This is some pretty wild stuff. Modern day concentration camps being set up outside the rule of law. Clearly these 30,000 people are not going to have any meaningful access to lawyers or civilian...
This is some pretty wild stuff. Modern day concentration camps being set up outside the rule of law. Clearly these 30,000 people are not going to have any meaningful access to lawyers or civilian courts. From the sound of it, it's being set up for indefinite detention too.
"Most people don’t even know about it. We have 30,000 beds in Guantánamo to detain the worst criminal illegal aliens threatening the American people. Some of them are so bad we don’t even trust the countries to hold them, because we don’t want them coming back," he added.
The previous thread on this was deleted. So I will choose my words carefully Invoking the Alien Enemies Act has not been done since WWII when it was invoked against Japanese Americans. It does not...
Modern day concentration camps being set up outside the rule of law. Clearly these 30,000 people are not going to have any meaningful access to lawyers or civilian courts. From the sound of it, it's being set up for indefinite detention too.
The previous thread on this was deleted. So I will choose my words carefully
Invoking the Alien Enemies Act has not been done since WWII when it was invoked against Japanese Americans. It does not let them target criminals, it lets them target people for their identities and it absolutely lets them target citizens, as evidenced by the past.
This is not normal, this is not OK, please do the things you can to oppose this.
As far as I know, the legal authority FDR used to detain and intern ~150,000 Japanese Americans has never been explicitly overturned by the Supreme Court nor Congress, so this may be something...
As far as I know, the legal authority FDR used to detain and intern ~150,000 Japanese Americans has never been explicitly overturned by the Supreme Court nor Congress, so this may be something Trump can simply decide to do. I'm extremely uncertain whether the Court would rule against Trump here and strike down that precedent from WWII.
It's possible they would overturn the precedent since, in 2018, Chief Justice John Roberts wrote:
"The forcible relocation of U.S. citizens to concentration camps, solely and explicitly on the basis of race, is objectively unlawful and outside the scope of Presidential authority."
It should not be legal. And yet. But similarly, due process is supposed to extend to everyone in the US, Guantanamo's use as a prison was predicated on them not being citizens and being prisoners,...
It should not be legal. And yet.
But similarly, due process is supposed to extend to everyone in the US, Guantanamo's use as a prison was predicated on them not being citizens and being prisoners, but not technically prisoners of war, creating a legal black hole that they were dropped into and left for years. Revoking birthright citizenship, on the argument that undocumented immigrants are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US... pokes the holes that Laken-Riley widened and that this would tear open.
Better to do everything we cant to stop it now, before we have to hope the Supreme Court will make a reasonable ruling.
ETA: IIRC there's been 1-2 citizens held at Guantanamo (the prison) before. Couldn't say about the "caught you while you were trying to get to the US" detention center.
Guantanamo is not exactly a legal black hole anymore, as a result of this lawsuit, but what’s interesting is that it was only a 5-4 decision. With the court’s disinterest in precedent and a...
Guantanamo is not exactly a legal black hole anymore, as a result of this lawsuit, but what’s interesting is that it was only a 5-4 decision. With the court’s disinterest in precedent and a supermajority of conservatives, we may well see Guantanamo returned to its former status of being beyond the reach of the courts.
I do want to note there's a migrant holding center there already separate from the prison. As far as I'm aware it's to deflect people coming by sea before they set foot on the US and may claim...
I do want to note there's a migrant holding center there already separate from the prison.
As far as I'm aware it's to deflect people coming by sea before they set foot on the US and may claim asylum, etc. I don't want to presume the prison is the intended destination, or whether they plan to use the footprint of either and rebuild.
But I think the evocation of Guantanamo was also symbolic and thus intended to imply a "black hole" for "bad people "
Please check this thread: https://tildes.net/~society/1lm7/ten_ideas_to_oppose_the_donald_trump_us_administration Some thoughts based on this: calling your reps, donating to orgs that will...
Some thoughts based on this: calling your reps, donating to orgs that will challenge this, donating or volunteering with orgs in your community that are helping folks, learning your rights and ensuring you are doing what you can to protect folks in your community.
Support local organisations that create alternative social support structures outside of the government. I'm not religious, but many churches shelter migrants and offer social services to attendees. Plenty of non-religious legal aid and social organizations can always use more volunteers to do good in the world.
If you don't have time, money can also support organisations. Try finding local organizations you can support to do more things you want to see in your community. I personally donate to local urbanist organizations.
