9 votes

The endgame of the Olympics: What if the Olympic Games never come back?

13 comments

  1. [9]
    NaraVara
    Link
    Yeah. I, personally, really like the Olympics as a thing but it's hard to justify in terms of the massive social and economic costs it imposes. In a big way much of the spirit of the Olympics has...

    Yeah. I, personally, really like the Olympics as a thing but it's hard to justify in terms of the massive social and economic costs it imposes. In a big way much of the spirit of the Olympics has also somewhat been lost as it got more formalized. What was intended to be friendly competition and camaraderie through sport turned into a nationalist dick-measuring contest ever since they let Hitler host them. Throughout the Cold War it just became a proxy for capitalism vs. communism.

    The virtue of amateurism is gone too, sometime around when we started brining professional athletes and major sponsorships in. Then there's the endemic corruption, the gymnast sex abuse scandal, and on and on. Something went rotten in what was, at its core, supposed to be a symbol of trans-national cooperation and solidarity.

    7 votes
    1. [8]
      moonbathers
      Link Parent
      I'm with you on the first paragraph, but disagree on the second depending on what you mean by the virtue of amateurism and bringing in professional athletes. Professional athletes didn't really...

      I'm with you on the first paragraph, but disagree on the second depending on what you mean by the virtue of amateurism and bringing in professional athletes. Professional athletes didn't really exist until the 20th century for the most part. The biggest offender I can think of in regards to professional athletes "ruining" the competition is basketball, and even there there are countries starting to give the United States a run for its money (Serbia, Spain, Australia, Argentina, etc.). I like having professional athletes compete because I like seeing the very best of what humanity is capable of, although to be fair that's not entirely what the Olympics are about and you can see that elsewhere.

      5 votes
      1. [7]
        NaraVara
        Link Parent
        The problem there is that it basically turns all small or poor countries into irrelevancies. Countries with established olympic programs are able to take people out of the workforce and give them...

        I like having professional athletes compete because I like seeing the very best of what humanity is capable of, although to be fair that's not entirely what the Olympics are about and you can see that elsewhere.

        The problem there is that it basically turns all small or poor countries into irrelevancies. Countries with established olympic programs are able to take people out of the workforce and give them state of the art coaching, nutrition, equipment, etc. at a level that most of the developing world simply can't. What ends up happening is that serious athletes from those countries just end up moving to the US or Canada or something to access the resources instead of being able to represent where they came from. It turns the thing into a proxy for economic power instead of any kind of celebration of sport.

        4 votes
        1. [4]
          imperialismus
          Link Parent
          It should be noted that professional sports exists because amateur sports were a proxy for economic power. The working class demanded entry, which necessitated compensation because they couldn't...

          It should be noted that professional sports exists because amateur sports were a proxy for economic power. The working class demanded entry, which necessitated compensation because they couldn't afford to devote their time to unpaid training. Meanwhile, the upper classes extolled the virtues of amateurism because it protected them from having to compete with the ruffians.

          No matter how you organize it, there will always be haves and have-nots. It's difficult to imagine that the world of sports would be filled with moonlighting plumbers and accountants and farmers if the Olympics barred professionals from entry.

          There are good examples of poor countries doing very well, like Kenyan and Ethiopian runners, Romanian gymnasts, Bulgarian weightlifters or Brazilian footballers. Small or poor countries can't compete in the same range of sports that a country like the US can, but they can certainly find a successful niche. I think a return to amateurism would be a well-intentioned but complete failure. It wouldn't wipe out the effects of economics, but it would likely degrade the performance and therefore also lose audience enthusiasm.

          4 votes
          1. [3]
            NaraVara
            Link Parent
            Do you have some citation for this account of "the working class demanded entry? It sounds very much like a "just so" story. It seems much more likely that people like Horatio Alger stories and...

            The working class demanded entry, which necessitated compensation because they couldn't afford to devote their time to unpaid training.

            Do you have some citation for this account of "the working class demanded entry? It sounds very much like a "just so" story. It seems much more likely that people like Horatio Alger stories and talent scouts go looking for people who can sell that story. We have athletics programs in public schools and sponsored amateur leagues for this reason.

            It's difficult to imagine that the world of sports would be filled with moonlighting plumbers and accountants and farmers if the Olympics barred professionals from entry.

            There are plenty of amateur and social sports leagues the world over that are just this.

            but it would likely degrade the performance and therefore also lose audience enthusiasm.

            I have yet to see any persuasive evidence for some objective caliber of performance being tied to overall audience enthusiasm. Performance relative to the competitive field matters for sure, but if the tide is lower in general I don't see why it would matter.

            There are good examples of poor countries doing very well, like Kenyan and Ethiopian runners, Romanian gymnasts, Bulgarian weightlifters or Brazilian footballers.

            The reason they're runners and not any other part of the track-and-field world is because running can be trained with no equipment and no dedicated stadiums. You can do it barefoot if you have to. And even once sponsored, the most expensive thing is a pair of good shoes and plane tickets/accommodations to where you need to go. The Warsaw Pact countries poured tons of resources into their sports programs specifically to distract from their dismal economic metrics in the world's eye, so Romania and Bulgaria are poor examples. And Brazil isn't really a poor country so much as a very unequal one. It's strictly middle-income, and their football team is basically a national religion.

