Parent
            The same thought did actually cross my mind - and I hate that we’re in such an insane media environment that it’s a possibility worth considering. I hate that it being real is a possibility worth...

            The same thought did actually cross my mind - and I hate that we’re in such an insane media environment that it’s a possibility worth considering. I hate that it being real is a possibility worth considering, for that matter.

            I’d been working on the basis that if something this significant were faked, the ADL website would have a huge “holy shit we did not say that” banner up by now. I could still see it being worth faking even knowing they’d do that: first headline tends to stick, after all, and modern far right propaganda thrives on chaos and uncertainty - but the fact that it’s a day later they haven’t denied it elsewhere suggests to me it’s genuine.

            I just had another look around and according to the Wall Street Journal Jonathan Greenblatt has reiterated the same opinion in an interview today, although it doesn’t specify if they were the ones conducting that interview, or where and when he said it if not.

            1 vote
            1. [4]
              l_one
              Link Parent
              If they felt like being particularly blatant - say, if the owner of X/Twitter had just bought the presidency and his chosen candidate had assumed power, and pledged to do away with 'obstructions...

              If they felt like being particularly blatant - say, if the owner of X/Twitter had just bought the presidency and his chosen candidate had assumed power, and pledged to do away with 'obstructions to freedom of speech' which is likely to mean the exact opposite...

              Musk might be willing to pull crap like post fake posts, make them invisible to the account owners, censor messaging about said fake post going to alert the account holder... maybe even block the account holder from deleting the post and censoring follow-on posts disclaiming it, etc...

              That would only serve as a delay to the account holder becoming aware of the situation and acting upon it, but as you mentioned: 'the first headline tends to stick'. If Musk is certain he will not face legal consequences for going full-bore direct-disinformation, I could absolutely see him pulling that crap.

              Again, none of this means the ADL didn't actually post that, but I have no trust for an obviously compromised platform.

              1. [3]
                Greg
                Link Parent
                I get what you're saying; we're in a world where Nazi salutes at a US presidential inauguration happened and were applauded, that in itself would have sounded fucking insane if we hadn't just seen...

                I get what you're saying; we're in a world where Nazi salutes at a US presidential inauguration happened and were applauded, that in itself would have sounded fucking insane if we hadn't just seen it broadcast, so it's reasonable to assume the absolute worst of a platform directly controlled by the guy who did it. All I'd say is it's also worth remembering that these people are the ones who directly benefit from chaos and uncertainty.

                In general, we should trust nothing on Twitter unless corroborated elsewhere. But at the same time we have to be ready to accept that if something is all over every social media platform and the international news, and has been for almost 24 hours without the person it's attributed to making any attempt to refute it, that's reasonable corroboration.

                Much as we need to be on the lookout for misinformation, we also need to be careful not to talk ourselves or others out of believing things that we do know with reasonable confidence.

                8 votes
                1. [2]
                  l_one
                  Link Parent
                  Oh, I very much agree. The most likely explanation is that the ADL did actually post that post, my viewpoint was that of having something like 75% belief of validity and recognizing the potential...

                  But at the same time we have to be ready to accept that if something is all over every social media platform and the international news, and has been for almost 24 hours without the person it's attributed to making any attempt to refute it, that's reasonable corroboration.

                  Oh, I very much agree. The most likely explanation is that the ADL did actually post that post, my viewpoint was that of having something like 75% belief of validity and recognizing the potential causes of my 25% doubt instead of having an automatic 99% belief of validity.

                  Given, that 75% increased / continues to increase towards unity as time goes by without refutation.

                  2 votes
                  1. Greg
                    Link Parent
                    Got you, that makes sense!

                    Got you, that makes sense!

                    1 vote
        3. [4]
          AugustusFerdinand
          Link Parent
          ADL is a pro-Israel (above all), pro-zionism group and Israel/zionists love apartheid. So of course they'd cover for him.

          ADL is a pro-Israel (above all), pro-zionism group and Israel/zionists love apartheid. So of course they'd cover for him.

          2 votes
          1. [3]
            winther
            Link Parent
            They really have to do some crazy mental gymnastics for a pro-Israel group to defend a Nazi-salute.

            They really have to do some crazy mental gymnastics for a pro-Israel group to defend a Nazi-salute.

            2 votes
            1. Minori
              Link Parent
              I don't think it's as crazy as you think. I outlined some reasons in another comment.

              I don't think it's as crazy as you think. I outlined some reasons in another comment.

              1 vote
        4. Minori
          Link Parent
          They've defended Trump before, and they've been making moves to strengthen their connections to the Trump administration. The ADL's statement seems like part of the general trend of organizations...

          They've defended Trump before, and they've been making moves to strengthen their connections to the Trump administration. The ADL's statement seems like part of the general trend of organizations providing cover or looking the other way to curry political favor with Trump.

          2 votes
    2. vord
      Link Parent
      That's a really weird way of phrasing "corruption" and "oligarchy."

      The moment sharply illustrated the unusual partnership the billionaire tech titan, who has lucrative contracts with the federal government, has established with the incoming president.

      That's a really weird way of phrasing "corruption" and "oligarchy."

      6 votes
    3. l_one
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Yep. Here's my weird take on the blatantly obvious Seig Heil salute: It's entirely possible Musk and/or trump don't associate with or care for Nazi ideology at all. When you take power like trump...

      Yep.

      Here's my weird take on the blatantly obvious Seig Heil salute:

      It's entirely possible Musk and/or trump don't associate with or care for Nazi ideology at all. When you take power like trump did, it's important to have enemies - a group or groups you can point to in front of your voting base and proclaim 'THESE PEOPLE! THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING BAD IN YOUR LIFE. THE ECONOMY, THE PEOPLE YOU FEEL RACIST / SEXIST TOWARDS, THEM!!!!! THEY, THOSE, OTHER, ENEMY!!!! SEE HOW I HATE THEM TOO! IF YOU GIVE ME ENOUGH POWER, I'LL MAKE THEM ALL GO AWAY wink wink nudge nudge concentration camcough I mean prison camps.'

      Fanning the flames of xenophobia and hate, pointing at a convenient enemy, is a common route to autocratic power. You NEED an enemy to point to as the cause of all your failings, to say 'the immigrants are taking your jobs and are why the economy is bad and grocery prices are high and housing is hard etc...' to prevent your base from understanding that you, in fact, are the problem.

      Maybe they are actually Nazis. Maybe they just pretend and hint at being Nazis to get the hateful on their side. Got to have that coalition of evil now don't we.

      Edit: oh, and it's also another step on the path of suppressing truth and the free press. You can already see how many media organizations are reluctant to call it what it is: a Nazi salute - because they are shying away from getting sued for libel / slander or worse. Every blatant act they get away with will encourage the next, and I'm sure they will viciously attack any media willing to call them out for what they are doing.

      5 votes
  6. [2]
    Akir
    Link
    Please tag this as USA.

    Please tag this as USA.

    4 votes
    1. l_one
      Link Parent
      Oh, my bad. Looks like a mod took care of it. I'll remember if it comes up again.

      Oh, my bad. Looks like a mod took care of it. I'll remember if it comes up again.

      5 votes