Setting aside any moral arguments about political violence, this wouldn't solve the underlying issue. Trump has a very good approval rating (49% approve). 52% of Americans now say the country is...
Setting aside any moral arguments about political violence, this wouldn't solve the underlying issue. Trump has a very good approval rating (49% approve). 52% of Americans now say the country is going in the right direction.
Oh I know. The only real option is to survive four years, and hope he doesn't figure out a way to become president for life + store his brain in a jar.
Oh I know. The only real option is to survive four years, and hope he doesn't figure out a way to become president for life + store his brain in a jar.
I saw at least part of that thread and understand why it got heated. These are serious harms being readied, and a very dark path we are collectively walking down.
I saw at least part of that thread and understand why it got heated. These are serious harms being readied, and a very dark path we are collectively walking down.
Just to give an example that this has been done before in recent years, AZ's prior elected sheriff, Joe Arapio, built a "tent city" that he called a concentration camp on multiple occasions. (I...
Good lord that intro. I know it's only tangential to your point but I feel compelled to respond. A worse insult would be to have not learned anything from them.
Good lord that intro. I know it's only tangential to your point but I feel compelled to respond.
Nothing good comes from comparing anything to Hitler or Nazi Germany. Because nothing, no matter how awful, could be as bad, and the comparison is an insult to the millions who lost their lives in the Holocaust.
Period.
End of story.
A worse insult would be to have not learned anything from them.
AZ Central is usually a pretty good news outlet. But apparently that specific author now only writes opinion pieces, and (in my opinion) they all seem a bit heavy on provoking emotion (many in...
AZ Central is usually a pretty good news outlet. But apparently that specific author now only writes opinion pieces, and (in my opinion) they all seem a bit heavy on provoking emotion (many in clickbait style).
If there is a silver lining to the insanity that is the last week or so, it's that the new administration is hopefully coming on too strong, too fast, and will alienate a significant part of their...
If there is a silver lining to the insanity that is the last week or so, it's that the new administration is hopefully coming on too strong, too fast, and will alienate a significant part of their public support.
Putting aside that sending migrants to an offshore camp to be dealt with extralegally is wrong on many levels and straight up evil... Guantanamo has a bad name on both sides of the aisle, seems like a terrible PR move at a time when things are sketchy for them (grocery prices, bird flu, medicare, etc..)
I guess the strategy is shock, awe and see how much manages to slip through amid the torrent. They don't have 4 years after all, just 2 until the midterms.
I hate to be a wet blanket, but I think the time for holding out hope that something like this will change hearts and minds, especially on the other side of the aisle, has long past. Here’s an...
Exemplary
I hate to be a wet blanket, but I think the time for holding out hope that something like this will change hearts and minds, especially on the other side of the aisle, has long past.
Here’s an example of why I say that. This is an archive link of OAN’s coverage of the topic (because I don’t want to drive traffic to the actual site).
The only thing in the article that breaks rank is the inclusion of the Cuban President’s response:
Meanwhile, Cuban President Miguel Díaz-Canel slammed the decision, referring to the outpost as “well-known prisons of torture and illegal detention.”
How do people in the comments feel about that?
Hey Mr Blake Wolf [the author of the news story] why do you care what the Cuban president is saying. I dont and it’s not news. Stop wasting my time with innuendos and stick with the story.
Cuba, known for hearing gossip from a neighbor and making whole families disappear overnight, has a dictator lecturing the USA about torturing and detaining CUBAN criminals in the USA. Notice how Dizzy Canal doesn't want them back in his country.
I’m going to collapse the next one, as it contains an explicit call for violence (which, as I’ll soon get to, is a running theme).
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Cuban President Miguel Díaz-Canel is right where we need him to be. We throw him in the clink and when his men come to free him, we shoot and whomever survives, we throw them in the clink, too! Right along with the most dangerous 3rd world criminals that is probably Satan spawned! I'll bet he will love it!
When presented with potentially conflicting information, we can see commenters reject it, resort to whataboutism as a dodge, and escalate calls for violence.
The first two are concerning enough, but it’s the third that’s genuinely terrifying. That commenter is also far from alone. There aren’t very many comments on this news article but many of them are calls for violence:
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Carrying out death sentences on the invading trash would be very cost effective
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The ocean is very close and the sharks are very hungry ???
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I don’t want my tax dollars paying for this. Send them back to their countries with the stipulation that if they return they will be shot on sight
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A 22LR is cheaper.