            1. [2]
              imperialismus
              Link Parent
              It's the consensus among sports historians that the professionalization of sports was driven by the working class, and that the amateur ideal was in large part a reaction by the middle and upper...

              Do you have some citation for this account of "the working class demanded entry? It sounds very much like a "just so" story. It seems much more likely that people like Horatio Alger stories and talent scouts go looking for people who can sell that story.

              It's the consensus among sports historians that the professionalization of sports was driven by the working class, and that the amateur ideal was in large part a reaction by the middle and upper classes to this infringement upon their cultural arena by the lower classes. Of course this is a very complex topic and I won't write an essay here. Here is one source, Whose Hegemony? The Origins of the Amateur Ethos in Nineteenth Century English Society:

              Though often advanced as an objective set of values, the amateur ethos was,
              of course, highly subjective and subjectivity rested heavily on social class,
              gender, nationality and even regional identity. In each case tension was
              present in the application of the amateur ethos to the administration of sport.
              In its most rarified form amateurism was assumed by English Gentlemen to
              be the particular preservc of English Gentlemen.8 In some instances, as in the
              early rules of the Amateur Athletic Association and the Amateur Rowing
              Association, exclusive class formulations were explicit.9 However, as one
              continually confronts in the attempt to comprehend English society, the
              obvious presence, and contemporaries’ awareness of, class does not necessarily
              facilitate a precise analysis of that phenomenon. Ubiquitous but elusive, easily sensed but defiant of definition or firm categorization, the concept of class is a
              tool essential to the comprehension of English society yet dificult to hone to
              efkctive usage. Such a problematic has impacted the efforts of historians
              seeking to relate the nineteenth-century rise of the code of amateurism to the
              class relationships prevailing in English society at that time. Nevertheless, few
              historians would now support the argument that amateurism was class
              neutral. ‘For all the claims that it was a rejection of financial gains from sport,
              it was much more than that, it was an assertion of the immutability of the class
              systeni.’10 Similarly, at the local level, ‘The new world of amateur sport
              became esclusive and emphasized the strength of class discrimination.’ (...)

              Why did members of the professions seek to distance themselves from sporting
              professionals and exclude such athletes from competition under the aegis of
              the then recently established sporting authorities? Most simply, the gentlemen
              of the professions did not wish to compete with professional athletes from the
              lower cIasses, whether from fear of defeat or aversion to physical contact.
              There was among the English middle class an ‘ever-present revulsion of direct
              physical contact with the lower classes and this led them to, ‘keep as far away
              from the working class as possible’.” Both Cunningham and Lowerson
              recognize a direct connection between this physical aversion and amateur
              exclusiveness.3

              Encyclopedia Britannica on the professionalization of association football:

              Leading clubs, notably those in Lancashire, started charging admission to spectators as early as the 1870s and so, despite the FA’s amateurism rule, were in a position to pay illicit wages to attract highly skilled working-class players, many of them hailing from Scotland. Working-class players and northern English clubs sought a professional system that would provide, in part, some financial reward to cover their “broken time” (time lost from their other work) and the risk of injury. The FA remained staunchly elitist in sustaining a policy of amateurism that protected upper and upper-middle class influence over the game.

              The issue of professionalism reached a crisis in England in 1884, when the FA expelled two clubs for using professional players. However, the payment of players had become so commonplace by then that the FA had little option but to sanction the practice a year later, despite initial attempts to restrict professionalism to reimbursements for broken time. The consequence was that northern clubs, with their large supporter bases and capacity to attract better players, came to prominence. As the influence of working-class players rose in football, the upper classes took refuge in other sports, notably cricket and rugby union.

              Many more papers and books on this exist.

              I have yet to see any persuasive evidence for some objective caliber of performance being tied to overall audience enthusiasm. Performance relative to the competitive field matters for sure, but if the tide is lower in general I don't see why it would matter.

              I don't think there is a correlation between objective performance and audience enthusiasm either, but I definitely think there is one between enthusiasm and relative performance. Unless you assume the complete extinction of professional sports, which is extremely unlikely to happen if for no other reason than there's too much money in it, then there will be a noticeable difference in performance between amateurs and professionals.

              The reason they're runners and not any other part of the track-and-field world is because running can be trained with no equipment and no dedicated stadiums. You can do it barefoot if you have to. And even once sponsored, the most expensive thing is a pair of good shoes and plane tickets/accommodations to where you need to go. The Warsaw Pact countries poured tons of resources into their sports programs specifically to distract from their dismal economic metrics in the world's eye, so Romania and Bulgaria are poor examples. And Brazil isn't really a poor country so much as a very unequal one. It's strictly middle-income, and their football team is basically a national religion.

