Bizarre to see multiple people who clearly didn't even read the article scoffing at this as if it's a nothing rant by a bunch of nobodies. These are elected governing officials of the governments...
Bizarre to see multiple people who clearly didn't even read the article scoffing at this as if it's a nothing rant by a bunch of nobodies. These are elected governing officials of the governments of Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland. They all already won elections with campaigns that explicitly say exit the UK. In a country where a non biding referendum led to the country leaving the EU not long ago. Really odd ignorance of reality on Tildes, of all places.
And then a specific comment saying Northern Ireland would be 'conquered' by Ireland? Really? Nice miss that the governing party of Northern Ireland is Sinn Fein, who are explicitly pushing for Irish reunification (and this is talked about... In the article).
I agree that this may not lead to better outcomes for the relative peoples involved overall but as an outsider looking in, it always seemed fair that if the English countryside got to drag the rest of the UK out of the EU, it's only fair that the other kingdoms get to UK-xit to go back to it if that's their wish.
Agreed. I don't blame folks for assuming this is actually a nothingburger – I expected the same, which is specifically why I read the article – but this isn't the kind of scenario I find to be...
Agreed. I don't blame folks for assuming this is actually a nothingburger – I expected the same, which is specifically why I read the article – but this isn't the kind of scenario I find to be meaningless. Even with independence unlikely for any of the countries much less all of them, the mere fact that they're all pushing for it at once is genuine news and silly to disregard.
Pro-independence first ministers will sign ‘memorandum of understanding’ at Cardiff summit and demand referendums
The leaders of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will gather on Monday to sign a deal designed to kick-start the break-up of the United Kingdom, The Telegraph can disclose.
At an unprecedented summit in Cardiff, the three first ministers will put pen to paper on a joint declaration demanding the right to hold independence referendums.
I'm glad to see the people get the opportunity to determine their own destinies. But maybe the UK has previously demonstrated how these kinds of referendums aren't necessarily the best? It just...
I'm glad to see the people get the opportunity to determine their own destinies. But maybe the UK has previously demonstrated how these kinds of referendums aren't necessarily the best? It just feels odd that you can have a referendum where one option is "keep things the way they are, including having more opportunities for this to change" and the other is "destroy the current system and never have an opportunity to go back."
I don't know how else you realistically resolve these questions, and every other option also relies on just making a decision at some arbitrary time, but a referendum just seems like the wrong way.
Let's hope they don't choose to leave for the wrong reasons...
Polls, and in one case an actual referendum, almost always show that the majority in those countries want their destinies to remain part of the UK. Especially so in Wales where independence has...
I'm glad to see the people get the opportunity to determine their own destinies.
Polls, and in one case an actual referendum, almost always show that the majority in those countries want their destinies to remain part of the UK. Especially so in Wales where independence has very low support. In parliamentary elections lots of people vote Plaid/SNP/Sinn Fein for reasons other than independence - up to and including actual fascists elsewhere on the ballot - and FPTP requires tactical voting.
Northern Ireland is very close though, but if that particular situation was easily resolved with a simple vote then there wouldn't have been decades of unrest both political and physical. Northern Ireland is a mess and won't stop being one just because Sinn Fein signed a piece of paper. I'm not defending British colonialism, but there's a lot of people in Northern Ireland who are happy to be UK citizens and want to continue being such.
Let's hope they don't choose to leave for the wrong reasons...
I'm fairly sure none of them can choose to leave. They can ask Westminster for a referendum and Westminster will say no. This is just performative politicking from the leaders of three pro-independence parties, nothing more.
From the article: [...] I wouldn't put it down as a guarantee that a referendum would be refused. Will that mean any of them actually leave? Probably not, but I think the simple fact that it isn't...
They can ask Westminster for a referendum and Westminster will say no.
From the article:
Sources told The Telegraph the aim was to pile more pressure on Mr Burnham, following his statement at Prime Minister’s Questions on Wednesday that another Scottish independence referendum could be held if public opinion backed one.
[...]
Under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, there is a potential pathway for an Irish reunification poll to be held. It states that a referendum should be staged if it “appears likely” that a majority of people in Northern Ireland would vote to leave the UK.
I wouldn't put it down as a guarantee that a referendum would be refused. Will that mean any of them actually leave? Probably not, but I think the simple fact that it isn't "absolutely not, no" is worth discussion itself.
It's also worth noting that Brexit barely skated by and, as I recall, was broadly regretted, but it still happened anyways.
In a way, this may be the closest thing they have to undoing that referendum. UK has been integrated into the EU since the seventies, the lifetime of many of its population. Maybe rejoining that...
In a way, this may be the closest thing they have to undoing that referendum. UK has been integrated into the EU since the seventies, the lifetime of many of its population. Maybe rejoining that is closer to the familiar status quo than being chained to the post-brexit reality of Reform/Restore/whoever else.
This is just noise. It's like when some rando Republican congressmen from Texas propose secession. Scotland is the only one where exiting the union is remotely possible. Wales is too integrated...
This is just noise. It's like when some rando Republican congressmen from Texas propose secession. Scotland is the only one where exiting the union is remotely possible. Wales is too integrated with England, and Northern Ireland will immediately be conquered by Ireland the moment it leaves the union, that idea is laughable lol.
"Conquered" implies military action. There is an agreed upon legal process for how unification of Ireland would happen and it involves referenda being held in both Northern Ireland and the Republic.