The commenters also endorse utilizing Gitmo for political revenge:
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I can think of a bunch of traitors from biDUMB on down that should be locked up there!!!!
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If only he was sending bureaucrats from Washington with them. Pity...
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Most of the lawless Socialist Demon / RINO supporting White House self serving corrupt politicians belong in Gitmo.For treason against American. And against all USA citizens, Period
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I hope obama, biden, harris, pelosi, schumer, gates, soros, and many others have a single reserved cell !!!
There is some dissent though! One commenter is explicitly critical of the plan:
WHY ???????
JUST SEND THEM - BACK WHERE THEY CAME FROM !!!!
While one actually meaningfully considers the logistics required to implement this:
I've never been to Gitmo, but 30K people is a big move. I think SecDef Hegseth did a tour there?
I doubt there is the housing infrastructure, and just who is going to guard these bad guys?
I sure wouldn't want that duty, as it'd be an unaccompanied tour and for how long?
Even if we send 3,000 troops to guard them, that's still 1:1000 ratio of guards to bad guys. Not to mention the required support staff to feed them, and see to their medical needs. Can't see it.
Thoughtful, right?
Only, that’s not the full comment. Here’s their last sentence:
comment (part 2)
Just put the low life on a C-17, open the tail gate and climb at a 60 degree angle over the Gulf of America.
I’m making this comment not to cherry-pick this one specific article or these specific comments. I’m attempting to give a specific current example of what everyday discourse and information looks like on mainstream right-wing news sources. This is simply one more instance of an ongoing and longstanding pattern.
This article and its comments are not a one-off. They are the norm.
If you (or anyone reading this) can stomach it, I paradoxically encourage you to spend some time in those places so that you can really feel it firsthand. What you will see:
Empathy is absent.
Name-calling, hatred, and a desire for revenge, are all lauded.
Spin and outright misinformation are front and center.
Information that could change minds is rejected outright.
Entire categories of people are treated as subhuman.
Calls for violence are common and frequent.
We have lost the propaganda war. Guantanamo Bay used to have cultural baggage on both sides of the aisle, but I guarantee you that now that Trump has officially weighed in on it, one side will support him, and by proxy, Gitmo. Eagerly and wholeheartedly. It’s how their whole system works, and it’s why we are where we are right now.
I hate that we’re here, and I don’t know what to do about it. I wish I could have hope that people’s better natures will prevail, but, given what I’ve been seeing for years now, I simply don’t see a way that will happen.
This is a wonderful and well researched comment I just want to add, the comments are not so different on the local news posts of Facebook. The calls for violence might get censored by the system,...
This is a wonderful and well researched comment
I just want to add, the comments are not so different on the local news posts of Facebook. The calls for violence might get censored by the system, but not always. And anyone who disagrees is also derided. It's not just right wing, extremist news, it's very broad.
And as much as many have disconnected from Facebook, if the standard of discourse for news articles there is equivalent to that of OAN, it's the millions of people that have not quit that are being sucked into the no-empathy "fuck you" mindset.
I don't know how to fix the lack of empathy at the heart of this. Maybe walking them through whatever horrors are unleashed on the vulnerable after they finally end, the way that was done with the German people? But that's not a solution to stopping it.
I am reminded that the invention of the printing press led to chaos in communication for a couple of hundred years. The printing press led to antisemitic pamphlets sparking pogroms and witch...
I am reminded that the invention of the printing press led to chaos in communication for a couple of hundred years. The printing press led to antisemitic pamphlets sparking pogroms and witch accusations leading to witch burnings.
In the US, This side of the right wing has been present as long as I can remember but it was kept under wraps. The John Birch Society had their letters but the wider audience watched tame nightly news.
For whatever reason, our leaders of tech/ social media companies are fanning the flames of ignorance and hate and division.
I mean, why wouldn’t they fan those flames? Enragement drives engagement, and if they can convince a couple million rubes to also vote for policies that will enrich those companies and their...
I mean, why wouldn’t they fan those flames? Enragement drives engagement, and if they can convince a couple million rubes to also vote for policies that will enrich those companies and their billionaires even more, well that’s a win-win for the tech oligarchs.
I think you're right that there are many millions who will not change their minds. But we need to know how many millions to know how an election will turn out, and that's difficult to predict. The...