              From this, I assume you could find fault with absolutely any example I give, for reasons that I think are reaching. You're moving the goalposts. We started with "small or poor countries are condemned to irrelevancy", now we're at "these countries may be successful and small and/or poor but they don't count because X, Y, Z". I don't think this is going to lead in any productive direction. I will point out that Brazil is relatively poor today (compared to other countries that are also good at football like England, Spain and Germany), but they were very poor 100 years ago, and that's how long they've been good.

              2 votes
              1. NaraVara
                Link Parent
                That's an interesting source. Thanks for sharing it. But the social and cultural context where this was happening sounds like a very different deal from what we're dealing with today. Modern...

                It's the consensus among sports historians that the professionalization of sports was driven by the working class, and that the amateur ideal was in large part a reaction by the middle and upper classes to this infringement upon their cultural arena by the lower classes.

                Leading clubs, notably those in Lancashire, started charging admission to spectators as early as the 1870s and so, despite the FA’s amateurism rule, were in a position to pay illicit wages to attract highly skilled working-class players, many of them hailing from Scotland. Working-class players and northern English clubs sought a professional system that would provide, in part, some financial reward to cover their “broken time” (time lost from their other work) and the risk of injury. The FA remained staunchly elitist in sustaining a policy of amateurism that protected upper and upper-middle class influence over the game.

                That's an interesting source. Thanks for sharing it. But the social and cultural context where this was happening sounds like a very different deal from what we're dealing with today. Modern professional sports is more like corporate/state industries for talent cultivation are designed to identify genetic-freaks for competition and push them through a psychologically, physically, and sometimes sexually abusive wurlitzer to get them competition ready before discarding them.

                We've gone well past the point where modern professional sports are the providence of a gentry class and well into the point where large pools of lower class people are being put through a meat-grinder, vanishingly small subset of them survive to come out the other side and get outsized rewards that they'll be able to hold onto if they're lucky. Surely there exists some middle point between "no remuneration at all" and "state/industrial sponsored chattel market" that gets closer to being a humane and socially beneficial institution.

                You're moving the goalposts. We started with "small or poor countries are condemned to irrelevancy", now we're at "these countries may be successful and small and/or poor but they don't count because X, Y, Z".

                In two of the cases you cited middle income, rather than poor, countries and the case of runners is literally the exception that proves the rule. So no it's not moving the goal posts so much as you not using taking the term as precisely as it was used. A country being poor 100 years ago also doesn't really impact commentary on the state of professional sports today.

        2. moonbathers
          Link Parent
          That's fair. I think larger countries and countries where a certain sport is really popular would still dominate just by virtue of having a larger pool of people to choose from, but it would make...

          That's fair. I think larger countries and countries where a certain sport is really popular would still dominate just by virtue of having a larger pool of people to choose from, but it would make that dominance less pronounced.

        3. Fal
          Link Parent
          In most cases, even if athletes train in the US or Canada, wouldn't they still represent their country in the Olympics, especially if they still have their original citizenship? I'm most familiar...

          serious athletes from those countries just end up moving to the US or Canada or something to access the resources instead of being able to represent where they came from

          In most cases, even if athletes train in the US or Canada, wouldn't they still represent their country in the Olympics, especially if they still have their original citizenship? I'm most familiar with fencing, where this is largely the case, but I imagine it's not too different in other sports though.

  2. [2]
    tunneljumper
    Link
    This article put into a words a lot of ideas that have been floating around in my head for awhile now -- mainly, why should I support low-income family displacement (favelas in Brazil) or imported...

    This article put into a words a lot of ideas that have been floating around in my head for awhile now -- mainly, why should I support low-income family displacement (favelas in Brazil) or imported slave labor (Yemen) under the guise of national pride?

    4 votes
    1. LukeZaz
      Link Parent
      I don't really follow the Olympics basically at all, so forgive any ignorance, but why the Olympics isn't just... not hosted at places that do that? I presume a chunk of countries would get pissed?

      I don't really follow the Olympics basically at all, so forgive any ignorance, but why the Olympics isn't just... not hosted at places that do that? I presume a chunk of countries would get pissed?

      1 vote
  3. bloup
    Link
    Kind of tangential, but something that always kind of bothered me about the Olympics is that, being held only every 4 years, if you are an athlete competing in a sport where performance typically...

    Kind of tangential, but something that always kind of bothered me about the Olympics is that, being held only every 4 years, if you are an athlete competing in a sport where performance typically peaks during a pretty narrow age range (like gymnastics), you can kind of get screwed over just by being born in the wrong year.

    I wonder if we could have "the Olympics" every year and with fewer social problems at that, if we didn't insist on literally the entire thing being held in one geographic location.

    4 votes
  4. Eabryt
    Link
    I'll be honest, I just skimmed the article so may have missed this being discussed, but I've always been a fan of choosing a single city/country/area and have the Olympics hosted there every time....

    I'll be honest, I just skimmed the article so may have missed this being discussed, but I've always been a fan of choosing a single city/country/area and have the Olympics hosted there every time. You could have two different ones so that there is a Summer and Winter area.

    This would allow them to actually take time to develop the areas and arenas, and they can host events in the other 3 years between Olympics.

    3 votes