"Conquered" implies military action. There is an agreed upon legal process for how unification of Ireland would happen and it involves referenda being held in both Northern Ireland and the Republic.
And when the referendum doesn't pass in NI, the IRA will make it pass. Without the backing of British security services and police, NI will get turned into rubble until they submit.
And when the referendum doesn't pass in NI, the IRA will make it pass. Without the backing of British security services and police, NI will get turned into rubble until they submit.
You have a lot more confidence in the modern IRA's resources and competence than most. In reality even if they could do that, it wouldn't serve their interests as well as just waiting for the...
You have a lot more confidence in the modern IRA's resources and competence than most.
In reality even if they could do that, it wouldn't serve their interests as well as just waiting for the clear transparent referendum win. It's been looking quite likely since brexit that the winds are blowing that way in the long term and it's more a matter of patiently awaiting the right moment to call the vote.
That's a pretty wild take to imply that an EU member would initiate military action against what would legally still be UK territory and thus NATO territory. These aren't random congress members,...
That's a pretty wild take to imply that an EU member would initiate military action against what would legally still be UK territory and thus NATO territory. These aren't random congress members, these people are actually in government.
Bizarre to see multiple people who clearly didn't even read the article scoffing at this as if it's a nothing rant by a bunch of nobodies. These are elected governing officials of the governments of Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland. They all already won elections with campaigns that explicitly say exit the UK. In a country where a non biding referendum led to the country leaving the EU not long ago. Really odd ignorance of reality on Tildes, of all places.
And then a specific comment saying Northern Ireland would be 'conquered' by Ireland? Really? Nice miss that the governing party of Northern Ireland is Sinn Fein, who are explicitly pushing for Irish reunification (and this is talked about... In the article).
I agree that this may not lead to better outcomes for the relative peoples involved overall but as an outsider looking in, it always seemed fair that if the English countryside got to drag the rest of the UK out of the EU, it's only fair that the other kingdoms get to UK-xit to go back to it if that's their wish.
Agreed. I don't blame folks for assuming this is actually a nothingburger – I expected the same, which is specifically why I read the article – but this isn't the kind of scenario I find to be meaningless. Even with independence unlikely for any of the countries much less all of them, the mere fact that they're all pushing for it at once is genuine news and silly to disregard.
I'm glad to see the people get the opportunity to determine their own destinies. But maybe the UK has previously demonstrated how these kinds of referendums aren't necessarily the best? It just feels odd that you can have a referendum where one option is "keep things the way they are, including having more opportunities for this to change" and the other is "destroy the current system and never have an opportunity to go back."
I don't know how else you realistically resolve these questions, and every other option also relies on just making a decision at some arbitrary time, but a referendum just seems like the wrong way.
Let's hope they don't choose to leave for the wrong reasons...
Polls, and in one case an actual referendum, almost always show that the majority in those countries want their destinies to remain part of the UK. Especially so in Wales where independence has very low support. In parliamentary elections lots of people vote Plaid/SNP/Sinn Fein for reasons other than independence - up to and including actual fascists elsewhere on the ballot - and FPTP requires tactical voting.
Northern Ireland is very close though, but if that particular situation was easily resolved with a simple vote then there wouldn't have been decades of unrest both political and physical. Northern Ireland is a mess and won't stop being one just because Sinn Fein signed a piece of paper. I'm not defending British colonialism, but there's a lot of people in Northern Ireland who are happy to be UK citizens and want to continue being such.
I'm fairly sure none of them can choose to leave. They can ask Westminster for a referendum and Westminster will say no. This is just performative politicking from the leaders of three pro-independence parties, nothing more.
From the article:
[...]
I wouldn't put it down as a guarantee that a referendum would be refused. Will that mean any of them actually leave? Probably not, but I think the simple fact that it isn't "absolutely not, no" is worth discussion itself.
It's also worth noting that Brexit barely skated by and, as I recall, was broadly regretted, but it still happened anyways.
In a way, this may be the closest thing they have to undoing that referendum. UK has been integrated into the EU since the seventies, the lifetime of many of its population. Maybe rejoining that is closer to the familiar status quo than being chained to the post-brexit reality of Reform/Restore/whoever else.
This is just noise. It's like when some rando Republican congressmen from Texas propose secession. Scotland is the only one where exiting the union is remotely possible. Wales is too integrated with England, and Northern Ireland will immediately be conquered by Ireland the moment it leaves the union, that idea is laughable lol.
"Conquered" implies military action. There is an agreed upon legal process for how unification of Ireland would happen and it involves referenda being held in both Northern Ireland and the Republic.
And when the referendum doesn't pass in NI, the IRA will make it pass. Without the backing of British security services and police, NI will get turned into rubble until they submit.
Does the IRA still exist as a paramilitary force?
You have a lot more confidence in the modern IRA's resources and competence than most.
In reality even if they could do that, it wouldn't serve their interests as well as just waiting for the clear transparent referendum win. It's been looking quite likely since brexit that the winds are blowing that way in the long term and it's more a matter of patiently awaiting the right moment to call the vote.
That's a pretty wild take to imply that an EU member would initiate military action against what would legally still be UK territory and thus NATO territory. These aren't random congress members, these people are actually in government.
Especially one with an army of 6000 people.
Especially when the only movement in northern Ireland seeking independence from the UK is the one that wants to reunify with Ireland anyway.