I think you're right that there are many millions who will not change their minds. But we need to know how many millions to know how an election will turn out, and that's difficult to predict. The Internet research you're doing isn't quantitative and it's far from a random sample - many low-information voters don't read or write about politics online. I suspect that people who aren't on social media and don't read or watch the news have little idea what Trump is doing as of yet.
So I don't see it as reason to abandon hope for change. It's too soon to know what issues will matter in the next election, but popularity swings do happen.
It is for this reason that I am specifically on the lookout for news about things Trump orders or enacts that will hurt or frustrate or annoy Trump supporters and try to boost that news. I hate...
It is for this reason that I am specifically on the lookout for news about things Trump orders or enacts that will hurt or frustrate or annoy Trump supporters and try to boost that news. I hate Trump's cruelty and xenophobia but his fans like it and they are the ones who we need to influence.
Trump is good at publicity but bad at planning and understanding policy. He makes mistakes and is callous when reacting to how they impact people.
Musk is good at ideas but terrible about political optics.
My hope is that we can chip away at this coalition like Andy Dufresne in Shawshank Redemption dug his tunnel. We only need to discourage enough MAGA for democrats to win by a fraction.
I think you're right to be cynical about the most extreme Trump supporters. But his base alone didn't win him the election. 50% of American voters don't want to murder immigrants. Granted the...
I think you're right to be cynical about the most extreme Trump supporters. But his base alone didn't win him the election. 50% of American voters don't want to murder immigrants.
Granted the percentage that do (or claim to on the internet) is no doubt shockingly high, but I don't believe it's 50%.
By the same token, Trump's base alone can't be counted on to deliver republicans the midterms. We don't have to put our hopes in people's better natures for this administration to lose full control of the government. We just need enough of them to be unsatisfied with the administration over the next two years. Which will be likely if they keep doing insane things alongside continued economic challenges. Not to mention the upcoming shameless giveaways to the rich.
Given this country's history with race and racism, you may be underestimating just how many "proud Americans" would support genocide. The country is, after all, founded on it, and continues to...
Given this country's history with race and racism, you may be underestimating just how many "proud Americans" would support genocide. The country is, after all, founded on it, and continues to enact it to this day.
I'd add that most of the modern world is founded on colonialism and genocide. It's the history of the post agricultural human race, rather than specifically American history. So you're not wrong...
I'd add that most of the modern world is founded on colonialism and genocide. It's the history of the post agricultural human race, rather than specifically American history.
So you're not wrong that people can get behind, or at least tolerate, awful shit. But still I don't think it's 50% of American voters.
Maybe it's optimistic to hope for a good outcome in two years, but I don't think it's delusionally optimistic. At least not yet.
Its still so weird to me that so many people didn’t vote simply because they forgot how important it is to keep trump out of office. They had to be kids right? Like they were just too young to...
Its still so weird to me that so many people didn’t vote simply because they forgot how important it is to keep trump out of office.
They had to be kids right? Like they were just too young to really witness trumps last term? I think I remember reading that a lot of gen z voted for trump.
I thought this was very illuminating about where the kids are at. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/01/23/gen-z-republican-polling/ There is a significant shift away from the democrats....
I thought this was very illuminating about where the kids are at.
There is a significant shift away from the democrats. That’s accompanied by a small shift to the republicans (especially among white kids) but an even greater shift towards identifying as independent.
What’s really interesting is the question about being liberal or conservative. The number of teens who identify as liberal has plummeted. They are in the same range as the silent generation.
You’re giving people too much credit. At best, they have no idea any of it is happening because their only news source is twitter, at worst they support all of it. The party basically has two...
You’re giving people too much credit.
At best, they have no idea any of it is happening because their only news source is twitter, at worst they support all of it.
The party basically has two kinds of supporters, those that voted against the democrats because communism is evil and those that voted for Trump because they actually want all of the things he’s doing.
If they do this, it will also draw international ire. Although I guess one should doubt how much that would affect anything.. so not holding my breath because it seems like nearly the whole world...
If they do this, it will also draw international ire.
Although I guess one should doubt how much that would affect anything.. so not holding my breath because it seems like nearly the whole world just appeases the US no matter what they do. Be it drone killings run amok, the financial crisis and countless other things that they get away with on account of being a superpower.
People in 24 hours moved on to “did DEI cause a plane crash?” It’s less slip through the torrent, more cram it in. For this specific case, I think the media is reluctant to cover it due to a lack...
People in 24 hours moved on to “did DEI cause a plane crash?” It’s less slip through the torrent, more cram it in. For this specific case, I think the media is reluctant to cover it due to a lack of visuals.
I agree with @drannex, putting "migrant housing" in the title is such egregious whitewashing that I genuinely think it qualifies as misinformation (whether this was the original article title or not).
I agree with @drannex, putting "migrant housing" in the title is such egregious whitewashing that I genuinely think it qualifies as misinformation (whether this was the original article title or not).
I agree. The memo, as quoted in the same article, uses "detention space". I think it would be appropriate to use that. And I think it's important to read the phrase high-priority criminal aliens...
I agree. The memo, as quoted in the same article, uses "detention space". I think it would be appropriate to use that.
"I hereby direct the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of Homeland Security to take all appropriate actions to expand the Migrant Operations Center at Naval Station Guantanamo Bay to full capacity to provide additional detention space for high-priority criminal aliens unlawfully present in the United States," the memo to the Department of Homeland Security and the Defense Department says.
And I think it's important to read the phrase high-priority criminal aliens with Laken Riley and the Alien Enemies acts fresh in mind.
I think it's probably more of users using the "Exemplary" label and "Malice" labels as upvotes and downvotes. (which can be taken away, from what I've seen). I'm guessing that close to 100% of the...
I think it's probably more of users using the "Exemplary" label and "Malice" labels as upvotes and downvotes. (which can be taken away, from what I've seen). I'm guessing that close to 100% of the users on this site agree that this is essentially a concentration camp situation and that concentration camps are bad.
I can definitely see the malice labels being misused, but isn't exemplary more subjective? Or did I miss guidelines somewhere? There were certainly some well written comments on there. As for the...
I can definitely see the malice labels being misused, but isn't exemplary more subjective? Or did I miss guidelines somewhere? There were certainly some well written comments on there.
As for the users, I would agree, and I think it was mainly one user that disagreed with that assessment of the situation. But I suppose that's just human nature - one person can always derail conversations like that. At the end of the day, I'd still rather the site admins be a little cautious to prevent Tildes from going towards toxicity and lazy comments like most social media sites.
-shrug- Tildes only has one admin so it's at his discretion! I can only guess. I've definitely seen some comments labelled exemplary that definitely were labelled that way because it's a "super...
-shrug- Tildes only has one admin so it's at his discretion! I can only guess. I've definitely seen some comments labelled exemplary that definitely were labelled that way because it's a "super like", I've reported some (edit: to be clear, in other threads), and I've definitely seen some get removed. I imagine since there's a justification needed to give an exemplary label, it's less ambiguous.
The exemplary tag can only be applied once every 8 hours, and requires you to write an anonymous message to the author thanking them for their comment. Similarly, applying the malice tag requires a message explaining why the comment is malicious.
To be clear, that's not a "justification" it's a "thanks" My exemplary comments are always because I think the point made was excellent or the comment was very in depth, etc. Often those are...
To be clear, that's not a "justification" it's a "thanks"
My exemplary comments are always because I think the point made was excellent or the comment was very in depth, etc. Often those are comments that agree with me, but not always.
I literally just read that in the docs as I was trying to read more about it myself, thanks for the clarification! Either way I think we're getting super off topic so please label me accordingly :)
I literally just read that in the docs as I was trying to read more about it myself, thanks for the clarification! Either way I think we're getting super off topic so please label me accordingly :)
We lost at least one user for being overly passionate/partisan about Gaza. Heated language is risky to longevity here in ways that are somewhat opaque.
We lost at least one user for being overly passionate/partisan about Gaza. Heated language is risky to longevity here in ways that are somewhat opaque.
"Migrant housing", the fascist fucker is opening a concentration camp at a renowned constitutional blacksite, explicitly made for state sanctioned torture. Yes, the last thread was deleted, but I...
"Migrant housing", the fascist fucker is opening a concentration camp at a renowned constitutional blacksite, explicitly made for state sanctioned torture.
Yes, the last thread was deleted, but I am not going to stand for this handwaving.
This is some pretty wild stuff. Modern day concentration camps being set up outside the rule of law. Clearly these 30,000 people are not going to have any meaningful access to lawyers or civilian courts. From the sound of it, it's being set up for indefinite detention too.
The previous thread on this was deleted. So I will choose my words carefully
Invoking the Alien Enemies Act has not been done since WWII when it was invoked against Japanese Americans. It does not let them target criminals, it lets them target people for their identities and it absolutely lets them target citizens, as evidenced by the past.
This is not normal, this is not OK, please do the things you can to oppose this.
As far as I know, the legal authority FDR used to detain and intern ~150,000 Japanese Americans has never been explicitly overturned by the Supreme Court nor Congress, so this may be something Trump can simply decide to do. I'm extremely uncertain whether the Court would rule against Trump here and strike down that precedent from WWII.
It's possible they would overturn the precedent since, in 2018, Chief Justice John Roberts wrote:
The legal legacy is a bit complicated per Wikipedia.
It should not be legal. And yet.
But similarly, due process is supposed to extend to everyone in the US, Guantanamo's use as a prison was predicated on them not being citizens and being prisoners, but not technically prisoners of war, creating a legal black hole that they were dropped into and left for years. Revoking birthright citizenship, on the argument that undocumented immigrants are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US... pokes the holes that Laken-Riley widened and that this would tear open.
Better to do everything we cant to stop it now, before we have to hope the Supreme Court will make a reasonable ruling.
ETA: IIRC there's been 1-2 citizens held at Guantanamo (the prison) before. Couldn't say about the "caught you while you were trying to get to the US" detention center.
Guantanamo is not exactly a legal black hole anymore, as a result of this lawsuit, but what’s interesting is that it was only a 5-4 decision. With the court’s disinterest in precedent and a supermajority of conservatives, we may well see Guantanamo returned to its former status of being beyond the reach of the courts.
I do want to note there's a migrant holding center there already separate from the prison.
As far as I'm aware it's to deflect people coming by sea before they set foot on the US and may claim asylum, etc. I don't want to presume the prison is the intended destination, or whether they plan to use the footprint of either and rebuild.
But I think the evocation of Guantanamo was also symbolic and thus intended to imply a "black hole" for "bad people "
Combined with Laken Riley it's pretty much "we'll make anyone we want disappear"
I'd love any advice or resources. Feeling pretty powerless right now.
Please check this thread: https://tildes.net/~society/1lm7/ten_ideas_to_oppose_the_donald_trump_us_administration
Some thoughts based on this: calling your reps, donating to orgs that will challenge this, donating or volunteering with orgs in your community that are helping folks, learning your rights and ensuring you are doing what you can to protect folks in your community.
Quoting myself from the previous thread:
WWLD?
Don't get yourself banned
@Deimos what are the rules on endorsing Luigi Mangione and/or his actions?
Who's L?
What would Luigi do?
(I'm assuming)
Luigi 😅
Setting aside any moral arguments about political violence, this wouldn't solve the underlying issue. Trump has a very good approval rating (49% approve). 52% of Americans now say the country is going in the right direction.
Oh I know. The only real option is to survive four years, and hope he doesn't figure out a way to become president for life + store his brain in a jar.
I saw at least part of that thread and understand why it got heated. These are serious harms being readied, and a very dark path we are collectively walking down.
Just to give an example that this has been done before in recent years, AZ's prior elected sheriff, Joe Arapio, built a "tent city" that he called a concentration camp on multiple occasions.
(I don't like how that article starts, but it states the facts I'm sharing after the intro.)
Good lord that intro. I know it's only tangential to your point but I feel compelled to respond.
A worse insult would be to have not learned anything from them.
AZ Central is usually a pretty good news outlet. But apparently that specific author now only writes opinion pieces, and (in my opinion) they all seem a bit heavy on provoking emotion (many in clickbait style).
If there is a silver lining to the insanity that is the last week or so, it's that the new administration is hopefully coming on too strong, too fast, and will alienate a significant part of their public support.
Putting aside that sending migrants to an offshore camp to be dealt with extralegally is wrong on many levels and straight up evil... Guantanamo has a bad name on both sides of the aisle, seems like a terrible PR move at a time when things are sketchy for them (grocery prices, bird flu, medicare, etc..)
I guess the strategy is shock, awe and see how much manages to slip through amid the torrent. They don't have 4 years after all, just 2 until the midterms.
I hate to be a wet blanket, but I think the time for holding out hope that something like this will change hearts and minds, especially on the other side of the aisle, has long past.
Here’s an example of why I say that. This is an archive link of OAN’s coverage of the topic (because I don’t want to drive traffic to the actual site).
The only thing in the article that breaks rank is the inclusion of the Cuban President’s response:
How do people in the comments feel about that?
I’m going to collapse the next one, as it contains an explicit call for violence (which, as I’ll soon get to, is a running theme).
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When presented with potentially conflicting information, we can see commenters reject it, resort to whataboutism as a dodge, and escalate calls for violence.
The first two are concerning enough, but it’s the third that’s genuinely terrifying. That commenter is also far from alone. There aren’t very many comments on this news article but many of them are calls for violence:
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The commenters also endorse utilizing Gitmo for political revenge:
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There is some dissent though! One commenter is explicitly critical of the plan:
While one actually meaningfully considers the logistics required to implement this:
Thoughtful, right?
Only, that’s not the full comment. Here’s their last sentence:
comment (part 2)
For a long time I’ve been concerned about the damages of the right wing media ecosystem on our country.
I’m making this comment not to cherry-pick this one specific article or these specific comments. I’m attempting to give a specific current example of what everyday discourse and information looks like on mainstream right-wing news sources. This is simply one more instance of an ongoing and longstanding pattern.
This article and its comments are not a one-off. They are the norm.
If you (or anyone reading this) can stomach it, I paradoxically encourage you to spend some time in those places so that you can really feel it firsthand. What you will see:
We have lost the propaganda war. Guantanamo Bay used to have cultural baggage on both sides of the aisle, but I guarantee you that now that Trump has officially weighed in on it, one side will support him, and by proxy, Gitmo. Eagerly and wholeheartedly. It’s how their whole system works, and it’s why we are where we are right now.
I hate that we’re here, and I don’t know what to do about it. I wish I could have hope that people’s better natures will prevail, but, given what I’ve been seeing for years now, I simply don’t see a way that will happen.
This is a wonderful and well researched comment
I just want to add, the comments are not so different on the local news posts of Facebook. The calls for violence might get censored by the system, but not always. And anyone who disagrees is also derided. It's not just right wing, extremist news, it's very broad.
And as much as many have disconnected from Facebook, if the standard of discourse for news articles there is equivalent to that of OAN, it's the millions of people that have not quit that are being sucked into the no-empathy "fuck you" mindset.
I don't know how to fix the lack of empathy at the heart of this. Maybe walking them through whatever horrors are unleashed on the vulnerable after they finally end, the way that was done with the German people? But that's not a solution to stopping it.
I am reminded that the invention of the printing press led to chaos in communication for a couple of hundred years. The printing press led to antisemitic pamphlets sparking pogroms and witch accusations leading to witch burnings.
In the US, This side of the right wing has been present as long as I can remember but it was kept under wraps. The John Birch Society had their letters but the wider audience watched tame nightly news.
For whatever reason, our leaders of tech/ social media companies are fanning the flames of ignorance and hate and division.
I mean, why wouldn’t they fan those flames? Enragement drives engagement, and if they can convince a couple million rubes to also vote for policies that will enrich those companies and their billionaires even more, well that’s a win-win for the tech oligarchs.
They might learn the hard way why this is a bad idea. I don't wish for that. We ordinary people would be hurt before they would be.
They would burn it all to be kings of the ashes.
I think you're right that there are many millions who will not change their minds. But we need to know how many millions to know how an election will turn out, and that's difficult to predict. The Internet research you're doing isn't quantitative and it's far from a random sample - many low-information voters don't read or write about politics online. I suspect that people who aren't on social media and don't read or watch the news have little idea what Trump is doing as of yet.
So I don't see it as reason to abandon hope for change. It's too soon to know what issues will matter in the next election, but popularity swings do happen.
It is for this reason that I am specifically on the lookout for news about things Trump orders or enacts that will hurt or frustrate or annoy Trump supporters and try to boost that news. I hate Trump's cruelty and xenophobia but his fans like it and they are the ones who we need to influence.
Trump is good at publicity but bad at planning and understanding policy. He makes mistakes and is callous when reacting to how they impact people.
Musk is good at ideas but terrible about political optics.
My hope is that we can chip away at this coalition like Andy Dufresne in Shawshank Redemption dug his tunnel. We only need to discourage enough MAGA for democrats to win by a fraction.
I think you're right to be cynical about the most extreme Trump supporters. But his base alone didn't win him the election. 50% of American voters don't want to murder immigrants.
Granted the percentage that do (or claim to on the internet) is no doubt shockingly high, but I don't believe it's 50%.
By the same token, Trump's base alone can't be counted on to deliver republicans the midterms. We don't have to put our hopes in people's better natures for this administration to lose full control of the government. We just need enough of them to be unsatisfied with the administration over the next two years. Which will be likely if they keep doing insane things alongside continued economic challenges. Not to mention the upcoming shameless giveaways to the rich.
Given this country's history with race and racism, you may be underestimating just how many "proud Americans" would support genocide. The country is, after all, founded on it, and continues to enact it to this day.
I'd add that most of the modern world is founded on colonialism and genocide. It's the history of the post agricultural human race, rather than specifically American history.
So you're not wrong that people can get behind, or at least tolerate, awful shit. But still I don't think it's 50% of American voters.
Maybe it's optimistic to hope for a good outcome in two years, but I don't think it's delusionally optimistic. At least not yet.
Its still so weird to me that so many people didn’t vote simply because they forgot how important it is to keep trump out of office.
They had to be kids right? Like they were just too young to really witness trumps last term? I think I remember reading that a lot of gen z voted for trump.
I thought this was very illuminating about where the kids are at.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/01/23/gen-z-republican-polling/
There is a significant shift away from the democrats. That’s accompanied by a small shift to the republicans (especially among white kids) but an even greater shift towards identifying as independent.
What’s really interesting is the question about being liberal or conservative. The number of teens who identify as liberal has plummeted. They are in the same range as the silent generation.
I hope you're right. I'd really love to be wrong on this.
That last guy is literally advocating for Pinochet style death flights.
Idiots.
You’re giving people too much credit.
At best, they have no idea any of it is happening because their only news source is twitter, at worst they support all of it.
The party basically has two kinds of supporters, those that voted against the democrats because communism is evil and those that voted for Trump because they actually want all of the things he’s doing.
If they do this, it will also draw international ire.
Although I guess one should doubt how much that would affect anything.. so not holding my breath because it seems like nearly the whole world just appeases the US no matter what they do. Be it drone killings run amok, the financial crisis and countless other things that they get away with on account of being a superpower.
People in 24 hours moved on to “did DEI cause a plane crash?” It’s less slip through the torrent, more cram it in. For this specific case, I think the media is reluctant to cover it due to a lack of visuals.
I agree with @drannex, putting "migrant housing" in the title is such egregious whitewashing that I genuinely think it qualifies as misinformation (whether this was the original article title or not).
I agree. The memo, as quoted in the same article, uses "detention space". I think it would be appropriate to use that.
And I think it's important to read the phrase high-priority criminal aliens with Laken Riley and the Alien Enemies acts fresh in mind.
We're apparently not allowed to discuss it, at risk of the thread being deleted and users losing "tools" (being banned?).
I think it's probably more of users using the "Exemplary" label and "Malice" labels as upvotes and downvotes. (which can be taken away, from what I've seen). I'm guessing that close to 100% of the users on this site agree that this is essentially a concentration camp situation and that concentration camps are bad.
I can definitely see the malice labels being misused, but isn't exemplary more subjective? Or did I miss guidelines somewhere? There were certainly some well written comments on there.
As for the users, I would agree, and I think it was mainly one user that disagreed with that assessment of the situation. But I suppose that's just human nature - one person can always derail conversations like that. At the end of the day, I'd still rather the site admins be a little cautious to prevent Tildes from going towards toxicity and lazy comments like most social media sites.
-shrug- Tildes only has one admin so it's at his discretion! I can only guess. I've definitely seen some comments labelled exemplary that definitely were labelled that way because it's a "super like", I've reported some (edit: to be clear, in other threads), and I've definitely seen some get removed. I imagine since there's a justification needed to give an exemplary label, it's less ambiguous.
from: https://tildes.net/~tildes/wiki/introduction
To be clear, that's not a "justification" it's a "thanks"
My exemplary comments are always because I think the point made was excellent or the comment was very in depth, etc. Often those are comments that agree with me, but not always.
I literally just read that in the docs as I was trying to read more about it myself, thanks for the clarification! Either way I think we're getting super off topic so please label me accordingly :)
We lost at least one user for being overly passionate/partisan about Gaza. Heated language is risky to longevity here in ways that are somewhat opaque.
I can understand that. It's a shame one person dedicated to being a pedant can get a whole thread nuked without notice.
"Migrant housing", the fascist fucker is opening a concentration camp at a renowned constitutional blacksite, explicitly made for state sanctioned torture.
Yes, the last thread was deleted, but I am not going to stand for this handwaving.